Mizuno Long Game - 2023 Forum Review

[NM01]

4 minutes ago, vandyland said:

This will be on trackman, do we trust the face contact display on those? Typically I have found them to be fairly accurate when I feel a high, toe miss it shows a high toe miss etc. 

you could but having something on the face would be more accurate.

the trackman will give a good general idea that could be used as you compare the changes.

Things I would also look at is start baseline is your dynamic loft, launch angle, spin, apex/peak height and descent/land angle. Also face angle and face to path.

Note the differences. Dynamic loft is going to influence contact point which will influence spin, launch, etc

[Beakbryce]

59 minutes ago, vandyland said:

I will admit I get confused on upright/flat lie angle settings WAY more than I should. I have always been a little leery of changing lie angle settings as I didn't want to get "used" to a flat or upright position since I am fairly average height and my irons are all standard lie. Maybe that is a dumb thing to not check or mess with but it is almost like "if I need this setting maybe I should work on my swing"....maybe that is an ignorant position to take. My driving is pretty good most days relative to the rest of my game so this has always been a "if it isn't broken don't fix it." I should note that my gamer driver's lie angle is 58.50* (or thereabouts depending on manufacturing tolerances) and STZ is stock at 57.5* so the STZ is already a little flatter. I am curious what happens if I go straight into a 60.5* lie angle. 

I think if you are talking irons it would be noticeable but with the driver, not so much. I moved it all over earlier and didn't really notice "upright" as much as I noted the face angle changes. I would be curious about the hybrid though. Since mine is working great I am hesitant to change that puppy.

When I was wondering around the settings on my Epic, they have a draw setting that actually changes the lie. It didn't so much cause a draw as more of a pull. I guess left is good if you want left but I would rather it curved.  I noticed with the Mizuno it was slightly right to leftish ball flight so more of a draw but not consistent. That was one of the reasons I went back to stock as that results in a straight ball for me and who can't play just straight?

Nice conditions for this mornings round. Played the bigger lads tees at the base at 6035. Averaged 222 yards. Missed a few more greens but still managed a nice 76 (par 71). I may have to get a new putter, maybe left handed to retrain my hands!

[Beakbryce]

2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

edit: since we all react differently to changes in how the face looks and that will make all things no longer equal because our mind will make adjustments to get to square at impact. My last titleist fitter did this to me. We were all dialed in, he had no more appointments for the day and asked if he could use me to play with settings and record the changes. He tweaked loft and lie from where we finished and one we didn’t use in the fitting. The look at address wasn’t suited to my eye and the ball flight I prefer. In order to try and get that result he noticed I changed my swing to compensate and the results of ball flight were terrible. Couldn’t keep the ball in play at all with a big right miss 

That is cool to know. Sounds like a fun test if you have the equipment to check. I did notice during the testing that once I changed settings before play, I reacted to that first shots flight by changing ball position to try to optimize the next shot. Sounds to me like maybe my mind optimized what I saw of the club on the first shot and made decisions for me in the swing. No wonder I felt like a dog chasing his tail.

If I knew my neighbors wouldn't mind the noise, I would set up a launch monitor/simulator on my back porch. I could test all this stuff. I would love to play the Old Course or Augusta every day. 

Problem is half the people around me need naps during the day! If I could just get them to coordinate the same hours...

Just signed up for a later tee time tomorrow with no one closer than the groups starting an hour ahead. I should be able to hit both drivers and 3 wood for definitive numbers under similar conditions.  

Edited August 22, 2023 by Beakbryce

[Beakbryce]

More swing thoughts. When I started playing golf I had a very long swing, past parallel. 10 years in I read Jim Mclean's article in Golf Magazine about the x-factor swing. I went from left toe out to parallel feet and a bigger turn of the shoulders but not the hips which brought my backswing to parallel. The swing emphasized the core muscle stretch and posting on the left leg. I may have misread the article a little as I really didn't move the hips much which is incorrect. I have corrected hip movement somewhat over time as more explanations and videos surfaced on the swing. I have played that swing for a long time. Despite being 71, I still reach parallel easily on the backswing. However, posting on my left leg is just out the window mainly due to my knee. The last few times I have again pointed the left toe area left and am trying to swing around the leg instead of posting on it. This allows for more hip movement, especially in the downswing. Shots are a bit more solid. Pain nonexistent, at least while I am playing!

