Debate: Golfers Don't Deserve Free Relief from Fairway Divots

[HeathS16]

56 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The problem with the support for relief is there is no accepting the good with the bad and only want good. Those in favor aren’t willing to put their ball in the woods when it hits a tree and kicks out somewhere. 
 

The number of divots people have to hit out in their golf lifetime is very low. 

I don’t disagree that it happens very infrequently, all the more reason for relief when it does happen. Maybe I’m not following your point though, I think it’s logical to be ok with a good break in the fairway even if the shot wasn’t picture perfect and hit an object to get there. I’m strictly talking shots that are in the fairway not ones that “should have” been elsewhere. If that was the case I’d be arguing that shots that run out of the fairway should be placed back in. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

4 minutes ago, HeathS16 said:

I don’t disagree that it happens very infrequently, all the more reason for relief when it does happen. Maybe I’m not following your point though, I think it’s logical to be ok with a good break in the fairway even if the shot wasn’t picture perfect and hit an object to get there. I’m strictly talking shots that are in the fairway not ones that “should have” been elsewhere. If that was the case I’d be arguing that shots that run out of the fairway should be placed back in. 

Exactly why there should be no relief. It’s not happening enough to change the basics fundamental of golf. 
 

Nobody has to play out of a divot. People just don’t want to score higher by taking drops and that goes for more than just divots. Read the comments here and elsewhere on the forum of people who play free drops or want free drops from tree roots and ground conditions that could damage a club. None of those require anyone to play from them, take an unplayable and move on 

 

[HeathS16]

33 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Exactly why there should be no relief. It’s not happening enough to change the basics fundamental of golf. 
 

Nobody has to play out of a divot. People just don’t want to score higher by taking drops and that goes for more than just divots. Read the comments here and elsewhere on the forum of people who play free drops or want free drops from tree roots and ground conditions that could damage a club. None of those require anyone to play from them, take an unplayable and move on 

 

Agree to disagree I suppose. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

9 hours ago, HeathS16 said:

Agree to disagree I suppose. 

It then becomes a debate over any imprecation of like in the fairway gets relief and the game would then change from play it as it lies to preferred lies and that’s not golf.

And if anyone wants to use the rules of golf during their rounds they can play preferred lies in their fairway as they or their group are the committee. You can drop from anything you like in the fairway and get free relief and enjoy the round and not have to give up a stroke for unplayable or for not being abke to successfully advance a ball out of a divot.

 

[Another Steve]

Not saying that I played out of all of them, but i feel like I've had mine and a few other golfers lifetime share of ball in a divot lies….. 

once a season - OK I could agree with you….. more than once every couple weeks… no bueno. 

[HeathS16]

5 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

It then becomes a debate over any imprecation of like in the fairway gets relief and the game would then change from play it as it lies to preferred lies and that’s not golf.

And if anyone wants to use the rules of golf during their rounds they can play preferred lies in their fairway as they or their group are the committee. You can drop from anything you like in the fairway and get free relief and enjoy the round and not have to give up a stroke for unplayable or for not being abke to successfully advance a ball out of a divot.

 

If there was a rule for relief from divots it would need to be written very narrowly, so there is a clear definition of what does and what doesn't constitute a divot.  That is where I do agree with the article that it could sometimes be difficult to fully define what a divot is vs what it isn't which IMO is the best counter-argument to getting relief. 

Couldn't the rule could just be written and apply to divots as an extension of the appendix rule dealing with course damage? I'm not saying preferred lies should always be a thing but the only exception could be divots as that is technically damage to the course. 

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

48 minutes ago, HeathS16 said:

If there was a rule for relief from divots it would need to be written very narrowly, so there is a clear definition of what does and what doesn't constitute a divot. 

And herein lies the issue. It can’t be because all divots aren’t the same. Then you have the different grass types repair differently. I believe Dave touched on this in one of his replies or someone else did. Which is the point that has been made by myself and at least Dave in this thread and others along the same topic as well as by others on this forum and others.

50 minutes ago, HeathS16 said:

Couldn't the rule could just be written and apply to divots as an extension of the appendix rule dealing with course damage? I'm not saying preferred lies should always be a thing but the only exception could be divots as that is technically damage to the course. 

Are you talking abnormal course conditions? If so then no because that pertains to conditions that aren’t part of the challenge of playing golf. A divot is part of that challenge because the challenge of golf is play your ball as it lies and someone making a divot is something that happens in the normal playing of a round.

Similar to why as Dave pointed out they can’t be considered ground under repair.

And trying to get a divot into those again presents the challenge of when it’s no longer allowed to be considered one of those categories. 

