Shaft weight or flex

[Brian A]

Which is more important shaft weight or flex? I got a Ping 2iron and love the head but the smoke red is too high launching and whippy. In my driver I use smoke green 6.5 but they only make that in a 70g instead of the 80g hy weight. So I am wondering 6.5 70g green or 80hy smoke black (which still feels whippy and high launch)

[Micah T]

I’m curious what “too high launch” is for you: got some launch/spin/peak height numbers for us to look at?

[Brian A]

I don’t have the exact numbers (as the sim I have access to wont pick up the 2 iron) but I’m hitting a 2 iron 200 yards as almost a deep pop fly with 115+ driver swing speed (so obviously less).

 

I know my swing is too steep and the backspin I put on the ball is high. That being said the smoke green 6.5 on my driver really brought the height / backspin down and I got about 30+ yards 

[heavygolffeels]

Weight in my opinion. 

[hckymeyer]

Which is more important shaft weight or flex?  Both.  

Black and Green are very similar in profile, but what tip size do you need?  I thought the green was only available in .335 so you'd have to shim it for a 2i.  If it's a .370 hosel 2i then the black hybrid should be a a fit without doing extra work.  

If you think the black 80 hybrid is still whippy you could move up to the 90, or just up to a TX instead of the 6.5 in flex.

Complete side note here so please take it with a many grains of salt.  I've never seen you play or watched you swing.  However with 115+ drive SS I would think your 200yd club would closer to a 5i than a 2i.  I would suggest getting fit if at all possible because I don't think you are getting everything you can out of that club.

[RickyBobby_PR]

Shaft weigh then the stiffness profile.

Flex is an arbitrary letter that has no standard in the industry. There are R flexes in one that play stiffer than an x flex in another.

Flex is only comparable when you are looking at the same shaft line in the same weight class. example px hazrdus black 60 6.0 is going to be different that the 70 6.0

Modus 120 shafts are softer than other brands as an example.

 

find the right shaft weight and the right feel of a shaft and ignore the flex stamped on the shaft. 

[Brian A]

10 hours ago, hckymeyer said:

Which is more important shaft weight or flex?  Both.  

Black and Green are very similar in profile, but what tip size do you need?  I thought the green was only available in .335 so you'd have to shim it for a 2i.  If it's a .370 hosel 2i then the black hybrid should be a a fit without doing extra work.  

If you think the black 80 hybrid is still whippy you could move up to the 90, or just up to a TX instead of the 6.5 in flex.

Complete side note here so please take it with a many grains of salt.  I've never seen you play or watched you swing.  However with 115+ drive SS I would think your 200yd club would closer to a 5i than a 2i.  I would suggest getting fit if at all possible because I don't think you are getting everything you can out of that club.

 Like I said my biggest problem is steep attack angle, creating backspin. I hit my 4 iron 215 and the 2 iron 200 (per Arccos avgs) but that just doesn’t make sense to me. I can almost feel the club head not getting around. Especially when I try to do a very low punch out. 
 

it’s a .370 tip, which you are correct green doesn’t have so they’d have to shim it. (I wouldn’t do the work cause I don’t trust myself.) 

[hckymeyer]

2i is not an easy club to hit, have you tried a hybrid or high lofted wood?  I'm not sure what your gaps are with the rest of your clubs but sometimes it's easier to just move along rather than keep tweaking a club that's not working.

I got some good advice many years ago that I try to follow.  If you can't hit a club reasonably well (to the best of your current ability) 80% of the time then it has no business being in your bag.

[RickyBobby_PR]

56 minutes ago, Brian A said:

 Like I said my biggest problem is steep attack angle, creating backspin. I hit my 4 iron 215 and the 2 iron 200 (per Arccos avgs) but that just doesn’t make sense to me. I can almost feel the club head not getting around. Especially when I try to do a very low punch out. 
 

it’s a .370 tip, which you are correct green doesn’t have so they’d have to shim it. (I wouldn’t do the work cause I don’t trust myself.) 