I bring this up because I am seeing a little more yardage with my woods, including the Mizuno driver. Average has improved with every round. Could be a bit of the club just getting hit in as well. 

Always trying something new.

[NM01]

25 minutes ago, Beakbryce said:

That is cool to know. Sounds like a fun test if you have the equipment to check. I did notice during the testing that once I changed settings before play, I reacted to that first shots flight by changing ball position to try to optimize the next shot. Sounds to me like my maybe my mind optimized what I saw of the club on the first shot and made decisions for me in the swing. No wonder I felt like a dog chasing his tail.

If I knew my neighbors wouldn't mind the noise, I would set up a launch monitor/simulator on my back porch. I could test all this stuff. I would love to play the Old Course or Augusta every day. 

Problem is half the people around me need naps during the day! If I could just get them to coordinate the same hours...

Just signed up for a later tee time tomorrow with no one closer than the groups starting an hour ahead. I should be able to hit both drivers and 3 wood for definitive numbers under similar conditions.  

Yeah our eyes play tricks on us which send signals to the brain and then we make compensations to achieve our desired result. Even if we try to do everything the same as we normally do. Which was the case at the end of my fitting. I roll want I felt like was the same swing as a I had been doing but my fitter noticed the change visually in my swing. Having gone thru a personal training certification and studying for a corrective exercise one, there was a lot of material in how the brain, the motor control system, motor neurons and all of that circuitry works. Our brains can sense a lot, it’s why when you look at peoples swings there are compensations being made for the club being out of position and the brain doing what it can to help us hit a good shot. Sometimes we have good days and sometimes we have bad ones based on how good the timing of those compensations are. For me if I play 3 days in a row the 3rd day is going to be my worst of the 3 because of the increased fatigue 

as to testing you can do it without a monitor by looking at the ball flight and using something on the face to identify where contact is made.

[vandyland]

Lie/Loft Test complete (FYI I have soooo much data here that I will get into later but here are the brightline numbers):

 

My main goal here was to see if I was giving anything up playing in the standard setting. For the "upright" setting, I can say definitively....no. I lost several of them WAY left and, surprisingly, two way right. But lofted down is another story. That wasn't as clear cut. I saw a few shots I REALLY liked on the lower loft setting. Surprisingly spin was basically flat across the two but launch came down (not sure that is a good thing) as did height (ditto). Ball speed was up but it didn't really result in anything. Truth be told, I hit significantly more shots with the lower loft (see dispersion chart above). The standard was so accurate you can barely even see it on the dispersion chart but check out how small that grouping circle is. I think I will stick with the standard setting but this was a fun exercise. 

It was interesting that they all curve about the same amount but the standard setting just STARTS in the right place for my draw. Maybe it is because I am used to it? I don't know. But I am loving this lie angle and I never even knew I needed it!

Full data if anyone cares, I got an initial "set" of 5 where I threw out really bad strikes (maybe 2 or 3 total) and then went to "no throwaways" for the last 7/8 shots where I had to just take whatever I got. 

Edited August 23, 2023 by vandyland

[Beakbryce]

1 hour ago, vandyland said:

My main goal here was to see if I was giving anything up playing in the standard setting. For the "upright" setting, I can say definitively....no. I lost several of them WAY left and, surprisingly, two way right. But lofted down is another story. That wasn't as clear cut. I saw a few shots I REALLY liked on the lower loft setting. Surprisingly spin was basically flat across the two but launch came down (not sure that is a good thing) as did height (ditto). Ball speed was up but it didn't really result in anything. Truth be told, I hit significantly more shots with the lower loft (see dispersion chart above). The standard was so accurate you can barely even see it on the dispersion chart but check out how small that grouping circle is. I think I will stick with the standard setting but this was a fun exercise. 

I think this is somewhat the same as I found although my findings were on the course. The standard works spectacularly well, the other choices leave a question mark in the back of one's mind. I also had balls going each way with the upright settings. The lower lofted setting didn't work for me because the flight shape was too low to get any yardage. 

I suppose with these findings that if you were to play on a windy day the lower loft setting would be playable without changing your swing to try to hit knockdowns.

I was taken how your average and median were very close to the same number indicating a symmetrical range of data. I don't know what that means due to all the variables which can change in the swing but something must have been similar.

