Does 1 degree of loft make a big difference in wedges?

[jnz12]

On 6/20/2023 at 10:24 AM, NewYear_NewClubs said:

PW has Steelfiber PR i95 Stiff and GW, SW, LW have same modus 105 Wedge shafts. 

Thanks for your feedback!  As per your suggestion, I think I will keep my wedges way they are for now and make any changes if I truly feel the need. 

Yeah, I think the feedback you've been getting js great and suggest a few range sessions so get that gapping correct between the wedges and the new clubs. 

[mackdaddy]

I play 4 degrees of loft from the top of my bag to the bottom.  It is a predictable distance gap.  Having the same feel from the shafts is key as well.  I do play wedge flex shafts which don't match my irons.  I prefer them.  I play different brands of wedges because each offers me something different when I play. 

For my two cents the bigger the gap the more you often you have in between yardages to hit.  If you have great feel you can do anything with your wedges.  If you don't, smaller gaps leave less feel shots.  

[jhajduk]

When I think about my iron/wedge set up, I want my gapping fairly even (10-15 yds) through my irons to the 50° GW at 100-110 yds.  Beyond that, I'm looking for my SW and LW to complete their tasks in the sand and around the green, and I'm less concerned with their full "carry yardage".  For the sand at my home course, a 56° with 10-14° bounce works well, while I prefer to have my LW at 60°/6° with a round grind to give me more creativity off varying lies.

Sure, I can hit my SW 90-95 and my LW 75-80 with a full swing, but do I need to?  Most of the time, the answer is no.  Swinging hard tends to increase spin too much, and can result in me spinning it back way too much, or the shot blowing up into the wind.  It's much more common for me to take a little more club and flight the shot to get the right loft/spin for that particular approach.

Long story short, I would recommend you play with your clubs and even take several different shots (when you can) from varying distances from 100 yds and in.  Find the wedges that will get you up and down from the sand and when short-sided to a tight pin first, then worry about their full carry yardage afterwards.  Good luck!

Edited June 27, 2023 by jhajduk

[Donn lost in San Diego]

I don't understand how you can be a serious golfer, a 13, you are getting new clubs, and you don't know what a 1 degree difference makes, and you are worried?  You might need different lofts on a whole set of new wedges?  Who are you getting your new set from?  Did you ask?  Are you buying something you haven't hit?  Were you fitted?  Really?  One degree difference on a PW in a set you haven't hit yet?  I don't understand.  Now, you can look at my numbers and say, this guy is a duffer.  I am.  But I talk to my fitter, the folks at the Golfmart stores ( I have 5 now in my driving distance), discuss shafts, specs, I pick up a lot of used clubs to experiment with.  I am 68, lost 20 years with elbow surgeries, love my Ping I 500s and my 2 wedges: a Mizuno S5, GFF, 52 x 09, and a old old Ben Hogan Sure Out sand.  I chip with a chipper when about 10 yards or so from the green so I don't really need a wedge higher than my 56 sand.

[cnosil]

6 hours ago, Donn lost in San Diego said:

I don't understand how you can be a serious golfer, a 13, you are getting new clubs, and you don't know what a 1 degree difference makes, and you are worried?  You might need different lofts on a whole set of new wedges?  Who are you getting your new set from?  Did you ask?  Are you buying something you haven't hit?  Were you fitted?  Really?  One degree difference on a PW in a set you haven't hit yet?  I don't understand.  Now, you can look at my numbers and say, this guy is a duffer.  I am.  But I talk to my fitter, the folks at the Golfmart stores ( I have 5 now in my driving distance), discuss shafts, specs, I pick up a lot of used clubs to experiment with.  I am 68, lost 20 years with elbow surgeries, love my Ping I 500s and my 2 wedges: a Mizuno S5, GFF, 52 x 09, and a old old Ben Hogan Sure Out sand.  I chip with a chipper when about 10 yards or so from the green so I don't really need a wedge higher than my 56 sand.

The golfers that understand what you mentioned and actually go to a store and get fit for clubs is an extremely low number.  I know single digit golfers that when they ask you what shaft you have in your club they want to know flex not the model or profile.    