Swing flaws are making it even harder to hit the 2i. 
 

The reality of shafts is that nobody can tell you what’s better between 2 shafts. How things feel to one person can feel differently to another. That feel can have positive, negative or no influence in performance of a club. 
 

If the 80g feels whippy then you may want to go to a heavier shaft like Gen 4 black hybrid in 90 of 105.

[Brian A]

2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Swing flaws are making it even harder to hit the 2i. 
 

The reality of shafts is that nobody can tell you what’s better between 2 shafts. How things feel to one person can feel differently to another. That feel can have positive, negative or no influence in performance of a club. 
 

If the 80g feels whippy then you may want to go to a heavier shaft like Gen 4 black hybrid in 90 of 105.

Understandable, just hit my 4 iron so well and never really liked the hybrid 

[cnosil]

31 minutes ago, Brian A said:

Understandable, just hit my 4 iron so well 

I hit my 6 iron really well but don’t hit a 5 iron really well.   There is often  a point in the set where performance breaks down.  

[GolfSpy_APH]

On 4/19/2023 at 3:59 PM, Brian A said:

Which is more important shaft weight or flex? I got a Ping 2iron and love the head but the smoke red is too high launching and whippy. In my driver I use smoke green 6.5 but they only make that in a 70g instead of the 80g hy weight. So I am wondering 6.5 70g green or 80hy smoke black (which still feels whippy and high launch)

I use to think more on weight.

However I did just buy a set of p790 which had graphite reg shafts. Played my first round with them this morning and well they worked very well. 

I have steel shafts coming to replace, but I would be lying if I said I am hesitant to do it before I play a few more rounds. 

So neither? 

[CFreddie]

3 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

I use to think more on weight.

However I did just buy a set of p790 which had graphite reg shafts. Played my first round with them this morning and well they worked very well. 

I have steel shafts coming to replace, but I would be lying if I said I am hesitant to do it before I play a few more rounds. 

So neither? 

Interesting @GolfSpy_APH - I've always been weight > flex type of person, but don't have consistent access to a simulator to test & tinker.  

 

How heavy were the graphite shafts by chance?  What felt different about the way you played that is causing you to rethink putting steel back on them?

[GolfSpy_APH]

4 minutes ago, CFreddie said:

Interesting @GolfSpy_APH - I've always been weight > flex type of person, but don't have consistent access to a simulator to test & tinker.  

 

How heavy were the graphite shafts by chance?  What felt different about the way you played that is causing you to rethink putting steel back on them?

UST Mamya Recoil Dart 65 F3

So 65 grams. 

Of course it felt light, but still stable. I could still put a good swing on it and not feel like I lost the club face. 

Honestly it just felt easy. I think that is the best way to describe it.

[DonnieGolfs]

I've done a lot of researching into the fitting process in recent months since I am in the market for new irons. Between steel and graphite that I've seen is Graphite tends to be easier to swing but is less consistent distance wise. Assuming a stell shaft is going to replicate the flex each and every swing where graphite can vary more greatly. 

Weight wise Chris Trott has a few videos taking about this but ideally you're going to want a similar weight club to club in your irons, creates more repeatability with your strikes.

Want a weight that isn't too heavy getting the shaft around and a flex that helps you hit it straight. Too shift tends to go left too flexible tends to go right. For higher or lower launch you can look into shafts rhat have different kick points and therefore different launch characteristics.

Find a weight to maximize your speed l.

Use speed for your flex determination. 

Try and get spin numbers and launch angles for your current shaft and use that to find a better match.

[CFreddie]

7 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

UST Mamya Recoil Dart 65 F3

So 65 grams. 

Of course it felt light, but still stable. I could still put a good swing on it and not feel like I lost the club face. 

Honestly it just felt easy. I think that is the best way to describe it.

Thats great - I have the Recoil 95 in my ZX Utility and love the feel of it.  Never have considered a similar (albeit lighter) shaft in my irons though....