[vandyland]

Fli Hi Update

Also, after hitting on Trackman, I hit some Mizuno Pro Fli Hi shots off REAL turf on the range and it was way better. Caught most of them flush and they came out fine with a few that were VERY good. Still not notably better than the Callaway but I am getting used to the fli hi and it is certainly keeping up. 

There is a net at the end of the range that I was flying the callaway and mizuno into that starts at 195 yds. Today I was hitting it about halfway up on the fly (the net in total is about 50 ft high). Then I teed up the mizuno fli hi (mind you it is 21.5* in loft) and CLEARED the net with just the slightest of draws. I could have married that ball flight right there. That is easily 230 carry probably. So...that is interesting. 

A few words (and photos) about "misses" and mishits on the Mizuno STZ 230 Driver

Not sure how accurate the Trackman strike location is but today I started using it as a second display point alongside the tracer and I would say I could generally call where the strike was before it popped up and mostly agreed with it. "High toe" "Low center" "Mid toe" etc. Anyway, assuming these are mostly correct, I had some VERY good results with "misses" today, including the "high toe" miss that is kind of ideal based on Howard Jones' DIY driver fitting. I took some pictures with the shot tracer and stats alongside so you can see what I mean:

Exhibit A: So this is barely on the face of the club! 267 carry? 161 ballspeed? In the fairway on almost any hole in America? How is that possible?

Exhibit B: The "perfect" slightly high toe miss. Yep, lowered the spin and totaled over 300. The left bias is probably mostly due to an in-to-out path and a closed face to path. But very good but that is to be expected. 

Exhibit C : Basically centered but slightly low toe side. Again, as good as you would expect. 

Exhibit D : Very low, very toe side. Extremely playable miss. It probably helped that the face was open to the path which may have negated some of the gear effect? Again, this is quite good for barely being on the face. 

I didn't have any heely misses today but I would expect they also retain a lot of ball speed and do quite well. This is very compelling to me. 

Edited August 23, 2023 by vandyland

[Swood1994]

56 minutes ago, vandyland said:

Fli Hi Update

Also, after hitting on Trackman, I hit some Mizuno Pro Fli Hi shots off REAL turf on the range and it was way better. Caught most of them flush and they came out fine with a few that were VERY good. Still not notably better than the Callaway but I am getting used to the fli hi and it is certainly keeping up. 

There is a net at the end of the range that I was flying the callaway and mizuno into that starts at 195 yds. Today I was hitting it about halfway up on the fly (the net in total is about 50 ft high). Then I teed up the mizuno fli hi (mind you it is 21.5* in loft) and CLEARED the net with just the slightest of draws. I could have married that ball flight right there. That is easily 230 carry probably. So...that is interesting. 

A few words (and photos) about "misses" and mishits on the Mizuno STZ 230 Driver

Not sure how accurate the Trackman strike location is but today I started using it as a second display point alongside the tracer and I would say I could generally call where the strike was before it popped up and mostly agreed with it. "High toe" "Low center" "Mid toe" etc. Anyway, assuming these are mostly correct, I had some VERY good results with "misses" today, including the "high toe" miss that is kind of ideal based on Howard Jones' DIY driver fitting. I took some pictures with the shot tracer and stats alongside so you can see what I mean:

Exhibit A: So this is barely on the face of the club! 267 carry? 161 ballspeed? In the fairway on almost any hole in America? How is that possible?

Exhibit B: The "perfect" slightly high toe miss. Yep, lowered the spin and totaled over 300. The left bias is probably mostly due to an in-to-out path and a closed face to path. But very good but that is to be expected. 

Exhibit C : Basically centered but slightly low toe side. Again, as good as you would expect. 

Exhibit D : Very low, very toe side. Extremely playable miss. It probably helped that the face was open to the path which may have negated some of the gear effect? Again, this is quite good for barely being on the face. 

I didn't have any heely misses today but I would expect they also retain a lot of ball speed and do quite well. This is very compelling to me. 

As a data analyst I’m loving the amount of detail you are able to capture. Great work!

[Beakbryce]

13 hours ago, vandyland said:

Howard Jones' DIY driver fitting

For someone who generationally "digs it out of the dirt", this is a lot of info to absorb. I found it interesting that heel side hits mean the shaft is too long. I just never thought about where it hits on the face as something that is a fitting issue rather than a swing issue. Actually, I have hardly ever seen someone that hits it on the heel a majority of the time. I have a buddy that lines it up on the heel but doesn't hit it there as he is bent over a lot on address but on the downswing comes up and the added room from coming up has him hitting on the sweet spot.

