Pace of play

[Donn lost in San Diego]

1.  Move all tees except the tips a few yards closer all the time.

2.  A Sign for newcomers explaining that colors of the tees relate to your skill and length of drives, as per the poster in here somewhere about a new group playing the tips, didn't know any better.

3.  Less tricky greens.  Less tricky placements.

4.  Put up fences at some Out of Bounds that catch balls.  Balls touching the fence (or that hit it and bounce back into play) are declared OOB and you don't take time looking for them.

I know, #1 and #3 might lead to score "inflation".  So be it.  You are still playing against your group or your club, all facing the same course.  If everybody scores 1 or 2 shots better and you shave 20 minutes , that is a good trade, eh?

5.  Harvest lost balls and sell them 50 cents each limit 2 at the pro shop, so if I lose a ball I am less likely to waste your time finding my expensive new ball.  Pretty clever, eh?

6.  Stop sending good looking young ladies in short skirt out in the beer cart.  Biggest time killer of all! 

[Hacker60521]

I generally like the idea of setting a pace of 14 min / hole. That would bring you in around a 4:15 round. So even with short breaks and such 4:30 is very reasonable. I wouldn’t mind having reminders along the way, or carts telling me my pace, etc. As long as it’s applied uniformly I’m good with it. 

 

I do have a question for the group. I also like the basic rule that if you’re more than a hole behind you’re playing too slow, and you’re out of position. But I’d like the groups thoughts on this situation. Foursome in front of you is about to tee off on a par 3. Your group is about to tee off on a par 4 just behind them. Would you consider this “out of position”?

[LinksgolfFever]

I Think that the idea of playing "at pace" is considered by some to mean you need to rush.... Unfortunately, the way people learn to play golf now, it seems that etiquette is not one of those learned behaviors anymore.  In general terms, I have never played a course that should have taken more than 4-4.5 hours.  I think that a four hour round should be the target.  Everyone in the group should be preparing to hit their next shot when the player that is up is hitting.  If that is done a sub 4 hour round walking is easily achievable.  Consider roughly 4-5 miles are walked during a round, a walking speed of 12 min/mile nets 48-60 minutes.  Assuming bogey golf in the group and an average of 30 seconds to complete your shot (since you've already gotten ready while others are hitting), that's 3 hours for four people to hit 360 shots.  One of my regular courses is Del Monte in Monterey CA (6400 Y 71.6/131). Walking playing the 1st tee time by myself a 2.5 hour round, in a group of 3 or 4 we play it between 3-3.5 hours.  No one is rushing, but everyone is paying attention.  Riding cuts 20-30 minutes off those round times.

Things I have seen/conditions played in to keep pace of play moving:

1. Expectations given in the pro-shop when checking in e.g. 4.5 hours to complete the round, let faster players/groups play through. Fix divots, fix ball marks on the green.

2. Early tee times (say before 10a) require the use of a caddy

3. Early tee times require a verified index of X

4. Marshals, like the starter who makes sure people are teeing off on time, marshals can do the same on the course.  

I think this all really goes back to etiquette and expectations.  If you want to take 5+ hours to play, go ahead and do that, but when faster players/groups are behind you, let them PLAY THROUGH.  

My 2 cents anyway....

[funkyjudge]

43 minutes ago, jasun28 said:

4-4:30 hr rounds should be the norm. I played a muni a few weeks ago. I walked off the course at 4:30 hrs in with 3 more holes to play. Absolutely ridiculous! If the course is busy max score for everyone should be double bogey. Triple bogey if you’re getting a stroke. That would speed up play. 

IMO, 4:30 is entirely too long for an 18-hole round of golf.

[funkyjudge]

40 minutes ago, Hacker60521 said:

I generally like the idea of setting a pace of 14 min / hole. That would bring you in around a 4:15 round. So even with short breaks and such 4:30 is very reasonable. I wouldn’t mind having reminders along the way, or carts telling me my pace, etc. As long as it’s applied uniformly I’m good with it. 

 

I do have a question for the group. I also like the basic rule that if you’re more than a hole behind you’re playing too slow, and you’re out of position. But I’d like the groups thoughts on this situation. Foursome in front of you is about to tee off on a par 3. Your group is about to tee off on a par 4 just behind them. Would you consider this “out of position”?

Yes, I would consider that that to be "out of position".

[sglj3]

I joined a club last fall. Several reasons were factors in the decision.

