New course strategy change tees?

[E. H. Taylor]

I'm trying to figure out if I can play at a "higher level" by teeing it up further back. I am an 11, Arccos shows I drive 271 average, 5i 180, PW 125. I've gotten comfortable in the last year playing combination tees that measure 6,200 because that's the commonly played tees at the course and in my group.

I'm considering moving back to 6,600 tees permanently (the next are 7,100) but I'm hesitant due to widespread OB and my 1.5 penalty strokes per round off the box. There's OB both sides on every hole, it's not tight, although with my length I mishit one OB 2 out of 3 rounds. 

I'm forced to lay up on 3 holes because driving would bring water significantly into play with driver and even 3 wood. It was dry for my last round and I smoked a 5i 230 right up to a water hazard. There's another 2 holes that I am thinking of hitting hybrids or irons instead of Driver/3W just due to my landing spots being in tight areas.

I think It may be hurting me more by teeing off with such short clubs and that I may be forced into lame risk/reward decisions.

 

Here's my strategy question:

Would moving back 400 yards or even 900 yards result in a difference in handicap to make up for scoring ability?

 

Obviously no one will know for sure, but what do you all think? I'd like to get to single digits this year and hope switching tees may help just a little.

[Dweed]

Wow, I can only dream of an issue like that.  Play a couple of practice rounds and see how it feels. Hard to judge where the added distance on which holes make the most sense. Especially with OB on the sides for many holes.

[MissionMan]

Do you want to learn or do you want to drop your handicap?

Moving back will drop your handicap. What I mean by this is that if you hit the ball a decent distance, you should be able to play further back and still score well so your handicap will drop. What you really want to do is move forward if you want to learn. I think it was Bryson who said he was told to play off the front tees to teach him how to birdie holes. because you're playing off a lower handicap, you have to make more birdies and play better so playing the forward tees isn't necessarily easier. 

[cnosil]

2 hours ago, MissionMan said:

you have to make more birdies and play better so playing the forward tees isn't necessarily easier. 

Not necessarily true.   birdie count between scratch and 20 handicappers isn’t much.    @E. H. Taylor indicates he has 1.5 penalties per round off the tee.   He also seems to think he should move back so he can hit longer clubs off the tee which I am guessing would mean hitting to the same areas he is trying to hit now.   
 

I think a lack of good course management is probably a big reason he isn’t single digit.  moving back a tee box might help since the slope/index rating will be slightly More difficult.  

 

[MissionMan]

25 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Not necessarily true.   birdie count between scratch and 20 handicappers isn’t much.    @E. H. Taylor indicates he has 1.5 penalties per round off the tee.   He also seems to think he should move back so he can hit longer clubs off the tee which I am guessing would mean hitting to the same areas he is trying to hit now.   
 

I think a lack of good course management is probably a big reason he isn’t single digit.  moving back a tee box might help since the slope/index rating will be slightly More difficult.  

 

That’s playing off the same tee’s. Watch the average scratch player off the front tees and that changes substantially because now they’re playing off a plus 4. You have to chase birdies, but you also have to chase them on the right holes. 

When you move forward, you lose 2-4 strokes depending on the course. If you’re a 7 handicap, you’re suddenly a 3 or 4. That is good and bad, because you’re in a position where bogies punish you, and double bogies are a nightmare. Yes, course management is one of the problems, but you are also in a position where you may have to play slightly more aggressively on some holes because that’s the expectation of a handicap 3-4 lower. You actually start having to chase birdies on par 5’s, even if they are stroke 1 or 2 because you need to buy yourself shots for other holes.

I’ll give you some examples: In our case as an example, we have a dogs leg over out of bounds. I play it straight because it’s about 275 carry off the blues. Some of the bigger hitters at our course take it on. I’m not big enough, carry and run I’m 285. Off the reds, it’s 230 carry over the corner and I can leave myself a 8-9 iron into the green on a par 5. A 9 iron onto the green gives me a guaranteed birdie and a potential eagle. If it’s a driveable par 4, then it’s often worth the risk because being on the fringe gives me an up and down. Hence the idea of chasing more birdies and learning how to score low. Once you go back to the back tees, you often continue your low streak.

