DataGolf vs. OWGR??

[KingSlender]

2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The OWGR gave LIV the criteria for how to get points.

The OWGR isn’t going to say okay this 1 or 2 events on your tour get points but the rest don’t. That would be like saying that only certain events on the PGA tour get points and other don’t.

The Hero is a non PGA tour sanctioned event so they had to apply just like LIV did.

The LIV golfers like Niemann who left after all the decisions were made knew what they were getting into. They are having to lie in the bed they made. 
 

The ones who left in the beginning were either naive and too trusting of Norman and him saying they won’t be suspended or they just didn’t care. They played chicken with the tour and basically lost. 
 

 

 

The thing nobody has really reported on is that the OWGR actually changed their mission statement AFTER LIV was announced.  I grabbed a couple screenshots from archive.org below.  Prior to LIV being announced, their stated mission was:

"The Governing Board and its Technical Committee have continuously monitored and refined the system over the years taking into account the ever changing structure of world golf and suggestions made from players and Tours alike."

 

Once LIV was announced, they redid their website in 2022 and changed it to:

 

"The mission of the OWGR is to administer and publish, on a weekly basis, a transparent, credible, and accurate Ranking based on the relative performances of players participating in male Eligible Golf Tours worldwide."

 

It's really egregious that they basically went from a body whose mission was to adapt to golf and rank players accordingly to a body who says "we're a closed system - adapt or you're out." 

 

Prior to 2022

 

Updated in 2022

Edited March 7 by KingSlender

[DaveP043]

On 3/6/2024 at 12:20 PM, Mr_BogeyPro said:

LIV can still keep the 14 or so tournaments (maybe include a form of a major) and keep the format of shotgun starts, music, shorts, et cetera, but a 4-day event would help the cause.

LIV would still have issues with the small fields and little or no way to earn a spot on their tour.  Its one thing to be in the top 10 of the same 56 players, its a different thing to compare those 56 players to the rest of the golfing universe.  Kind of a "big fish in a small pond" thing.

21 hours ago, skeough20 said:

I think LIV should get World ranking points but at 35-40% of the PGA Tour. Some of the tours that do get World ranking points are only 3 rounds, not 4. The name is The WORLD ranking points. The object is to identify the best golfers in The world. At this moment, it doesn't. That's The bottom line. You have Rahm, Koepka, DJ, Niewmann, Taylor Gooch, Louie O, Cam Smith, Reed and a few others that were always within the top 50 or at max the top 100. Now some of them are in The 200s and lower. 

Gooch has spoken out, but its hard to put him in the top 50 when he's missed the cut in about 1/3 of his tournaments, and finished 34-cut-cut in his last 3 majors.

I wouldn't have a problem with LIV getting ranking points, but I think 40% is generous.  The field sizes and 54 hole format are negatives, and some of those 56 players are pretty bad.  LIV "purchased" players to make publicity waves, and not all of them are particularly good.  But even if LIV did get some reduced ranking points, the players  (and particularly Norman) would continue to complain, anything short of full PGA Tour points wouldn't satisfy them.

[BringerofRain]

46 minutes ago, KingSlender said:

 

The thing nobody has really reported on is that the OWGR actually changed their mission statement AFTER LIV was announced.  I grabbed a couple screenshots from archive.org below.  Prior to LIV being announced, their stated mission was:

"The Governing Board and its Technical Committee have continuously monitored and refined the system over the years taking into account the ever changing structure of world golf and suggestions made from players and Tours alike."

 

Once LIV was announced, they redid their website in 2022 and changed it to:

 

"The mission of the OWGR is to administer and publish, on a weekly basis, a transparent, credible, and accurate Ranking based on the relative performances of players participating in male Eligible Golf Tours worldwide."

 

It's really egregious that they basically went from a body whose mission was to adapt to golf and rank players accordingly to a body who says "we're a closed system - adapt or you're out." 

