Bending TM P790 irons up to 2 degrees weaker. Is it safe? Good idea?

[pakman92]

I have a set of 2021 P790s 5i-AW.  I have 2 issues with gapping.  First is that I hit the 5 iron about as long as the hybrid I play.   I'm happy with the gapping from driver down to that hybrid.   On the opposite and gapping from AW to 9i is very wide about 16 yards about between clubs.    Long story short, I'm about to have the 5,6,7,8 iron bent 2 degrees weaker, 9 iron 1 degree weaker, and AW 1 degree stronger.

	Current/Factory	Desired
5 iron	23.5	25.5
6 iron	26.5	28.5
7 iron	30.5	32.5
8 iron	35	37
9 iron	40	41
PW	45	45
AW	50	49

First, is it safe to have P790s bent that much?  I know it will increase the bounce.  Will it affect offset?  Will it be safe to bend them bacK?  Any comments are welcomed.

 

[BostonSal]

You need a steep angle of attack to bend weaker as bounce is increased degree for degree.

It would definitely not work for me but might be ok for you.

[GolfSpy_APH]

1 minute ago, pakman92 said:

I have a set of 2021 P790s 5i-AW.  I have 2 issues with gapping.  First is that 5 iron about as long as the hybrid I play.   I'm happy with the gapping from driver down to that hybrid.   On the opposite and gapping from AW to 9i is very wide about 16 yards about between clubs.    Long story short, I'm about to have the 5,6,7,8 iron bent 2 degrees weaker, 9 iron 1 degree weaker, and AW 1 degree stronger.

	Current/Factory	Desired
5 iron	23.5	25.5
6 iron	26.5	28.5
7 iron	30.5	32.5
8 iron	35	37
9 iron	40	41
PW	45	45
AW	50	49

First, is it safe to have P790s bent that much?  I know it will increase the bounce.  Will it affect offset?  Will it be safe to bend them bacK?  Any comments are welcomed.

 

From what I recall the club builder I worked with and what I can recall being said around the forum is a general rule of 2 degrees either way is pretty normal. It is when you get to the 4* mark that it is getting on the scary side. I'm sure somone with more experience will correct me if I am wrong. 

As for offset it shouldn't effect it that much.. I guess it would depend on how much of an eye you have for that. And yes they could be bent back. They are a forged club so can be bent back if needed. 

[pakman92]

3 minutes ago, BostonSal said:

You need a steep angle of attack to bend weaker as bounce is increased degree for degree.

It would definitely not work for me but might be ok for you.

Thanks.  TM tends to increase the bounce on their irons about 50% of the loft change.   i.e. about 2-2.5 increase in bounce for 4-5 increase in loft.   So I would be increasing the bounce effectively about a degree more than the 5.5, 6.5, 7.5 and 8.5 irons i'm creating.  I'm on the steeper side than shallow so, I should be OK, I hope.

[pakman92]

6 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

From what I recall the club builder I worked with and what I can recall being said around the forum is a general rule of 2 degrees either way is pretty normal. It is when you get to the 4* mark that it is getting on the scary side. I'm sure somone with more experience will correct me if I am wrong. 

As for offset it shouldn't effect it that much.. I guess it would depend on how much of an eye you have for that. And yes they could be bent back. They are a forged club so can be bent back if needed. 

I believe only the face is forged.  I thought, anyway.  Thus, my concern.  

[GolfSpy_APH]

I know the original ones were bendable as the shop I worked in did them for several customers. Haven't had to deal with the newer versions though.

[pakman92]

13 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

I know the original ones were bendable as the shop I worked in did them for several customers. Haven't had to deal with the newer versions though.

Since you worked in a shop, I would like to ask.  Is it safe to take it to a big box store to have the clubs bent?  Is it a non error prone job? 

[GolfSpy_APH]

1 minute ago, pakman92 said:

Since you worked in a shop, I would like to ask.  Is it safe to take it to a big box store to have the clubs bent?  Is it a non error prone job? 

I really couldn't answer that with any certainty. I'm sure there are some that are great and some that may not be as good. Where I lived there was only two places to get it done. A Golf Town (big box) and our shop. The guys in Golftown did a good job and took their jobs seriously and worked with pride. That was that shop... can't really say the same for others? Best to go in and talk to them and I'm sure you'll get a good feel for how they are and if you trust them to do it or not. 

