Broom Force

[Goober]

I’m not a big believer yet in online learning. But after watching this young man’s YouTube channel. Have to say he really gets it. He keeps it simple and to the point. This Broom Force concept just does so many thing right. Without the massive How and Why’s. Highly recommend watching this. And everyone has a broom  

 

 

[Kenny B]

Monte's been my coach for 3 years now.  Here's great in person if you ever get the chance to go to one of his clinics.

[Goober]

My teaching pro had me swing a long putter cross handed just like this broom. Using a split grip as well. On video my motion would just happen. Such a simple concept. True the split grip is just a feel. Really shows why holding lag and such isn’t the right way anymore. It’s a low drag thru with rear shoulder higher. Really hard to mess this one up 

[RickyBobby_PR]

25 minutes ago, Goober said:

My teaching pro had me swing a long putter cross handed just like this broom. Using a split grip as well. On video my motion would just happen. Such a simple concept. True the split grip is just a feel. Really shows why holding lag and such isn’t the right way anymore. It’s a low drag thru with rear shoulder higher. Really hard to mess this one up 

Holding lag was never the right way. It’s talking heads on tv and bad instructors who spread that concept. 

[Goober]

I think somewhere down the line we got too entrenched with position look golf. Or we see the the pros do it so I have to do that mentality. Like this video states. It’s all reactionary. 
 

Monte isn’t my teacher. But if I ever went online learning. He would be the top of my list. Very easy to follow, and he backs it up with facts and science 

Edited September 28, 2022 by Goober

[RickyBobby_PR]

4 minutes ago, Goober said:

I think somewhere down the line we got too entrenched with position look golf. Or we see the the pros do it so I have to do that mentality. Like this video states. It’s all reactionary. 

Bad instructors and talking heads did this and many uninformed golfers listened and chased positions.

Positions are reactionary. Proper sequence will lead to the proper positions. Positions are important from an analysis view point. Good instructors use them to see what the golfer is doing. What the uninformed don’t realize is they are a position in time. It’s why looking at still photos without the proper context is a waste of time.

 

[Goober]

Spot on Again Ricky 

when I did this drill with a long putter with my instructor. Split grip 

 

it made one feel right elbow never gets stuck in your side. Body kinda clears on its own. And my right hand is super low to the ground. According to him is a proper sequence all built in for transition. No V swing like Monte says to avoid. Very wide to wide . Also a great feel for pitching and chipping. But one of those drills that you really have to work at 

 

that is the thing. Many want a quick fix for this game of golf. Just doesn’t happen that way 

[MacTourney]

2 hours ago, Goober said:

I think somewhere down the line we got too entrenched with position look golf. 

It's been an issue for sure and still is in some regard.  This video properly speaks to that line and seems to be a good video to wash with, rinse by, and repeat until fully appreciated- brooms not necessarily required. 

  

 

[tourstriker]

Monte is awesome. Spend time w him if you can. He’s on my short list of coaches I’d take a lesson from. 

[Goober]

Agree. I would like to see him in person as well. 
 

This Broom Force And NTC swing reminds me of Harvey Penicks magic move. Which is what even the AMG guys says happens in all great players swings 

[Wildthing]

On 9/28/2022 at 4:14 PM, Goober said:

I think somewhere down the line we got too entrenched with position look golf. Or we see the the pros do it so I have to do that mentality. Like this video states. It’s all reactionary. 
 

Monte isn’t my teacher. But if I ever went online learning. He would be the top of my list. Very easy to follow, and he backs it up with facts and science 

Are you able to point me to the facts and science that he's using to back up his opinions and is it contained in his instruction materials?

[Goober]

57 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

Are you able to point me to the facts and science that he's using to back up his opinions and is it contained in his instruction materials?

It’s as easy as moving a broom young man. Requires no thought or analytical breakdown. Really think he would be a good option for you 

[MacTourney]

Instructors are on a continuum between Professor Higgins and Cousin Eddie.   The practical end is where the butter finds the toast.     

[Wildthing]

7 hours ago, Goober said:

It’s as easy as moving a broom young man. Requires no thought or analytical breakdown. Really think he would be a good option for you 

I thought you knew the science behind his theories because you said "he backs it up with facts and science".  That broom force seems to promote a positive hand torque through impact which is not what is happening in a real full golf swing (ie. such as with the longer clubs like 5-iron to Driver). 

Edited October 8, 2022 by Wildthing

[Goober]

38 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

I thought you knew the science behind his theories because you said "he backs it up with facts and science".  That broom force seems to promote a positive hand torque through impact which is not what is happening in a real full golf swing (ie. such as with the longer clubs like 5-iron to Driver). 

Do you think when your sweeping a floor? I can break it down more for you if you like. Or I can keep it that simple 

I really think Monte tries to simplify the swing so everyone can get it.And he does one heck of a good job at that.What is wrong listening to someone who has the answers? Maybe you need to give it a try 

[Wildthing]

13 minutes ago, Goober said:

Do you think when your sweeping a floor? I can break it down more for you if you like. Or I can keep it that simple 

I really think Monte tries to simplify the swing so everyone can get it.And he does one heck of a good job at that.What is wrong listening to someone who has the answers? Maybe you need to give it a try 

I've got a better idea.

