Are clubs going too far?

[marfau23]

This is certainly going to be my Old Man Yells At Clouds take but I think that industry wide, clubs are going too far. I hear a lot about drivers being the problem/chief symptom but I have noticed a much smaller difference distance wise upgrading my driver after a decade than trying to upgrade my hybrids. 
 

Currently I game a Titleist 910 4-hybrid and a 913 3-hybrid both bought from the course with the demo label on the shaft. I have absolutely loved them for the last decade but finally decided it might be time to look around and see what advancements have been made. I was absolutely shocked to see that EVERYTHING was flying 15 yards further and flying another 25-50 feet higher meaning I’d have to get an even higher lofted hybrid to fit my current gapping. As someone that already the ball arguably too high, that leaves me stuck. I still love these clubs and have never played with any irons longer than a 5 but am I giving up too much forgiveness by playing 15 year-old hybrids compared to today’s tech in the long/utility iron areas? 

[Josh Parker]

As for the "old man" rant, @RetiredBoomer would agree with you on lofts and I'm sure will jump in.

 

As for the club issues, do your current ones work with your clubs and game?  If the answer is yes, then stick with them.  If you want to change and upgrade, as you saw it creates a gap, but also gives you better launch and decent angles which helps stop the ball.  Will it mean some changes are needed in the bag, probably.  

[Shrek74]

It's actually the ball. That's what the USGA/PGA are saying. And they're never wrong.

[cnosil]

Here we go with another loft jacking thread

Thread topic question: my perspective I have a Driver which should go the farthest and I have a high lofted wedge which goes the shortest.   I have to put clubs in between those two that help me accomplish specific tasks on the course.  I personally pick clubs that go specific distances and I don’t care what the loft is for each club.   My driver distance isn’t getting significantly.longer even when I compare to new clubs.  To me  clubs are not going to far.

to the question you the OP post: clubs are more forgiving and we see better distance on misshits and even clubs that are going significantly farther than 15 year old clubs.  Your handicap is listed as a 3.5 so you probably don’t have many ball striking issues and if the club is doing what you need you probably aren’t missing out on much.  

[Erin B]

@marfau23 if you’re satisfied with the clubs you have I would stay with them. If you want to upgrade, go to a store that has a sim and hit the clubs you are thinking about. Get an idea of how far and high they go. Gap your set from there. Maybe get a fitting to see where your swing is at.

[TJ Hall]

I still have irons from 2011 which are weaker lofts than newer models.  But, I am comfortable with them, hit them well and have pretty decent gapping with them to my wedges.

If your current clubs are performing well for you and aren’t damage, you’re probably ok with what you got.

[RetiredBoomer]

I remember a guy on Hacker's Paradise who was adamant that loft HAD to be strengthened with the new iron designs because with old, weaker lofts, balls would just fall out of the sky and have no "go" to them.

The blatant disingenuousness of that is instantly revealed,
because the OEM's are making modern clubs lofted up to 64°.

The stamping on the soles may be different, but there are still higher lofted clubs.
Modern tech isn't preventing anybody from using 1954 Wilson Staff lofts.
That was a 36° 6-iron, by the way.

If they want to use a different club number / loft correlation, NO PROBLEM.
They make what they can sell.  That's how the world works.

The new tech, however, isn't what forced them to do it.
That's just taking us for idiots.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lefty11]

44 minutes ago, Josh Parker said:

As for the "old man" rant, @RetiredBoomer would agree with you on lofts and I'm sure will jump in.

 

As for the club issues, do your current ones work with your clubs and game?  If the answer is yes, then stick with them.  If you want to change and upgrade, as you saw it creates a gap, but also gives you better launch and decent angles which helps stop the ball.  Will it mean some changes are needed in the bag, probably.  

I agree with @Josh Parker. 

Well put, JP. I’m currently playing with some older irons, and they perform just fine. However, I’ve been eyeing the new models, and I've noticed that the lofts are significantly stronger. For instance, my current 3-hybrid essentially replaces a 4-iron, and my 4-hybrid is comparable to a 5-iron, and so on. I’m considering switching to a 7-iron through pitching wedge setup to keep my bag changes minimal. It’s a bit of a challenge, but it would also require an adjustment period.

[Shankster]

no, they just figured out how to maximize fuel economy.  No one is complaining about that. 
 

