Any shaft gurus out there?

[RickyBobby_PR]

On 12/16/2023 at 11:48 AM, Jim Shaw said:

"any shaft gurus out there" what a great question..

In my golf world the shaft is the only reason I go to a fitting, period. 

The challenge is I have still to this day never walked out of a fitting, on to the 1st. tee with the perfectly fit shaft for me, it always takes 2-3 weeks for me to groove my swing to "match" the shaft, always and I am not an average golfer. 

The last fitting I had the fitter was dragging employees out of their office to see the consistency of my strikes and absolute same swing speed with my clubs so in my mind it should be easy peasy to fit me with the proper shaft immediately. 

Nope, not a chance..

The reason for the rant about shafts is all the "hocus pocus tidily ocus" that seems to be generated about shafts had not made it's way down to my swing and in my mind it should. 

In summary I had Takomo put KBS stiff lights into the 301MB's, worked with them for 3 weeks and am striping them now, so the fitting for the majority of golfers may work but why not for me when it should be easy. 

I hope the information on this thread helps for all of you looking for the proper shaft for your swings...

Having to adjust to a shaft defeats the purpose of the fitting. The shaft should have worked or not worked for you in the fitting. Feel, balance and results should have been a known commodity upon completion of the fitting and decision to buy.

To the bolded part it’s get back to what I have said on multiple occasions shafts don’t spin or launch what it comes down to is how the weight and fee work for the person swinging them. If the feel doesn’t change a persons delivery there will be no change in performance. Also that some people are more sensitive than others to changes. Those who aren’t as sensitive will have a hard time finding any difference between shafts.

18 hours ago, Jim Shaw said:

You have basically made my point “why can’t the fitter say, this is the shaft for you, no question “ 

if the fitter cant  do that, what is the point?? I am doing his or her work for them. 
 

anyway I am fine now but in my mind it should be an easy fitting for the professional 

Because a fitter can feel what you are feeling. He/she can say here is what I see from the numbers, here’s what I see in you swing with shaft x, shaft y, shaft z, etc. here’s what I see in ball flight between them if there is any difference or not. It’s on the golfer to tell the fitter what they feel, what they are thinking, what they like or don’t like.

If the golfer isn’t doing that the fitter is handcuffed.

 

16 hours ago, Jim Shaw said:

Sorry @cnosil, I may not have been clear enough in my original post, I am struggling with the process of fitting for me. I was hoping the fitter would say “this is definitely the shaft for you “ but that didn’t happen. And I thought it would. 
it took me about 2 weeks to feel confortable with my new shafts but they are good now, 

Again the fitter isn’t going to say this is the best, worst or whatever, especially if the golfer isn’t giving any feedback. Fittings require an exchange of information between the fitter and golfer. What the fitter is seeing, the golfer saying what he/she is seeing, feeling, likes or doesn’t like about the shaft, the ball flight and so on. If this isn’t occurring from the golfer then the golfer is doing themselves a disservice and not helping the fitter. If the fitter isn’t doing it then you have a bad fitter.

 

[chisag]

15 hours ago, cnosil said:

I was hoping the fitter would say “this is definitely the shaft for you “ but that didn’t happen.

I personally don't think that will ever happen in a fitting.

 

... As a hopeless shaft ho that never met a shaft I didn't wanna hit, I do think it is possible and have had exactly that happen several times. Although in fairness there are always 2-3 shafts that perform very, very similar and the fitter depends on my feedback to pick the perfect shaft. In the most comprehensive fitting I have done, and surprisingly not a Top Tier Fitter but just a Callaway Demo day, I spent a full hour going through every shaft even remotely in my wheelhouse. I was his last fitting of the day and swinging very consistently that day (like everyone I have had fittings that were a waste of time because my tempo was off that day) so he wanted to experiment with me. With a smooth tempo and transition he wanted to see how different shafts outside the ideal would affect me and my swing. 

... At around 95mph he had me go through shafts never hitting more than 2 or 3 shots and he would either discard the shaft or put it in the "maybe" stack. After going through maybe 25 shafts some a little stiffer tipped for softer tipped than ideal just to see how it would affect my swing, we went back through the maybe stack which had about 10 shafts and started narrowing them down. If a shaft gave me the kind of numbers and performance we were looking for but felt a little stout or a little soft, he discarded it. A good example is the Graphite Design IZ vs the HD as both have a FIRM butt and a FIRM+ tip. The middle is just slightly different with the IZ a MEDIUM and the HD a FIRM middle section. I should hit the HD a little lower but because it "felt" a little stouter to me, I subconsciously tried to swing a little faster to get the feel I like resulting in releasing the shaft a little earlier and producing a higher trajectory with more spin, the opposite of what it "should" do. 