[GolfSpy_APH]

2 minutes ago, CFreddie said:

Thats great - I have the Recoil 95 in my ZX Utility and love the feel of it.  Never have considered a similar (albeit lighter) shaft in my irons though....

Chances are I will be switching out, but I will be giving them a fair shake and maybe try going after them on the range a bit. The ball flight was very high at times (also not a terrible thing)

[CFreddie]

2 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Chances are I will be switching out, but I will be giving them a fair shake and maybe try going after them on the range a bit. The ball flight was very high at times (also not a terrible thing)

Totally - can't hurt to try it out!

[Fred Mitchell]

"Flex" varies from manufacturer to manufacturer and using just swing speed can be an issue as well if you have a long smooth swing to generate 100 MPH swing speed you would potentially use a shaft with more flex than a person with 100MPH swing speed with a short and for a better word violent swing. 

[Sinbin]

On 4/19/2023 at 7:59 AM, Brian A said:

Which is more important shaft weight or flex? I got a Ping 2iron and love the head but the smoke red is too high launching and whippy. In my driver I use smoke green 6.5 but they only make that in a 70g instead of the 80g hy weight. So I am wondering 6.5 70g green or 80hy smoke black (which still feels whippy and high launch)

I used to think weight, but recently discovered that my stiff driver shaft is only 56g. It does feel stiff and I hit it very well (108ish club speed), but was very surprised to find it was more a weight of a standard shaft. The real answer is probably that its not a single thing more important; its the complex combination of club head weight, shaft weight and stiffness, kickpoints, your swing and tempo. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, Brian A said:

Understandable, just hit my 4 iron so well and never really liked the hybrid 

The longer the club the more prevalent the swing issue will become. A steep swing is going to lead to some form of compensation whether it’s dropping the trail shoulder and coming to far from the inside and having to use the hands a lot and early extend. Could be over the top and several things.

Just like some hit a 5w better than a 3w and this get more distance. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

I use to think more on weight.

However I did just buy a set of p790 which had graphite reg shafts. Played my first round with them this morning and well they worked very well. 

I have steel shafts coming to replace, but I would be lying if I said I am hesitant to do it before I play a few more rounds. 

So neither? 

 

1 hour ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

UST Mamya Recoil Dart 65 F3

So 65 grams. 

Of course it felt light, but still stable. I could still put a good swing on it and not feel like I lost the club face. 

Honestly it just felt easy. I think that is the best way to describe it.

Well recoils play stiffer. It’s not the flex it’s the stiffness profile. 

[Merlin1313]

On 4/20/2023 at 11:21 AM, DonnieGolfs said:

I've done a lot of researching into the fitting process in recent months since I am in the market for new irons. Between steel and graphite that I've seen is Graphite tends to be easier to swing but is less consistent distance wise. Assuming a stell shaft is going to replicate the flex each and every swing where graphite can vary more greatly. 

Weight wise Chris Trott has a few videos taking about this but ideally you're going to want a similar weight club to club in your irons, creates more repeatability with your strikes.

Want a weight that isn't too heavy getting the shaft around and a flex that helps you hit it straight. Too shift tends to go left too flexible tends to go right. For higher or lower launch you can look into shafts rhat have different kick points and therefore different launch characteristics.

Find a weight to maximize your speed l.

Use speed for your flex determination. 

Try and get spin numbers and launch angles for your current shaft and use that to find a better match.

That's pretty much what I did when I got fitted. I compared all the numbers of the shafts swing speed/weight/flex/launch/descent/spin. I had been swinging KBS C Taper Lites(S). I tried Nippon Modus 3 105s(S & X), Modus 3 120s(S), PX Rifle 105 Tour Flighted (S & X), KBS Tour Lites(S), C-Taper Lites(S), KBS Tours(S), KBS Tour V (S). In the end, the only thing that mattered was getting the shaft that fit MY needs and how I wanted the shaft to behave and feel as well as the overall results. The actual weight/flex wasn't really an issue(because there's SO many variations even within the same manufacturer) as long as I got the results I wanted. It took a REALLY long time- but I got it figured out

