Debate: Golfers Don't Deserve Free Relief from Fairway Divots

[silver & black]

So... as luck would have it...or not, I ended up in a divot after a very good drive to the middle of the fairway. It was a deep and long divot. By brother told me to just move the ball out of it. I remembered this topic on here and decided to take my medicine and play out of it. Since it was a long divot (8-10") it was not that hard to get a club on it and make a fairly decent shot just a few feet short of the green. I have to admit, I was tempted to take my brother up on the offer. I did par the hole. 

[DaveP043]

On 5/23/2024 at 12:26 PM, LICC said:

You and I have discussed that the biggest challenge to this is where you are not sure if something is actually a divot, but I wouldn't block the rule for that. A "divot" can be defined and most golfers know one when they see one.

IF anyone has read the USGA's discussion of this in 2018 (regarding the soon-to-take-effect rules), they'd understand that the first obstacle is the HUGE exception to playing a ball as it lies.  There are enough exceptions already, there's no need to add more.  

Separately, I WOULD block any rule that introduces additional uncertainty and differences of opinion as to what constitutes ground for relief.  Differences of interpretation mean difference treatments under the rules depending on who is doing the interpreting, which is pretty much the definition of "unfair".

Edited May 27 by DaveP043

[NM01]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

IF anyone has read the USGA's discussion of this in 2018 (regarding the soon-to-take-effect rules), they'd understand that the first obstacle is the HUGE exception to playing a ball as it lies.  There are enough exceptions already, there's no need to add more.  

Separately, I WOULD block any rule that introduces additional uncertainty and differences of opinion as to what constitutes ground for relief.  Differences of interpretation mean difference treatments under the rules depending on who is doing the interpreting, which is pretty much the definition of "unfair".

The bold part would definitely come into play on what is and isn’t a divot. Especially around when it’s no longer considered a divot that gets relief from

[FrogginBullfish]

4 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

IF anyone has read the USGA's discussion of this in 2018 (regarding the soon-to-take-effect rules), they'd understand that the first obstacle is the HUGE exception to playing a ball as it lies.  There are enough exceptions already, there's no need to add more.  

Separately, I WOULD block any rule that introduces additional uncertainty and differences of opinion as to what constitutes ground for relief.  Differences of interpretation mean difference treatments under the rules depending on who is doing the interpreting, which is pretty much the definition of "unfair".

I'm not a rules expert, nor do I mind either way whether a rule about free relief from divots is ever enacted, but could the language about relief from divots not be similar to the rule about spikemarks on greens?

[NM01]

1 minute ago, FrogginBullfish said:

I'm not a rules expert, nor do I mind either way whether a rule about free relief from divots is ever enacted, but could the language about relief from divots not be similar to the rule about spikemarks on greens?

Curious what you mean. With spikemarks or any imperfection on the green the player is allowed to repair restore green to as close to original condition.

Is your suggestion that the player gets relief from any imperfection in the fairway?  
 

if so then that changes the basis for the basis of golf and play the ball as it lies.

[Philpug]

I had to ask myself now, why can you be in a divot and not get relief but if there is a ball mark/divot in your line in the putting green you can fix that? 

[DaveP043]

31 minutes ago, FrogginBullfish said:

I'm not a rules expert, nor do I mind either way whether a rule about free relief from divots is ever enacted, but could the language about relief from divots not be similar to the rule about spikemarks on greens?

 

26 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Curious what you mean. With spikemarks or any imperfection on the green the player is allowed to repair restore green to as close to original condition.

Is your suggestion that the player gets relief from any imperfection in the fairway?  
 

if so then that changes the basis for the basis of golf and play the ball as it lies.

Further to this, the Putting Green has been treated as.a.kind of special place since about 1960.  That was when you were first allowed to mark and lift your ball at will, and to repair certain types of damage to improve your line of play.  The permissions regarding the Putting Green have increased as conditions of Putting Greens have improved.  The fairway has not yet been treated as a special place, its just part of the General Area, and you're not allowed to improved the Conditions Affecting The Stroke anywhere but the Green. 

[Donn lost in San Diego]

On 5/26/2024 at 9:04 PM, GolferXY said:

I hit a drive 250 [great for me] and had 80 yards left to the hole.  I was dancing.  Until I saw that my ball was in a divot.  Perfectly snuggled up to the deep front edge of the divot.  So I pulled the 58 out of the bag and dropped that ball 10 feet from the hole.  Best shot of the day and I walked away feeling like I had accomplished something.  