... What was interesting to him although I already knew this, is I fit right in the middle of the bell curve so a mid everything shaft works best for my swing. In the end we narrowed it down 3 shafts that he basically said "are all perfect for you". He added after watching me warm up and then hit a few tee shots felt the IZ and RCH would be in the final group. I will also say he was the best fitter I have ever experienced. So I was not surprised at all that the AD-IZ was in the group or the Tense Blue but a little surprised by the RCH55. I could play any of them and be completely dialed in. I already had a Tensei Blue so good there and I wasn't interested in putting a Callaway RCH in a Taylor Made head even if I could find one but this was the 3rd fitting where the IZ came out on top so I bought one and have been very pleased with the performance. 

... In the end the fitter has to let you control the fitting while gently guiding you through the process. You should never get tired of answering "How did that feel?" A less skilled fitter could have easily had me hit several more shots with the AD-HD because on paper it should have fit me perfectly. But this fitter saw me change my tempo slightly and as you stated he was fitting a shaft to my swing not fitting my swing to a shaft. 

... Lastly I will add in another fitting a Ventus Red Velocore5 came out as the top performer and tied with the IZ5. I didn't find much difference between the IZ6 and IZ5 but hit the Red5 better than the Red6 that just felt too stout for me in previous fittings. I do think if you go into a fitting with a positive attitude and expect it to be fun your chances of hearing "“this is definitely the shaft for you" is much higher. Of course everyone does not have great feel or any feel at all so they are gonna be very dependent on the fitters expertise and what the numbers tell them.   

Edited December 17, 2023 by chisag

[Mike10487]

After 2 more rounds with the RDX Smoke Blue I have found it to be better than I expected. The faster I swing the straighter it goes. I lost 2 balls right all weekend and they were just awful swings in horrible weather (40mph winds and rain). I am much more confident (getting used to it) with the driver. 

 

So. What I have learned from this thread and my personal experience is as follows. Not all club fitters are equal, the kid at Dick's sporting goods is not the same as the guy from Club Champion. It's mind numbing the variances in even one shaft line much less 80. Puring a shaft is still a preference (TXG YouTube video) (I believe more important on irons). There is still a period of "getting used to a shaft" that is fit for you. A good fitting is more important than ever. And finally... From scratch to a 25 handicap, we all want the same thing. Better scores and a long ball in the fairway! 

[Clubs by Buzz]

I know there are a lot of experts who spend $100s on shafts.   The true shaft guru, according to many a Titleist rep is John Slaughter.  John taught me and so far most golfers are thrilled that we can help them.   

Of course a $500 shaft has much tighter specs.   But to the average golfer, my target audience, setting up a $50 shaft correctly helps.   

This subject is Rocket Science.   NASA reps worked with John.   Trying to replicate his feel. They couldn't.  For us we feel the shaft. Touch it.   Flex it. 

Fitters get you real close.  Sometimes the shaft just needs a little love. 

IMHO, your shaft is more important than the head.   The right shaft, cut to your length and installed in the optimum position decreases dispersion.  Who cares about 10 yards longer when you are playing military golf.   Left/right/left.

Bogey golfers score better from the short grass. 

Cheers. 

 

 

 

If your shaft is installed in the wrong position you end up fighting the shaft. Spining or "truing" a shaft is the most important step.   If the spine is not properly aligned your dispersion will not be tight.   Stock shafts seem to be hit or miss in alignment.   

Please remember, some kid at PGA store or Dick's may not understand shaft setup.  

Buzz at Clubs by Buzz

 

 

 

[Mike10487]

9 hours ago, Clubs by Buzz said:

I know there are a lot of experts who spend $100s on shafts.   The true shaft guru, according to many a Titleist rep is John Slaughter.  John taught me and so far most golfers are thrilled that we can help them.   

Of course a $500 shaft has much tighter specs.   But to the average golfer, my target audience, setting up a $50 shaft correctly helps.   

This subject is Rocket Science.   NASA reps worked with John.   Trying to replicate his feel. They couldn't.  For us we feel the shaft. Touch it.   Flex it. 

Fitters get you real close.  Sometimes the shaft just needs a little love. 

IMHO, your shaft is more important than the head.   The right shaft, cut to your length and installed in the optimum position decreases dispersion.  Who cares about 10 yards longer when you are playing military golf.   Left/right/left.

Bogey golfers score better from the short grass. 

Cheers. 