 

Prior to 2022

 

Updated in 2022

I did not know this but it is a good piece of information. I am on the side the world ranking system is currently inaccurate especially if you consider what really matters Vegas Odds. I do think it was a smart play for LIV to give up the chase of world ranking points and go directly to the major tournaments and figure out how to get an exemption or get a special  invite. It’s possible they can simply get their tour winners an automatic invite. Then no one will give two farts about the OWGR. 
 

The US open allows for special invites so while I’m not sure who will automatically qualify from LIV it will be interesting to see if anyone gets invited. 
 

[DaveP043]

10 minutes ago, BringerofRain said:

I did not know this but it is a good piece of information. I am on the side the world ranking system is currently inaccurate especially if you consider what really matters Vegas Odds. I do think it was a smart play for LIV to give up the chase of world ranking points and go directly to the major tournaments and figure out how to get an exemption or get a special  invite. It’s possible they can simply get their tour winners an automatic invite. Then no one will give two farts about the OWGR. 
 

The US open allows for special invites so while I’m not sure who will automatically qualify from LIV it will be interesting to see if anyone gets invited. 
 

LIV giving up allows them to continue to whine, and to avoid getting significantly reduced points due to their format, field size and strength, lack of access for new players, etc.  

The two Opens allow for anyone to qualify if they can perform well in the qualifiers.  If a player qualifies, and performs well in that opportunity, they'll get an exemption for one or more future years.   But the "stars" on the LIV tour would have to swallow their pride and compete alongside regular joes in those qualifiers, and run the risk of being shown to be less than stellar.

[KingSlender]

7 minutes ago, BringerofRain said:

I did not know this but it is a good piece of information. I am on the side the world ranking system is currently inaccurate especially if you consider what really matters Vegas Odds. I do think it was a smart play for LIV to give up the chase of world ranking points and go directly to the major tournaments and figure out how to get an exemption or get a special  invite. It’s possible they can simply get their tour winners an automatic invite. Then no one will give two farts about the OWGR. 
 

The US open allows for special invites so while I’m not sure who will automatically qualify from LIV it will be interesting to see if anyone gets invited. 
 

 

I think they are better off going for getting one of them to accept TUGR or Data Golf rankings.  They need a way to get guys in who are performing well who may not win.

[KingSlender]

2 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

LIV giving up allows them to continue to whine, and to avoid getting significantly reduced points due to their format, field size and strength, lack of access for new players, etc.  

The two Opens allow for anyone to qualify if they can perform well in the qualifiers.  If a player qualifies, and performs well in that opportunity, they'll get an exemption for one or more future years.   But the "stars" on the LIV tour would have to swallow their pride and compete alongside regular joes in those qualifiers, and run the risk of being shown to be less than stellar.

Many who aren't exempt will do this - Sergio tried last year. The idea that LIV fields, which has 1/2 of the last 26 major winners, aren't strong fields, is laughable.  Sure, there are guys like Westwood and Poulter that they need to figure out a way to exit from the league, but the PGA has it's share of trunk slammers in the field every week as well.

[Preeway]

1 hour ago, KingSlender said:

 

The thing nobody has really reported on is that the OWGR actually changed their mission statement AFTER LIV was announced.  I grabbed a couple screenshots from archive.org below.  Prior to LIV being announced, their stated mission was:

"The Governing Board and its Technical Committee have continuously monitored and refined the system over the years taking into account the ever changing structure of world golf and suggestions made from players and Tours alike."

 

Once LIV was announced, they redid their website in 2022 and changed it to:

 

"The mission of the OWGR is to administer and publish, on a weekly basis, a transparent, credible, and accurate Ranking based on the relative performances of players participating in male Eligible Golf Tours worldwide."

 

It's really egregious that they basically went from a body whose mission was to adapt to golf and rank players accordingly to a body who says "we're a closed system - adapt or you're out." 

