cksurfdude Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Have not even yet listened to this podcast with Adam and Tony, and I know that it's been mentioned by them before ... and, I would hope, they would NOT let something like this out without sourcing the info from at least one reliable "witness"..... But in here I wanted to float a trial idea (which I've mentioned in these forums before) ... and which can be construed as supported by the statement from the USGA in their recent "Distance" report, where they said - and I paraphrase... "Our goal is to maintain the skill required to win in competition" To that end I propose that the USGA and R&A: 1. Develop a standard spec* for a set of COMPETITION golf clubs; and 2. Require all contestants in the US Open and The (British) Open to use a set of standard spec COMPETITION clubs during the tournament. --- * Standard Spec COMPETITION clubs: These are _not_ clubs that are designed and built to "conform" to, and be within, the current published tolerances. These are clubs that are ABSOLUTELY UNIFORM from one set to another; that is - each contestant is effectively playing with the exact same set of clubs. And all of these clubs are measured and tagged before the start of a competition, re-checked each day and at the end of the competition (and perhaps stored in a locked and secure facility overnight?). Additionally I'd suggest setting a minimum loft and maximum head volume + shaft length for the driver - it seems to this casual observer that that is the quickest and most effective way to put a practical limit on driving distance off of the tee. Putters: perhaps this could be the one exception, and allow competitors to use their own putter (as long as it conforms to current rules). --- If anyone is familiar with one-design yacht racing that's the concept I'm thinking of. Each boat is effectively the exact same in all measurements, as are the sails, so that the races are won by the crews with the best boat-handling and racing tactics skills. Totally whacko? Or is there something in there? WITB of an "aspiring" play-ah ... Driver...Callaway Paradym (Aldila Ascent PL Blue 40/A) 5W...Callaway Great Big Bertha (MCA Kai'Li Red 50/R) 7W...Tour Edge Exotics EXS (Tensei CK Blue 50/R) 4H...Callaway Epic Super Hybrid (Recoil ZT9 F3) 5H...Callaway Big Bertha ('19) (Recoil 460 ESX F3) 6i-GW...Sub 70 699 V2 (Recoil 660 F3) 54°, 60°...Cleveland CBX2, CBX 60 (Rotex graphite) Putter...EvnRoll ER5 or MLA Tour XDream (P2 Reflex grips) ...all in a Datrek bag on an MGI Zip Navigator electric cart. Ball often, not always, MaxFli Tour. Forum Member tester for the Paradym X driver (2023) Forum Member tester for the ExPutt Putting Simulator (2020) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
null Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 I don't see how anyone ever would be in favor of any sort of standard competition clubs. I understand your thinking, but... Just... No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undershooter Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 I don't see how anyone ever would be in favor of any sort of standard competition clubs. I understand your thinking, but... Just... No. Imagine DJ/ Finau using the same clubs that Ben Crane or David Toms use Edit: OP I don't hate the idea behind this but it'll never happen and players need some ability to fit the clubs to themselves. Driver- Tmag 2017 M2 tour issue 8.5* actual loft 7.8* w/ HZRDS Green PVD 70TX" Fairway Metal- Taylormade SLDR Mini Driver 12* w/ Fujikura Rombax TP95-X" Utility- Mizuno MPH5 1 iron w/ Aldila RIP 85X (depending on course/ conditions) Irons- Mizuno MP- FLI HI 2i w/ Aldila Proto ByYou 100X Mizuno MP59 4i-6I w/ PX 6.5 Mizuno MP69 7i-PW w/ PX 6.5 Wedges- Scratch 8620 Driver/Slider set. 50*, 54* bent to 55* and 60* Putter- Taylormade Spider Tour w/ flow neck Ball- Bridgestone Tour B X Bag- Sun Mountain C130 Supercharged Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfSpy MPR Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 I like the idea in the abstract, but because you're dealing with equipment for individuals, rather than for a crew in yachting, you have to have ranges of acceptable equipment. It would be like mandating that Jose Altuve and Aaron Judge use the same bat: TS3 9.5°, Tensei Blue CBX T3 15°, Project X HZRDUS Black Epic Super Hybrid 18°, Aerotech Steel Fiber FC HYB S C722 21°, Ventus Blue 8S CBX Iron-Wood 25°, Project X HZRDUS Black 6.0 639 CB, Aldila NV 95 Graphite, 6–PW CBX 48° T22 54° and 60° EAS 4.0, Garsen G-Pro grip TP5x and Tour Response Full WITB with pictures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPattGolf Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 I think the first big issue you would run into with the competition spec is changing guys out of their fit specs. Guys who play shorter or longer than standard