Pete Cowen Trail Arm Move - Now also advocated by Dr Noel Rousseau for the advanced golfer

[Wildthing]

Here are 2 videos which recommend a trail arm movement that does not match the evidence from biomechanics research data. 

Surprisingly advocated by Pete Cowen and now by Dr Noel Rousseau. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAzZDxNJSKU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ0YjnHTqUA

Why is it wrong?

Here is the graph again for over 60 elite golfers (tournament/major winners) whose forearm and wrist movements were measured on AMM3D system . 

 

They are both advocating spinning the trail forearm and pushing down with a retained 'cupped/extended' wrist 'into/through' impact  but the graphs above suggest otherwise.

The MD position on the x-axis of the above graphs is P6 (shaft horizontal in the 'Mid-Downswing' position). 

1st graph - shows trail wrist is moving to less cupped (in the flexion direction) . The wrist 'cupping/extension'  is not retained from P6  to P7 (impact).

2nd graph - shows that the trail forearm is supinating from P6  to maybe P6.8/P6.9 (clubhead about 15-18 inches from the ball) before it starts pronating slightly. It's certainly not being actively pronated as suggested by Pete Cowen and Dr Noel Rousseau.

This is a qualitative golf theory with no evidence to back it up which may (or may not) work for specific golfers.

 

Addendum :

I haven't seen the Jon Sinclair radial/ulnar deviation graphs but I've seen several 'pro' trail wrist graphs that do show ulnar deviation of the trail wrist happening from P6-P7 .  If this is the case , then the trail wrist is undergoing circumduction (ie. ulnar deviation & flexion directional movements happening simultaneously).  This will tend to open the clubface even while the lead forearm is supinating to close the clubface, and may help reduce rate of closure of the clubface just before/at/through impact.

 

Note that the clubface won't actually open if the lead forearm is applying a greater rotational torque to close the clubface, but the net effect will be to reduce the handle twist velocity and the ROC (rate of clubface closure).

Edited November 7, 2023 by Wildthing

[Wildthing]

Chris Como seems to be promoting the same Cowen move .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smpZfHOIb94&t=73s

But this contradicts what is happening in tour pro swings if you look at the following videos with Jon Sinclair. 

Check this video out with Jon Sinclair as guest from 21:45 to 23:46. The trail forearm is supinating from P6-P6.5 and then rapidly pronating into P7 (impact). Personally , I think the avatar is slightly out of sync with the green line on the graph and the rapid pronation is happening much closer to impact maybe P6.7.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MapJyBzr-Ug

Here's another video  and check out what he says from 25:16 onwards.

In his swing the pronation of the trail forearm happened very late and maybe around P6.8-P6.9 , because he is a fader of the ball. If one was a drawer of the ball the pronation would happen maybe around P6.5-P6.7.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePPmSuOhg54&list=PLWPo518n87uw5EnQvGeuJdBYWQGSYCauV&index=37

If you saw the 1st Jon Sinclair video link above you will note what he says from 21:48 .

"This particular player , you see this blue line at the top. That's his lead arm supinating, so this is degrees/sec at this point, this is kinematics but you can see the velocity how that's spinning. When you look over here with the trail hand , his right supinating, that's what we were seeing, supinating , supinating. Then right at the end , this massive speed up in the pronation  (ie. trail wrist) that's going to cause some serious speed to help squaring the club. Everybody can see how fast that is at that moment, along with the ulnar deviation (ie. that red line in the right hand and left hand) and that's going very rapidly with the flexion and extension."

"If we looked at just the rotation of his left arm , it would be somewhere in the neighbourhood ( just his wrist)  would be at 1500-1800 degs/sec at impact"

"If you go to short irons , that's even faster"

"So everybody needs to get an idea that those arms and hands are squaring the clubface. "

" If you looked at the kinematic sequence in this particular player, everything else, all the other segments are slowing"

"If we were just to rely on the body to square our club we'd be in big trouble. We'd be hitting a lot of balls so far right we couldn't find any of them."

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Wildthing

[Goober]

Great thread here.

[Goober]

Reminds me of hurling