 

Prior to 2022

 

Updated in 2022

I wasn’t aware of the change but if you step back and look at the broader context of how LIV came to be, I don’t think the change is that egregious. There were a handful of smaller tours in other parts of the world that didn’t qualify but also weren’t really trying that hard to either. Then LIV comes along with an open admission that their goal is to break up golf as we know it and challenge the status quo with how professional golf is played. LIV knew coming out of the gate they weren’t going to qualify based on their set up and didn’t care. All of this does need to get worked out but for me, I don’t see the blame falling more on OWGR. 

[KingSlender]

4 minutes ago, Preeway said:

I wasn’t aware of the change but if you step back and look at the broader context of how LIV came to be, I don’t think the change is that egregious. There were a handful of smaller tours in other parts of the world that didn’t qualify but also weren’t really trying that hard to either. Then LIV comes along with an open admission that their goal is to break up golf as we know it and challenge the status quo with how professional golf is played. LIV knew coming out of the gate they weren’t going to qualify based on their set up and didn’t care. All of this does need to get worked out but for me, I don’t see the blame falling more on OWGR. 

 

Do you know how the current PGA Tour started?  With Jack and Arnie basically leading the charge to form a new league:

Quote

With an increase of revenue in the late 1960s due to expanded television coverage, a dispute arose between the touring professionals and the PGA of America on how to distribute the windfall. The tour players wanted larger purses, where the PGA desired the money to go to the general fund to help grow the game at the local level. Following the final major in July 1968 at the PGA Championship, several leading tour pros voiced their dissatisfaction with the venue and the abundance of club pros in the field.The increased friction resulted in a new entity in August, what would eventually become the PGA Tour. Tournament players formed their own organization, American Professional Golfers, Inc. (APG), independent of the PGA of America. Its headquarters were in New York City.

 

Not 100% analogous to LIV, but sound familiar?  

More money is coming into the sport.  With the increased value of media the last 10 years, the Tour still will not let players monetize their own shots - this was a bone of contention for Phil.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, BringerofRain said:

I did not know this but it is a good piece of information. I am on the side the world ranking system is currently inaccurate especially if you consider what really matters Vegas Odds. I do think it was a smart play for LIV to give up the chase of world ranking points and go directly to the major tournaments and figure out how to get an exemption or get a special  invite. It’s possible they can simply get their tour winners an automatic invite. Then no one will give two farts about the OWGR. 
 

The US open allows for special invites so while I’m not sure who will automatically qualify from LIV it will be interesting to see if anyone gets invited. 
 

How is LIV the tour going to get exemptions into majors?

The players individually will have a hard time as well me will have to find ways to get qualified. The Open just changed their rules for exemptions from some smaller tours so now LIV members will have to find a say to play their committed tournaments on LIV and to pay on Asian tour and other tour events to earn ranking status on those tours. So there goes the get more to play less

[BringerofRain]

 

How is LIV the tour going to get exemptions into majors?

The players individually will have a hard time as well me will have to find ways to get qualified. The Open just changed their rules for exemptions from some smaller tours so now LIV members will have to find a say to play their committed tournaments on LIV and to pay on Asian tour and other tour events to earn ranking status on those tours. So there goes the get more to play less

If it was me and I was running LIV I would ask the major to allow the top 3 teams to get automatically qualified and all tournament winners from the previous year into the majors. This would make the their team aspect way more intriguing. 

As for how, the majors are all run independently of the PGA tour so if LIV can work out a deal that’s how they could get automatic qualifications or LIV exemptions. 

I am sure LIV will try this by throwing a bunch of money at the majors and it just might work. 

I am also not sure how Nieman got an invite to the PGA Championship but he has proven it is possible. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

8 minutes ago, BringerofRain said:

If it was me and I was running LIV I would ask the major to allow the top 3 teams to get automatically qualified and all tournament winners from the previous year into the majors. This would make the their team aspect way more intriguing. 

As for how, the majors are all run independently of the PGA tour so if LIV can work out a deal that’s how they could get automatic qualifications or LIV exemptions. 

I am sure LIV will try this by throwing a bunch of money at the majors and it just might work. 