[Badams69]

On 6/26/2023 at 5:36 AM, YamYam said:

I know exactly what you mean.

This is the manufacturers continually looking for ways to force you to buy new clubs.

A must read are the books by Tom Wishon, (The search For The Perfect Golf Club).  Tom highlights the problem of the "disappearing loft disease".

It is a problem occurring at both ends of the range.  The 1. 2 and 3 iron are being forced out of bags and becoming obsolete because the loft on iron sets is reducing so drastically.  Some bags now only carry up to a 5 iron with the 4 iron being tossed out too.

The lofts on the longer irons would have to be reduced by the same proportion which makes them even harder to hit.  The 1 iron almost reaches a negative loft situation.

The replacements for the long irons are hybrids and utility irons which are designed to get the ball up quicker, but they aren't as controllable as the old irons.  A 1 or 2 iron is far better into a breeze than any hybrid "equivalent".

I feel it has taken a lot of skill out of the game.  I have almost forgotten how to hit a 3 iron and yet 10-15 years ago before all this lot really got going, I could hit 1 and 2 irons.

You don't see many YouTube videos instructing on long iron hitting these days.

Of course the delofting of the mid irons also has an effect on the short irons.  Where a wedge originally had 50° and all you needed was a 56° sand iron, (and possibly a 60° lob), you are now faced with a 9 iron playing nearer to a 7 or 8 forcing you to rethink the pitching wedges, some of  which are now coming in at a ridiculous 43°, (Titleist being one of them).  In turn this forces you to rethink all of the wedges and the gaps between them, but don't worry (ha ha!), the manufacturers have created the gapping for you.  All you have to do is buy them at around £160 a throw!

At the end of it all, you have to make up your mind whether you need to compensate at the long end of the set, or if you rely heavily on your short game, the short end.  But you are still governed by the Rules of Golf where you are only allowed to carry 14 clubs, when actually the manufacturers need you to carry several more to enable you to play the game.

In answer to your question, my club setter as always maintained that 1° equates to 3 yards of carry either way.  You may need to confirm that.

I'd be interested in what you find out, but if you get a chance, read those books.  

  

Lot of truth in here.  No doubt.

I would like to point out that our blind devotion to the numbers on the bottom of the club is also to blame.

Our clinging to "it isn't a proper 7 iron" is a bit of an issue as well.  And a bit odd to me given we know the new 5 is the old 4 and so on.   (please don't arrive thinking about educating us all (or me) about new tech causing this or that CG and higher/lower this or that- we are all  very aware).

For instance ...... I have two old sets where the lofts are well higher per designated # from those on my more up to date set.   However, you obviously understand that if I were to compare any of these sets, the designated number on said iron is not a fair or proper way to reference them.  My Eye2 6 is the more direct comparison to my current 7 and that travels up and down the bag.   So, when we cry foul about the current PW leaving us in limbo around the 48-50* loft range, that is just us being silly. 

So, no they don't have the identical options at the top or bottom of the bag as before, but a 3 iron today is an old 2 iron. 

As for options, I would agree it seemed so much simpler back when ...... we got that vast proportion of our gapping pre-prescribed for us.  We then simply worked around it and figured out how to score our best. 

I put forth that we sort of blindly follow recommendations today rather than simply do what golfers for eons have always done.  Work with what you have and figure out how to manipulated those lofts and clubs to your benefit rather than run around searching for someone to tell us how to fix it.   Golfers suffer from not relying on themselves more as a result.

Not all golfers, but it is a thing.   Neat as all this tech is, nothing replaces figuring it out on your own at some point.    50/56.  52/56, 50/54/58 , 52/56/60 ........ whatever you have .... you have more than enough to score !!!!

 

[RwsGolf1]

One aspect that many fail to realize is that lofts are much stronger today than in the past.  Secondly,  good players realize that lofts change as the club is played.  Serious golfers must check lofts periodically as forgings especially will bend slightly over time.  Wedges are more important as compared to other clubs for loft verification.  If you are relying on a 56 deg. SW to fly 110 and over time it goes 120, a player must compensate.  More Important are the half shots, low trajectory spinners or flights over bunkers to tight pin placements. Dirty grooves will definitely affect distance and spin. Turf conditions such as damp grass or thick rough all must factor in on club selection.  My SW and LW are more than 10 years old.  They have been re-grooved and so they are still playable and a comfortable look after years of experience.  Also note; all manufacturers are trying to sell you the next best widget when in fact, the old stand-bys are in most cases as good or better.