Support by numerous articles btw.

https://www.australiangolfdigest.com.au/the-surprising-reason-you-should-be-playing-more-from-forward-tees/

https://golf.com/instruction/five-reasons-try-forward-tee-box/

Edited June 17 by MissionMan

[Hacker60521]

@E. H. Taylor if your goal is to lower your handicap, I think playing at a “higher level“ means having a consistent game throughout your bag, and avoiding blow ups. If you’re tracking strokes with an App, you can get a sense of where you can focus on strokes gained. For example, I know I’m not a long driver (235-ish), but my dispersion is 10-15 yards. But where I lose strokes is on approach shots over 125-ish. 

[E. H. Taylor]

3 hours ago, MissionMan said:

Do you want to learn or do you want to drop your handicap?

Moving back will drop your handicap. What I mean by this is that if you hit the ball a decent distance, you should be able to play further back and still score well so your handicap will drop. What you really want to do is move forward if you want to learn. I think it was Bryson who said he was told to play off the front tees to teach him how to birdie holes. because you're playing off a lower handicap, you have to make more birdies and play better so playing the forward tees isn't necessarily easier. 

That's a really good point, it made me really think about what you said. I think I would have to say in thinking about it, in the long run I'd rather of course just be better. 

 

13 hours ago, Dweed said:

Wow, I can only dream of an issue like that.  Play a couple of practice rounds and see how it feels. Hard to judge where the added distance on which holes make the most sense. Especially with OB on the sides for many holes.

I've played the further back tees 6-7 times on my own. It feels harder, obviously, but I haven't consistently played it enough to gauge how my scoring would average.

 

25 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Not necessarily true.   birdie count between scratch and 20 handicappers isn’t much.    @E. H. Taylor indicates he has 1.5 penalties per round off the tee.   He also seems to think he should move back so he can hit longer clubs off the tee which I am guessing would mean hitting to the same areas he is trying to hit now.   
 

I think a lack of good course management is probably a big reason he isn’t single digit.  moving back a tee box might help since the slope/index rating will be slightly More difficult.  

 

I agree there's some course management strategy mixed in. I've been reading the Four Foundations of Golf, which is a strategy and stats based book using Arccos and ShotScope statistics. It's given me the mindset of taking more club, and being okay swinging within myself as opposed to swinging hard. 

 

In my last 20 rounds, I'm hitting .8 Birdies, 6.1 Pars, 6.7 Bogeys, and 4.4 Double or worse, 54% FIRs and 35% GIRs.

[cnosil]

24 minutes ago, MissionMan said:

That’s playing off the same tee’s. Watch the average scratch player off the front tees and that changes substantially because now they’re playing off a plus 4. You have to chase birdies, but you also have to chase them on the right holes. 

When you move forward, you lose 2-4 strokes depending on the course. If you’re a 7 handicap, you’re suddenly a 3 or 4. That is good and bad, because you’re in a position where bogies punish you, and double bogies are a nightmare. Yes, course management is one of the problems, but you are also in a position where you may have to play slightly more aggressively on some holes because that’s the expectation of a handicap 3-4 lower. You actually start having to chase birdies on par 5’s, even if they are stroke 1 or 2 because you need to buy yourself shots for other holes.

I’ll give you some examples: In our case as an example, we have a dogs leg over out of bounds. I play it straight because it’s about 275 carry off the blues. Some of the bigger hitters at our course take it on. I’m not big enough, carry and run I’m 285. Off the reds, it’s 230 carry over the corner and I can leave myself a 8-9 iron into the green on a par 5. A 9 iron onto the green gives me a guaranteed birdie and a potential eagle. If it’s a driveable par 4, then it’s often worth the risk because being on the fringe gives me an up and down. Hence the idea of chasing more birdies and learning how to score low. Once you go back to the back tees, you often continue your low streak.

Support by numerous articles btw.

https://www.australiangolfdigest.com.au/the-surprising-reason-you-should-be-playing-more-from-forward-tees/

https://golf.com/instruction/five-reasons-try-forward-tee-box/

I still disagree that it is about birdies,  My read of the articles and even stated in one of them:  And this is the key for players like me who think the path to a single-digit handicap is about making more birdies. In fact, it’s more about making fewer boneheaded mistakes.   I believe you were more accurate in your statements when you said it is about avoiding double bogies.   

