Pace of play

[EnderinAZ]

7 hours ago, Skootgolfer1972 said:

Golf courses should give discounts money back or credits for finishing under certain timeframe. Under 4.5 hours get $10 discount or something and penalize if over 5 hours. There’s some options out there, but gotta make it worth doing or not doing and have to have good rangers out there to keep groups from holding up fast moving groups or let them play through. 

That is never going to happen. Golf courses are a business first and foremost. Those of us who can play fast are a minority by a large margin. 

 

[Brett Knutsen]

10 minutes ago, pboyle119 said:

It is critical to play the proper tees which doesn't happen as much as it should. Too many times I see players who are more than likely high handicappers playing from the back tees struggling to get off that tee thereby slowing play considerably. Courses need to implement handicap requirements to play tees and enforce them as much as possible. Also, if you are taking your 9th shot on a par 4, pick it up and move on, its not going to affect your handicap making a 10 or more.

I have definitely seen this as well.  Had a group in front of us a few weeks back that were hitting off the tips, but couldn't hit a ball straight or more than 180 to 200 yards.  We finally walked up and told them to hit off the most forward tees.  They were new and had no idea.  Group actually said thanks and that they enjoyed it that way more.

[EnderinAZ]

4 hours ago, SteddyGolf said:

 In my experience it is your mid handicappers between 10 and 20 who slow things down the most.  They usually play in groups which try to emulate what that see on TV.  They spend an inordinate amount of time on the greens, use their range finders far too often and fiddle with their scorecards greenside opposed to moving on to the next hole.  A large majority of them mark every putt and putt out every ball.  While putting out in money games, tournaments or for handicap purposes is a must; in casual rounds one foot putts are general conceded in a gentlemen's game.  If each group adds just one minute per hole for any reason that amounts to an additionally 20 minutes per round.  Time adds up quick!   

Bingo! I used to golf with a regular foursome where the other three guys all hit their balls almost the same exact distance. Three balls in the fairway, not 15 feet apart they would all grab their range finders, scope the flag, then argue about the yard difference between the range finders. Used to drive me nuts. I would yell at them "What are you arguing about 185 versus 187 yards for??? None of you can hit the green from here anyway!!!" 

[SecondandGoal]

34 minutes ago, mssmdny said:

For courses that routinely reach 5 hours on peak days- what do you think of the greens fee being for 4 hours  15 minutes, not 18 holes.

at 4:15 a ranger picks you  up and you are  done - 

incentivize everyone to play on time.

 

 

Novel idea, but completely unfair to all the groups stuck behind the slow group.

 

[hoppman]

1 hour ago, toncol said:

"I agree, that's my experience in the US.  Yet at many courses in Scotland, the expectation is 3:45, and 3:30 is pretty common, for 4 players all walking.  Course design has an impact, but the attitude of players is also a factor.  The locals just play more efficiently.

Agree completely.  At my home course I'm pretty happy at 4 hours, even though I like to play faster, and I only begin to complain when it gets over 4:30."

 

Agree 100% with the above.

When I'm in Ireland, the pace of play is noticeably quicker, and over there it's regarded as a walking game.  IMO it's mostly to do with the design of the courses.  Over there, tees and greens are relatively close to each other.  Here, they often aren't as many courses are designed with carts in mind.  But, carts are an important element in the financial plan of a course operation, and so they aren't going away unfortunately.  For such courses, 4-4.15 with 10 min intervals is probably the best one could hope for.  There is also a player "attitude" aspect.  Over there, unless it's match play, no-one cares who's "away".  You get to your ball, you check that others aren't in your way or swinging themselves, and you hit and move on.  Even when it is match play which it often is, the issue of whose turn it is usually is only observed on the green.  There's also a sense over there of a player's place in the big picture...people recognize that they have a responsibility to move along.  What we don't do enough of here is coach newer golfers on some of the basics.  Replace your divots, fix pitch marks, when you've already reached double par or whatever, pick up and move along.  We also don't do enough to make sure players play the right tees.  It seems to be an ego thing, wanting to play the "Big Boy" tees.  How shooting 110 from there could be good for your ego is a mystery to me.  One of the best signs I've ever seen...on the wall of a course in SW Ireland  "Your place on the course is behind the group in front of you, NOT in front of the group behind you"

Go play Ballybunion and tell me Ireland is fast, not my experience, 5:45 with caddies. We waited on every hole after 3 due to tour bus groups in front of us playing everything out. Their fore caddie quit because it took too long. 

Old Head was 4:30, but no waiting, 3 of us had carts, 1 walked. 