 

 

 

If your shaft is installed in the wrong position you end up fighting the shaft. Spining or "truing" a shaft is the most important step.   If the spine is not properly aligned your dispersion will not be tight.   Stock shafts seem to be hit or miss in alignment.   

Please remember, some kid at PGA store or Dick's may not understand shaft setup.  

Buzz at Clubs by Buzz

 

 

 

So, more expensive shafts mitigate the need for splining, truing or puring?  In my opinion this is more important on irons, thoughts?

Edited December 19, 2023 by Mike10487

[Clubs by Buzz]

Manufacturers spend most of their money on the club head.   A stock Ventus is not even close to a Velocore, $500 shaft. It's tough to spend that much when you play maybe once per week. 

My irons were built with Graffaloy ProLaunch Red shafts. They are great iron shafts.  

Adjustable clubs make it impossible to position unless you know where you want your settings.  I have 3 shafts set up differently for my SIM2.

When buying a shaft, research what was hot 2 to 3 years ago.   Then buy an uncut shaft for pennies on the dollar. What was $350 in 2020 may now be $75.  Just be careful you are getting a real after market shaft.   I see $100 Ventus stock shafts for sale all the time.   Not worth $50 when compared to a 4 year old Aldilla Tour shaft. 

Golf is hard enough for us average hackers.  When affordable take advantage of technology. 

Cheers!

[RickyBobby_PR]

56 minutes ago, Clubs by Buzz said:

Manufacturers spend most of their money on the club head.   A stock Ventus is not even close to a Velocore, $500 shaft. It's tough to spend that much when you play maybe once per week. 

My irons were built with Graffaloy ProLaunch Red shafts. They are great iron shafts.  

Adjustable clubs make it impossible to position unless you know where you want your settings.  I have 3 shafts set up differently for my SIM2.

When buying a shaft, research what was hot 2 to 3 years ago.   Then buy an uncut shaft for pennies on the dollar. What was $350 in 2020 may now be $75.  Just be careful you are getting a real after market shaft.   I see $100 Ventus stock shafts for sale all the time.   Not worth $50 when compared to a 4 year old Aldilla Tour shaft. 

Golf is hard enough for us average hackers.  When affordable take advantage of technology. 

Cheers!

Well the ventus isn’t a $500 shaft at retail and is $250 upcharge for most manufactures. 
 

For the bolded part depends on the golfer. Lots of golfers fit into the made for ventus shaft and get better results than pretty much every aftermarket shaft. There are plenty of people that could play a tensei av blue over the real deal ventus blue.

[JohnSmalls]

13 hours ago, Clubs by Buzz said:

IMHO, your shaft is more important than the head. 

I know this is your opinion, not trying to change your mind; but for the sake of the readers I disagree. 

I believe that clubhead is more important to fit first.  Fitting for a clubhead is to make large or sweeping changes--- big changes in launch/spin(full degrees/hundreds of RPM), start angle (neutral, left or right), ball speed, etc.  After the proper launch conditions are met with clubhead, shaft changes then fine tune for consistency.

For example:  A 10.5* head will spin off the planet for me.  There is no stick of rebar that will bring spin down enough for me to keep a drive from ballooning; turning the head down OR using a lower degree head will make a suitable and fitting difference.  Shaft changes then to make the driver perfect.

Edited December 19, 2023 by JohnSmalls

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, JohnSmalls said:

I know this is your opinion, not trying to change your mind; but for the sake of the readers I disagree. 

I believe that clubhead is more important to fit first.  Fitting for a clubhead is to make large or sweeping changes--- big changes in launch/spin(full degrees/hundreds of RPM), start angle (neutral, left or right), ball speed, etc.  After the proper launch conditions are met with clubhead, shaft changes then fine tune for consistency.

For example:  A 10.5* head will spin off the planet for me.  There is no stick of rebar that will bring spin down enough for me to keep a drive from ballooning; turning the head down OR using a lower degree head will make a suitable and fitting difference.  Shaft changes then to make the driver perfect.

Many experts agree with you, by many I mean most. TXG, all the OEMs, Wishon and others. Wishon has an article that goes into shaft myths and shows how the shaft really isn’t that important.

Head and loft to get in the right launch window, then tweak to get contact point correct then tweak more with then shaft for fine tuning 

[Clubs by Buzz]

We can all agree on somethings. But not all things.   My clients don't have tons of money.   

Checking bags today at #1 tee, most golfers are playing older heads.   Truth be told, most manufacturers have made limited improvements over the last 20 years for the average golfer.   Yes, new heads will get you a few more yards if you have a good swing.   But not significant versus the cost. 