Edited June 27, 2023 by RwsGolf1

[Badams69]

1 hour ago, RwsGolf1 said:

One aspect that many fail to realize is that lofts are much stronger today than in the past.  Secondly,  good players realize that lofts change as the club is played.  Serious golfers must check lofts periodically as forgings especially will bend slightly over time.  Wedges are more important as compared to other clubs for loft verification.  If you are relying on a 56 deg. SW to fly 110 and over time it goes 120, a player must compensate.  More Important are the half shots, low trajectory spinners or flights over bunkers to tight pin placements. Dirty grooves will definitely affect distance and spin. Turf conditions such as damp grass or thick rough all must factor in on club selection.  My SW and LW are more than 10 years old.  They have been re-grooved and so they are still playable and a comfortable look after years of experience.  Also note; all manufacturers are trying to sell you the next best widget when in fact, the old stand-bys are in most cases as good or better.

Great point.   Like old buildings with solid bones, too many are quick to tear down and build with newer, often indistinguishably "better" structures.

I feel golfers do the same.     

The point you made about loft drifting over time is a good one.  But it can't be ignored, that virtually no golfer stays spot on the same distance from one day to the next, especially month over month or year over year.  It all is in flux at all times.   

It is my firm belief in what you state/imply about finding something that works and hanging on to it!.    I've done so in the last few years, and am seriously contemplating doing it again.  .....   My best golf was played with 845s and Eye2s, and I'm not alone there.  When I do play rounds with the set of each I keep around, I can honestly say it is definitely not WORSE.  Not pretending I don't see some benefits from my CF16s, but it is only fair to point out that each of the older sets have their own slight preferred characteristics as well. 

Get clubs and get to work!  Barring you are wildly out of your realm or working with trash equipment, you'll likely be right in your scoring wheelhouse with one of 100s of sets you would shoot similar scores with.  

[Merlin1313]

FWIW- I go from 42*(PW) to 48*(AW) to 54*(SW)58*(LW1)64*(LW2). It's a SLIGHT change from my previous set-up (45*PW-50*AW) but I know the distances of my clubs and I can make adjustments as necessary. At the end of the day- I have a 52.5* difference from my driver to LW2 which equates to JUST over 4* per club(excluding putter) and I'm REALLY comfortable with the set up and that's all that really matters

[Badams69]

19 hours ago, Merlin1313 said:

FWIW- I go from 42*(PW) to 48*(AW) to 54*(SW)58*(LW1)64*(LW2). It's a SLIGHT change from my previous set-up (45*PW-50*AW) but I know the distances of my clubs and I can make adjustments as necessary. At the end of the day- I have a 52.5* difference from my driver to LW2 which equates to JUST over 4* per club(excluding putter) and I'm REALLY comfortable with the set up and that's all that really matters

No doubt.  As long as any golfer has a tool for the job at hand.  There is no magic formula for "gapping"/spacing of lofts.  It is likely unwise to overdo it on the redundancy direction, so if there were a way to screw it up that may be the more likely situation, multiple clubs that ultimately produce the same effect.....would be the bigger screw up. 

I kinda dig the gapping you listed as every club, and then partials of that club, has room in your bag without being overlapped up by the next shorter club.   Ultimately seems to allow for more variability overall !!!  

[NewYear_NewClubs]

On 6/26/2023 at 9:38 PM, jhajduk said:

long story short, I would recommend you play with your clubs and even take several different shots (when you can) from varying distances from 100 yds and in.  Find the wedges that will get you up and down from the sand and when short-sided to a tight pin first, then worry about their full carry yardage afterwards.  Good luck!

Great suggestion!  Thanks!