I think I am going to go back to lining the Mizuno logo up with the ball where I had slightly toe side hits at the first part of my testing and see if that helps distance. I will be out today hitting both clubs off the tee on driving holes and see which results in the more playable ball. I will be using 2 Pro V1X and I will alternate which club I hit first off the tee. I am also going to mark the balls with different colors and then switch which club hits which ball after 9 to minimize the possibility that one ball is longer than the other. I may also choke up on the Callaway at some point just to see the difference. I will try to post the numbers today but am playing later to minimize running in to groups that I would have to play through. 

[vandyland]

2 hours ago, Beakbryce said:

I found it interesting that heel side hits mean the shaft is too long.

And I think that since the Mizuno is 45", I am slowly adjusting to the shorter driver (my gamer is 45.75") and thus the strikes are a little more toe side. Truth be told, that is my typical miss anyway. 

[NM01]

4 hours ago, Beakbryce said:

For someone who generationally "digs it out of the dirt", this is a lot of info to absorb. I found it interesting that heel side hits mean the shaft is too long. I just never thought about where it hits on the face as something that is a fitting issue rather than a swing issue. Actually, I have hardly ever seen someone that hits it on the heel a majority of the time. I have a buddy that lines it up on the heel but doesn't hit it there as he is bent over a lot on address but on the downswing comes up and the added room from coming up has him hitting on the sweet spot.

It could be a swing issue too but more than likely that’s caused by the length. Howard was a long time fitter in Europe and worked with all levels of golfers including tour pros make and female.

he has an insane amount of data from fittings and testing. He’s working on a “study” now about spin and is dining that regardless of swing speed 2100 rpm with driver is enough for everyone. Looking forward to seeing the results when he is done

[Beakbryce]

Asked for and accomplished. Took both drivers out and hit both off of each tee. Conditions were: temp 108 high, mid 20's humidity, wind 15 with gusts (unknown as to how hi). Wowser. 4 days golfing in a row. 2.5 hour round, did not see a soul other than the marshal. I love it when it gets hot.

You will note the goofiness with houses on either side where the tees hardly ever aim at the fairway. I know this is a designer trick but it's stupid! another reason I like the base course better.

Hole by hole

1. Straight away hole with right crosswind. Callaway Epic (C): 217 center of fairway. Mizuno 230Z (M) 200 right rough. 

2. Tee aims one down the right rough, downwind. C- 230 right rough. M- 222 left fairway.

3. Tee aims down the left rough, right crosswind. I generally hit a fade that can get close to this green. If the pin is anywhere but front, down the left requires a hit over the trap to get to the hole, so right side is better. Fairway slopes slightly right but right rough is a great play. C- 222 a cut to the right rough. M- 234 dead straight just in left side of fairway.  Luckily the pin was in the front. Made the only birdie of the day here as the second shot was a flip chip.

4. Par 3

5. I don't like this tee shot. Visually, it sucks. Tee aims down the left rough and both balls dead straight into the rough. Wind was into and from the right. C- 210. M- 201

6. Tee again aims at left rough. I like a cut here. Wind was dead into. After I hit the second shot I had to make sure I changed clubs because both shots looked the same. Both balls hit dead center in the fairway, into the same 3 square yard mud pit around a drain and could be covered by a golf towel. 205 yards

7. Is a short par 4 with water left and long beyond both the green, which is offset left, and the fairway. One can go for it but I always hit 4 hybrid and chip which is what I did. I have hit to many drivers and 3 woods dead straight away and watched them go in the water straight from the tee. 

8. Par 3

9. Tee aims down the left rough. From the tee I was playing there is a fairway bunker also left that I can carry. Wind left to right. C- nice cut that road the wind to the middle of the fairway 224 yards. M- nice cut that fell out of the sky for some reason and was in the grass above the bunker. Can't explain it. 195 yards.

10. Tee aims down the right rough. Wind died down for a minute. C- bombed dead straight into the right rough which was dry and not long. Lots of run. 248 yards. M- 210, center of fairway. I had hit the Mizuno first with a slight pull. This was a case where the fairway was an up slope and the Mizuno got caught short and the right rough was a runway. 