The 4 other courses were probably around 4 hours, I only played 9 holes on 2 courses due to leg and back issues. 

Neither Old Head or Ballybunion have green and tees right together, still plenty of walking or driving in between holes. 

[Clubs by Buzz]

Mandatory hcp check to play longer tees.  Too many "I want to play it like the pros play it."

Except you don't hit it 290 and hit a wedge 150. So 440 is a driver. Long iron/ HB. Chip and 2 putt minimum. Plus lost balls because you don't keep it in play. 

Let's say all that nonsense cost you only 2 minutes per hole. You now added 30 plus minutes to the round. 

PLAY IF FORWARD.  PLEASE! 

 

[hoppman]

Heard a story in Ireland at Old Head, caddie had a player that shot 147 on 9 holes, the player made sure to hole everything out, this is ridiculous if true. 

[YamYam]

More and more we are seeing traditionally medal run competitions being replaced by stablefords.

The stableford format was created and formulated to offer visiting societies and large groups of lesser skillful golfers to play with better players at other courses so that pace of play would not hamper the pace of the members. 

All very good when the maximum handicap was 28, which meant that at most an actual 28 handicapper would have only two extra shots on 10 of the holes on the course.  After playing those shots out and not being able to score any stableford points on that particular hole, the idea was that they picked their ball up and moved on to the next hole.

The problem now is that the maximum handicap has been raised to 54.  So a hack who has a 54 handicap actually has 3 shots extra to play every hole.  So if the easiest hole on the course is a par 3, that hack has 6 shots for par and 7 for a bogey before they are obliged to pick up.

It gets worse!  I was talking with a guy the other day, (a county scratch senior player), who, on his travels happened upon a course where the slope rating meant that a 54 handicapper actually received 67 shots - yes, that another 13 strokes on top the excessive 54 they already have.  So effectively they have 5 shots on every hole indexed from 1 to 13 to achieve bogey.

How in the hell has this been thought out?

I'm not saying that this is the sole reason for slower play, hell, there are some really slow low handicappers about, but surely this cannot help matters. 

[SteddyGolf]

14 minutes ago, EnderinAZ said:

Bingo! I used to golf with a regular foursome where the other three guys all hit their balls almost the same exact distance. Three balls in the fairway, not 15 feet apart they would all grab their range finders, scope the flag, then argue about the yard difference between the range finders. Used to drive me nuts. I would yell at them "What are you arguing about 185 versus 187 yards for??? None of you can hit the green from here anyway!!!" 

LOL, I was trying not to go there, LOL But yes that really is a pet peeve of mine as well.  Even worse are those who are pulling out their range finders for chip shots.  Kills me!  

[EnderinAZ]

Play speed starts where you pay the guy the money for the round. Post a large whiteboard that gives the local rules and why. Here in the winter as others have stated the courses get really full.  So on the whiteboard post that there are 225 players on the course today, please adhere to the following rules. 

1. Out of bounds must be played as a dropped ball, in the fairway approximately where the ball went out. Please do not search for your ball longer than 2 minutes. Marshals are on the course to assist in ball hunting and to enforce the two-minute rule. 

2. Drinks and snacks can be purchased at the tee boxes only! (Then ensure the girl follows that rule)

There are a bunch of other rules of this type that can be adjusted on a daily basis. 225 people on a course, the round is going to be slow. Post that. Let people know what is expected of them, then enforce those expectations. If the course management is only worried about numbers and throughput then no one who works there will care either and play will be slow. 

 

[RTGOLF]

4-41/2 hours is acceptable, for me.  I think rounds will become longer as tracks fill up with the youtube inspired generation. The focus seems to be on “fun golf” radios etc. not “ready golf” or fast play. 

[Collar]

Covid has fueled the pace of play epidemic here in NJ. I have had the misfortune to be teamed up with several new players. In almost every instance, they went directly to the back tees. Several times, the ranger has come along and, after watching a hole, asked them to move up to an appropriate tee for their skill level. Of course,that results in an argument. The standard answer I've heard is, I paid my money and will play from whatever tees I want. Only one course told a guy, please go to the cashier for a refund and leave the course. My two regular 4somes play in an average 3 to 3:15 when we're lucky enough to get the 1st time. Covid has been both a positive and a negative for the game. It's brought new people to the game but has worsened the epidemic of slow play. Course manger's should be given more leeway to put the faster groups out early, improving the experience for everyone.

[hockey_dad]

We belong to a semi private club that lets out fivesomes. Early morning fivesomes can get the course done in less than 4 hours with ready golf, as the course is tight and there is very little walking between holes. 