1. Pace of Play - I would say almost all courses are 4+ with some exceeding 5 hours. My club uses 8 minutes and only once have I taken more than 4 hours. It is usually 3-3.5

2. Getting a tee time on public courses in the area has become extremely difficult post COVID

[Burningbush]

I agree. I think it should be encouraged to let people play through if they’re not keeping pace. The main thing that holds groups up is when people spend forever searching for a ball. The problem is magnified when they spend so much time searching for a ball that once they find, they won’t have a good shot at all and end up compounding the problem. I understand if you’re searching for a ball in the fairway. I have lost balls that went 2 inches under ground on the fairway after a booming drive on soggy days, that hurts. But I think the main fix is to encourage people to let groups play through if they are going slow and have a good stock of balls and be willing to drop instead of wasting 10 minutes. 

[AlCzervik]

I received an email about this topic and have not read the whole thread, so forgive me if some of what I write is redundant.

To the OP, as some have mentioned, 4.5 hour rounds in the U.S. tends to be the norm. 

As far as pace issues, my thoughts are these:

• It can start with tee time spacing. A few courses even have two spots every 15 minutes (always about the money). This will always cause a logjam and later tee times will be delayed. Another poster mentioned that more difficult courses need more spacing and I agree. This is something the course should regularly monitor.
• Ranger/ marshal enforcement. This seems to be sorely lacking. When was the last time anyone saw or heard of a group being removed due to slow play? If those players get pissed and vow not to come back, the course needn't worry about them ever again!
• Players unaware of the etiquette that includes allowing others to play through.
• People searching for lost balls and fishing for ball in lakes every hole. Ugh!

Finally, some have needless routines. People watch the pros and emulate them, sometimes doing things like plumb-bobbing or using aimpoint when they haven't a clue what they're doing. Or, taking fifteen practice swings because, well, that's how Tiger did it.

[Marty2shanks]

4 hours ago, TriciaPug said:

 

This.... 

Time intervals can make a big difference. 

I experienced this at a course that goes out at 10 minute intervals and thought it was quite pleasant be cause we didn't have to wait at all for the crew in front of us.

It wasn't until I got back to my home course where they go out at 8 minute intervals that I realized just how bit the difference 2 minutes can make. 

 

Still better than a holiday powder day liftline at Vail…am I right?  

P.S.  Solomon QST 92…just saying…

[arctictenor]

I haven't seen this suggestion, yet: reward faster players with reduced green fees and early tee times. This would set a faster pace and many folks would like to save both money & time.

I hate slow play and may times have endured 5 hour plus rounds due to slow groups. I do not have a membership anywhere. But I will not return to a slow a course. In fact, I usually will book an afternoon time in the summer because fewer people will be out in the heat. I like to play by myself and can easily play a full round in 3 hours.

Edited Monday at 08:03 PM by arctictenor
Forgot to include idea for faster play.

[Philpug]

13 minutes ago, Marty2shanks said:

Still better than a holiday powder day liftline at Vail…am I right?  

P.S.  Solomon QST 92…just saying…

If you were skiing a FIS SL, your pace would be a lot faster  

 

[chisag]

21 minutes ago, AlCzervik said:

To the OP, as some have mentioned, 4.5 hour rounds in the U.S. tends to be the norm. 

 

... I just don't think anyone can make blanket statements like this as there are too many variables. I live in Phoenix and from November through April every course is packed. We play twilite at our excellent home muni course and with a city card can book 9 days in advance. When the window to book opens at Midnight if one of us doesn't book one of the first two and sometimes 3 twilite times in the first minute, we aren't gonna get a tee time. My point being everybody wants to play winter golf in Phoenix. We don't play weekends but several of us play 5 days in a row Mon-Fri and my best guess is 75% of our rounds are played in right around 4 hours. During winter it is rare to play in less than that but sometimes we play in just under 4 hours. The other 25% of the time it can be closer to 4.5 and maybe 10 rounds every winter we are closer to 5 hours but there is always a reason like an outing, a tournament in front of us or a couple groups just playing painfully slow. 

... Some of the other resort/semi private courses are packed with visitors and snowbirds and tend to have a longer pace of play. Makes sense as players that haven't swung a club in 4 months hop on the first tee and they are most likely going to struggle, at least for their first round, and soooooo many are playing their first round. But someone coming from snow and frigid temps don't mind a 5 hour round and are just happy to be in the sun. We avoid those courses til summer when the tee sheet can be wide open and the prices drop up to 80%.  So pace of play can vary quite a bit.  

[Marty2shanks]

6 minutes ago, Philpug said:

If you were skiing a FIS SL, your pace would be a lot faster  

 

True!!  