I am also not sure how Nieman got an invite to the PGA Championship but he has proven it is possible. 

So what gets changed for the rest of the exemptions that free up 12 spots in the majors for liv? And what if the guys on those teams aren’t as good as others who are qualified or exempted already. 
 

 

[Preeway]

51 minutes ago, KingSlender said:

 

Do you know how the current PGA Tour started?  With Jack and Arnie basically leading the charge to form a new league:

 

Not 100% analogous to LIV, but sound familiar?  

More money is coming into the sport.  With the increased value of media the last 10 years, the Tour still will not let players monetize their own shots - this was a bone of contention for Phil.  

Not 100% analogous but still similar. I agree the PGAT could have, and should have done more to benefit the players financially but Phil was looking to bring the lions share of the money to only a handful of top ranked players and leave crumbs for everyone else. Looking at how the LIV teams and captains are set up, look familiar? Phil was out for Phil and the Tour balked because they wanted the Tour to be about more than just the few. Granted, there was more to it than just this but, it isn’t as simple as a slight increase in revenue from TV. 

[BringerofRain]

28 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

So what gets changed for the rest of the exemptions that free up 12 spots in the majors for liv? And what if the guys on those teams aren’t as good as others who are qualified or exempted already. 
 

 

I am far from an expert in golf Major exemption but why not just add 12 players to the field. I’m sure for every new exception / new  automatic qualifier they found a way to add those players. For example the Olympic winner and the Asian tour have not always been in existence and they found ways to let them participate. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

57 minutes ago, BringerofRain said:

I am far from an expert in golf Major exemption but why not just add 12 players to the field. I’m sure for every new exception / new  automatic qualifier they found a way to add those players. For example the Olympic winner and the Asian tour have not always been in existence and they found ways to let them participate. 

Because fields are already maxed out except for the Masters.

The masters has the room to open spots up which is what they did for the Olympics and they have been inviting foreign players who aren’t qualified which is what Niemann got for this masters.

The Open has updated their criteria for smaller tours but it’s not adding 4 3 some to the field.

Team standings/rankings isn’t a great option for an individual sport.

Most of the guys on LIV outside a few are either at the end of their better days or weren’t doing all that well on the PGA tour or in majors that they did get in. Other than name popularity they don’t have much going for them. And the ratings for LIV is a clear indication of that. 

[skeough20]

4 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

LIV would still have issues with the small fields and little or no way to earn a spot on their tour.  Its one thing to be in the top 10 of the same 56 players, its a different thing to compare those 56 players to the rest of the golfing universe.  Kind of a "big fish in a small pond" thing.

Gooch has spoken out, but its hard to put him in the top 50 when he's missed the cut in about 1/3 of his tournaments, and finished 34-cut-cut in his last 3 majors.

I wouldn't have a problem with LIV getting ranking points, but I think 40% is generous.  The field sizes and 54 hole format are negatives, and some of those 56 players are pretty bad.  LIV "purchased" players to make publicity waves, and not all of them are particularly good.  But even if LIV did get some reduced ranking points, the players  (and particularly Norman) would continue to complain, anything short of full PGA Tour points wouldn't satisfy them.

I think The starting point is 75% seeing they play 3 rounds rather than 4. Then points get reduced for a closed field and the no cut. They are already inconsistencies in the rankings now. The biggest one is Tiger's tournament that is a 20 man invitational with no cut gets full points. I know it took that tournament a number of years before they were awarded points but that precedent has already been set and if a 20 man invitational gets full points, I don't think it's a stretch for LIV to get partial points. The other one is a PGA tour event that only plays 3 rounds. I know that most times that happens there has been a cut but sometimes they isn't. If you are going to give points for some tournaments that are run by The PGA Tour, then tournaments that LIV play should also get points. 