The biggest hinderance I've seen to pace of play is slow players taking too much time for routines and practice swings and standing over the ball too long before they swing. We played with a player who had the longest routine and then would stand over the ball for what seemed like an eternity before he hit the ball, including his putting stroke. That would have been fine but the guys he was with, as our twosome was paired up with the three of them, did not seem to care that we were two holes behind and did not walk faster between shots to make up any time. My friend and I started to feel rushed because we did not want to be that far behind the group in front of us and being pushed by the group behind.

I don't mind if the course is slow. I've learned not to get angry at 4 and half hour rounds and to enjoy the wait between shots with conversation, but when you're in a group with slow players and you are behind the group in front and pushed from behind that is stressful. I don't know how we could have made it more clear to these guys that we needed to speed up play, we walking off as soon as they hit and were 30 yards ahead of them all the time. Some people just don't care about pace and feel that 4 and half to 5 hours is acceptable. 

I think someone mentioned that if you like to play fast, early morning tee times are the best times to go out, and I completely agree with that, and generally try to stick to those tee times. When I play in the afternoons, it's a different mindset and you can't get mad at the slow pace of play as there are generally less skilled players playing in the later tee times. I think self awareness from some players about their pace is more the issue, as some people just don't care that they are behind or if people are pushing them from the back. 

Ready golf should always be the played when you are not playing in matches or competitive rounds. That contributes tremendously to the pace of play.

[choski00]

My anecdotal experience as a busy professional trying to save time on golf rounds:

1. I find early rounds near the opening tee times are commonly the quickest, as many early morning golfers have places to be that day.

2. I avoid weekends, if possible, for quicker rounds.

3. Ready golf always, putter length and closer are gimmes unless it's a money match. Additionally, make your max score per hole double par. Hit double par? Pick it up and move on.

I know most if not all of these were probably mentioned previously in this thread 

Edited Monday at 08:39 PM by choski00

[Don O]

Ugh, I just HATE slow play. Main thing I see as a problem is people just not playing ready golf. At most "regular" courses (i.e. not super-tough, really challenging courses) I honestly think a foursome should take 4 hours, max, and unless someone in the group is just really bad and always having to search for balls I think 3.5 should be the standard. I'm a member at an old-school club that is a fun member course, with only a couple holes that have real trouble. We can routinely get around under 4 hours. Many days, I'm out first either by myself or with a buddy, and it's normally 2.5 hours or less and don't feel like we're hurrying at all. 

[choski00]

1 minute ago, Don O said:

Ugh, I just HATE slow play. Main thing I see as a problem is people just not playing ready golf. At most "regular" courses (i.e. not super-tough, really challenging courses) I honestly think a foursome should take 4 hours, max, and unless someone in the group is just really bad and always having to search for balls I think 3.5 should be the standard. I'm a member at an old-school club that is a fun member course, with only a couple holes that have real trouble. We can routinely get around under 4 hours. Many days, I'm out first either by myself or with a buddy, and it's normally 2.5 hours or less and don't feel like we're hurrying at all. 

I agree, I find even players with longer preshot routines commonly are fine if they play ready golf.

[choski00]

In lighter related news, I had my first sub 3 hour round for a full 18 ever last week. 6:30AM tee time on Friday. Played from 6200 yards, which were the tips, shorter course. 

[golfr]

Another interesting factor in this whole discussion, the definition of "ready golf" is not really clear.  It means different things to different players (as I've learned over the years). 

For example, I ask all the time, are we playing ready golf today?  And every stranger will say, "yes, that's what we do".  But then, the first time there's a "ready golf moment", they aren't hitting?  And if you ask "I thought we were playing ready golf".  the answer is something like "oh yeah, but you had a birdie so I was waiting for you to tee off".  OR, they aren't putting, and they look at you walking over "oh, you're away".  uh.....but that's not ready golf (to me at least)?!?  

The worst is the putting green, with my normal group, we all read and line up putts at the same time (obviously, as long as they don't interfere with each other), then stop momentarily when it's whoever's turn to hit.  But man, you'd think I was committing a golf sin if I line up a put on the other side of the hole while some people are getting themselves ready to putt.  They aren't even close to putting yet, they are just looking or lining up, but they will stop and say "oh, go ahead".  NO!, I'm just getting ready so I can hit when it's my turn and we can be faster.