I read those articles and feel my answer is still correct,  it is about course management.   You could play up, make 0 birdies and be a scratch handicap.   The thought behind the more birdies is getting more mentally prepared for having a lower score,  improving short game, and making better decisions.     

[cnosil]

3 minutes ago, E. H. Taylor said:

I agree there's some course management strategy mixed in. I've been reading the Four Foundations of Golf, which is a strategy and stats based book using Arccos and ShotScope statistics. It's given me the mindset of taking more club, and being okay swinging within myself as opposed to swinging hard. 

 

Sounds like you are missing the point that while you want to advance the ball as far a possible you want to avoid penalties or areas that bring penalties into play.  

[RetiredBoomer]

5 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I still disagree that it is about birdies,  My read of the articles and even stated in one of them:  And this is the key for players like me who think the path to a single-digit handicap is about making more birdies. In fact, it’s more about making fewer boneheaded mistakes.   I believe you were more accurate in your statements when you said it is about avoiding double bogies.   

 

It's never happened, but even if I shot a 90 with eighteen straight bogies, I'd be muttering to myself....

but it would still be a round without a double, and even in that case,'
a round without a double is nevertheless an accomplishment for a recreational player.

Normally, a round without a double gives me a very  good shot at breaking 80.

 

 

[E. H. Taylor]

10 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Sounds like you are missing the point that while you want to advance the ball as far a possible you want to avoid penalties or areas that bring penalties into play.  

I'm struggling to remove errant drives from my game, there's no doubt. Where I am landing the ball on a few holes is sometimes 50 yards past the widest part of the hole where things tighten up and contributes. If I don't decide to switch, I'm committing to pull driver less. I've noticed that some of the guys who are single digits and hit my distance, hit driving irons on 2-4 holes that I do not. I have a 4 driving iron that I need to get better with for sure. 

Edited June 17 by E. H. Taylor
spelling

[Shapotomous]

15 minutes ago, E. H. Taylor said:

That's a really good point, it made me really think about what you said. I think I would have to say in thinking about it, in the long run I'd rather of course just be better. 

 

I've played the further back tees 6-7 times on my own. It feels harder, obviously, but I haven't consistently played it enough to gauge how my scoring would average.

 

I agree there's some course management strategy mixed in. I've been reading the Four Foundations of Golf, which is a strategy and stats based book using Arccos and ShotScope statistics. It's given me the mindset of taking more club, and being okay swinging within myself as opposed to swinging hard. 

 

In my last 20 rounds, I'm hitting .8 Birdies, 6.1 Pars, 6.7 Bogeys, and 4.4 Double or worse, 54% FIRs and 35% GIRs.

I think getting away from the 4.4 doubles or worse is where you should look to get to single digits  Are they course management doubles or bad shot doubles or penalty shot doubles?  Will moving back help get rid of those strokes?

Aside from the handicap impact  I think moving back helps  develop your game because you are playing different clubs and having to think a little differently than playing same course / same tees all the time.

[NM01]

23 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I still disagree that it is about birdies,  My read of the articles and even stated in one of them:  And this is the key for players like me who think the path to a single-digit handicap is about making more birdies. In fact, it’s more about making fewer boneheaded mistakes.   I believe you were more accurate in your statements when you said it is about avoiding double bogies.   

I read those articles and feel my answer is still correct,  it is about course management.   You could play up, make 0 birdies and be a scratch handicap.   The thought behind the more birdies is getting more mentally prepared for having a lower score,  improving short game, and making better decisions.     

Agree. It’s about reducing the number of strokes over par rather than trying to make more birdies or eagles. Par is a good score. Make more pars and less bogey or worse and the score goes down

21 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Sounds like you are missing the point that while you want to advance the ball as far a possible you want to avoid penalties or areas that bring penalties into play.  

Exactly. 

[MissionMan]

20 minutes ago, E. H. Taylor said:

I'm struggling to remove errant drives from my game, there's no doubt. Where I am landing the ball on a few holes is sometimes 50 yards past the widest part of the hole where things tighten up and contributes. If I don't decide to switch, I'm committing to pull driver less. I've noticed that some of the guys who are single digits and hit my distance, hit driving irons on 2-4 holes that I do not. I have a 4 driving iron that I need to get better with for sure. 