Honestly, I hate the added difficulty of hitting out of someone else's attempt at recreating the Erie Canal, but when I pull it off I feel like,  if I can do that, an 80 yard pitch from a perfect lie should be a snap.

But really. Replace your divots.  If I can do it, anyone can.

Your experience is a Tom Watson type.  He wouldn't complain about a bad break, he would "muscle up" and demoralize his competitors by making the shot. Or at least that's what a caddie said about him.  

[FrogginBullfish]

13 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

 

Further to this, the Putting Green has been treated as.a.kind of special place since about 1960.  That was when you were first allowed to mark and lift your ball at will, and to repair certain types of damage to improve your line of play.  The permissions regarding the Putting Green have increased as conditions of Putting Greens have improved.  The fairway has not yet been treated as a special place, its just part of the General Area, and you're not allowed to improved the Conditions Affecting The Stroke anywhere but the Green. 

Again, I don't really care either way on the divot debate, but given the difficulty in writing a rule to provide relief for divots, would that not be the simplest way forward if that's something the ruling bodies want to do? 

[DaveP043]

7 hours ago, FrogginBullfish said:

Again, I don't really care either way on the divot debate, but given the difficulty in writing a rule to provide relief for divots, would that not be the simplest way forward if that's something the ruling bodies want to do? 

I don't think so.  On the Putting Green, you can repair damage, but you cannot move your ball.  If you lift it, you must replace it to its original location.  I'm not sure how that would apply to divots, since the location of your ball is a 3-dimensional thing.  If you lift your ball from a divot hole,  "repair" the divot and replace your ball, you'll have changed its location, you'll have raised it vertically.  So the "spikemark repair" wording wouldn't really work with divot holes  And most advocates would really prefer that you simply move your ball out of that divot hole, chich becomes a completely different thing from repairig damage to a Putting Green.  

And all of this accepts the possibility that the Ruling Bodies actually do want to give relief from divot holes.  They've indicated pretty clearly that they do not.

[NM01]

8 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

And all of this accepts the possibility that the Ruling Bodies actually do want to give relief from divot holes.  They've indicated pretty clearly that they do not

I haven’t read their discussions on looking at this. Is their thought process it changes the fundamental aspect of play it as it lies or is it more about being unable to write a rule that is interpreted the same by everyone?

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I haven’t read their discussions on looking at this. Is their thought process it changes the fundamental aspect of play it as it lies or is it more about being unable to write a rule that is interpreted the same by everyone?

This came out in 2018, if I remember right.

https://digital-plt.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/text/changes-not-addressed.html

As you say, its part of the concerns with the basic principle of playing the ball as it lies.  Divot relief would be a step too far.  The difficulty of writing a clear rule is mentioned as a.secondary concern.

[Philpug]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I'm not sure how that would apply to divots, since the location of your ball is a 3-dimensional thing.  If you lift your ball from a divot hole,  "repair" the divot and replace your ball, you'll have changed its location, you'll have raised it vertically.

Like Ground Under Repair. To take relief, you must find the nearest point of complete relief from the ground under repair and drop your original ball or another ball away from the ground under repair and within one club-length of that point not nearer the hole (see Rule 16.1).

[DaveP043]

13 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I'm not sure how that would apply to divots, since the location of your ball is a 3-dimensional thing.  If you lift your ball from a divot hole,  "repair" the divot and replace your ball, you'll have changed its location, you'll have raised it vertically. 

10 hours ago, Philpug said:

Like Ground Under Repair. To take relief, you must find the nearest point of complete relief from the ground under repair and drop your original ball or another ball away from the ground under repair and within one club-length of that point not nearer the hole (see Rule 16.1).

I'm not sure I understand your point here.  Unless you're comparing a divot hole to one of the specifically defined types of Abnormal Course Condition.

[NM01]

30 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'm not sure I understand your point here.  Unless you're comparing a divot hole to one of the specifically defined types of Abnormal Course Condition.

That’s what it sounds like. Which that topic has already been discussed in the thread on how it’s not the same.