11. Tee aims down the right rough. Wind back up and into. C- center of fairway 208. M- finished in right rough 194. 

12. Tee aims at the left houses. I hate this tee. It's claustrophobic. C- right side fairway 215. M- center of fairway 214. 

13. Par 3

14. Tee aims at the left houses but not claustrophobic close. I like this tee as this is a good place to ride the usual left to right wind and hit it close to the green. C- 209. M 213 

15. This is a fun hole. There is a barranca that crosses the entire fairway from left to right with the tee aiming straight down the middle of the fairway. It is a red marked hazard and mostly filled with softball or bigger river rock with an area wide enough to drive a cart through. The hazard is about 230 yards from the tee. I hit 2 identical cool shots that were 2 yards apart on smaller pebbles in the cart drive through area dead center of the hazard. Both balls were resting on the rocks. Both shots were definitely "aim small, miss small" dead straight with nice trajectory for the wind. C- 239 M- 237 Really the best shots of the day.

16. Dog leg right that has the tee box aimed down the left fairway line. I aim at the right side of a fairway bunker and the M went dead on line. I pulled the C. C- 225 M- 222

17. Par 3

18. Par 5 with a tremendously wide fairway. Tee aims down the right side of the fairway. Managed to pull both drives to the left rough. C- 230. M-222

I thought this would be ideal conditions for the Mizuno. Low spin in 15 mph winds and a dry fairway. Still, C averaged 222 and the M averaged 213. This is in line with previous test for me. Head-to-head the M was longer twice which is not a good ratio. All the drives however were playable. 

Where to go from here?

I'm tired. Playing tomorrow morning but will not be testing. Laying off until I see how everyone is doing and if there is something else to try.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Beakbryce

[Swood1994]

I have tee times scheduled for both Saturday and Sunday as well as Trackman time scheduled for Monday after work (yay Data!). So far I've felt really good about the clubs on the stock setting so until Monday that is where they will stay. I may bring my Paradym to hit a few second tee shots to see if they are comparable but I'm unsure if those will provide any value.

[russtopherb]

9 minutes ago, Swood1994 said:

I have tee times scheduled for both Saturday and Sunday as well as Trackman time scheduled for Monday after work (yay Data!). So far I've felt really good about the clubs on the stock setting so until Monday that is where they will stay. I may bring my Paradym to hit a few second tee shots to see if they are comparable but I'm unsure if those will provide any value.

Looks like my round tomorrow is going to get rained out, so I'll need to see if I can get out on Sunday if possible to get some more on-course data. My plan for my next round is to bring my Mavrik Max and see if I have the opportunity to hit 2 tee shots on each hole if possible. If not, I'm sure I'll be able to walk a twilight round soon and be able to do that. 

I can't really compare the fairway and hybrid as they technically aren't replacing anything in my bag on an apples to apples basis. Both clubs are fighting my Hy-Wood for slots in the bag, and honestly there's enough of a difference to not really be able to compare. So far, in my limited experience, having both of those clubs for tee shots and from the turf have worked out well and given more options than just having the Hy-Wood to cover more ground.

[Swood1994]

4 minutes ago, russtopherb said:

Looks like my round tomorrow is going to get rained out, so I'll need to see if I can get out on Sunday if possible to get some more on-course data. My plan for my next round is to bring my Mavrik Max and see if I have the opportunity to hit 2 tee shots on each hole if possible. If not, I'm sure I'll be able to walk a twilight round soon and be able to do that. 

I can't really compare the fairway and hybrid as they technically aren't replacing anything in my bag on an apples to apples basis. Both clubs are fighting my Hy-Wood for slots in the bag, and honestly there's enough of a difference to not really be able to compare. So far, in my limited experience, having both of those clubs for tee shots and from the turf have worked out well and given more options than just having the Hy-Wood to cover more ground.

The course I'm playing Saturday has a couple of long par 5's where the Hybrid comes into play. I'm going to try and be more strategic with tee shots to see if I can work the 3W into rotation. If not Sunday's round will be a 3W off the tee only round at my local par 67 course. Currently the 3W and 4H are edging ahead of my Callaways. I have yet miss the center on these clubs and I feel very confident with them in my hands. The adjustability is nice change of pace as well, even though I have not used it yet during the test.