An iron is one option but it only gets you so far. You don’t want to avoid the driver because you’re scared of hitting it. An iron is normally a calculated hit to a club you want to hit, to avoid half clubs.

Do you a fairway finder? I can hit two drives. One that is absolutely smoked that hits the fairway maybe 60% and one that will hit the fairway 85% of the time. I tee the ball low, half the height and because you hit slightly down on it, you get a little more backspin but it loses about 20 yards, but it still incredible accurate. My pro taught me how to do it and it’s the been one of the most powerful things in my back. 

[E. H. Taylor]

8 minutes ago, Shapotomous said:

I think getting away from the 4.4 doubles or worse is where you should look to get to single digits  Are they course management doubles or bad shot doubles or penalty shot doubles?  Will moving back help get rid of those strokes?

Aside from the handicap impact  I think moving back helps  develop your game because you are playing different clubs and having to think a little differently than playing same course / same tees all the time.

I guess it's a little of all of the above. I have been hitting my long irons and 3H exceptionally well lately. I don't think moving back helps remove them but it may not make them occur more often, I'm not sure.

 

6 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Agree. It’s about reducing the number of strokes over par rather than trying to make more birdies or eagles. Par is a good score. Make more pars and less bogey or worse and the score goes down

Exactly. 

The part of the book related to advancing without bringing penalties into play has long been part of my strategy. From these current tees I can hit driver potentially over water and through necks into some birdie opportunities. Doing so is only for scrambles though as I am likely to hit double.

[E. H. Taylor]

3 minutes ago, MissionMan said:

An iron is one option but it only gets you so far. You don’t want to avoid the driver because you’re scared of hitting it. An iron is normally a calculated hit to a club you want to hit, to avoid half clubs.

Do you a fairway finder? I can hit two drives. One that is absolutely smoked that hits the fairway maybe 60% and one that will hit the fairway 85% of the time. I tee the ball low, half the height and because you hit slightly down on it, you get a little more backspin but it loses about 20 yards, but it still incredible accurate. My pro taught me how to do it and it’s the been one of the most powerful things in my back. 

I can hit what I call a "Baby Driver" reasonably accurate. I tee it normal and swing 80% resulting usually in a 5-10 yard faded 245 yard drive typically. When I take speed off my drives I hit more fairways and avoid penalties like anyone but with OB left and right on every hole I'd have to do it the whole round to eliminate OB. I swing away for 54% fairways and 271 yards.

 

Would 245 yards and say 75% fairways lower my score more than 1 penalty and 20 yards?

[MissionMan]

3 minutes ago, E. H. Taylor said:

I can hit what I call a "Baby Driver" reasonably accurate. I tee it normal and swing 80% resulting usually in a 5-10 yard faded 245 yard drive typically. When I take speed off my drives I hit more fairways and avoid penalties like anyone but with OB left and right on every hole I'd have to do it the whole round to eliminate OB. I swing away for 54% fairways and 271 yards.

 

Would 245 yards and say 75% fairways lower my score more than 1 penalty and 20 yards?

Fairways reduce double bogies, because an iron from the fairway is more likely to be on or around the greens. You’ve got a better line to the hole, more chance of holding the green with spin. The closer you get to the middle of the green for your second, the less chance of a double.

From there, the next thing is chipping and putting. I have a friend who has gone from a 14 to a 2 handicap in 12 months. His irons are the same, but his chipping is deadly. He’s up and down from anything inside 30 yards every time. It gives you the comfort of know you can take a long iron, aim for the green and if you miss it, you have a good chance of getting up and down. 

[PrismFlopper]

I tried playing off the red/ forward tees as a way of decreasing scores and I found for me personally the only difference it made was off the tee accuracy of fairway of the tee got better but score didn’t improve that much (we’re talking like 1-3 shot difference over a round) but that was mainly due to not using my driver as much if not at all. I worked on my driver more and that’s what helped me, but I tend to hit long anyway, I’m still hitting off whites again so not off the back tees so that could make a massive difference if I moved back. My accuracy from like 175 in is still pretty good so I’ve really had to focus on my off the tee choices cause that would be the biggest difference between dropping strokes from error drives or from having to take a longer iron for a second shot leaving me to get fancy with shorter chips or choking down/half shots. Example yesterday I needed to hit a 250 driver to give me 150 into the green which has been a soft driver for me since I average about 290+ but I ended up chipping the drive and left me 250 in which not meant really risky 3wood or taking 2 shots into the green. Of course I am dumb so I took the 3 wood and smacked into the hill in front of the green and now had a 12ft uphill and like 10 ft forward flop.