Edited May 9, 2023 by Merlin1313

[tdroma98]

I'd agree for irons, it's weight & flex kick points.  I just traded my Maverick Pro's with Elevate 105 gram, stiff shafts. I'd been swinging Project X 6.0 stiff shafts, 123 grams. What a difference.  In many ways & some I didn't plan for.  Thought going lighter with iron shafts, because I was getting older would be a benefit, but it was wrong decision for me.  With the 105 gram shaft I installed the same type of grip as was on the Project X- Golf Pride Tour Wrap 2G Jumbo (78grams).  It changed the feel of the Maverick Irons, which I did not like. So in a process of elimination, I was able to find the Superstroke Jumbo at 50gram, to feel the head of the club.  I finally had it and traded the irons for a Callaway Paradym X driver.  The 105 gram is not for me (yet).  Went back to an old set of irons with 125 gram Dynamic Gold shaft and instantly felt the difference. 

As for driver shafts, I learned several years ago practicing with Senior PGA Pro about shaft kick points.  I Had a driver with a Graffaloy Blue 65 gram stiff shaft, which had a low kick point. Pro told me it was the wrong shaft for me and I needed to be swinging a Mid to High Kick point shaft. Eyes glassed over lol! However, I've learned a couple of things about the driver shaft, including the Kick Point & Torque.  Heavier shafts for me - 75 gram, fatigue does set it late in the round (sounds weird) too heavy.  Paradym X Driver, the shaft fitted for: Mid/High Kick - 60 gram weight, 3.5 Torque. This is the lowest torque I've used, which basically helps keep the face stable, especially with a faster swing tempo.  I have a 50gram Stiff Evenflow driver shaft, with a 4.7 torque. you can feel the difference between it and the Hzrdous Black 60 gram shaft.  I will say, the lower torque, I'm hitting the driver much straighter and longer! 

Sorry for being long winded. Bottom line: shaft weight & flex does make difference in irons.  Flex is important with driver shaft as is the Kickpoint, Torque & Weight are what I focus on.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

15 minutes ago, tdroma98 said:

I'd agree for irons, it's weight & flex kick points.  I just traded my Maverick Pro's with Elevate 105 gram, stiff shafts. I'd been swinging Project X 6.0 stiff shafts, 123 grams. What a difference.  In many ways & some I didn't plan for.  Thought going lighter with iron shafts, because I was getting older would be a benefit, but it was wrong decision for me.  With the 105 gram shaft I installed the same type of grip as was on the Project X- Golf Pride Tour Wrap 2G Jumbo (78grams).  It changed the feel of the Maverick Irons, which I did not like. So in a process of elimination, I was able to find the Superstroke Jumbo at 50gram, to feel the head of the club.  I finally had it and traded the irons for a Callaway Paradym X driver.  The 105 gram is not for me (yet).  Went back to an old set of irons with 125 gram Dynamic Gold shaft and instantly felt the difference. 

As for driver shafts, I learned several years ago practicing with Senior PGA Pro about shaft kick points.  I Had a driver with a Graffaloy Blue 65 gram stiff shaft, which had a low kick point. Pro told me it was the wrong shaft for me and I needed to be swinging a Mid to High Kick point shaft. Eyes glassed over lol! However, I've learned a couple of things about the driver shaft, including the Kick Point & Torque.  Heavier shafts for me - 75 gram, fatigue does set it late in the round (sounds weird) too heavy.  Paradym X Driver, the shaft fitted for: Mid/High Kick - 60 gram weight, 3.5 Torque. This is the lowest torque I've used, which basically helps keep the face stable, especially with a faster swing tempo.  I have a 50gram Stiff Evenflow driver shaft, with a 4.7 torque. you can feel the difference between it and the Hzrdous Black 60 gram shaft.  I will say, the lower torque, I'm hitting the driver much straighter and longer! 