[skeough20]

3 hours ago, KingSlender said:

Many who aren't exempt will do this - Sergio tried last year. The idea that LIV fields, which has 1/2 of the last 26 major winners, aren't strong fields, is laughable.  Sure, there are guys like Westwood and Poulter that they need to figure out a way to exit from the league, but the PGA has it's share of trunk slammers in the field every week as well.

That's hard to believe that 1/2 of the major winners in The last 6 1/2 years play on The LIV tour. That's crazy but it's a fact.

[BringerofRain]

10 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Because fields are already maxed out except for the Masters.

The masters has the room to open spots up which is what they did for the Olympics and they have been inviting foreign players who aren’t qualified which is what Niemann got for this masters.

The Open has updated their criteria for smaller tours but it’s not adding 4 3 some to the field.

Team standings/rankings isn’t a great option for an individual sport.

Most of the guys on LIV outside a few are either at the end of their better days or weren’t doing all that well on the PGA tour or in majors that they did get in. Other than name popularity they don’t have much going for them. And the ratings for LIV is a clear indication of that. 

W hy not just do the top 5 individual players. Doesn't need to be the top 3 teams. I was just saying if I controlled LIV that’s what I would be asking for.

I just dont see the harm of LIV bypassing the OWGR all together and getting their tour automatic qualifiers regardless of how Many players automatically would qualify. 

I also do not see a negative for the majors to add these players who they would deem worthy separate from the OWGR to add the players they want. 

Finally plus cannot speak to the fields being maxed out I have no idea how many golfers a course could fit. I assume it’s due to sunlight but I would think there could be away around it. 

Let’s start playing some PrimeTime night golf  or everyone can park there cars  on the fairway and greens like legend of bagger Vance  

 

[skeough20]

9 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The OWGR is ranking those who play in tournaments that fall under the OWGR system. That’s all they have to rank.

DJ chose to play on a tour that doesn’t have ranking points as did all the rest who are complaining especially the recent jumpers who knew what the situation was.

They have to sleep in the bed they made and can’t have their cake and eat it too.

The OWGR told LIV what they had to do to get approval and LIV said no thanks. Putting the blame anywhere but on LIV and their decision to not accept the OWGR and the players especially the recent ones to sign knowing they were going to lose points is putting the blame in the wrong place. It’s squarely on everyone at LIV from the top down 

So basically, they are ranking the whole of the golfing world and they are the Overall World ranking points? They are not doing what their name implies. They do not rank The whole world, do they? IF you honestly believe that DJ is # 247 in The world and there are 246 better golfers in The world, fine. I find it hard to believe that anyone who knows golf would say DJ is the 247th best golfer in The world which is what the World ranking is supposed to do. The system is broken IF their mandate is to rank The best golfers in The World because they definitely aren't doing that. The rules of golf are updated every 4 years but the World ranking points can't work out to to include some of the best golfer sin The world. Tiger's 20 man invitational tournament gets full world ranking points. There is no criteria fro that tournament other than Tiger invites you. SO they can do it if they wish. They don't wish to do it. That's my issue. Explain to me how a 20 man invitational tournament get points, no other criteria other than Tiger invites you. He does try to get The best field but again no  criteria but LIV doesn't? Sorry makes no sense to me. 

[KingSlender]

12 minutes ago, skeough20 said:

So basically, they are ranking the whole of the golfing world and they are the Overall World ranking points? They are not doing what their name implies. They do not rank The whole world, do they? IF you honestly believe that DJ is # 247 in The world and there are 246 better golfers in The world, fine. I find it hard to believe that anyone who knows golf would say DJ is the 247th best golfer in The world which is what the World ranking is supposed to do. The system is broken IF their mandate is to rank The best golfers in The World because they definitely aren't doing that. The rules of golf are updated every 4 years but the World ranking points can't work out to to include some of the best golfer sin The world. Tiger's 20 man invitational tournament gets full world ranking points. There is no criteria fro that tournament other than Tiger invites you. SO they can do it if they wish. They don't wish to do it. That's my issue. Explain to me how a 20 man invitational tournament get points, no other criteria other than Tiger invites you. He does try to get The best field but again no  criteria but LIV doesn't? Sorry makes no sense to me. 