[LICC]

The rules allow for free relief when your ball touches or is in an animal hole, defined in the USGA Rules as:

Animal Hole

Any hole dug in the ground by an animal, except for holes dug by animals that are also defined as loose impediments (such as worms or insects).

The term animal hole includes:

The loose material the animal dug out of the hole,

Any worn-down track or trail leading into the hole, and

Any area on the ground pushed up or altered as a result of the animal digging the hole underground.

Is the level of uncertainty around a divot hole really that much different from an animal hole? Does straying from the "play it as it lies" principle get justified by the ball touching loose impediments from an animal hole but not from a divot?

These types of inconsistencies are what is most frustrating in the rules. I can disagree but respect the play it where it lies concept for divots and animal holes alike, but I'm finding it hard to justify a different rule for one and not the other. If the animal hole was a sensitive area or dangerous area, there are other rules that cover those situations. This is under the abnormal course conditions rule and it seems inconsistent.

[FrogginBullfish]

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/rules-of-golf-review-why-you-cannot-take-free-relief-from-a-divot-hole/amp

[MissionMan]

I think golf should reward good shots. When you hit a shot in the centre of the fairway and some idiot before you hasn't filled their divot, you're not punishing the offender.

That said, I am in favour of stricter punishments for people in comps who don't rake bunkers, fix marks on greens and filling divots. We have some serial offenders at our course. A mix of young and old, youngsters who don't care, and old people who think its beneath them. I'm of the view that if people are caught, you prevent them from having early bookings so they more likely to suffering the fate of their victims.

[NM01]

8 minutes ago, FrogginBullfish said:

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/rules-of-golf-review-why-you-cannot-take-free-relief-from-a-divot-hole/amp

Basically what several of us have been saying and Davep posted. Maintaining the basic principal of golf with play it as it lies. I like how they touched on the accept The outcome good or bad.

While I have many issues with decisions they USGA and R&A make they have done a good job of late with rule changes that have made some easier to understand and implement and to help speed up the pace of play, while also maintaining the basic fundamentals of golf and playing the ball as it lies and  improving the lie of the ball or one stance.

 

2.  Preserving the Fundamental Challenge of the Game

Play the ball as it lies – In its simplest form, golf is about playing the ball from tee to green by hitting it with a golf club, and not otherwise touching the ball. A fundamental challenge of the sport is to deal with whatever position your ball comes to rest in – whether good or bad. While there are some necessary exceptions (such as obstructions and other abnormal course conditions), the essential nature of golf means these must remain exceptions rather than the norm. Therefore, the new Rules do not provide relief without penalty from situations that some golfers complain about, such as when their ball comes to rest in a divot hole on a fairway or in footprints in a poorly raked bunker. In addition to being contrary to the fundamental principle of playing the ball as it lies, providing free relief in such circumstances would make the Rules harder to apply (for example, what is the difference between an irregularity of surface and an old divot hole?) and could slow down play when there are difficult questions about what is or isn’t a divot hole.
 

Prohibitions against improving the “conditions affecting the stroke” - In conjunction with “play the ball as it lies,” the fundamental principle of “play the course as you find it” helps reinforce that players need to accept the outcome of their previous stroke (good or bad) and play the ball from where it comes to rest. The core restrictions that support this principle (namely, prohibiting improvements to the lie of the ball, the area of stance or swing and the line of play) are maintained in the new Rules.

[DaveP043]

12 hours ago, MissionMan said:

I think golf should reward good shots. When you hit a shot in the centre of the fairway and some idiot before you hasn't filled their divot, you're not punishing the offender.

That said, I am in favour of stricter punishments for people in comps who don't rake bunkers, fix marks on greens and filling divots. We have some serial offenders at our course. A mix of young and old, youngsters who don't care, and old people who think its beneath them. I'm of the view that if people are caught, you prevent them from having early bookings so they more likely to suffering the fate of their victims.

You're not punishing anyone, even the poor guy who has a slightly more challenging shot.  He still has the advantage of NOT being in the trees, NOT being in knee-high grass, having an unimpeded line forward, many of the normal advantages of a fairway.

How would you write your rule about lack of care for the course, considering that rules are to be applied BY each player on his own actions?  Of course you can have Conditions of Competition that provide discipline on issues outside of the Rules of Golf, or golf course policies about tee times, go ahead and suggest those to your course management.  