Sorry for being long winded. Bottom line: shaft weight & flex does make difference in irons.  Flex is important with driver shaft as is the Kickpoint, Torque & Weight are what I focus on.  

Disagree about kick point as do several fitters and experts like Tom Wishon.

There are numerous posts on wrx about it as well, hers one from a fitter in Europe who has large amounts of data collected over many years of fitting pros down thru high handicaps 

https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1916441-help-please-hardstepping-project-x-lz-55/?do=findComment&comment=24595828

[tdroma98]

28 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Disagree about kick point as do several fitters and experts like Tom Wishon.

There are numerous posts on wrx about it as well, hers one from a fitter in Europe who has large amounts of data collected over many years of fitting pros down thru high handicaps 

https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1916441-help-please-hardstepping-project-x-lz-55/?do=findComment&comment=24595828

I'll agree I don't put as much emphasis on kick point concerning iron shafts.  However, for driver shafts, for me it's a clear difference.  I can tell  the difference in a driver shaft with a low kick point vs a high kick point. The performance of the driver shaft with a low kick point is not good.  My old current expert club fitter also agrees and advised a high kick point with a lower torque in driver shaft, and he was right. He was also right about the heavier iron shaft, I won't tell him he was right about the Elevate 105 shafts, but he doesn't let me forget either !

For Iron shafts, the heavier shaft is better for me vs a 105gram or lighter.  I've tried the steelfiber 110gram Aerotech shaft and like it, which also allows me to put a heavier grip on club and still maintain the feel.  I'd agree with the issue of kick point in an iron shaft doesn't mean much. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

17 minutes ago, tdroma98 said:

I'll agree I don't put as much emphasis on kick point concerning iron shafts.  However, for driver shafts, for me it's a clear difference.  I can tell  the difference in a driver shaft with a low kick point vs a high kick point. The performance of the driver shaft with a low kick point is not good.  My old current expert club fitter also agrees and advised a high kick point with a lower torque in driver shaft, and he was right. He was also right about the heavier iron shaft, I won't tell him he was right about the Elevate 105 shafts, but he doesn't let me forget either !

For Iron shafts, the heavier shaft is better for me vs a 105gram or lighter.  I've tried the steelfiber 110gram Aerotech shaft and like it, which also allows me to put a heavier grip on club and still maintain the feel.  I'd agree with the issue of kick point in an iron shaft doesn't mean much. 

It’s not the kickpoint/balance ooont hat you like it the location of it and how to affects the weight. So again it gets back to 2 things weight and feel. 
 

From Wishon’s golf myth article on wrx 

Performance wise, the shaft, 1) can affect the dynamic loft of the clubhead at impact within a narrow range of 2 to 3 degrees, but only for those golfers with a later to very late release; 2) will chiefly control the total weight of the club, which in turn can have an effect on the golfer’s clubhead speed, 3) can affect some golfers’ (not all) confidence and swing consistency by displaying a “bending feel” during the swing that is either more preferred or less preferred by the golfer. That’s it, that’s the full list of what the shaft can do.

from Howard jones 

https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1860305-shafts-when-to-change-and-when-to-tweak-lofts/

 

[tdroma98]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

It’s not the kickpoint/balance ooont hat you like it the location of it and how to affects the weight. So again it gets back to 2 things weight and feel. 
 

From Wishon’s golf myth article on wrx 

Performance wise, the shaft, 1) can affect the dynamic loft of the clubhead at impact within a narrow range of 2 to 3 degrees, but only for those golfers with a later to very late release; 2) will chiefly control the total weight of the club, which in turn can have an effect on the golfer’s clubhead speed, 3) can affect some golfers’ (not all) confidence and swing consistency by displaying a “bending feel” during the swing that is either more preferred or less preferred by the golfer. That’s it, that’s the full list of what the shaft can do.

from Howard jones 

https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1860305-shafts-when-to-change-and-when-to-tweak-lofts/

 

Thanks for sharing the Howard Jones comments. It's good.  