[Woodrow72]

I’m a strong believer that a round can be played in less than 4 hours if:

a starter who is a good communicator explains to each group the expectations .

play ready golf , be prepared to play when it’s time , keep up with the group ahead, looking for lost balls to a 2 minute limit , have a ranger who is positive and not over bearing , encouraging slower groups to pick up the pace , offer beverage discounts for those that play in under 4 hours . We usually play in under 4 , closer to 3 hours if there’s not a stack ahead . Encourage them to play tees that offer more forgiveness so they can enjoy .

About 40 years ago we were playing a resort in Tn. and the starter said , gentleman , there a turn time on your ticket on your bag , you will expected to turn within 10 minutes of that time or you will given a rain check and asked to leave ! Now that was  harsh but they got their pint across.

[Philpug]

14 minutes ago, Woodrow72 said:

About 40 years ago we were playing a resort in Tn. and the starter said , gentleman , there a turn time on your ticket on your bag , you will expected to turn within 10 minutes of that time or you will given a rain check kick in the ass and asked to leave ! Now that was  harsh but they got their pint across.

FIFY . If I got a raincheck at the turn, I would be playing slow 9's for ever. 

[Woodrow72]

15 minutes ago, Philpug said:

FIFY . If I got a raincheck at the turn, I would be playing slow 9's for ever. 

That place would probably make sure you never got a chance to use it

[Roof]

I agree with 4 1/2 hours when it’s busy, that’s just how it is. If the course pruned the bottom of the fir trees so they’re off the ground that may save a few minutes. Look for the bottle-neck areas and speak to clubhouse about it. If people complain ,they may look at some kind of re-design.

 

 

[Sea5159]

My 2 cents. 4:20 is a good number for most golfers. Of course I can play in 2 hours if I’ve got clean air and in cart but that’s a purple unicorn. My semi private home course is m-th 3:45-4:10  f-sun 4:10-4:40. My expectations are met almost always using this. Now from my observations it’s typically the (heavy)alcohol groups and the overly intense groups (the guys who think they are just a couple good rounds from being on some low tier tour) that can really ruin it for everyone behind them. The ones that really get me going are the ones that are really just there to socialize (kinda like the two guys that sit behind you at a hockey game and never shut up). So here is my possible solutions…

1) The course needs a Marshall on each side to stay on top of this s***. Fri-Sun just pay them with free golf. 
2) You are there to play golf not talk about your latest project or new girl/guy.  Course is for golf and the bar is for socializing. 
3) This is a big one… if the hole in front of you is open and the group behind you all have their hands on their hips then pick up and move to the next tee box. Do not let them thru this just slows it down more. 
4) If you show up to a course fri-sun with less than a foursome then you don’t get to complain about anything (find some friends or ask pro shop to pair you up). 

[I miss, I miss, I make]

Pace of play.  Either accept it as is or do something.  Spreading tee times to 10+ minutes helps but will not cure "the group in front holding up everything".  Player's Assistant (marshal)?  needs to have backing from the pro shop, but more importantly needs to be trained to inform, educate and as a last resort deliver the "ultimatum".  I think it is also important to have a visible, affordable lesson/education program for newer golfers.  The emphasis on visible.  I think new golfers can be intimidated because they do not know what or how.  The public course I play at has very visible signage advertising group lessons for beginners.  Swing and game basics for sure.  But etiquette, pace of play and care for the course are at least as important.

[Indyday42]

I’d like to see golf courses post a notice in a prominent location that says “USGA rules now allow the pin to be left in while putting. The rule change was made to speed up play. Some studies have shown an additional benefit: more putts made.”

https://golf.com/news/tournaments/dave-pelz-the-science-proves-you-should-leave-the-flagstick-in-when-you-putt-2/

[Hedgehog]

Biggest mistake is rough too long for club golfers, 

I have just moved club and now experiencing rough 2 foot high. 

We are not pros and dont have spotters so any loose shots takes time to look for, although we do the sensible thing of playing a provisional and just have to declare lost if not in comp.

Id be disappointed in a buggy to take more than 3hrs but walking 4 hours for 6600 yd course is our norm for a 4 ball.

[Rix]

16 hours ago, Skootgolfer1972 said:

Golf courses should give discounts money back or credits for finishing under certain timeframe. Under 4.5 hours get $10 discount or something and penalize if over 5 hours. There’s some options out there, but gotta make it worth doing or not doing and have to have good rangers out there to keep groups from holding up fast moving groups or let them play through. 

If you think there are a lot of videos of guys fighting on the golf course now, try giving credits for fast rounds. While the idea is good, the first time the group in front plays the last hole slowly and prevents the group waiting on them from getting a $10 credit all hell will break loose.