19 hours ago, LICC said:

These types of inconsistencies are what is most frustrating in the rules. I can disagree but respect the play it where it lies concept for divots and animal holes alike, but I'm finding it hard to justify a different rule for one and not the other.

Rules require drawing lines, sometimes a little arbitrary.  If divot relief is allowed, its a tiny additional step to allow relief from a mower scrape, or a low spot where temporarily pooled water has damaged the grass.  And how do you tell what has caused damage, something natural or something artificial?  Where is any line drawn?  Is any one choice intrinsically better than another one?  As for divots, they were around before the first rules were written, so in my mind thay're "grandfathered" in, and form a kind of dividing line between ACCs and "play hard" situations.  

[MissionMan]

31 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

You're not punishing anyone, even the poor guy who has a slightly more challenging shot.  He still has the advantage of NOT being in the trees, NOT being in knee-high grass, having an unimpeded line forward, many of the normal advantages of a fairway.

How would you write your rule about lack of care for the course, considering that rules are to be applied BY each player on his own actions?  Of course you can have Conditions of Competition that provide discipline on issues outside of the Rules of Golf, or golf course policies about tee times, go ahead and suggest those to your course management.  

Rules require drawing lines, sometimes a little arbitrary.  If divot relief is allowed, its a tiny additional step to allow relief from a mower scrape, or a low spot where temporarily pooled water has damaged the grass.  And how do you tell what has caused damage, something natural or something artificial?  Where is any line drawn?  Is any one choice intrinsically better than another one?  As for divots, they were around before the first rules were written, so in my mind thay're "grandfathered" in, and form a kind of dividing line between ACCs and "play hard" situations.  

Bad divots can be brutal. It’s no better than being in the rough if someone left a once inch deep chunk out of the fairway.

As for rules, a number of local courses do exactly that. A friend of mine is greenskeeper at a course where they will issue a warning for people for not raking bunkers in comps, or serial offenders when it comes to not putting sand in divots, typically once of offences aren’t the problem, they are worried about those who just don’t do it and the warning is enough to make them pull their heads in. After a warning, second offence and they get banned for one month from comps because their actions are impeding players behind them, third offence results in a 3 month ban, etc.

[Stuka44]

18 hours ago, MissionMan said:

I think golf should reward good shots.

 

And my logic listed somewhere earlier in this thread, is met with similar responses.  Someone may want relief from a mower scrape, this or that imperfection, etc.  blah, blah.  So as you stated, you are in fact penalized because "some players", may want to CHEAT MORE.  Afterall, does anyone think that someone who is going to cheat them in a match, about a divot, is only cheating them about a divot.  Sure they aren't!

  And if its not about blatant cheating, then I am 100% ok with the following.   If based on the "very best definition", and honest interpretation,  of what is, or still is and isn't a divot, and for a million dollars , our rules official gives my opponent, relief from something, that would be a 5-5, or 6-4 or any other even a 9-1, and he does it honestly(now maybe the 9-1 judge who is the only one out of 10 to say it is, is incompetent and needs to be removed as a judge) , SUPER NO PROBLEM, because its more important to me that I get my relief from what is a freshly gouged, 1000-0, divot that nobody can mistake.

 

  

[GolferXY]

6 hours ago, MissionMan said:

You're not punishing anyone, even the poor guy who has a slightly more challenging shot. 

I'm a "play it as it lies" guy.  However, hitting a great tee shot to the middle of the fairway and a perfect lie only to find your ball in a divot is punishment, doled out by an inconsiderate golfer on a fellow golfer whose only indiscretion was to hit a perfect shot.  

Replace your divots. Rake the sand.

Hitting from a minor imperfection is one thing.  Hitting from a larger/deeper divot is more than slightly challenging.  Finding your ball in this position may make you complain of the whims of golf; it may make you gripe about inconsiderate golfers; it may make you regret that you don't have the necessary skills to pull off such a shot.  But you still have to make the swing and live with the results and the impact of others' inconsiderate actions.

Replace your divots.  Rake the sand.  Please.

[DaveP043]

7 hours ago, MissionMan said:

As for rules, a number of local courses do exactly that. A friend of mine is greenskeeper at a course where they will issue a warning for people for not raking bunkers in comps, or serial offenders when it comes to not putting sand in divots, typically once of offences aren’t the problem, they are worried about those who just don’t do it and the warning is enough to make them pull their heads in. After a warning, second offence and they get banned for one month from comps because their actions are impeding players behind them, third offence results in a 3 month ban, etc.