We'll agree on the iron shaft, totally comes down to weight of the shaft.  Dynamic Gold Tour Issue X100 or S300 & Project X iron shafts at 120-130 gram is definitely game changer for me vs an 105 gram shaft. Howard even sort of addresses in article it may not be good to have shafts to go down from 130 to 115 grams. Having changed my iron weight from 125gram to 105 grams did impact the feel from 6i down to GW, shafts were too light. Had nothing to do with kick.  Wedge Flex shafts give me the performance needed for wedges.

We'll disagree on the driver shaft, I've been successful in fittings by choosing a shaft which specs give kickpoint being mid/high or high.  Doesn't matter if shaft is an X or S and weight is 50, 60 or 75 grams.  I've used them all.  The performance which has worked best for me over 20yrs is to consider finding a driver shaft with the Weight, Shaft Stiffness, Kickpoint and Torque.  

I appreciate the link to Howard Jones, it's interesting!

[Thin2win]

I guess the thing that hasn't really been mentioned or discussed here in much detail is swing weight. A heavier shaft tends will increase the overall weight of a club,  but tends to decrease the swing weight.  Just like a lighter graphite shaft lowers the overall weight of the club it also increases the swing weight.

It might be good to figure out your swing weight of your 4i that you hit well and try to get your 2i to the same if it isn't.

Both swing weight and total club weight affect your swing speed.  You could in theory build a driver with total weight twice a normal driver but with a lower swing weight,  think sledge hammer but holding it upside down.

A lighter shaft but with a heavier grip or some lead tape right under the grip could balance out the changes. 

So much plays into this. for me,  finding the right flex profile is more important than weight or stiffness.  Fujikura motore = good results,  ventus = bad results.  And there is lots of tour data to say that the ventus is one of the best shafts out there.

My recommendation is get a pga tour fitting van delivered to your driveway with a few hours to play around.  that and,  you know,  give up on the 2i. That club isn't even played on tour anymore. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, tdroma98 said:

Thanks for sharing the Howard Jones comments. It's good.  

We'll agree on the iron shaft, totally comes down to weight of the shaft.  Dynamic Gold Tour Issue X100 or S300 & Project X iron shafts at 120-130 gram is definitely game changer for me vs an 105 gram shaft. Howard even sort of addresses in article it may not be good to have shafts to go down from 130 to 115 grams. Having changed my iron weight from 125gram to 105 grams did impact the feel from 6i down to GW, shafts were too light. Had nothing to do with kick.  Wedge Flex shafts give me the performance needed for wedges.

We'll disagree on the driver shaft, I've been successful in fittings by choosing a shaft which specs give kickpoint being mid/high or high.  Doesn't matter if shaft is an X or S and weight is 50, 60 or 75 grams.  I've used them all.  The performance which has worked best for me over 20yrs is to consider finding a driver shaft with the Weight, Shaft Stiffness, Kickpoint and Torque.  

I appreciate the link to Howard Jones, it's interesting!

There is no kick point. It’s a balance point. And that alone isn’t a way a shaft would be chosen, it’s a combo The balance point with weight, flex profile, ei profile plus the head weight, loft, center of gravity.

I prefer a higher balance point driver and typically fit into a counterbalanced design. If I went purely on that I could any counterbalanced shaft, which in reality isn’t the case. I tried the tensei ck orange shaft. I tried the shaft in different heads, different flexes and different weights. It never worked out.

 

37 minutes ago, Thin2win said:

 

I guess the thing that hasn't really been mentioned or discussed here in much detail is swing weight. A heavier shaft tends will increase the overall weight of a club,  but tends to decrease the swing weight.  Just like a lighter graphite shaft lowers the overall weight of the club it also increases the swing weight.

 

It’s because swing weight isn’t as important as people think it is. Getting the proper weight shaft and feel is what matters and if that it right it doesn’t matter what the swing weight is. Another topic that Stuart_G, Howard_Jones and a few other very knowledgeable people talk about on wrx when it comes to fitting.