Edited Monday at 04:48 PM by golfr

[chisag]

... Wow, 5 pages and no consensus.   And I think that is by far the biggest issue with pace of play. Expecting others to play just like you do. Regulars on MGS know my mantra: people are either considerate or inconsiderate. That covers almost every issue in life and on a golf course. You are either aware that you are sharing a course with others that may feel like a round should take 3.5 hours while others that think 4.5 hours is just fine. Exactly why I think a 4 hour round is something to strive for because it is a good compromise and coincidently pretty much the standard expectations for most courses. 

... The amount of times I have been paired up with a slow group that falls behind a full hole and I mention the tee box behind us is stacking up and they get that blank look on their face and turn around to see what I am talking about clearly having no concept there were other players on the course. They are teeing off with nobody in front of them so they have no idea what it is like to wait because they never have to. I have to think if they played behind a super slow group and they had to wait for every shot they might feel quite differently.

... In the end you are either considerate or inconsiderate and care about your pace of play or you don't. What I find interesting from a psychological perspective is most inconsiderate people don't think they are inconsiderate.  Thankfully most fall into the former but there are still too many that fall into the latter. As long as that is the case, there will always be a pace of play issue. 

Edited Monday at 06:29 PM by chisag

[Rix]

7 hours ago, huggydougy said:

You should be able to play at your own pace

Let faster players play thru

And enjoy your time on the corse

and THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^ is exactly why we are discussing this. While “Letting faster players through” can help, your already slow play has had a domino effect on a bunch of groups behind you. At what point of your round did you finally come to this decision? Was it on #4 when you first lost sight of the group in front or #8 when you were already more than a hole behind? Do what you must to keep up with the group in front of you!

 

[Dbldips]

I play at a private club, believe me we have issues with slo-play, but it is much better than slo-play at public places, 5 hours no way! Our norm is 4-415 for foursomes and 345 for 3somes, we always use carts virtually  no one walks, 10 min intervals.

Club ownership is committed to fast play to the point that design has been changed, removal of trees, reducing rough areas and height, cleaning wooded areas and  adding RPAs where none existed previously. Of course some of those things have cost money but over time are improving everyone's golfing experience. 

One other comment, I play with a group that travels both in and out of state and get to see a lot of courses, why are GC architects so bent on creating courses that are so hard that the general golfing public can't play them. Forced carries, tight fairways, lurking wooded areas, bunkers galore?? If you have ever played an older course designed back in the day and it has been restored or kept to their original designs, I think you will see a significant difference with modern tracks. They tend to be much more subtle, fairways more generous, rough cut so you can find balls, but still challenging. 

 

[LarryLondon]

Play ready golf.

Have the course laser each par 3 and post for each tee box. Save considerable time each group lasering the pin.

Leave your clubs at the back of the green.

Always try to keep pace with the group in front of you.

 

 

[funkyjudge]

1 hour ago, hockey_dad said:

We belong to a semi private club that lets out fivesomes. Early morning fivesomes can get the course done in less than 4 hours with ready golf, as the course is tight and there is very little walking between holes. 

The biggest hinderance I've seen to pace of play is slow players taking too much time for routines and practice swings and standing over the ball too long before they swing. We played with a player who had the longest routine and then would stand over the ball for what seemed like an eternity before he hit the ball, including his putting stroke. That would have been fine but the guys he was with, as our twosome was paired up with the three of them, did not seem to care that we were two holes behind and did not walk faster between shots to make up any time. My friend and I started to feel rushed because we did not want to be that far behind the group in front of us and being pushed by the group behind.

I don't mind if the course is slow. I've learned not to get angry at 4 and half hour rounds and to enjoy the wait between shots with conversation, but when you're in a group with slow players and you are behind the group in front and pushed from behind that is stressful. I don't know how we could have made it more clear to these guys that we needed to speed up play, we walking off as soon as they hit and were 30 yards ahead of them all the time. Some people just don't care about pace and feel that 4 and half to 5 hours is acceptable. 

I think someone mentioned that if you like to play fast, early morning tee times are the best times to go out, and I completely agree with that, and generally try to stick to those tee times. When I play in the afternoons, it's a different mindset and you can't get mad at the slow pace of play as there are generally less skilled players playing in the later tee times. I think self awareness from some players about their pace is more the issue, as some people just don't care that they are behind or if people are pushing them from the back. 

Ready golf should always be the played when you are not playing in matches or competitive rounds. That contributes tremendously to the pace of play.

If I ever played with a golfer who takes as long as Tom Kim (or Patrick Cantlay) before hitting their shots, I would probably run screaming all the way to the parking lot. Yes, I know that those guys are playing for a lot of money, but three minutes of discussion and debate regarding club selection, wind strength and direction, etc., then changing clubs twice before taking three practice swings, addressing the ball, stepping away, then standing over the ball another 30-45 seconds prior to beginning the backswing is just too darn much!