A Ping G3 was way ahead of the competition.   In a non scientific test, an older G3 club head with an improved shaft performed close to new clubs with stock shafts. This was done with golfers who carry 2 to 5 index. 

If you have the money to spend then buy new stuff.   

Question... why do some pros play the same fairway woods and irons for years?   Because the new tech doesn't always work for them.   They can play the best stuff. But choose to keep old reliables in the bag. 

My goal is to build clubs that work for golfers on a budget.  Clubs they can hit for years.  

Marketing by manufacturers is hard to ignore.  Do we really believe the annual hype? I don't and help those that don't. 

From Plugged In Golf..

https://pluggedingolf.com/what-to-expect-from-new-golf-clubs/

"Unfortunately, those smart people also designed the last generation of clubs and the one before that.  There is simply limited room to improve within the rules, budgets, and tastes of golf consumers.  When an OEM does find a 3% improvement, that is a big deal, but you still may not see a major change on the course."

Play fast. Cheers. 

[Mike10487]

To chime in here, I had the head figured out. But by finding the right shaft, it unlocked nearly 15 yds and tighter dispersion. Unlike the chicken and the egg dilemma, the head is always first, which causes the problem of needing to find the proper shaft to transform the "OK, I can make this work" To "WOW I can do anything with this and it's LONG". Most common golfers have a manufacturer that they like and stick with. Titleist junkies will nearly always gravitate to Titleist products and Callaway junkies will stay with Callaway. Most of the time the new heads feel similar with the exception of the Callaway Epic and it's predecessor. So, I lean to the shaft side of this conversation just due to simply upgrading a driver, you already kinda know where you should be with loft and settings. The shaft unlocks the potential of the head.

[Clubs by Buzz]

“The reality is that [the stock shaft] is engineered to a price point and is seldom up to any given company’s aftermarket standard. It might be good… just not good enough.” – MyGolfSpy

Torally agree! 

[Hoyoymac]

Whatever the combination of Shaft, grip and head that creates the system defined by the total of static weight, balance point, swing weight, Center of Gravity Location and shaft bend profile that allows you the golfer to make your individual swing with all its good and bad qualities deliver the best results consistently is the best fit.

A fitting is just a snapshot of maybe a few dozen swings on a particular day.

The reality is you just don’t know what is going to work until you try it.  Preferably on multiple courses over multiple days and in different conditions.

That is why I believe a 30-90 day playability guarantee is probably worth quite a bit to a golfer when buying new equipment.

Once you find a club that really performs well for you and you have confidence in it I would be very reluctant to change anything about it.  Even changing to a different brand or size of grip can change the balance point and swing weight.

However if there is a club in your bag that you are reluctant to hit even when the situation calls for it because you’ve lost confidence in it you should replace it.

I frequently buy and sell golf equipment and components because I like to build clubs and tinker.  

Sometimes my friends will ask me to buy one of my clubs or shafts that didn’t fit me as well as I hoped.  Whenever they ask to buy something I will tell them not to be in a hurry.  Try it over several weeks and multiple rounds and if they still want to buy it, I’ll make them a good deal.  If it doesn’t work just give it back.

I can’t count how many of my friends and playing partners have clubs or shafts in their bag that should have worked for me but didn’t.

My goal for 2024 is to have 14 clubs in my bag that I have complete confidence in.  I feel that I’m very close and hope to figure out the rest soon. 

 

[Jim Shaw]

11 minutes ago, Hoyoymac said:

Whatever the combination of Shaft, grip and head that creates the system defined by the total of static weight, balance point, swing weight, Center of Gravity Location and shaft bend profile that allows you the golfer to make your individual swing with all its good and bad qualities deliver the best results consistently is the best fit.

A fitting is just a snapshot of maybe a few dozen swings on a particular day.

The reality is you just don’t know what is going to work until you try it.  Preferably on multiple courses over multiple days and in different conditions.

That is why I believe a 30-90 day playability guarantee is probably worth quite a bit to a golfer when buying new equipment.

Once you find a club that really performs well for you and you have confidence in it I would be very reluctant to change anything about it.  Even changing to a different brand or size of grip can change the balance point and swing weight.

However if there is a club in your bag that you are reluctant to hit even when the situation calls for it because you’ve lost confidence in it you should replace it.

I frequently buy and sell golf equipment and components because I like to build clubs and tinker.  

Sometimes my friends will ask me to buy one of my clubs or shafts that didn’t fit me as well as I hoped.  Whenever they ask to buy something I will tell them not to be in a hurry.  Try it over several weeks and multiple rounds and if they still want to buy it, I’ll make them a good deal.  If it doesn’t work just give it back.