Wait until Charlie gets OWGR points next year when Tiger invites him to play

The problem with golf, above all other sports, is that everyone loves to have their own little fifedom.  They could easily just adopt a more modern metric like Data Golf or TUGR, but to do that you'd have to get all the OWGR founding members - PGA of America, the PGA Tour, The Masters, The R&A, European Tour, and PGA Tour - to admit that they haven't maintained the latest and greatest ranking system.

Yet they will gladly used Strokes Gained during broadcasts.  

The best metric is the one that can rank players regardless of when and where they play.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

35 minutes ago, skeough20 said:

So basically, they are ranking the whole of the golfing world and they are the Overall World ranking points?

They are ranking players who play on events on tours that are part of the OWGR and not ranking players who play in events or tours that aren’t. It’s really pretty simple. There are 20 some tours that have applied and were accepted into the OWGR. LIV applied and were denied but were giving info on what to change, they chose not to change and to do what they want. Its LIVs fault their members aren’t gaining points. 
 

I don’t know what DJs ranking is or what it would be had he stayed on the PGA tour. Tigers ranking dropped when he was hurt and wasn’t playing. Its a simple process, points are applied over a 2 rolling two year period and the less you the play the further you drop.

.

35 minutes ago, skeough20 said:

The system is broken IF their mandate is to rank The best golfers in The World because they definitely aren't doing that.

The system isn’t broken, they rank those that fall under their purview, plain and simple. The players knew the consequence of leaving and still left, it’s on them for their current rankings and whatever opportunities they miss out on.

They aren’t ranking every tour in the world or every event. They set criteria to gain points under their system, LIV doesn’t meet it. 
 

35 minutes ago, skeough20 said:

The rules of golf are updated every 4 years but the World ranking points can't work out to to include some of the best golfer sin The world. Tiger's 20 man invitational tournament gets full world ranking points. There is no criteria fro that tournament other than Tiger invites you. SO they can do it if they wish.

And if LIV woulD have agreed to the changes proposed by the OWGR their events would be getting points. Again very simple. Do A,B C and you get points, don’t do one or all and you don’t.

You don’t change the system for one organization. It’s not equal treatment for the others that are following the rules. If you became a member of a club you agree to their rules and not to say I’m going to do things my way and I want the same privileges.

Tiger had to meet whatever criteria they set forth which I’m guessing part of it was there has to be some way for the field to change and under performers to not be invited. One of the issues with LIV is there isn’t there 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, BringerofRain said:

W hy not just do the top 5 individual players. Doesn't need to be the top 3 teams. I was just saying if I controlled LIV that’s what I would be asking for.

I just dont see the harm of LIV bypassing the OWGR all together and getting their tour automatic qualifiers regardless of how Many players automatically would qualify. 

I also do not see a negative for the majors to add these players who they would deem worthy separate from the OWGR to add the players they want. 

Finally plus cannot speak to the fields being maxed out I have no idea how many golfers a course could fit. I assume it’s due to sunlight but I would think there could be away around it. 

Let’s start playing some PrimeTime night golf  or everyone can park there cars  on the fairway and greens like legend of bagger Vance  

 

The harm of LIv bypassing all the stuff the rest of the tours has to do is unfair to everyone playing by the rules and it sets a bad example.

The negative for the majors is they would be telling the rest of the the field that even though they followed the rules and did what they were supposed to do we are going to give the following players an invite because of who they are. It’s another bad precedent.

irs not about how many a course can fit, it’s what is feasible for the tournament. The US Open is 156 which is the same as a regular tour event. Adding additional golfers isn’t possible from a time perspective on a Thursday and Friday.

Everything happening to LIV members is the fault of Greg Norman, the LIV leadership and the members. Norman lied to the players. LIV leadership decided to play by their own rules and not accept the terms the OWGR provided them. Had they done that all the players on LIV would be warming points and some of them would probably have enough to qualify for the majors. And lastly it’s on the players for choosing money over a tour where they were warming points.