[Shrek74]

19 minutes ago, Swood1994 said:

The course I'm playing Saturday has a couple of long par 5's where the Hybrid comes into play. I'm going to try and be more strategic with tee shots to see if I can work the 3W into rotation. If not Sunday's round will be a 3W off the tee only round at my local par 67 course. Currently the 3W and 4H are edging ahead of my Callaways. I have yet miss the center on these clubs and I feel very confident with them in my hands. The adjustability is nice change of pace as well, even though I have not used it yet during the test.

I love a good 3w. I don't know why, but it's always been one of my most comfortable clubs in my bag only behind my putter. It's been this way since my TaylorMade Firesole (bubble shaft) back in 2000. I had that thing in my bag for almost 15 years. The hybrids I have now have also become very easy to hit/use clubs and I don't hesitate to pull them out. My driver is another story - a horror story.

[Swood1994]

21 minutes ago, Shrek74 said:

I love a good 3w. I don't know why, but it's always been one of my most comfortable clubs in my bag only behind my putter. It's been this way since my TaylorMade Firesole (bubble shaft) back in 2000. I had that thing in my bag for almost 15 years. The hybrids I have now have also become very easy to hit/use clubs and I don't hesitate to pull them out. My driver is another story - a horror story.

The driver game is like a shiny new sports car that everyone wants but so many can’t drive (myself included some days). For most it’s a spot of contention in the bag and I would be hard pressed to say it tends to be the most frequently upgraded part of one’s bag. 

[Shrek74]

2 minutes ago, Swood1994 said:

The driver game is like a shiny new sports car that everyone wants but so many can’t drive (myself included some days). For most it’s a spot of contention in the bag and I would be hard pressed to say it tends to be the most frequently upgraded part of one’s bag. 

Agreed. My issue is spin more so than anything else. I don't slice and occasionally hook one. But it's excessive spin that's killing me. At 105mph, I should get more than 235 yards. Even center strikes might only get another 10.

[Swood1994]

8 minutes ago, Shrek74 said:

Agreed. My issue is spin more so than anything else. I don't slice and occasionally hook one. But it's excessive spin that's killing me. At 105mph, I should get more than 235 yards. Even center strikes might only get another 10.

Sounds like a proper fitting is in your future... 

[vandyland]

5 minutes ago, Shrek74 said:

At 105mph, I should get more than 235 yards. Even center strikes might only get another 10.

Yeah, we have to address that! Do you ever get on Trackman? Do you know what your: Attack Angle, Club Path and Dynamic Loft at impact are? I think we might find a culprit there somewhere. 

A few years ago I was swinging about 105 and getting 230-240 carry. My problem was I was playing a 12* degree driver (based on your signature that is not your problem) because I wanted "control" but I also had a negative attack angle with driver and I was swinging out to in. All of that was adding spin to the ball. I am not a "Trackman solves all problems" guy nor am I am fitter or instructor but I would think there would be something in all of their numbers if you hit 5-10 (good) shots and they were only carrying like 230. 

 

[Shrek74]

3 minutes ago, Swood1994 said:

Sounds like a proper fitting is in your future... 

I'm planning a "destination" fitting in May for my 50th bday, so I'm just holding out till then.

[russtopherb]

2 minutes ago, vandyland said:

Yeah, we have to address that! Do you ever get on Trackman? Do you know what your: Attack Angle, Club Path and Dynamic Loft at impact are? I think we might find a culprit there somewhere. 

A few years ago I was swinging about 105 and getting 230-240 carry. My problem was I was playing a 12* degree driver (based on your signature that is not your problem) because I wanted "control" but I also had a negative attack angle with driver and I was swinging out to in. All of that was adding spin to the ball. I am not a "Trackman solves all problems" guy nor am I am fitter or instructor but I would think there would be something in all of their numbers if you hit 5-10 (good) shots and they were only carrying like 230. 

 

Yeah everything so far sounds to me like a negative AoA which plagues me from time to time too. Had a few lessons to help get that ironed out but it'll still creep in when I try to really send one. At 105 with a positive AoA the driver should definitely be going more than 235. I'm around 98mph and I'm putting the ST-X 230 out there 240-250 so far. 

[Shrek74]

7 minutes ago, vandyland said:

Yeah, we have to address that! Do you ever get on Trackman? Do you know what your: Attack Angle, Club Path and Dynamic Loft at impact are? I think we might find a culprit there somewhere. 