[NewYear_NewClubs]

On 6/27/2023 at 6:37 AM, cnosil said:

The golfers that understand what you mentioned and actually go to a store and get fit for clubs is an extremely low number.  I know single digit golfers that when they ask you what shaft you have in your club they want to know flex not the model or profile.    

Thank you sir!  Couldn't have said it better myself! 

[NewYear_NewClubs]

On 6/27/2023 at 7:56 AM, Badams69 said:

As for options, I would agree it seemed so much simpler back when ...... we got that vast proportion of our gapping pre-prescribed for us.  We then simply worked around it and figured out how to score our best. 

Amen brother!  Miss the good old days when I had no idea what lofts my irons and wedges had. 

[NewYear_NewClubs]

On 6/27/2023 at 9:34 AM, RwsGolf1 said:

One aspect that many fail to realize is that lofts are much stronger today than in the past.  Secondly,  good players realize that lofts change as the club is played.  Serious golfers must check lofts periodically as forgings especially will bend slightly over time.  Wedges are more important as compared to other clubs for loft verification.  If you are relying on a 56 deg. SW to fly 110 and over time it goes 120, a player must compensate.  More Important are the half shots, low trajectory spinners or flights over bunkers to tight pin placements. Dirty grooves will definitely affect distance and spin. Turf conditions such as damp grass or thick rough all must factor in on club selection.  My SW and LW are more than 10 years old.  They have been re-grooved and so they are still playable and a comfortable look after years of experience.  Also note; all manufacturers are trying to sell you the next best widget when in fact, the old stand-bys are in most cases as good or better.

I agree with you 100%.  Where I live in Texas, we have a dramatic temperature change between summer vs winter so I normally check the loft and lie angle between each season change.

[richk9holes]

Just now, NewYear_NewClubs said:

Amen brother!  Miss the good old days when I had no idea what lofts my irons and wedges had. 

As I learn more about the wild differences between specs, I giggle on the course at certain scenarios now.

Example, it happens almost every round someone in my group will take aim at a par 3 and attempt their shot followed by someone else saying "what'd you hit there?" -8 iron.

I glance at their equipment. One has Mavrik irons the other a 20 yo starter set.

If someone asks me that question I instinctively reply "My ____ yard club" it's a lot more usable information.

[Tincuptim]

Truth is, most golfers even down into the single digits can't carry a stock wedge shot the same yardage shot after shot. If you can get it to within 5 yards you are better than 95% of the general golfing public. Go to a place where you can hit your irons and check carry, spin, and launch angle and you will have a baseline when going to the course. Very few professionals or very good amateurs take full settings at wedges so they can control flight and spin. They hit them much lower than you think. Good luck!

[mackdaddy]

On 6/26/2023 at 2:25 PM, fozcycle said:

My set has a 43* PW, 48* GW, then I have a 53* SW and 57* LW.

First two have Fubuku Senior shafts and the last two have KBS PGI shafts, just a bit stiffer than the PW.GW. Gamed them for 6 months, so far so good.

Distances are:

PW 105-110

GW 90-100

SW 75-85

LW 60-70

 

Fozcycle, it is great to see you use a range of yardages I really don't understand the mentality of having a single yardage number for a club in their heads.  I play a 7-10 yard range with each club.

[cnosil]

5 minutes ago, Mackey said:

Fozcycle, it is great to see you use a range of yardages I really don't understand the mentality of having a single yardage number for a club in their heads.  I play a 7-10 yard range with each club.

I play a club from a chip off the green to its stock yardage.   However, when I refer to a clubs distance for purposes of gapping it is a single number based on hitting a stock shot not a variety of distances.   I think what you are referring to is probably dispersion circles that may result in a shot ending up long left and short right, but those aren’t planned distances for a club.  

[mackdaddy]

I was referring to comfortable playing range.  I know that if I hit my 9 iron I am comfortable hitting it from 125 to 135  just by feel ie pace of swing.  I can vary my shot distance with my swing speed and length.  My yardage ranges for each club overlap.  I think everyone does it but they rarely acknowledge the range for each club.  People say things like I'm going to have to lean on this one or knock it down.  I just keep track of those distances by tracking them.  It's super helpful to know an average 9 iron stock will go 128 to 130 but if I need to hit to a front pin at 132 I have that with room to spare.  Everyone I know does it but few have tracked it to know for sure what they can pull off a shot bringing anxiety into the shot.  