[Stuka44]

19 hours ago, HeathS16 said:

I don’t disagree that it happens very infrequently,

 

HeathS16 I urge you to go back and read my responses  in this thread, word for word.  I agree with you 100%  If there isn't a rule that says it should be changed,  then there can be no considering changing it. The fact that it is CREATED, by another player, and DOESN'T Affect all players in a round equally, as the last guy in  tournament has to dodge potentially 980 more divots than the first, is immaterial.  The fact that pro's stretch the rules as they are, and unless they are all ignorant of the rules, often ask for relief that is denied by officials, when they likely know they were not entitled,  is excusable.

What can't be risked, after all, because it is almost an ABSOLUTE GIVEN, utilizing the best possible definition of what a divot is and isn't,  is that You and I, and you would believe almost every other recreational golfer, who doesn't believe the rules are  perfect as they now are,   will seek to get relief from every possible lie that is not absolutely perfect(THIS HAS ALSO BEEN ASSERTED AS A GIVEN).  Believing that the rules for divots should be changed, as a matter of inference means, that you and I  seek to ignore every rule when we play, and believe that the OFFICIAL, rules of the game should reflect our wanting to do WHATEVER WE WANT, when we play, because stating that relief should be given for a divot, implies that we believe ALL RULES ARE BAD, and don't follow ANY.

The rules makers, and many of those who defend them, imply that this rule about divots, while not perfect, is the only rule of the game, which will have ever been misinterpreted, and nobody in the history of the game has ever gotten relief, or taken relief to which they weren't entitled, honestly, either though their own doing, or by a rules official.

For "fairness", but you know life isn't fair, so to try and make golf as fair as possible isn't really necessary(Now that's a ridiculous rationale for not changing something, ITS IN THEIR SEVERAL TIMES).  It's NOT AT ALL PREFERRABLE  that the first guy in a final round 72 man field, BE GIVEN RELIEF, on a 51/49.  call as judged by 100 officials(which means likely, his benefit of the relief on the close call is less), if this will result in my being given relief on a 100/0 lie in the final round when I have had to potentially dodge hundreds more divots, than the first guy did.  You should prefer to play out of a clear, beaver pelt gouge, created by another players club, that every person on the planet would recognize it as such, THAN FOR SOMEONE TO BE GIVEN HONESTLY GIVEN RELIEF ON A CLOSE CALL, AS THE RULE IS UNDERSTOOD. 

Just remember the main point! No rule as presently written has ever been purposely stretched or just outright disregarded by anyone, in any circumstance where they were using their established handicap, or under any circumstance where the "rules were being followed".

This is the "logic" you are up against.

 

Edited February 12 by Stuka44

[HeathS16]

Well I am knee deep in the weeds at this point I think. If it truly is the issue of writing a clear, concise & narrowed definition of a divot then perhaps the issue be shelved until we can indeed write a good one. I don't want to rehash old arguments as I do not want to be annoying. 

[THE GOLF GUY]

On 2/2/2024 at 2:57 PM, VTK said:

The game is hard enough. You shouldn't get a penalty when hitting a drive into the middle of the fairway. 

I absolutely agree , you should not  be punished for being in the fairway! GODAWGS!!!

Edited February 13 by THE GOLF GUY

[Brycwade]

After reading the article I can't really say I don't agree with the logic. I think it all boils down to your statement, "golf is whatever we want it to be". If your group is cool with removing balls from unfair lies (roots, footprints in bunkers, divots, etc.), then do that. 

[NubianRugby]

I started off thinking what kind of hater would argue against free relief from a fairway divot and then he laid out a strong case and convinced me.

Real talk? This is only an issue in competitive play and when you're gambling. Otherwise, most people are going to give themselves relief; I know I do!!!

[John Marchetto]

Thought I would get this out there to see if others feel the same or not.

Of all the rules that I think is the most unfair and inconsistent is not being able to take relief from a fairway divot.  It is a man made alteration to the course that is not the fault of the golfer.  You hit a great drive and then get penalized by being in a hole.  You can tamp down spike marks, fix ball marks, move loose impediments, get relief from sprinkler heads, imbedded ball, etc.,  so why not have a rule to drop within a foot of the divot. - (I’ll save footprints in bunkers for another day) 

[russtopherb]

Pretty big recent thread on this one - 

 

[GolfSpy_APH]

2 hours ago, russtopherb said:

Pretty big recent thread on this one - 

 

 

3 hours ago, John Marchetto said:

Thought I would get this out there to see if others feel the same or not.