[chisag]

58 minutes ago, pakman92 said:

Since you worked in a shop, I would like to ask.  Is it safe to take it to a big box store to have the clubs bent?  Is it a non error prone job? 

 

... Hit or miss unless you know the guy doing the work. Always a good idea to ask questions, find someone that has been doing it awhile and then only use them. I do my own work and bent my P790's 2* upright and 1* weak with no problems. 

[bens197]

1 hour ago, chisag said:

 

... Hit or miss unless you know the guy doing the work. Always a good idea to ask questions, find someone that has been doing it awhile and then only use them. I do my own work and bent my P790's 2* upright and 1* weak with no problems. 

+1 on this.  Don't presume that a smooth talker or association with a certain shop that the person doing the work is competent.  Get to know your people if possible.

[dlow206]

also, don't assume that the factory specs are actually what each iron measure out to. in particular don't go in and tell them just to bend each iron 2 degrees weak, because who knows what the actual loft is on each head, there is manufacturing variance. 

[chisag]

14 minutes ago, dlow206 said:

also, don't assume that the factory specs are actually what each iron measure out to. in particular don't go in and tell them just to bend each iron 2 degrees weak, because who knows what the actual loft is on each head, there is manufacturing variance. 

 

... Great points and sometimes they don't even come in under their stated tolerances. I had an OEM send me irons built to my specs when I was on staff with them and my 7 and 8 iron were 1* apart?!? That was when I bought my first loft/lie machine and began doing my own work. The irony of this post is the P790's came in closest to on spec as any new irons I have ever received. 

[NM01]

9 hours ago, pakman92 said:

Thanks.  TM tends to increase the bounce on their irons about 50% of the loft change.   i.e. about 2-2.5 increase in bounce for 4-5 increase in loft.   So I would be increasing the bounce effectively about a degree more than the 5.5, 6.5, 7.5 and 8.5 irons i'm creating.  I'm on the steeper side than shallow so, I should be OK, I hope.

Where did you get this info from. It’s a 1:1 ration for loft to bounce change. You will also see a change in offset.

Also 16 yards is about normal for gaps between clubs and that will vary slightly per person but anything 12-16 is normal. 
 

When adjusting loft it’s also going to have some impact on launch and spin which may or may not impact your ball flight

[pakman92]

16 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Where did you get this info from. It’s a 1:1 ration for loft to bounce change. You will also see a change in offset.

Also 16 yards is about normal for gaps between clubs and that will vary slightly per person but anything 12-16 is normal. 
 

When adjusting loft it’s also going to have some impact on launch and spin which may or may not impact your ball flight

@RickyBobby_PRThanks for the comments.  I know it's 1:1 ratio for loft to bounce change.  What I'm saying is the following.     Typically, 6 iron which will more bounce than 5 iron by design.   When I bend my 5 iron to be closer to by 6 iron, I want my bounce to go up a little.   Not by full 2 degrees, but by 1 degree.   I'll be adding 1 additional degree of unwanted bounce.

wrt to gaps.   I need even gaps across my irons.  Someone with higher swing speed than myself me may be able to have 16 yard gaps between all his/her irons.  But, for me I need 12 yard gaps.   Right now, I have 16 yard gap between AW, PW, 9i and smaller 10-11 yard gaps between 9-5.

 

 

 

 

   

 

 

[cnosil]

15 minutes ago, pakman92 said:

wrt to gaps.   I need even gaps across my irons.  Someone with higher swing speed than myself me may be able to have 16 yard gaps between all his/her irons.  But, for me I need 12 yard gaps.   Right now, I have 16 yard gap between AW, PW, 9i and smaller 10-11 yard gaps between 9-5.

 

Generally 15 is considered ideal and you should be able to manufacturer the between distances by shorter swing or gripping down on the club.   I don't think it is related to club speed.  

[NM01]

11 hours ago, pakman92 said:

@RickyBobby_PRThanks for the comments.  I know it's 1:1 ratio for loft to bounce change.  What I'm saying is the following.     Typically, 6 iron which will more bounce than 5 iron by design.   When I bend my 5 iron to be closer to by 6 iron, I want my bounce to go up a little.   Not by full 2 degrees, but by 1 degree.   I'll be adding 1 additional degree of unwanted bounce.

wrt to gaps.   I need even gaps across my irons.  Someone with higher swing speed than myself me may be able to have 16 yard gaps between all his/her irons.  But, for me I need 12 yard gaps.   Right now, I have 16 yard gap between AW, PW, 9i and smaller 10-11 yard gaps between 9-5.