The system doesn’t have to change because a bunch of pros who chose money are whining about their choices and the consequences 

[BringerofRain]

33 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The harm of LIv bypassing all the stuff the rest of the tours has to do is unfair to everyone playing by the rules and it sets a bad example.

The negative for the majors is they would be telling the rest of the the field that even though they followed the rules and did what they were supposed to do we are going to give the following players an invite because of who they are. It’s another bad precedent.

irs not about how many a course can fit, it’s what is feasible for the tournament. The US Open is 156 which is the same as a regular tour event. Adding additional golfers isn’t possible from a time perspective on a Thursday and Friday.

Everything happening to LIV members is the fault of Greg Norman, the LIV leadership and the members. Norman lied to the players. LIV leadership decided to play by their own rules and not accept the terms the OWGR provided them. Had they done that all the players on LIV would be warming points and some of them would probably have enough to qualify for the majors. And lastly it’s on the players for choosing money over a tour where they were warming points.

The system doesn’t have to change because a bunch of pros who chose money are whining about their choices and the consequences 

My suggestion has nothing to do with the OWGR or whether Greg Norman lied. It has to do with LIV changing their path and working with the four  majors to find an alternative path in. 

I also do not agree with the statement following the rules. Yes LIV did not follow the rules of OWGR but the way to get in the majors is not exclusively through OWGR. BIG IF but if they can convince the majors winners from their events should auto qualify I think let them in  

Sports are constantly upgrading and changing their formats. Look to most  major sports in the United States they have had significant changes in the last few years. NFL, MLB and NBA have added playoff teams  FIFA has added more teams eligible for the World Cup. 

I see LIV as the second most competitive tour in the world and by a pretty wide margin. If they can find an alternative path to the majors that has nothing to do with world ranking points why not. If they are not taking any spots away from any other tours then what is the harm.

I see it as a good precedent to set by being amendable and having a willingness to change.  Finding more pathways into majors shouldn’t be punished it should be celebrated. 

Finally and most importantly, I have enjoyed hearing @RickyBobby_PR different viewpoints. You have been nothing but respectful and polite and this is what makes the MGS forum and members among the best. 

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, BringerofRain said:

My suggestion has nothing to do with the OWGR or whether Greg Norman lied. It has to do with LIV changing their path and working with the four  majors to find an alternative path in. 

Your suggestion has flaws because it sets a bad precedent and/or extends and always full field.

1 hour ago, BringerofRain said:

I also do not agree with the statement following the rules. Yes LIV did not follow the rules of OWGR but the way to get in the majors is not exclusively through OWGR. BIG IF but if they can convince the majors winners from their events should auto qualify I think let them in

You are correct and the majors have already set their criteria, including The Open changing them for the Asian tour and some others to take players from there. So the LIV members have another route by leading the tour rankings on this tours so they are already adjusting for their fields while not making exceptions for LIV tour.

Not sure what the bolded part means but the past major winner have exemptions into the majors already for a certain period of time, not sure when some of them run out but it will be at least 5 years for the most recent ones and previous Masters winners are exempt for life or until they are to old to play, so if you are saying the major winners should get in that’s already happening and to date none of the majors have banned LIV members and doesn’t appear they will.

1 hour ago, BringerofRain said:

I see LIV as the second most competitive tour in the world and by a pretty wide margin. If they can find an alternative path to the majors that has nothing to do with world ranking points why not. If they are not taking any spots away from any other tours then what is the harm.

LIV is an exhibition tour with the same limited field. Most of their members are near the end of their careers or were not winning much on the PGA tour or DP world Tour.