I hit the ball high, so high that snoop dog would be impressed.  I don’t particularly like the way the ball flight looks, I have modern clubs, and I used the Titleist AVX for a few seasons and it brought my ball flight down what I would call a significant amount.  With the higher ball flight I absolutely never have to worry about the ball running off the green, even with say a 4 iron approach into one.  Embrace the high ball flight, Jason Day, Rory, and quite a few other players who make millions playing this game hit the ball to the moon. 
 

Went back to the pro v1, better distance off the tee, and better green side touch.

Or go see a fitter and get it worked out.

Edited September 13 by Shankster

[Lefty11]

1 hour ago, TJ Hall said:

I still have irons from 2011 which are weaker lofts than newer models.  But, I am comfortable with them, hit them well and have pretty decent gapping with them to my wedges.

If your current clubs are performing well for you and aren’t damage, you’re probably ok with what you got.

@TJ HallI agree, and I’m starting to think that investing in a new driver and a 3-hybrid might be a better use of my money.

[Erin B]

I love my irons, but want to try Sub70s out. I don’t think I need new irons, but love trying different things. I’m with @Lefty11 on going to hybrid to my 7 iron. I’m m currently sitting at Driver, mini, three hybrids (because my 5 iron is getting a new shaft) then 6-P, 48, 52, 56 wedges. I’m pretty happy with the gapping and can now focus more on short game and approach, which is where my focus needs to be. But my hybrids are older, and I want to upgrade them. New tech is great and I like the bigger face on some of the newer hybrids. When I do replace my old hybrids I am going to check out the PGA superstore to get an idea, then maybe go Sub70 or another DTC brand so I can do an informal review here in the forum. I like doing things like that. 

[MountainManJeff]

Thanks for bringing up the topic.  

I think there’s more to the conversation than just, “are clubs going too far“.  On the surface, some may say yes and others no. But let’s dive into the “why” behind the yes/no.  That’s where the discussion happens. 
 

I love hitting a long bomb of a drive, and I’d love to get my hands on a new, professionally fitted and tricked out driver. However… I need to ask myself if that’s the best thing for my game.  Stated in a different way, if my goal is to shoot better scores, then is a longer drive going to help me the most in the “strokes gained” category. On the other hand, if my goal is to crush it 20 yards past my buddies, then, maybe a longer hitting club is right.  
 

however, what about the irons?  Three weeks ago, My golfing buddy just picked up a new set of irons.  He gained a club (now he hits an 8 when he used to hit a 7). All that’s fine and good (and it gives us something to heckle each other about while on the course  ) however he still sprays his shots.  Now he’s doing it with a 8 instead of a 7. 
 

So, is more distance the right thing?

personally, in my game, I’m working on my overall dispersion (left, right, front and back)  I feel that accuracy is where I’m going to have the largest improvement in the strokes gained conversation.  
 

right now, if you gave me the option of accuracy over length, I’d take accuracy almost every day   If my dispersion is tight, then I’ll score well.  That may mean that I’m hitting 9 when my buddy hits SW   But I’ll be on the flag and he’ll be in the sand (but at least he gets to use the SW again… right!? )

[zengineer]

Club tech, mainly face design and materials, let's you hit a modern club longer than an older club with the same loft. And just make it hader for us, they remembered them.

People get wormy about talk of loft jacking....fine then let's just say they added one er two to every iron number and invented two more wedge names to make up for it.

[chisag]

... Am's need all the help they can get. Pro's don't need any help. I am hitting my Qi10 around 250 and Rory is averaging 326 with his Qi10 but can hit it quite a bit farther when needed. Irons are a different story for Pros as Rory and a few others are hitting MB's and still hitting them prodigious distances because they rarely miss the center. But popular irons on tour like T100's make those misses hardly noticeable. Am's miss the center far more often than they hit it, so perimeter weighting and a thin spring face helps both direction and distance.

... Most Am's don't care about "jacked lofts" because they have no idea what their lofts of their irons are nor do they care. Hitting the ball too far with a modern 44* PW is about the same as hitting it too far with a classic 44* 9 iron. The pin doesn't care what iron you use. I would go so far as to say most Am's don't buy irons for a distance increase, they buy them because they need new irons and pick the ones that look best and/or are the least expensive. 