A few years ago I was swinging about 105 and getting 230-240 carry. My problem was I was playing a 12* degree driver (based on your signature that is not your problem) because I wanted "control" but I also had a negative attack angle with driver and I was swinging out to in. All of that was adding spin to the ball. I am not a "Trackman solves all problems" guy nor am I am fitter or instructor but I would think there would be something in all of their numbers if you hit 5-10 (good) shots and they were only carrying like 230. 

 

I haven't been on TM in a while, but the last time I did was a PXG driver fitting Spring of 22 (I think). My AoA was 0-2 up, my path is in to out and I'm not sure what the DL was. They had me in a 7.5* driver turned down to 6*. I was able to get to 280, but that was 1 in every 10 shots type of thing. Just not a good result. I'm sure I'm doing something to cause the spin, either from my contact location, my wrist extension, or something. I'm seeing a swing coach now to help first with my irons, then we'll get to the driver.

[NM01]

22 minutes ago, Shrek74 said:

Agreed. My issue is spin more so than anything else. I don't slice and occasionally hook one. But it's excessive spin that's killing me. At 105mph, I should get more than 235 yards. Even center strikes might only get another 10.

 

9 minutes ago, russtopherb said:

Yeah everything so far sounds to me like a negative AoA which plagues me from time to time too. Had a few lessons to help get that ironed out but it'll still creep in when I try to really send one. At 105 with a positive AoA the driver should definitely be going more than 235. I'm around 98mph and I'm putting the ST-X 230 out there 240-250 so far. 

Negative aoa in itself doesn’t cause high spin. That has been a busted myth for some time. Now if you combine that with extreme face angle and/or face to path then yes there could be high spin. As well as dynamic loft.

People with positive aoa can be high spin players as well or have some high spin shots.

The issue is. That you are more than likely hitting it low on the face and/or towards the heel. This is going to cause spin to go up. Simple to check by using impact tape or foot spray to see exactly where contact happens.

By adjusting where the ball it’s launch and spin will change. For every 1/8” up or down spin changes by 240rpm and launch by .35°. So if it’s low on the face dialing in the driver to move contact up and more towards the toe will improve spin and launch 

[Swood1994]

3 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The issue is. That you are more than likely hitting it low on the face and/or towards the heel. This is going to cause spin to go up. Simple to check by using impact tape or foot spray to see exactly where contact happens.

I would agree but based off one of his comments he mentioned he doesn't hit a slice or hook (maybe occasionally). I would think if he has a low heel strike this would be losing the ball out short right a lot more. granted swing path and face angle play into that but I would say on average a low heel strike would result in a fade/slice most of the time. I'm not an expert but that would just be my opinion on it.
 

6 minutes ago, Shrek74 said:

I haven't been on TM in a while, but the last time I did was a PXG driver fitting Spring of 22 (I think). My AoA was 0-2 up, my path is in to out and I'm not sure what the DL was. They had me in a 7.5* driver turned down to 6*. I was able to get to 280, but that was 1 in every 10 shots type of thing. Just not a good result. I'm sure I'm doing something to cause the spin, either from my contact location, my wrist extension, or something. I'm seeing a swing coach now to help first with my irons, then we'll get to the driver.

Lowering loft doesn't always necessarily decrease spin. Again I'd say a proper fitting is best in this case. Could be a certain shaft profile coupled with a 8.5-9.5° head. in this thread if you reference my fitting notes for this test I saw a ~650RPM spin reduction solely by changing out the shaft. Swing/impact/BS/CHS all stayed relatively the same. Kai'li' Blue shaft was shorter fade 260-275 total at 3071 RPMs about 10-20' average right of center. Hzrdus Smoke black (low spin/low launch) was 288 total 7.5' average right of center at 2428 RPMs of spin.

[Shrek74]

5 minutes ago, Swood1994 said:

I would agree but based off one of his comments he mentioned he doesn't hit a slice or hook (maybe occasionally). I would think if he has a low heel strike this would be losing the ball out short right a lot more. granted swing path and face angle play into that but I would say on average a low heel strike would result in a fade/slice most of the time. I'm not an expert but that would just be my opinion on it.
 