[cnosil]

24 minutes ago, Mackey said:

I was referring to comfortable playing range.  I know that if I hit my 9 iron I am comfortable hitting it from 125 to 135  just by feel ie pace of swing.  I can vary my shot distance with my swing speed and length.  My yardage ranges for each club overlap.  I think everyone does it but they rarely acknowledge the range for each club.  People say things like I'm going to have to lean on this one or knock it down.  I just keep track of those distances by tracking them.  It's super helpful to know an average 9 iron stock will go 128 to 130 but if I need to hit to a front pin at 132 I have that with room to spare.  Everyone I know does it but few have tracked it to know for sure what they can pull off a shot bringing anxiety into the shot.  

Even with what you said, I personally still wouldn’t refer to a clubs distance as a range, but how far you hit a specific shot.   It’s like saying how far you hit a 9:00 wedge shot.  For the other clubs you are saying I need to hit it 139, that’s a 3/4 knockdown 9 iron club open to 12:30.   Like I said, I can hit every club from a foot to its max distance, your chart is not something I want to track.

[richk9holes]

I find this insightful about my own game, I incorporate both elements/viewpoints being discussed here.

My 6i-PW specifically those clubs I think of in terms of the number being carry on a stock shot. The 5i and 4h also have these numbers designated the same way, but I use them only half the time in terms of that stock shot. The PW similarly gets used a variety of ways and only about half the time is swung fully.

So with the wedges, 45° set wedge and 52-56 I also have the framework in my head of a range of distances these go depending on factors. With 5i (which is marketed as a utility iron) 4h, 3w and even my driver I have a similar range in mind once again taking all factors into account.

For me it makes sense as that middle distance 100-180y is where I feel I can control relative to the task at hand, namely get it to the middle of the green or reasonably close to the flag.

Inside 100y that task becomes to get it very close or even in the hole. The 3 wedges having 3 unique profiles and 3 different bounce numbers matters more to me than the yardage gap on a stock shot.

From 180y + the goal shifts to being on the green anywhere I'll take it. Having 3 options to get there is more about flight path than each of the 3 clubs going a specific distance.

[Iamsecond116]

On 6/26/2023 at 9:00 AM, richk9holes said:

It's already been stated, but bending a club's loft will change the bounce. 

As an example a 50°/10° bent 1 degree weak will be a 51°/11°. The loft has only gone up 2% which is marginal. But the bounce has gone up 10% which is significant.

When I changed irons, I decided to keep my wedges because the bounce is where I want them. It results in PW of 45° a gap wedge at 52/10° and my sw 56/12°. After about 30 rounds I've decided I can game this setup. I rarely take full swings with wedges so the 7° gap doesn't come into play.

What is your yardage range with each club? I am trying to figure out a range of distance for my new 45 degree PW down to my 51 degree gap wedge that I could shoot for. 
 

These are new clubs for me so I don’t have yardages dialed in yet, but I am hoping to get ranges of 40-50 yards with each club depending on length of backswing and tempo coming through the ball. In the past I used only full swings to try and hit yardages and would like to move to less than full swings from 130 yards and in.

[richk9holes]

@BhamGator I find it useful to think in terms of full swing, 3/4 swing, 1/2 swing, 1/4 swing, chip/flop. The math isn't exact, but close enough for approximation imo, since you're factoring in wind, slope and other conditions on the fly, a half swing will go a little further than half the normal carry distance of a full swing if I have 1/2 backswing and full follow through. It goes a little less than that number if I swing back and forth keeping the clubhead around waist high at the finish.

I first get an estimate of the yardage. If it is within 10 yards of the full swing carry of my wedges I will pull that club and hit something close to a full swing. In-between yardages I tend to defer to the lower lofted wedge, the idea being keep it low and moving toward the target. Slope and pace of the green and my lie have a critical role in the final decision. In long rough I know my options to flight and spin are limited and my probability of a soaring flier over the green is moderate. I tend to use extra club 3/4 or 1/2 swing from the rough inside 90y. There are times you get so short sided the only play is to try a flop shot with your highest loft.