 

 

 

 

   

 

 

That’s the trade off of weakening or strengthening loft you have bounce changes that may not be ideal for what the golfer wants/needs. One has to figure out what they are willing to deal with.

Speed doesn’t have anything to do with what one has for gaps. It’s about 1) knowing what the gaps are so the golfer knows the distance the clubs go 2) that the shots are consistent. A well struck shot goes the same distance every time and mishits in the same spot on the club go the same distance 3) the ball flies now the person wants them to fly.

As cnosil mentioned distances can be manipulated by swing length, change the pace of the swing, choking down on the club or any combination of that.

 

[pakman92]

@RickyBobby_PR Since my AW Is 105 and PW 121 and 9i 137, I just need to get my 5 iron fly 201 (additional 20 yards).   Honestly, I’m finding it hard to accept that  with modern lofts people don’t have the same gapping issues I do.    I have better gapping when irons are even 4 degrees apart instead of 5 deg for shorter irons and 3 between longer irons.   

Alternatively, as you suggest, one of three things may be happening.  1.  I don’t know my yardages as you suggest.  2. Or Im not consistent enough to know my distance.  3.   I’m making up my story.    I assure you none of those 3 is the case.  I’m very much a numbers person and my yardages are on LM I own.  I’m certainly not consistent as I would like to be, but am a good enough player to know how far my good shots will using a launch monitor.   
 

So are you saying I have a phantom gapping problem?   I ask if it’s safe to bend irons and you tell me I’m making up my gapping issues?   I don’t get it why this is coming from  a well respected member of the forum.  

[cnosil]

7 minutes ago, pakman92 said:

 I ask if it’s safe to bend irons and you tell me I’m making up my gapping issues?   

Since my AW Is 105 and PW 121 and 9i 137, I just need to get my 5 iron fly 201 (additional 20 yards).   Honestly, I’m finding it hard to accept that  with modern lofts people don’t have the same gapping issues I do.    I have better gapping when irons are even 4 degrees apart instead of 5 deg for shorter irons and 3 between longer irons.   

I have a set of 2021 P790s 5i-AW.  I have 2 issues with gapping.  First is that I hit the 5 iron about as long as the hybrid I play.   I'm happy with the gapping from driver down to that hybrid.   On the opposite and gapping from AW to 9i is very wide about 16 yards about between clubs.    Long story short, I'm about to have the 5,6,7,8 iron bent 2 degrees weaker, 9 iron 1 degree weaker, and AW 1 degree stronger.

Yes,  it is safe to bend pretty much any iron;  there is always a risk of breakage or damage to the clubs which is why you want to find good builders.   

You have primarily mentioned loft throughout your discussions and now mention modern lofts.   Post a chart of your reliable carry distances with each club.   If you are gapping clubs,  you start with your longest (driver) and shortest (sand/lob) club and determine their distances.   Then fit clubs with typically 15 yard gaps,  but do 10 or 12 or whatever number you want between them.   The slower your top speed it, the less clubs you will probably need in your bag or maybe you skip a club or two as you work through the set.   For example you say the 5 iron carries the same distance as your hybrid; unless you have a specialty need for both clubs drop one of them. 

 

  

 

[pakman92]

9 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Yes,  it is safe to bend pretty much any iron;  there is always a risk of breakage or damage to the clubs which is why you want to find good builders.   

You have primarily mentioned loft throughout your discussions and now mention modern lofts.   Post a chart of your reliable carry distances with each club.   If you are gapping clubs,  you start with your longest (driver) and shortest (sand/lob) club and determine their distances.   Then fit clubs with typically 15 yard gaps,  but do 10 or 12 or whatever number you want between them.   The slower your top speed it, the less clubs you will probably need in your bag or maybe you skip a club or two as you work through the set.   For example you say the 5 iron carries the same distance as your hybrid; unless you have a specialty need for both clubs drop one of them. 

 

  

 

P790 are pretty strong lofted with 7 iron @ 30.5 deg.  Here are the distances and the lofts.   I could get rid of my 5 iron all together and play with 13 clubs.  Alternatively, I could weaken 5-9 and tighten the lofts to be 4 degrees apart which is what I'm planning on doing.   These are all CARRY distances.