[Peejer]

Sounds like I'm in the minority here, but anything over 4 hours is wasteful.  It's ok to be bad, we've all been there, but it's not OK to be slow.  A foursome walking can get done in 4 hours, so why does it take a 4-some in a cart 4-1/2 and more?  COVID ruined golf.  There are a lot more people who play golf, but there's a big difference between them and golfers.

It's like a convention out there, they all go to the closest ball, watch them check distances, fumble with clubs, take 4+ practice swings and chunk and run.  Then the procession moves to the next ball.

My group has some basic etiquette.  We play ready golf, when your buddy is hitting, walk to your ball, get your distances, choose your club.  If you're in a cart, the rule is simple, if you're the last person to the cart - hang on to your club until we stop again.  You can clean the club, put the headcover on and put your club away while I'm getting ready to hit my shot.

It's hard to maintain continuity when you have to wait 5-10 minutes after you get to your ball on every hole.  I realize there can be some slow holes, if you lose a ball, or get stuck in a bunker - but waiting after every shot is maddening.

[Peejer]

3 hours ago, Sea5159 said:

My 2 cents. 4:20 is a good number for most golfers. Of course I can play in 2 hours if I’ve got clean air and in cart but that’s a purple unicorn. My semi private home course is m-th 3:45-4:10  f-sun 4:10-4:40. My expectations are met almost always using this. Now from my observations it’s typically the (heavy)alcohol groups and the overly intense groups (the guys who think they are just a couple good rounds from being on some low tier tour) that can really ruin it for everyone behind them. The ones that really get me going are the ones that are really just there to socialize (kinda like the two guys that sit behind you at a hockey game and never shut up). So here is my possible solutions…

1) The course needs a Marshall on each side to stay on top of this s***. Fri-Sun just pay them with free golf. 
2) You are there to play golf not talk about your latest project or new girl/guy.  Course is for golf and the bar is for socializing. 
3) This is a big one… if the hole in front of you is open and the group behind you all have their hands on their hips then pick up and move to the next tee box. Do not let them thru this just slows it down more. 
4) If you show up to a course fri-sun with less than a foursome then you don’t get to complain about anything (find some friends or ask pro shop to pair you up). 

5) If you're behind, the group following you is waiting - the cart girl is not allowed to stop and serve you.

[efitz5]

Here’s my own solution which is bound to upset some players. When you tee off your score card is stamped with the time. Charge each player $1 for every minute over 2 hours for the front and the same on the back. Bound to piss off a lot of players. In addition charge the individual player a buck for every divot not repaired and every ball mark not fixed. Although I have no idea how you would enforce that. 
Here’s something all clubs should require, pass a golf etiquette before stepping on a golf course. Let the hate begin. 
Btw, I play regularly with an 85 and a 92 year old gentleman. We play in under four hours. 

[nswillets_0817]

For all players, novice to seasoned player, with proper tee times at least 10 minutes apart, 4 hours should be the norm.  Novice players should pick up if they are already 2 over before reaching the green.  Otherwise they shouldn't be playing a full regulation course. Course marshals should be polite but firm in their requests for slower groups to pick up the pace and keep up with the group in front of them. It makes for a more fluid round for everyone and keeps players focused on their game and staying in rhythm. 

 

[Broke]

Make all the greens  funnel shape and nd put the hole in the middle

[Sea5159]

Maybe instead of charging a dollar for every minute over etc…make them go out 50 yds from driving range and run back and forth for the amount over 4:20 that they came in at…helmets optional!

[FmrCaddie13]

Maybe capital punishment? Anything less won't fix it. So far I've only seen one post on this thread where the poster kind of admits to playing slow. Since no one sees themselves as slow there are too many players not owning it.

Playing for 41 years now and it hasn't gotten better. If LIV brings a bunch of golf, but louder schmucks onto courses near you or me it will definitely get worse.

Our group plays in 3 hours. One guy's HDCP is pushing 30 and the rest of us are in the 7-10 range. 30 HDCP picks up at max strokes per hole. No chopping until it's in. We know where to park the carts at each green. We don't spend more than a minute searching for a lost ball but everone helps. When the last of us hit 50 we stopped playing from the tips. Didn't talk about it. First round of the year the oldest guy moved up to the next tee box and we all followed suit. We all survived with our manhood intact. If capital punishment were instituted a lot of players wouldn't. Sans that, slow play is here for good.

 

[Pep]

USGA has suggested for people to play up rather than back, ( yellow, red, white, blue black,ect.) Also if there is a hole open and the group in front is lagging they should skip ahead to next hole. Play ready golf. Maybe enforce no more than bogey or double bogey per hole. (Who wants to card a snowman anyway)

Rounds should not take more than 4 or so hours