Lowering loft doesn't always necessarily decrease spin. Again I'd say a proper fitting is best in this case. Could be a certain shaft profile coupled with a 8.5-9.5° head. in this thread if you reference my fitting notes for this test I saw a ~650RPM spin reduction solely by changing out the shaft. Swing/impact/BS/CHS all stayed relatively the same. Kai'li' Blue shaft was shorter fade 260-275 total at 3071 RPMs about 10-20' average right of center. Hzrdus Smoke black (low spin/low launch) was 288 total 7.5' average right of center at 2428 RPMs of spin.

I use the HZRDUS Smoke Yellow 60g 6.0 flex in the driver. I love the HZRDUS line and have them in all my woods/hybrids. That's what the PXG guys fit me into and it does fit my swing well. I've tried the Mits Tensei Raw Blue 6S and didn't get along with it. I may look at the Black line instead of the yellow as an option.

[NM01]

14 minutes ago, Swood1994 said:

29 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The issue is. That you are more than likely hitting it low on the face and/or towards the heel. This is going to cause spin to go up. Simple to check by using impact tape or foot spray to see exactly where contact happens.

Expand  

I would agree but based off one of his comments he mentioned he doesn't hit a slice or hook (maybe occasionally). I would think if he has a low heel strike this would be losing the ball out short right a lot more. granted swing path and face angle play into that but I would say on average a low heel strike would result in a fade/slice most of the time. I'm not an expert but that would just be my opinion on it.

Yes there are variables we don’t know so it’s possible that a heel strike isn’t happening but it’s possible that it’s only slightly heel side of center. The main culprit is probably going to be low strike. 
 

He could have a positive aoa but adding dynamic loft and contacting low on the face. This is why saying negative aoa isn’t always a cause. Having all the relevant launch monitor data and/or a swing video would help determine what’s causing the issue

[Beakbryce]

3 hours ago, Shrek74 said:

Agreed. My issue is spin more so than anything else. I don't slice and occasionally hook one. But it's excessive spin that's killing me. At 105mph, I should get more than 235 yards. Even center strikes might only get another 10.

You might want to look at this club or search for low spin options in the driver test reported on MGS. The Mizuno is plenty low spin and at your reported 105, it should help. 

[vandyland]

Mizuno STZ 230 HYBRID Lie/Loft Testing (all shots were hit off of very small tee so distances are slightly elevated vs straight off the deck)

Let me admit that I was skeptical that a hybrid needed to be adjustable. After today, I can admit that I was wrong. The amount of change you can get just from trying out the different settings is fairly significant and gives you OPTIONS that I will discuss later. First, the overall averages:

Without really looking at the dispersion (yet), the loft changes did mostly what I expected:

Highest Loft - Highest Launch, Shortest Total Distance, Highest peak height. Spin did not go crazy though. 
Lowest Loft - Lowest Launch, Longest Total Distance, Lower peak height, Spin was average. 

The Lie changes were interesting and seemed to be influencing start line the most. The dynamic lie is mostly the same for all settings. Still very cool to be able to mess around with. Anyway, here is the dispersion for all of them:

So quickly, I will toss out the Mizuno "Mid point" for being too sprayed, the "standard" for being too short and sprayed and the "higher" setting for being too short. So that leaves us with three good options:

The "low" which is the lowest loft setting was surprisingly tight and overall my favorite (this is carry distance and it rolled out the most). The upright did quite well as did the setting between the lowest loft and the upright setting. For me, I use the Hybrid as a distance club and not a surgical club. So I want accuracy but I ultimately want out and out distance. The lowest setting does that without losing the ball of the planet. My first strike with it was all I ever wanted out of this club:

Optionality
I do want to point out that there is enough of a gap and difference between the lowest setting avg carry of 233 yds and the highest setting of 220 that you basically have two clubs in one. If I got to where I had a 4 Wood (unlikely) back in my bag that I could carry 240-250 then I might want to move this to the highest setting. Or if I thought I was going to approaching greens with it more than using it off the tee. Just nice to have that in your bag and get good results out of both settings. 

SO THERE, I WAS WRONG! Adjustable hosels are very useful. 

Misses
All my misses for the most part went left. Whether they were off the toe or the heel. Now, it is important to note that I have negative face to path and positive club path. So that means that I am swinging in to out with a closed face which will generally work the ball left. What I found interesting is that heel strikes don't really move right very much. I can still block a shot if I have an open face to path (which I did a few times) but mostly this kind of shuts off the right side of the course for me. Didn't hit too many wild hooks and I love the flight with the "low" setting that starts out a smidge right and then works back.