Of all the rules that I think is the most unfair and inconsistent is not being able to take relief from a fairway divot.  It is a man made alteration to the course that is not the fault of the golfer.  You hit a great drive and then get penalized by being in a hole.  You can tamp down spike marks, fix ball marks, move loose impediments, get relief from sprinkler heads, imbedded ball, etc.,  so why not have a rule to drop within a foot of the divot. - (I’ll save footprints in bunkers for another day) 

Merged!

[CB Lobo 4 Life]

I will make my thoughts incredibly simple and universal. If you hit a good shot and land in the fairway you get the length of a scorecard to move the ball no closer to the hole. If you don't land in the fairway and get in a divot then you are SOL. 

[David T G Pro]

If out with my usual group and not in competition outside ourselves I would be all in favour of just knocking it out a few inches. 

[JMulligan]

I myself would say that YES free relief should be given if a ball lands in a divot. The player shouldn’t be allowed to advance the ball but should be able to take relief directly beside or behind the divot.

[DaveP043]

On 2/15/2024 at 12:29 PM, CB Lobo 4 Life said:

I will make my thoughts incredibly simple and universal. If you hit a good shot and land in the fairway you get the length of a scorecard to move the ball no closer to the hole. If you don't land in the fairway and get in a divot then you are SOL. 

 

On 2/21/2024 at 6:22 AM, David T G Pro said:

If out with my usual group and not in competition outside ourselves I would be all in favour of just knocking it out a few inches. 

 

41 minutes ago, JPMully said:

I myself would say that YES free relief should be given if a ball lands in a divot. The player shouldn’t be allowed to advance the ball but should be able to take relief directly beside or behind the divot.

Are you all arguing in favor of preferred lies any time you're in the fairway?  Or would you try to define specific circumstances that warrant relief, defining what constitutes a divot, and defining when it ceases to be a divot?

[CB Lobo 4 Life]

23 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

 

 

Are you all arguing in favor of preferred lies any time you're in the fairway?  Or would you try to define specific circumstances that warrant relief, defining what constitutes a divot, and defining when it ceases to be a divot?

I think some form of specificity will be required

 

[DaveP043]

3 hours ago, CB Lobo 4 Life said:

I think some form of specificity will be required

I agree.  Have you considered how to word a rule so that it can be consistently understood by all golfers?

[CalvinD]

I'd much prefer that you can move (but not clean) the ball 6" no closer to the hole any time you're in the fairway. Takes all of the "Is this a divot" questions out while still ensuring you have the challenge intended to you by the course designer for where you hit the ball.

Edited February 26 by CalvinD

[RickyBobby_PR]

52 minutes ago, CalvinD said:

I'd much prefer that you can move (but not clean) the ball 6" no closer to the hole any time you're in the fairway. Takes all of the "Is this a divot" questions out while still ensuring you have the challenge intended to you by the course designer for where you hit the ball.

So fundamentally change the concept of golf and play it al it lies. No thanks. But if one wants to do that they can either under the current rules for preferred lies or just play for fun, don’t keep a handicap and pick what rules to follow and what not, even make up rules if they choose

[Yasmooses]

Casual play… roll em.

Casual tournament play…  if the divot is egregious, allow them to roll.

Golfers should not be penalized for drives down the middle because people aren’t fixing their stuff.

[RickyBobby_PR]

4 minutes ago, Yasmooses said:

Casual play… roll em.

Casual tournament play…  if the divot is egregious, allow them to roll.

Golfers should not be penalized for drives down the middle because people aren’t fixing their stuff.

What’s egregious? Some may consider any divot or stage of repair egregious where others think it would only be for a deep gouge in the fairway.

 

[GolferXY]

On 2/5/2024 at 12:24 PM, Stuka44 said:

... disadvantaged by someone who doesn't care, or does it because they are an A-hole.   

Yep, guilty as charged.  I am guilty of leaving divots in the fairway, and after reading some of these posts, I DO feel like that a-hole. No excuses,  and in future I will be extra vigilant to fill or repair them as much as possible.

I often feel pressured to hurry because pace of play is terribly slow. It affects my play tee to green and I hate that I am manipulated by circumstances. Therefore I often don't replace divots, and if there's no sand or I'm in a cart, I leave the damn hole for the next guy or gal that happens to find that place.

Truly, I apologize to any whom I have disadvantaged. Starting tomorrow, I will fill every hole, replace every divot, and fix not only my ball marks but as many of those others while time permits.

If I can see the error of my ways, anybody can. Can't we all just get along and be conscientious of the next golfer who happens upon the remains of our latest effort at moving the ball forward?