I hope you realize that this is NOT a Rules of Golf issue, its an additional rule governing qualifications to play in your competitions.  And I fully endorse it, I hate seeing a golf course not being cared for.

[MissionMan]

34 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I hope you realize that this is NOT a Rules of Golf issue, its an additional rule governing qualifications to play in your competitions.  And I fully endorse it, I hate seeing a golf course not being cared for.

100% realise that, but let’s also not forget that when a comp is underway, professional players have a caddie around doing the raking, divot filling etc. They’ll also have course staff going around fixing any course indiscretions so professional players live by a separate set of standards to us. If they hit a bunker, they’re going to have a lie that has no chance of being in someone’s unraked footprint.

They said, because we live in an area with a lot of rain, we have winter rules that allow you to clean your bell and place with one hand of the original position, but only on fairways. This is primarily because it’s possible to hit a fairway find the ball next to your pitch mark with mud on it. 

[MissionMan]

2 hours ago, Stuka44 said:

 

And my logic listed somewhere earlier in this thread, is met with similar responses.  Someone may want relief from a mower scrape, this or that imperfection, etc.  blah, blah.  So as you stated, you are in fact penalized because "some players", may want to CHEAT MORE.  Afterall, does anyone think that someone who is going to cheat them in a match, about a divot, is only cheating them about a divot.  Sure they aren't!

  And if its not about blatant cheating, then I am 100% ok with the following.   If based on the "very best definition", and honest interpretation,  of what is, or still is and isn't a divot, and for a million dollars , our rules official gives my opponent, relief from something, that would be a 5-5, or 6-4 or any other even a 9-1, and he does it honestly(now maybe the 9-1 judge who is the only one out of 10 to say it is, is incompetent and needs to be removed as a judge) , SUPER NO PROBLEM, because its more important to me that I get my relief from what is a freshly gouged, 1000-0, divot that nobody can mistake.

 

  

And yet, if your ball plugs on the fairway you get free relief. If it’s an animal scratching, you get free relief. There are already rules that improve the play it add it loses concept. 

[NM01]

1 hour ago, MissionMan said:

And yet, if your ball plugs on the fairway you get free relief. If it’s an animal scratching, you get free relief. There are already rules that improve the play it add it loses concept. 

Those are considered abnormal conditions. Very different from a divot.

But as I have stated the rules don’t need to be changed. You can use the existing rules and get relief from what we you want in the fairway. You or your group can declare the round will be using preferred lies and you can lift clean and place your ball and still use the score for handicap.

use the existing to your advantage rather that advocating for a rule change that defeats the fundamental aspect of play it as it lies.

 

[MissionMan]

2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Those are considered abnormal conditions. Very different from a divot.

But as I have stated the rules don’t need to be changed. You can use the existing rules and get relief from what we you want in the fairway. You or your group can declare the round will be using preferred lies and you can lift clean and place your ball and still use the score for handicap.

use the existing to your advantage rather that advocating for a rule change that defeats the fundamental aspect of play it as it lies.

 

Abnormal conditions? You haven't seen some of the members at my golf course. They would definitely qualify as animals 

It's not a huge issue in the grand scheme of things. The amount of times you land in a divot on a fairway is actually really minor anyway. 

[Philpug]

It is also a different game than when this rule was written. Even mid handicapers are compressing the ball now where it used to be just the top players and when this was written how common were divots? 

[NM01]

8 hours ago, Philpug said:

It is also a different game than when this rule was written. Even mid handicapers are compressing the ball now where it used to be just the top players and when this was written how common were divots? 

Not sure what mid handicap players you play with but most mid caps aren’t actually compressing the ball anywhere near the level of the top players and most don’t compress it all. There are single digits who don’t have a swing that properly compresses the ball. I’m one of them. I’ve stood next to pros on the range, have played with several scratch or near scratch golfers in a past forum life as well as in scrambles hosted by one of my vendors. The way the ball sounds off their clubs is night and day compared to a mid cap.

most mid caps are taking a divot that starts before the ball not after it.

even if this was the case it’s not even close to a strong argument to change a rule that changes the fundamental aspect of golf and playing the ball as it lies

Edited May 31 by RickyBobby_PR