They have alternate paths to the majors. Qualify thru the open qualifier events for both The Open and U.S. Open, get an invite to the masters like Niemann did or find a way to earn a spot in the PGA Championship. Each major has its qualifying methods a listed, if you are interested you can go look them up to see, they aren’t that extensive 

1 hour ago, BringerofRain said:

see it as a good precedent to set by being amendable and having a willingness to change.  Finding more pathways into majors shouldn’t be punished it should be celebrated

The Majors are changing but they arent just giving out freebies to a tour that is playing team golf and just putting on an exhibition each week that despite the big names nobody is watching.

1 hour ago, BringerofRain said:

Finally and most importantly, I have enjoyed hearing @RickyBobby_PR different viewpoints. You have been nothing but respectful and polite and this is what makes the MGS forum and members among the best. 

Thanks and so have you.

[Headhammer]

I just heard an interview with Matt Fitzpatrick who is a staunch supporter of PGA, and very vocal about LIV, say it's clear looking at "ALL" the tours, the list does not accurately reflect the best players in the world right now!

[Preeway]

1 hour ago, Headhammer said:

I just heard an interview with Matt Fitzpatrick who is a staunch supporter of PGA, and very vocal about LIV, say it's clear looking at "ALL" the tours, the list does not accurately reflect the best players in the world right now!

True. It doesn’t reflect how good the players on LIV. But it isn’t the job of the OWGR to make sure LIV players are actually ranked. @RickyBobby_PR lays it out very clear as to why things are the way they are.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

7 minutes ago, Preeway said:

True. It doesn’t reflect how good the players on LIV. But it isn’t the job of the OWGR to make sure LIV players are actually ranked. @RickyBobby_PR lays it out very clear as to why things are the way they are.  

Exactly. This could all go away very easily. LIV adopts what the OWGR told them they needed to change to get approved. The problem is LIV doesn’t want to change and them pulling their request is proof they don’t care.

Golf will be ok if the LIV players aren’t in events. CBS reported an increase in ratings last year. Nobody is watching LIV so despite how good their members are the golfing woods didn’t care to watch them play. The ones who have exemptions to the majors will still be there. If Niemann, Gooch and some others who had a few moments on tour aren’t there nothing is lost 

[hoppman]

2 hours ago, Headhammer said:

I just heard an interview with Matt Fitzpatrick who is a staunch supporter of PGA, and very vocal about LIV, say it's clear looking at "ALL" the tours, the list does not accurately reflect the best players in the world right now!

I think some of these guys are in CYA mode just in case they decide to join Liv at some point. If they stink on the PGA tour, they can run to liv and take the money. At some point Liv will probably want to dump Wolff and will be looking for another replacement. 

[Hook DeLoft]

I've never cared about the OWGR.  Where a player is ranked makes no difference to me.  I do recognize that it is a huge factor in the game because it is one of the ways a player get invitations to majors and other big tournaments.  But, as a fan, I just don't care.

[fixyurdivot]

On 3/7/2024 at 3:13 PM, skeough20 said:

So basically, they are ranking the whole of the golfing world and they are the Overall World ranking points? They are not doing what their name implies. They do not rank The whole world, do they? IF you honestly believe that DJ is # 247 in The world and there are 246 better golfers in The world, fine. I find it hard to believe that anyone who knows golf would say DJ is the 247th best golfer in The world which is what the World ranking is supposed to do. The system is broken IF their mandate is to rank The best golfers in The World because they definitely aren't doing that. The rules of golf are updated every 4 years but the World ranking points can't work out to to include some of the best golfer sin The world. Tiger's 20 man invitational tournament gets full world ranking points. There is no criteria fro that tournament other than Tiger invites you. SO they can do it if they wish. They don't wish to do it. That's my issue. Explain to me how a 20 man invitational tournament get points, no other criteria other than Tiger invites you. He does try to get The best field but again no  criteria but LIV doesn't? Sorry makes no sense to me. 

I think that is exactly what Matt Fitzpatrick was referring to in his comments about why the OWGR system is not a system that reflects reality.  In no universe not involving massive use of narcotics is DJ #247 .

[Preeway]

Nobody believes DJ is the #247 ranked player. Everyone knows why his ranking is skewed.