Driver (11.5)  235 carry

3w (17) 212 carry

3 hybrid (20) 200

hybrid (24) 186

5i  180

6i 168

7i 159

8i 150

9i 134

pw 118

AW 105

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RollingGreens]

You are pretty clustered from irons 6-8. Assuming that it’s not a strike problem with your 5 iron and everything is fitted you are probably right that you would need more swing speed to make up the 20 yards you are looking for. I’m a little surprised you aren’t getting more distance out of the hybrids 

[cnosil]

47 minutes ago, pakman92 said:

P790 are pretty strong lofted with 7 iron @ 30.5 deg.  Here are the distances and the lofts.   I could get rid of my 5 iron all together and play with 13 clubs.  Alternatively, I could weaken 5-9 and tighten the lofts to be 4 degrees apart which is what I'm planning on doing.   These are all CARRY distances.

Driver (11.5)  235 carry

3w (17) 212 carry

3 hybrid (20) 200

hybrid (24) 186

5i  180

6i 168

7i 159

8i 150

9i 134

pw 118

AW 105

don't really care what the lofts are;  you are trying to hit/determine distance for clubs.    Looking at your  carry numbers,  i'd consider dropping the 5i and then tweaking the lofts to get that 12ish degree gaping between clubs; some might be stronger and some might be weaker.   What are your yardages for SW and lob 

[chisag]

1 hour ago, cnosil said:

Then fit clubs with typically 15 yard gaps

 

... Yup. Most relatively consistent ball strikers have a 15yd gap but also have crossover distances. Depending on the day, the conditions and several other factors it is pretty common to have these kind of gaps when actually playing golf, especially with 5* between irons which can produce an even wider gapping:

Pw - 115-130
9i - 125 - 140
8i - 135-150
7i - 145-160

... There is a normal stock distance in the middle of these numbers and it's great to have that kind of perfect yardage for any given shot but golf is a game where you are often in between yardages. So say you have 138yds to a middle pin which puts you on the upper end of a 9i and lower end of an 8i. Feeling good and swinging well it is an easy choice for a 9i but a little wind is in your face or slightly uphill or not swinging great at the moment, then an 8i is the choice and a perfect shot puts you on the back of the green but more than likely around pin high. As has been discussed many times most Ams almost always pick less club banking on their stock yardage and come up short, sometimes woefully short. Obviously some + index players and those on tour have a tighter gapping but even the average single digit index player will have wider gapping. 

[NM01]

2 hours ago, pakman92 said:

@RickyBobby_PR Since my AW Is 105 and PW 121 and 9i 137, I just need to get my 5 iron fly 201 (additional 20 yards).   Honestly, I’m finding it hard to accept that  with modern lofts people don’t have the same gapping issues I do.    I have better gapping when irons are even 4 degrees apart instead of 5 deg for shorter irons and 3 between longer irons.   

Alternatively, as you suggest, one of three things may be happening.  1.  I don’t know my yardages as you suggest.  2. Or Im not consistent enough to know my distance.  3.   I’m making up my story.    I assure you none of those 3 is the case.  I’m very much a numbers person and my yardages are on LM I own.  I’m certainly not consistent as I would like to be, but am a good enough player to know how far my good shots will using a launch monitor.   
 

So are you saying I have a phantom gapping problem?   I ask if it’s safe to bend irons and you tell me I’m making up my gapping issues?   I don’t get it why this is coming from  a well respected member of the forum.  

I was saying that what I read is that you had 16 yard gaps between each club. That’s not a gapping problem that’s consistency thru the set. And that not full swinging every club especially in the scoring clubs.

Now looking at your post with your actual yardages. Some stuff that stands out.

You either have clubs that are out of spec from in your mid irons as well as possibly lacking the club head speed to heel elevate the ball into the right launch window. Could be not making as much center contact with them as your short irons. 
 

Look at launch, spin, apex and land angles for your clubs throughout the bag.

I would start first with just getting the loft and low checked on all your irons and make sure they are in spec. Once they are then look at all your numbers and see what they look like 

[pakman92]

Well, I got it done.  I've had the clubs for about a week now.  I'm really liking the gaps I have now from 5i - aw.   Thanks, everyone for input and suggestions.