Why don't you take up his instruction, spend some money on his online (or one-one lessons), buy his instruction material and then report back to us on your handicap improvement in about a few years. While you're doing this, ask him for the facts and science that you say backs it all up.

[Goober]

45 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

I've got a better idea.

Why don't you take up his instruction, spend some money on his online (or one-one lessons), buy his instruction material and then report back to us on your handicap improvement in about a few years. While you're doing this, ask him for the facts and science that you say backs it all up.

Why can’t you appreciate the message? I’ve been working on very similar teachings for 5 months now. It’s really quite amazing how the body reacts naturally as Monte states. Why not give his Broom Force and NTC a try? Might free up your mind. 
 

Your studies are basically analyzing a tour pro as your study base.Where Monte is breaking this down for the amateur game. I think that is where your inability to appreciate what he offers seems to waver 

[cnosil]

26 minutes ago, Goober said:

Why can’t you appreciate the message? I’ve been working on very similar teachings for 5 months now. It’s really quite amazing how the body reacts naturally as Monte states. Why not give his Broom Force and NTC a try? Might free up your mind. 
 

Your studies are basically analyzing a tour pro as your study base.Where Monte is breaking this down for the amateur game. I think that is where your inability to appreciate what he offers seems to waver 

Not really my fight here but why can't you let him enjoy learning about the golf swing and the science behind it?   

[Goober]

38 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Not really my fight here but why can't you let him enjoy learning about the golf swing and the science behind it?   

Just trying to give him a suggestion that might help his game 

[cnosil]

10 minutes ago, Goober said:

Just trying to give him a suggestion that might help his game 

I know,  but if you read his posts, he wants to understand the science behind the full swing.  For some people buying new clubs adds to their enjoyment, some people want to practice all the time, some people just want to play and not really care about score, and others want to learn more about the theories of the swing...which doesn't necessarily translate to trying to improve their own game.    If someone wants lessons,  Monte is probably a good suggestion.  

[Wildthing]

1 hour ago, Goober said:

Why can’t you appreciate the message? I’ve been working on very similar teachings for 5 months now. It’s really quite amazing how the body reacts naturally as Monte states. Why not give his Broom Force and NTC a try? Might free up your mind. 
 

Your studies are basically analyzing a tour pro as your study base.Where Monte is breaking this down for the amateur game. I think that is where your inability to appreciate what he offers seems to waver 

If you can provide me the facts and science that prove it works, then I'd have the opportunity to appreciate what he's saying.

Facts: Do you have any statistics about the golfers under his tutelage that have improved their smash factors, their shot distance, dispersion and handicaps? Are there graphs showing how their performance increased over time using NTC and broom force drills? 

Science: What exactly did you mean that science backs it up or was that just an 'off the cuff' remark? 

[Wildthing]

Here's why I think the 'broom force' drill doesn't make sense (for the moment unless someone can provide me alternative proof). 

 "Three Dimensional Upper Limb Joint Kinetics of a Golf Swing with Measured Internal Grip Force"

 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7374515/

The participants in the study were "nine healthy male professional golfers registered by the Korea Golf Federation or the Korea Professional Golf Association." Each took five full swings with the instrumented driver.

Here are the graphs showing the forces and torques applied by each hand on this 'instrumented grip' 

Here is the reference coordinate system being used (and its orientation at impact).

1. Look at graph B and you will note at impact (ie. the right vertical grey line) that the left hand is applying approx zero force in the y direction

2. Look at graph F and you will note that at impact the right hand is applying a force in the -y direction .

I cannot understand how replicating the broom force drill can create forces as shown above on the grip at/through impact.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Wildthing

[GolfSpy_APH]

I'll admit I haven't read the full thread as of yet, but wouldn't broom force simply just be another form of resistance training? Much like baseball players putting weights on their bats. That's kinda the only benefits I could see. However a broom weighs a lot more too so chances are it could have some adverse effects in terms of positioning and timing.

Just my initial thoughts. After going through the video and such I'll follow up. 

[Wildthing]

It seems to be a replication of Lynn Blake's old video but he was using a mop.  He is a proponent of TGM and Homer Kelley's theories, but HK didn't have the information that golf scientists have discovered today regarding forward shaft bend approaching impact.  The physics says forward shaft bend means net negative in plane hand couple applied on the grip rather than positive hand couple (which is suggestive of the broom and mop drills).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzG7thLPnBU

If this 'broom force' and 'Mop-secret of the golf swing' are 'feel' exercises that somehow indirectly creates optimal 'timing/magnitude' of 'forces/torques' applied at the grip to create more compression and control (ie. less dispersion), then I'd like to see the evidence that backs it up.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Wildthing

[AndySP]

5 hours ago, Wildthing said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzG7thLPnBU

If this 'broom force' and 'Mop-secret of the golf swing' are 'feel' exercises that somehow indirectly creates optimal 'timing/magnitude' of 'forces/torques' applied at the grip to create more compression and control (ie. less dispersion), then I'd like to see the evidence that backs it up.