... Hopefully one day people come to their senses and realize Pro's and Am's play two radically different games and the equipment needed for each is just as radically different. Just my opinion but I don't think any clubs go too far for Am's, especially their irons. The game is and always has been about accuracy over distance for anyone not on Tour. Your wedges, irons, hybrids need to go specific distances so all your gaps are covered and what loft is on what club is really irrelevant. Just ask yourself if you have seen Am's with "jacked lofts" still missing greens and not getting up and down as well as hitting fat and thin shots and it becomes pretty clear that stronger lofted irons really make no difference at all for the majority that play the game. 

[funkyjudge]

34 minutes ago, chisag said:

... Am's need all the help they can get. Pro's don't need any help. I am hitting my Qi10 around 250 and Rory is averaging 326 with his Qi10 but can hit it quite a bit farther when needed. Irons are a different story for Pros as Rory and a few others are hitting MB's and still hitting them prodigious distances because they rarely miss the center. But popular irons on tour like T100's make those misses hardly noticeable. Am's miss the center far more often than they hit it, so perimeter weighting and a thin spring face helps both direction and distance.

... Most Am's don't care about "jacked lofts" because they have no idea what their lofts of their irons are nor do they care. Hitting the ball too far with a modern 44* PW is about the same as hitting it too far with a classic 44* 9 iron. The pin doesn't care what iron you use. I would go so far as to say most Am's don't buy irons for a distance increase, they buy them because they need new irons and pick the ones that look best and/or are the least expensive. 

... Hopefully one day people come to their senses and realize Pro's and Am's play two radically different games and the equipment needed for each is just as radically different. Just my opinion but I don't think any clubs go too far for Am's, especially their irons. The game is and always has been about accuracy over distance for anyone not on Tour. Your wedges, irons, hybrids need to go specific distances so all your gaps are covered and what loft is on what club is really irrelevant. Just ask yourself if you have seen Am's with "jacked lofts" still missing greens and not getting up and down as well as hitting fat and thin shots and it becomes pretty clear that stronger lofted irons really make no difference at all for the majority that play the game. 

So far this year, I have played with at least 8 golfers who were playing Qi10 drivers (some also had Qi10 fairways). All of them hit the Qi10 drivers well to very well, and I was duly impressed.  Seems like a great driver model; I am just a Callaway AI Smoke and Titleist TSR driver fan.

[chisag]

19 minutes ago, funkyjudge said:

So far this year, I have played with at least 8 golfers who were playing Qi10 drivers (some also had Qi10 fairways). All of them hit the Qi10 drivers well to very well, and I was duly impressed.  Seems like a great driver model; I am just a Callaway AI Smoke and Titleist TSR driver fan.

 

... I hear ya, it's hard to find a poor performing driver these days. I have called the Qi10 the Holy Grail as it is the best driver I have played. It just looks perfect at address and works very well for me. I too picked up a Qi10 5 wood. My young stud 36yr old pard has been playing an OG Sim Max for quite a few years but the bottom of the face cracked so he went to a fitting and came away with a GT3 driver and a GT3 3 wood after playing a Ping 5 wood for a long time. He gained about 12-15yds with the GT3 wood. I played with him  first round using both and while his driver wasn't performing as usual, watching him hit his GT3 wood was just awesome as he was longer and just as accurate as his Ping and of course it sounded so much better. 

[RetiredBoomer]

The one thing that I haven't contributed to the loft gapping issue is a diagram!!!

This is a hypothetical example.

 

[bens197]

I’ll always support the technological advances. This game is difficult enough as it is. Isn’t it more fun when we hit fewer poor shots?

We need a Lou Stagner consult to compare gross scores over a 5-10 year look back if possible to see what scoring averages look like. 

[Bossfan]

I think we’ve all just gotten so good.

[Shankster]

58 minutes ago, RetiredBoomer said:

The one thing that I haven't contributed to the loft gapping issue is a diagram!!!

This is a hypothetical example.

 

Why not ditch the chipping iron?  It’s roughly the same as your hypothetical 9 iron?  Are you in chipping range a lot?

[RetiredBoomer]

10 minutes ago, Shankster said:

Why not ditch the chipping iron?  It’s roughly the same as your hypothetical 9 iron?  Are you in chipping range a lot?

It's got a much more upright lie angle and a totally different contoured sole.

The chipper's sole is very similar to the high loft sand iron's sole, both Cleveland Smart Soles..

Both offer similar turf interaction with a non-handsy chipping stroke. 

If the ground contour looks friendly, the chipper's the club.  
If the ground contour looks menacing, play for the dunk with the 64.
Reading the air is easy.