There is one guy on my Monday evening team who takes multiple practice swings (often 5 or 6 of them), and then stands over his ball long enough to say a long prayer before he swings. All of the rest of us have talked with him about this many, many times to no avail. I cringe whenever I get paired with him (luckily, my league handicap is significantly lower than his, so that rarely happens), or, God-forbid, if I am playing in a foursome behind him. Thankfully, tonight he will be playing in the group behind me and we probably will never see him back there after our first hole. I bet that my foursome will finish 45 minutes to an hour before his as long as we don’t get slowed-down by some other pokey golfers ahead of us.

[funkyjudge]

57 minutes ago, Don O said:

Ugh, I just HATE slow play. Main thing I see as a problem is people just not playing ready golf. At most "regular" courses (i.e. not super-tough, really challenging courses) I honestly think a foursome should take 4 hours, max, and unless someone in the group is just really bad and always having to search for balls I think 3.5 should be the standard. I'm a member at an old-school club that is a fun member course, with only a couple holes that have real trouble. We can routinely get around under 4 hours. Many days, I'm out first either by myself or with a buddy, and it's normally 2.5 hours or less and don't feel like we're hurrying at all. 

Amen, brother!

[funkyjudge]

7 hours ago, huggydougy said:

You should be able to play at your own pace

Let faster players play thru

And enjoy your time on the corse

Sorry, but that is entirely wrong on so many fronts! You cannot clog up the course with slow play and expect that merely allowing slower players to play through is the solution to your slow play.

People who have that attitude need to go play miniature golf, pitch-and-putt, or have a nice time playing non-golf at TopGolf.

[Golf2Much]

Being at a semi-private course puts some constraints on what they could do to enforce what they believe is an acceptable pace of play.  

I was a member at a private course that experienced a 15-minute increase to over 4 hours in the typical round time.  When they tried to find the root cause, it typically came back to golfers not knowing how to play a reasonable length round and not understanding the etiquette and basic fundamentals.   The club had an influx of new members that just didn't were not aware of the impact of their behaviors on the rest of members' round.

To combat this, the board developed a training class.  It included the basic pace of play attributes such as where to place your bag adjacent to a green so you can walk directly to the next tee (versus walking back and wasting time), put down your scores at the next tee box, keeping up with the group in front of you, etc.  They also included basic etiquette as well such as how to enter a trap, how to rake a trap, how to properly fix a ball mark, etc.  

All members, spouses and anyone who wanted to play was required to attend one of the 1.5 to 2 hour board and pro taught training sessions in the winter or they were not allowed to play in the spring (and they meant it).  Come spring, round times were back under 4 hours.  The added bonus was the traps and greens ended up in better shape too!

People just didn't know what was expected and it showed.   Being a private course, they had a bigger stick to ensure the proper behavior.  Being semi-private, it's a small stick!  

[NoRebound]

Four hours seems to be a reasonable target for a public course in the states jammed with golf carts and players plumb-bobbing 3-foot putts.  I've played a couple of weekday rounds lately in less than that and it was glorious.  On the other hand, there was a six-hour weekend round recently that was absolute torture.

The thing is that almost all of the courses that I play do nothing to encourage the pace of play or lay out any ground rules concerning them.  No signs, no reminders on the scorecard, and most no longer even have rangers.  Pace of Play seems to have vanished in a post-pandemic world of jammed parking lots and ever-increasing green fees.     

I wonder how much longer the present situation can persist before it drives any number of golfers to put their clubs in the back of the garage and never allow them to see the light of day again? 

[Grasmere5]

A main cause of slow play are simply those who just play slowly.

its not always an ability/ handicap issue, its the non preparedness to be ready to play your own shot. 
Unnecessary dawdling/ idling etc

worst causes are the slowness of cleaning and marking balls on the green, unnecessarily removing the pin and dawdling between players not ready!

there is plenty of statistical evidence that it is better to leave the pin in - too many think they’re playing the putt to win the Open - just get on with it / no rushing just stop the dawdle!!!!

 

 

[GaryF]

A lot of good input but many many new posters with very long write ups.  Wonder if or how many are AI generated as part of the MGS update last week? 

[jasun28]

4-4:30 hr rounds should be the norm. I played a muni a few weeks ago. I walked off the course at 4:30 hrs in with 3 more holes to play. Absolutely ridiculous! If the course is busy max score for everyone should be double bogey. Triple bogey if you’re getting a stroke. That would speed up play.