clubs get screwed and the same goes for guys with non neutral ball flights in those lengths. Personally I don't think yacht racing is a good comparison because the difference in importance of athleticism. * Staff Professional* Driver: Stealth Plus+ (7.25*) - Fujikura Ventus Black 6X Tipped 1" 3 Wood: Stealth Plus+ (14.25*) - Fujikura Ventus Blue 7x Tipped 1" Driving Iron: P790 UDI 2 iron - HZRDUS Smoke Black RDX 100 6.5 4 Iron: P790 - KBS C-Taper 130 X Irons (5-7) P7MC - KBS C-Taper 130 X Irons (8-P) P7MB - KBS C-Taper 130 X Wedges: MG3 Black 50.09 / 55.11 - KBS TOUR FLT 130 X 60* Wedge: High Toe Raw - KBS Tour 130 X Putter: Custom Black ER2 or Custom Black Del Monte Bag: FlexTech Stand Bag Glove: Tour Preferred Glove Ball: TP5X #11 RangeFinder: R1 Smart Rangefinder Instagram: @dpattgolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfSpy MPR Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Now, with that being said: I think it would make an interesting golf exhibition, were it ever to happen. It would be akin to the occasional video that pops up with pros playing vintage, sometimes hickory-era, equipment. Unfortunately, there's no financial incentive for anyone in this. The equipment makers couldn't be interested in sponsoring it, the players have no reason to look "silly" playing clubs they're not comfortable with, etc. But I'd absolutely watch something with this premise. And so would the other limited number of hardcore equipment nerds TS3 9.5°, Tensei Blue CBX T3 15°, Project X HZRDUS Black Epic Super Hybrid 18°, Aerotech Steel Fiber FC HYB S C722 21°, Ventus Blue 8S CBX Iron-Wood 25°, Project X HZRDUS Black 6.0 639 CB, Aldila NV 95 Graphite, 6–PW CBX 48° T22 54° and 60° EAS 4.0, Garsen G-Pro grip TP5x and Tour Response Full WITB with pictures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBT Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 While I like the line of thinking, something like this could never happen. Some guys are taller than others..standard length wouldn't work Some guys swing faster than others....standard flexes wouldn't work Some guys swing more upright than others ....standard lies wouldn't work Last but not least....NO SPONSOR DOLLARS FOR PLAYERS and none of them will go for that. There is a reason baseball has rules governing bats but each player provides his own bats that fit those rules......everybody can't use the same equipment. XR Driver Matrix Ozik 8m3 Black Tie Shaft King F7 3W UST Mamiya Chrome Elements 7F4 Shaft King F7 5W UST Mamiya Chrome Elements 7F4 Shaft King F7 4 Hybrid Graphite Designs Tour AD-HY 95 Shaft PXG 0211 DC 5-PW Mitsubishi MMT 80 Shafts RTX ZIPCORE 50*,54*,58* UST Mamiya Recoil 95 Shafts Metal X Milled #7 with SuperStroke 2.0 grip MTB Twitter: @timldotson Instagram: timldotson Facebook: TimDotson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGoBlue100 Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 It's IROC meets golf! (Dating myself, we'll see who gets the reference.) I'm with the majority here; I think the concept is kind of cool. However, mpatrickriley & TBT hit the nail on the head: follow the LACK of money in this. Therefore, it will never happen. "Where'd it go?" "Right in the Lumberyard..." Gen 2 0811 XF 10.5* Graphite Design Tour AD DI-6x Gen 2 0211 15* 3W Mitsubishi Tensei Raw Blue 65-S Tour B JGR 15* Fairway UST ProForce V2 7F5 76g X-Flex (These two are gonna fight it out in early "24 to see who stays in the bag...) Tour B JGR 19* & 22* Hybrid UST ProForce V2 90g X-Flex Tour B JGR HF-2 irons (5i - PW) KBS Tour 130x CBX Wedges (50, 54, 58) TT Dynamic Gold 115 Wedge Shaft MATI Mamo Putter 33" Super Stroke Football League 3.0 Slim Hoofer Camo Stand Bag Precision Pro Nexus Rangefinder FAN! PRO Member Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfSpy MPR Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 It's IROC meets golf! (Dating myself, we'll see who gets the reference.) I'm with the majority here; I think the concept is kind of cool. However, mpatrickriley & TBT hit the nail on the head: follow the LACK of money in this. Therefore, it will never happen.I actually thought of IROC as well. And then I had to look up what ever happened to it :-) Sent from my LG-G5 using the MyGolfSpy mobile app. TS3 9.5°, Tensei Blue CBX T3 15°, Project X HZRDUS Black Epic Super Hybrid 18°, Aerotech Steel Fiber FC HYB S C722 21°, Ventus Blue 8S CBX Iron-Wood 25°, Project X HZRDUS Black 6.0 639 CB, Aldila NV 95 Graphite, 6–PW CBX 48° T22 54° and 60° EAS 4.0, Garsen G-Pro grip TP5x and Tour Response Full WITB with pictures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGoBlue100 Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 I actually thought of IROC as well. And then I had to look up what ever happened to it :-) Sent from my LG-G5 using the MyGolfSpy mobile app. Apparently there wasn't enough money in it… Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy "Where'd it go?" "Right in the Lumberyard..." Gen 2 0811 XF 10.5* Graphite Design Tour AD DI-6x Gen 2 0211 15* 3W Mitsubishi Tensei Raw Blue 65-S Tour B JGR 15* Fairway UST ProForce V2 7F5 76g X-Flex (These two are gonna fight it out in early "24 to see who stays in the bag...) Tour B JGR 19* & 22* Hybrid UST ProForce V2 90g X-Flex Tour B JGR HF-2 irons (5i - PW) KBS Tour 130x CBX Wedges (50, 54, 58) TT Dynamic Gold 115 Wedge Shaft MATI Mamo Putter 33" Super Stroke Football League 3.0 Slim Hoofer Camo Stand Bag Precision Pro Nexus Rangefinder FAN! PRO Member Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revkev Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 I get the point but it's beyond unfair. Equipment is not a one size fits all thing plain and simple. There's a much easier fix. Everyone's clubs go through a check the week of the tournament and the winner's get checked after the fact. I'm absolutely stunned by this revelation. I hope the guys have two solid sources on this one. I recall very well back in the 70's and 80's that individual player's clubs used for tournament play were checked. I think it was a random thing but they were periodically checked never the less. This is incredible - how lucky no has it been going on? How could the USGA and PGA tours not know? How could the players? If true so much for golf being a sport of integrity. Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60 Aldila R flex - 42.25 inches SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft Ping G410 7, 9 wood Alta 65 R flex Srixon ZX5 MK II 5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex India 52,56 (60 pending) UST recoil 75's R flex Evon roll ER 5 32 inches It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfSpy MPR Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 I get the point but it's beyond unfair. Equipment is not a one size fits all thing plain and simple. There's a much easier fix. Everyone's clubs go through a check the week of the tournament and the winner's get checked after the fact. I'm absolutely stunned by this revelation. I hope the guys have two solid sources on this one. I recall very well back in the 70's and 80's that individual player's clubs used for tournament play were checked. I think it was a random thing but they were periodically checked never the less. This is incredible - how lucky no has it been going on? How could the USGA and PGA tours not know? How could the players? If true so much for golf being a sport of integrity. Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy My guess is that it wouldn't even have to be quite this involved. Tour equipment is almost all serial-numbered. Test it before it goes into play, serials stay on record. Certainly, someone could skirt this: making grooves non-conforming or shaving a driver face after testing. But if we assume that the majority of the guys on Tour are operating with integrity, I think this would go a long way to ensuring that everyone's using legit equipment, the cheaters would have to work a bit harder, and you wouldn't have everyone operating under the persistent cloud of suspicion that is created by constant testing. TS3 9.5°, Tensei Blue CBX T3 15°, Project X HZRDUS Black Epic Super Hybrid 18°, Aerotech Steel Fiber FC HYB S C722 21°, Ventus Blue 8S CBX Iron-Wood 25°, Project X HZRDUS Black 6.0 639 CB, Aldila NV 95 Graphite, 6–PW CBX 48° T22 54° and 60° EAS 4.0, Garsen G-Pro grip TP5x and Tour Response Full WITB with pictures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBT Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 It's IROC meets golf! (Dating myself, we'll see who gets the reference.) I'm with the majority here; I think the concept is kind of cool. However, mpatrickriley & TBT hit the nail on the head: follow the LACK of money in this. Therefore, it will never happen. Hey I had an IROC Z28 back in the day....I was cool! XR Driver Matrix Ozik 8m3 Black Tie Shaft King F7 3W UST Mamiya Chrome Elements 7F4 Shaft King F7 5W UST Mamiya Chrome Elements 7F4 Shaft King F7 4 Hybrid Graphite Designs Tour AD-HY 95 Shaft PXG 0211 DC 5-PW Mitsubishi MMT 80 Shafts RTX ZIPCORE 50*,54*,58* UST Mamiya Recoil 95 Shafts Metal X Milled #7 with SuperStroke 2.0 grip MTB Twitter: @timldotson Instagram: timldotson Facebook: TimDotson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAGolfore Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 All it takes is for someone to bring up the issue and request the clubs be tested. It is the players responsibility to make sure they are using conforming drivers. Even the rules say there are outliers in mass production and it's the player that should have the driver tested. With all of this said I think it would be very easy for the USGA to test everyone's clubs before a round. Have a test tent that all players must come to and if they change drivers that week then they need to come back and have that club tested. This is not hard to fix. The USGA just needs to use their head. Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy Driver: Callaway Rogue 9* FW: Sub 70 Pro 4 wood Hybrid: Sub 70 949 Hybrid 19* Irons: Sub 70 659 CB 4 - 6 Black 639 MB 7 - PW Wedges: Sub 70 JB - 50* 54* & 60* Putter: Odyssey White Hot #2 Ball: Titleist Pro-V1x Handicap index: +3.9 Instagram: joshandersongolf Twitter: @jacustomgolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revkev Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 I am certain that there used to be random testing. If this is true I'm about fed up with all level of sports - they are all like professional wrestling. College and professional alike. It's all fixed - either intentionally or through cheating. Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60 Aldila R flex - 42.25 inches SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft Ping G410 7, 9 wood Alta 65 R flex Srixon ZX5 MK II 5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex India 52,56 (60 pending) UST recoil 75's R flex Evon roll ER 5 32 inches It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver & black Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Juiced drivers on tour? I'm shocked! Not really. Yea.... it's the ball... right, Jack? Too much money to be won. It was inevitable that even Golf would succumb to cheating, sooner or later. Maybe I shouldn't say that, but................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaidJacket Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 I'm not entirely sure what to make of all the ball talk and course setups, and now "juicing?." I commented before in the forum that I don't think the USGA will restrict the ball we play today. I just don't think so. Juiced drivers? I can come up with some odd theories and suspicions about that topic I suppose. Like the reference to the Tour Vans being inspected for a players equipment. I've seen videos of tour vans where they'll show just want Tony and Adam talked about. They'll slide open a drawer and show head and balls ,etc just for player $. Ok fine... the inspector shows up and says they want to test player X's driver head or a ball. But what if the equipment maker ships directly to player $ the driver and balls they will actually place in their bag on Thursday? Equipment maker says, "hey player $$ here's a new driver we made for you." Play this one. Same with the ball. Is that unreasonable to consider? Could happen I guess. The discussion never comes up with the player. They just take it and play it. No questions asked. It does seem a little odd doesn't it that 150 lb shrimp can hit a ball 342 yards. Well? I like the talk about toughening up the courses. In other words slow them down a bit. Have you ever walked on a fairway at a tournament? Or even been close enough to see them? I have and they are tight, hard and fast. (baring rain of course) Hell, I've joked that I wished the greens at my club were as good as Augusta's fairways!! I'd do to the courses much like some of you other guys have suggested. To Nicklaus' credit I recall him saying on TV one time many years ago at some tournament that if it were up to him he'd corn-row all the bunkers. Which in fact he does at the Memorial. My Sun Mountain bag currently includes: 771CSI 5i - PW and PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges EXS 10.5*, 929-HS FW4 16.5* Willimette w/GolfPride Contour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revkev Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 I agree with Plaid on all accounts except I doubt it would be without the players knowledge - they know their equipment - they will recognize it if they have a hit driver for certain. Back to that topic think about the implications of it's the OEM. Company A markets two drivers. It makes a larger profit on driver 2 v driver 1. So it only juices a few driver 2s that some of its players are using on a given week. Now we are really messing with the balance of power. Pro Wrestling All the sports that we watch are Pro Wrestling. Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60 Aldila R flex - 42.25 inches SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft Ping G410 7, 9 wood Alta 65 R flex Srixon ZX5 MK II 5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex India 52,56 (60 pending) UST recoil 75's R flex Evon roll ER 5 32 inches It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ole gray Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 What if there was a rule stating a player would lose one full year's exemption if found guilty of playing a "juiced" driver. They could not participate in any major, ryder cup etc. and have to sit out an entire season. I bet that would put a halt in those juiced up sticks! Ping G430 Max Driver 10.5 Degree Titleist TSR1 4, 5, & 6 Hybrids Titleist T350 Irons 7 - W48 Cleveland CBX ZipCore 52 56 & 60 Degree Wedges LAB Mezz Max Broomstick Putter / TPT Shaft (Platinum @ 45/78) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxEntropy Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 What if there was a rule stating a player would lose one full year's exemption if found guilty of playing a "juiced" driver. They could not participate in any major, ryder cup etc. and have to sit out an entire season. I bet that would put a halt in those juiced up sticks! I agree the potential punishment needs to be a huge deterrent. Someone else brought up the NCAA - if they want to retain ANY credibility, I believe they need to act swiftly and impose the "death penalty" on any team that is confirmed to have been cheating. I would love for them to be proactive about it and not allow participation in this year's tournament, but understand there is not enough time to sort out accusations versus proof in the next few days. The USGA seems to be on the cusp of something catastrophic if this is true, as well, especially given how golf is supposed to be about integrity. Driver: Epic Speed 9* (set -1) MMT 70X 3W: Tour B JGR Recoil 760ES 3H, 4H: Tour B JGR 19*, 23* Recoil 780ES 4-AW: Tour B JGR HF2 Modus3 Tour 105 SW: RTX Zipcore Black Satin 54* LW: TAIII Black 58* Putter: Scottsdale TR Senita Bag: BigMax Dri Active Lite Ball: TP5x or AVX (yellow) Pushcart: BigMax iQ+ Testing Complete, Final Review Posted: Sub70 TAIII Forged Wedges Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cksurfdude Posted March 8, 2018 Author Share Posted March 8, 2018 Some interesting thoughts and comments in the replies ... thx all. Didn't think the idea really had any practicality (but "what if?" ... and .. so far .. have not received any death threats from any equipment manufacturers ) ... so I guess the closest possibility is that "exhibition match" idea. Rev and others make a very excellent point about measuring .. and tracking .. the equipment before and after (each?) tournament round. I also like the idea of a meaningful penalty - other than monetary - being imposed. Seems to me that testing .. should it ever take place .. should include all clubs, plus - a random selection out of the balls (the golf balls!) of each player. WITB of an "aspiring" play-ah ... Driver...Callaway Paradym (Aldila Ascent PL Blue 40/A) 5W...Callaway Great Big Bertha (MCA Kai'Li Red 50/R) 7W...Tour Edge Exotics EXS (Tensei CK Blue 50/R) 4H...Callaway Epic Super Hybrid (Recoil ZT9 F3) 5H...Callaway Big Bertha ('19) (Recoil 460 ESX F3) 6i-GW...Sub 70 699 V2 (Recoil 660 F3) 54°, 60°...Cleveland CBX2, CBX 60 (Rotex graphite) Putter...EvnRoll ER5 or MLA Tour XDream (P2 Reflex grips) ...all in a Datrek bag on an MGI Zip Navigator electric cart. Ball often, not always, MaxFli Tour. Forum Member tester for the Paradym X driver (2023) Forum Member tester for the ExPutt Putting Simulator (2020) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cbk57 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 Just where does one start to define “juiced†when you consider that the face of a modern driver is so large that a professional has hardly any chance of missing the sweet region of the club. I say region because it is more like a area code than the sweet spot of a “wood driverâ€. These things are now made of carbon fiber and every conceivable other technology to make the ball fly in an exact pre determined flight pattern. The salvation we have is that even pros make an errant swing now and then and so a small mistake can become a big mistake when you look at the distances these guys hit the ball. With that said though, if any of this made the determanitive difference, they would all be 30 under par every week and flipping a coin to see who won the tourney after they played 18 consecutive hours of playoffs. You could give them persimmon drivers from 1985 and the numbers on the board at the end might be a few strokes higher but the leader board week to week would be the same and they would still be pros and we would not be. They can hit any club you put in their bag better than we can hit the latest and greatest clubs that we can afford. Golf is a very democratic sport. The numbers are what they are. If one is good enough to get a tour card and play with the pros then they can go for it. However, for the rest of us, there is a reason we don't have that card and very few of us can honestly say some life circumstance denied them vs the raw talent and work required to go pro which self eliminates the rest of us. Driver Taylor Made M2 Ping G 3 wood 14.5 loftPing G hybrid 19Hogan Radial 3-PW(forged circa 1989)Evnroll ER2, Golf bag, old and worn out circa 1989 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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