Broom force is a video series that has many different exercises and drills in it that are intended to help players understand how to create speed. The results are shown via swing speed and ball speed, and for plenty of people, they make gains. It’s not a conspiracy.

I don’t think you are being fair to Monte or the other posters on this forum. 
 

 

[Wildthing]

5 hours ago, AndySP said:

Broom force is a video series that has many different exercises and drills in it that are intended to help players understand how to create speed. The results are shown via swing speed and ball speed, and for plenty of people, they make gains. It’s not a conspiracy.

I don’t think you are being fair to Monte or the other posters on this forum. 
 

 

What do you mean that I am being unfair to Monte or other posters on this forum? 

I have shown you some scientific evidence that doesn't seem to support the hand release actions that the 'Broom Force' drill is demonstrating.  When you do the broom force drill do you feel as if the trail hand is pushing or pulling on the 'grip' end at/during impact?  If its pushing, then that is not the reality of what is happening in a full 'long club' golf swing.

Who mentioned a conspiracy? 

If plenty of people have made gains, how many didn't? If you've got the facts and evidence and science to back up its success, then feel free to publish it.

PS. 

Here's another separate research using an instrumented grip but it used only a single pro golfer when doing the measurements.

https://ojs.ub.uni-konstanz.de/cpa/article/view/6828/6125

"Force and Moment Exerted by Each Hand on an Instrumented Golf Club"

Look at graph (a) and it shows the right hand force is slightly in the -x direction (away from target) at impact, while the left hand is slightly in the +x direction (towards target) .

Again, this doesn't seem to replicate the hand forces that I would suspect are happening in the 'broom force' drill.

 

 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Wildthing

[AndySP]

2 hours ago, Wildthing said:

What do you mean that I am being unfair to Monte or other posters on this forum? 

 

You are being unfair to the forum members here because you aren’t reading the room. Monte is a coach, not a researcher. His goal is to say things and help people get to more functional movement patterns. No Turn Cast works for some people precisely because it’s backwards from how they think they are moving. Sometimes the “wrong” thing works because what you feel it’s what actually happens. Let us be. 
 

You’re being unfair to Monte because I don’t think you have watched broom force. The drill you seem to mention is not about the trail hand or grip forces at all, it’s about putting your arms in a different position before you turn, swing, try hard. 

[Wildthing]

1 hour ago, AndySP said:

You are being unfair to the forum members here because you aren’t reading the room. Monte is a coach, not a researcher. His goal is to say things and help people get to more functional movement patterns. No Turn Cast works for some people precisely because it’s backwards from how they think they are moving. Sometimes the “wrong” thing works because what you feel it’s what actually happens. Let us be. 
 

You’re being unfair to Monte because I don’t think you have watched broom force. The drill you seem to mention is not about the trail hand or grip forces at all, it’s about putting your arms in a different position before you turn, swing, try hard. 

All sounds pretty vague to me but if it's something that works for some people (ie. yourself) then go ahead but that doesn't mean I shouldn't question the science behind its validity.

Imho , the broom force is reinforcing a positive hand couple trait which can be deleterious in a golf swinging action that uses an 'In Plane Mof' to angularly accelerate the club into impact.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX-Gi_05ZAc

The above video is unfortunately teaching a hand release action (even if it's not meant to) that does not tally with what has been measured in pga pro swings.  For example, look at how he pronates his trail forearm and palm so that it faces more towards the ground before he conducts that 'sweep' motion.  What's the point in trying to fix the clubhead path if it makes your hand release action worse?

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Wildthing

[Goober]

When I do this with my instructor.It’s a feeling of pulling with left hand.And trail hand is pushing.And like Monte says, the body naturally reacts 

 

https://golfjourney365.com/monte-scheinblum-review-10-things-we-love-about-monte/

Edited October 10, 2022 by Goober

[AndySP]

48 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

All sounds pretty vague to me but if it's something that works for some people (ie. yourself) then go ahead but that doesn't mean I shouldn't question the science behind its validity. 

…look at how he pronates his trail forearm and palm so that it faces more towards the ground before he conducts that 'sweep' motion.  What's the point in trying to fix the clubhead path if it makes your hand release action worse?

 

Of course it’s vague, he’ holding a 5-foot broom and pushing water bottles around, lol. I assure you, he picks up a golf club later on.

You clearly are very intent on “questioning the science” behind every coach’s drill that anyone likes or posts about. You should speak to the coaches and PGA professionals you disagree with then come back and start a thread about what you learn (or don’t) from your conversation. It’s a little distracting here, (and now that I made it worse, I’ll stop).

This thread was about Goober’s success with a drill, not his failure with it.