I'm in chipping range perhaps an average number of times.
Like anyone else, I can hit, miss little, or miss big.

The other factor is that five degree iron gapping would actually fit my game better than tight iron gapping.
 

 

 

 

[Shankster]

Fair enough.

[BIG STU]

20 hours ago, chisag said:

... Am's need all the help they can get. Pro's don't need any help. I am hitting my Qi10 around 250 and Rory is averaging 326 with his Qi10 but can hit it quite a bit farther when needed. Irons are a different story for Pros as Rory and a few others are hitting MB's and still hitting them prodigious distances because they rarely miss the center. But popular irons on tour like T100's make those misses hardly noticeable. Am's miss the center far more often than they hit it, so perimeter weighting and a thin spring face helps both direction and distance.

... Most Am's don't care about "jacked lofts" because they have no idea what their lofts of their irons are nor do they care. Hitting the ball too far with a modern 44* PW is about the same as hitting it too far with a classic 44* 9 iron. The pin doesn't care what iron you use. I would go so far as to say most Am's don't buy irons for a distance increase, they buy them because they need new irons and pick the ones that look best and/or are the least expensive. 

... Hopefully one day people come to their senses and realize Pro's and Am's play two radically different games and the equipment needed for each is just as radically different. Just my opinion but I don't think any clubs go too far for Am's, especially their irons. The game is and always has been about accuracy over distance for anyone not on Tour. Your wedges, irons, hybrids need to go specific distances so all your gaps are covered and what loft is on what club is really irrelevant. Just ask yourself if you have seen Am's with "jacked lofts" still missing greens and not getting up and down as well as hitting fat and thin shots and it becomes pretty clear that stronger lofted irons really make no difference at all for the majority that play the game. 

Well said and to the point as SOP for you. Yep I play the old antiques with standard lofts. Even newer blades are not maybe 2* more stronger on loft.

Good example I chip old school most of the time around our gnarly greens with a bump and run 5 iron. Been doing it for years. One of the guys on my team Friday had never played with me before. He asked what I did those chips with? I told him a 5 iron. My 5 iron is on spec at 28*. He plays modern clubs and I told him with his clubs to use a 7 iron. LOL he does not even carry a 5 iron. He has been trying to chip with a gap wedge or something. He had been playing golf 10 years and knows zilch about the game. He does carry 2 hybrids and I told him that was also a bump and run option but he would have to get someone else to show him on that because I do not carry hybrids. He did ask why the 7 iron? I told him basically as I could his 7 iron was about the same as my 5 iron. I do not know if he got it or not. I told him which ever way he went he had to practice it

[BIG STU]

17 hours ago, RetiredBoomer said:

The one thing that I haven't contributed to the loft gapping issue is a diagram!!!

This is a hypothetical example.

 

How do you think I get by with only 11 clubs? I have my lofts and lies set for me. I have also been playing golf long enough to multiplate the face to loft up or down. Good example I only carry one FW and that is my old TM 7 wood. It is 21* and I can hit it 175 max. the other day one of my partners asked why I was hitting it at 140? He did not understand I could hop the 6 iron up there but the front of the green was wet. I opened the face up on the 7 wood and played it forward in my stance and hit a high cut on the green.

IMHO I think today people worry too much about loft and gaps. I know for a fact I have always thought outside the box on things. I played a lot of 1 and 3 club matches gambling back in the day so I learned. Since I have a shop and build my own clubs I bend them up to suit me. I would not expect anyone else to do some of the stuff I do or play the equipment I do. 

[BIG STU]

On 9/13/2024 at 11:50 AM, RetiredBoomer said:

I remember a guy on Hacker's Paradise who was adamant that loft HAD to be strengthened with the new iron designs because with old, weaker lofts, balls would just fall out of the sky and have no "go" to them.

The blatant disingenuousness of that is instantly revealed,
because the OEM's are making modern clubs lofted up to 64°.

The stamping on the soles may be different, but there are still higher lofted clubs.
Modern tech isn't preventing anybody from using 1954 Wilson Staff lofts.
That was a 36° 6-iron, by the way.

If they want to use a different club number / loft correlation, NO PROBLEM.
They make what they can sell.  That's how the world works.

The new tech, however, isn't what forced them to do it.
That's just taking us for idiots.

 

 

 

 

 

LOL incidentally that is the same loft as my 1955 Hogan Precision 6 iron.