[cnosil]

24 minutes ago, BhamGator said:

What is your yardage range with each club? I am trying to figure out a range of distance for my new 45 degree PW down to my 51 degree gap wedge that I could shoot for. 
 

These are new clubs for me so I don’t have yardages dialed in yet, but I am hoping to get ranges of 40-50 yards with each club depending on length of backswing and tempo coming through the ball. In the past I used only full swings to try and hit yardages and would like to move to less than full swings from 130 yards and in.

In my opinion and based on what I see,  the range of a club is huge. Right or wrong, I typically pull my 54 for most shots inside of 100.  I can hit it 100 or I can do partial swings down to an off the green chip.   
 

you can create distance by swing length or by swing speed.   For each club if you did a waist, ribs, shoulders swing you would probably see a 40-50 yard difference between shortest to longest.  The more loft you use that distance gap might be a little narrower.  General suggestion is to build the feels and figure out how far the bal goes for each feel.   

[RwsGolf1]

1 degree only makes the difference in the gap between your wedges.  A constant separation allows for yardage differences.  1 degree in lie, or 1 degree in bounce is just as important.  When a shot requires bounce, you need to use the club with the bounce.  My SW has the most bounce.  When conditions change in bunkers such as firm sand, wet conditions, I may either use the lob (less bounce) or even a regular wedge.  When you get new clubs you need to make sure that you fill the yardage gaps.  I the past 40 years, a 9 iron loft is much stronger where now the loft of a gap wedge.

Edited August 26, 2023 by RwsGolf1

[THE GOLF GUY]

On 6/26/2023 at 12:09 PM, puttnfool said:

I went to 54/58 a few years ago and I like it. The 58 is a bit "easier" than the 60 and the 54 doesn't tend to spin as much as the 56 so it doesn't shed distance when I hit it a little bit "spinny."

For reference, I have ZX7 PW and GW.  I'm not 100% sure, off the top of my head, what their lofts are. Could be 46/50.  Could be 45/50. Could be 46/51. I dunno.  Somewhere around there.

Personally, I’d go 45*,50*,56*&60* but I really believe that for an average golfer 45*,50*, 54* & 58* would be a lot more beneficial to scoring better , especially on a shorter course! 

[GolfSpy_APH]

Very much depends on the golfer, but for me and the way by bag is set it does. Maybe more in my head, but having that equal gapping is crucial. 

[ILMgolfnut]

I'm the crazy 5-wedge guy, and here are my lofts:

PW -- 41.5, per Cobra specs. The PW it replaced was 48, I think, leading to:

GW -- 47.5, per Cobra

SW -- 54

LW -- 58

XW -- 64

So pretty much a 6-degree difference in everything except between sand and lob, and that's more due to the bounces involved. My fitter took that into account when he was recommending everything but the XW, which I dug out of my closet to get out of Scottish pot bunkers.

[THE GOLF GUY]

On 6/25/2023 at 8:43 PM, revkev said:

Let’s get back to this shaft choice - it’s a tour players. Aero tech stiffs even at that weight are x’s. 
 

You should start there before you concern yourself with 1 degree. Seriously - 

 

Beyond that does it fit the gap, launch window, carry distance and spin that you want? 

That’s what matters.

I play the regular flex Aerotech 95gm and they are stout ! I play stiff in my driver and woods .

[Guest-0]

3 hours ago, ILMgolfnut said:

I'm the crazy 5-wedge guy, and here are my lofts:

PW -- 41.5, per Cobra specs. The PW it replaced was 48, I think, leading to:

GW -- 47.5, per Cobra

SW -- 54

LW -- 58

XW -- 64

So pretty much a 6-degree difference in everything except between sand and lob, and that's more due to the bounces involved. My fitter took that into account when he was recommending everything but the XW, which I dug out of my closet to get out of Scottish pot bunkers.

Everyone has their thing that works for them but i dont like any more than 4° gap so i use a 48 52 56 60 Vokeys and the 48 is my pw i don't carry a Ping PW I don't like the wedges that come in the iron sets but whatever works for us is what's best