I can’t count how many of my friends and playing partners have clubs or shafts in their bag that should have worked for me but didn’t.

My goal for 2024 is to have 14 clubs in my bag that I have complete confidence in.  I feel that I’m very close and hope to figure out the rest soon. 

 

what a great post, i believe you are bang on with your assessment... 

[Mike10487]

"My goal for 2024 is to have 14 clubs in my bag that I have complete confidence in.  I feel that I’m very close and hope to figure out the rest soon. " 

 

You're asking for the holy grail! I'm sure you will find it. I believe I just did the same. I added a Srixon ZX MkII 2 iron to replace a hybrid that had a mind of its own. 

 

[Jim Shaw]

4 hours ago, machbrown2 said:

Hello I am also looking for guidance over selection of shaft and how to hit long posts

check out @Hoyoymacpost, it makes sense to me 

[Mike10487]

On 1/10/2024 at 6:48 AM, machbrown2 said:

Hello I am also looking for guidance over selection of shaft and how to hit long posts

Read over the thread. Some very valuable information has been posted.

[SpartyMatt]

On 1/2/2024 at 8:46 AM, Hoyoymac said:

Whatever the combination of Shaft, grip and head that creates the system defined by the total of static weight, balance point, swing weight, Center of Gravity Location and shaft bend profile that allows you the golfer to make your individual swing with all its good and bad qualities deliver the best results consistently is the best fit.

A fitting is just a snapshot of maybe a few dozen swings on a particular day.

The reality is you just don’t know what is going to work until you try it.  Preferably on multiple courses over multiple days and in different conditions.

That is why I believe a 30-90 day playability guarantee is probably worth quite a bit to a golfer when buying new equipment.

Once you find a club that really performs well for you and you have confidence in it I would be very reluctant to change anything about it.  Even changing to a different brand or size of grip can change the balance point and swing weight.

However if there is a club in your bag that you are reluctant to hit even when the situation calls for it because you’ve lost confidence in it you should replace it.

I frequently buy and sell golf equipment and components because I like to build clubs and tinker.  

Sometimes my friends will ask me to buy one of my clubs or shafts that didn’t fit me as well as I hoped.  Whenever they ask to buy something I will tell them not to be in a hurry.  Try it over several weeks and multiple rounds and if they still want to buy it, I’ll make them a good deal.  If it doesn’t work just give it back.

I can’t count how many of my friends and playing partners have clubs or shafts in their bag that should have worked for me but didn’t.

My goal for 2024 is to have 14 clubs in my bag that I have complete confidence in.  I feel that I’m very close and hope to figure out the rest soon. 

 

Hi Hoyoumac, random one for you.   I was recently fitted into a very light Mitsubishi Vanquish PL shaft through a Callaway 30 minute fitting.  4R very light at 44.5 grams .  I've had a long wait for the club and getting cold feet about such a light weight shaft.  My driver swing speed is 87mph.  My ball speed and carry were my best ever but I did not see dispersion we were moving too fast.  Felt very smooth.  Should I be concerned about this shaft weight with my swing speed?

[Hoyoymac]

1 hour ago, SpartyMatt said:

Hi Hoyoumac, random one for you.   I was recently fitted into a very light Mitsubishi Vanquish PL shaft through a Callaway 30 minute fitting.  4R very light at 44.5 grams .  I've had a long wait for the club and getting cold feet about such a light weight shaft.  My driver swing speed is 87mph.  My ball speed and carry were my best ever but I did not see dispersion we were moving too fast.  Felt very smooth.  Should I be concerned about this shaft weight with my swing speed?

With your swing speed that shaft sounds like a good fit.  I would trust the fitter on that.

[Mike10487]

Checking back in with an update. The HXRDUS Blue RDX is still providing me with the same results and is still in the bag. For shi*t and giggles, I tried the Black RDX again since I feel my swing speed has increased a little bit more. The dispersion difference was extremely noticeable. I'll trust the Blue RDX.  

[Mike10487]

On 1/10/2024 at 8:17 AM, Mike10487 said:

"My goal for 2024 is to have 14 clubs in my bag that I have complete confidence in.  I feel that I’m very close and hope to figure out the rest soon. " 

 

You're asking for the holy grail! I'm sure you will find it. I believe I just did the same. I added a Srixon ZX MkII 2 iron to replace a hybrid that had a mind of its own. 

 

The Srixon 2i is still in the bag and is amazing as well!