[BIG STU]

On 9/13/2024 at 9:38 AM, marfau23 said:

This is certainly going to be my Old Man Yells At Clouds take but I think that industry wide, clubs are going too far. I hear a lot about drivers being the problem/chief symptom but I have noticed a much smaller difference distance wise upgrading my driver after a decade than trying to upgrade my hybrids. 
 

Currently I game a Titleist 910 4-hybrid and a 913 3-hybrid both bought from the course with the demo label on the shaft. I have absolutely loved them for the last decade but finally decided it might be time to look around and see what advancements have been made. I was absolutely shocked to see that EVERYTHING was flying 15 yards further and flying another 25-50 feet higher meaning I’d have to get an even higher lofted hybrid to fit my current gapping. As someone that already the ball arguably too high, that leaves me stuck. I still love these clubs and have never played with any irons longer than a 5 but am I giving up too much forgiveness by playing 15 year-old hybrids compared to today’s tech in the long/utility iron areas? 

On the hybrids it depends on you. Do you still hit them well and have confidence in them? IMHO nothing wrong with older stuff. One just has to do what fits them and their game

[zengineer]

The one thing that I haven't contributed to the loft gapping issue is a diagram!!!
This is a hypothetical example.
http://content.invisioncic.com/m331004/monthly_2024_09/image.png.4025bbcdec724d4d6d462d7428eeac13.png
 

There is a reason that standard loft gaps vary as you move through the set (less at the top, larger at the bottom). Yardage and loft is not a linear relationship and even if it was your head speed is higher with longer clubs.. Think about the shape of a golf shot. It's a very complex shape and stock sets are designed to produce equal yardage gaps.

Building the 5 degree set you propose would produce wildly unequal yardage gaps and likely create unhittable lofts at either end.

[GG194]

Finally figured out how to respond on this. I’m really down on jacked lofts because they really hurt my game. Let me explain. I’m old and have a poor swing therefore don’t hit the ball hard or very well. Really need the game improvement head size but also need the increased loft. Most of the newer irons that I should be able to use just don’t work. Since I’m almost 79 my game isn’t really going to improve. 
 

edit - swing speed less than 70mph
 

Edited September 20 by GG194

[NoRebound]

I miss my youth on the golf course more than just about anyplace else in my life.

When I was in my 20s and 30s I was a bomber.  I could hit a Wilson 1200GE driver with a stock metal shaft 300 yards all day long with a wound Titleist.  My game was not admittedly refined but I could just power my way out of most trouble.

I was recently fit for a new driver.  My 12-year-old Callaway RAZR Fit Xtreme was good for about 226 yards on average with an ever-increasing pattern mostly favoring a slice.  A fitter at a recent demo day watched me struggle for a bit before he produced a new Callaway Ai Smoke Max-D driver and said "Hit this."  My first four balls went 271, 271, 283, and 290.   

Yeah, it's not the good old days but its close enough.  On average I am almost 30 yards longer than I was before.  I am long, mostly in the fairway and starting to score well again. 

If that is what distance is doing for a guy who doesn't want to be relegated to the forward tees, what is the problem? 

[Erin B]

2 minutes ago, NoRebound said:

I miss my youth on the golf course more than just about anyplace else in my life.

When I was in my 20s and 30s I was a bomber.  I could hit a Wilson 1200GE driver with a stock metal shaft 300 yards all day long with a wound Titleist.  My game was not admittedly refined but I could just power my way out of most trouble.

I was recently fit for a new driver.  My 12-year-old Callaway RAZR Fit Xtreme was good for about 226 yards on average with an ever-increasing pattern mostly favoring a slice.  A fitter at a recent demo day watched me struggle for a bit before he produced a new Callaway Ai Smoke Max-D driver and said "Hit this."  My first four balls went 271, 271, 283, and 290.   

Yeah, it's not the good old days but its close enough.  On average I am almost 30 yards longer than I was before.  I am long, mostly in the fairway and starting to score well again. 

If that is what distance is doing for a guy who doesn't want to be relegated to the forward tees, what is the problem? 

I completely agree with you!!! I cannot wrap my head around this topic of clubs going too far. Before my back injury and surgeries in the AF I was bombing balls. Since then and turning 50+ not so much so I like the new tech and distance. I don't care if it helps the other guys, that's great for those young studs, but last time I checked, I'm not getting any younger.