[NM01]

1 hour ago, E. H. Taylor said:

I can hit what I call a "Baby Driver" reasonably accurate. I tee it normal and swing 80% resulting usually in a 5-10 yard faded 245 yard drive typically. When I take speed off my drives I hit more fairways and avoid penalties like anyone but with OB left and right on every hole I'd have to do it the whole round to eliminate OB. I swing away for 54% fairways and 271 yards.

 

Would 245 yards and say 75% fairways lower my score more than 1 penalty and 20 yards?

Swinging away is part of the problem. If we look at pros most are giving up 5-15mph ball speed from what they are capable of because the want control. Now the guys who are sub 180 ball speed are probably not going 100% speed but closer to 95% compared to guys like Finau who hangs out at around 183 ball speed rather than his max at 200 ball speed. So maybe not going full out but dialing back to 85-90% will improve your dispersion. That should give you the chance to hit more greens which will give you the chance to make less putts and score better.

shot execution still needs to happen no matter what. But even if you only have 1.5 penalty strokes a round you are still getting too many bogeys and double bogeys so there’s probably other aspects of your game that needs work. Could be edge play, inside 125 approach shots.

[NM01]

1 hour ago, MissionMan said:

Fairways reduce double bogies, because an iron from the fairway is more likely to be on or around the greens. You’ve got a better line to the hole, more chance of holding the green with spin. The closer you get to the middle of the green for your second, the less chance of a double.

From there, the next thing is chipping and putting. I have a friend who has gone from a 14 to a 2 handicap in 12 months. His irons are the same, but his chipping is deadly. He’s up and down from anything inside 30 yards every time. It gives you the comfort of know you can take a long iron, aim for the green and if you miss it, you have a good chance of getting up and down. 

Not necessarily. The strokes gained scoring between more fairways hit for all handicaps isn’t that much. It’s less than 1 strokes gained.

https://golf.com/instruction/greens-in-regulation-vs-fairways-hit-lou-stagner/?amp=1

[E. H. Taylor]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Swinging away is part of the problem. If we look at pros most are giving up 5-15mph ball speed from what they are capable of because the want control. Now the guys who are sub 180 ball speed are probably not going 100% speed but closer to 95% compared to guys like Finau who hangs out at around 183 ball speed rather than his max at 200 ball speed. So maybe not going full out but dialing back to 85-90% will improve your dispersion. That should give you the chance to hit more greens which will give you the chance to make less putts and score better.

shot execution still needs to happen no matter what. But even if you only have 1.5 penalty strokes a round you are still getting too many bogeys and double bogeys so there’s probably other aspects of your game that needs work. Could be edge play, inside 125 approach shots.

I see how you'd think swing away means as hard, or nearly as hard, as possible. I'm comfortable at 108 mph but can full swing 110-115 mph all day so I feel like I'm at 95%. 108 mph feels natural and leads to 54% FIRs, at 110 mph I'd probably drop to 45% and 115mph around 15%. Based on what you said I feel like I might be doing about what you suggest, unless I understand what you're saying differently. I give up the same 7 mph as pros and hit the same 54% according to Arccos, albeit with 30 yards less distance and 1.5 penalty strokes off the tee per round.

 

One of my conundrums is if I go down to 260 yards (85-90%) and hit .5 penalty strokes per round, for example, is that worth it? I've seen some of the data on strokes gained, but someone should create a strokes gained strategy calculator.

 

Another for me to answer, is do I want to say I shoot 86 from the further back tees or 84 from closer?

[NM01]

1 hour ago, E. H. Taylor said:

I see how you'd think swing away means as hard, or nearly as hard, as possible. I'm comfortable at 108 mph but can full swing 110-115 mph all day so I feel like I'm at 95%. 108 mph feels natural and leads to 54% FIRs, at 110 mph I'd probably drop to 45% and 115mph around 15%. Based on what you said I feel like I might be doing about what you suggest, unless I understand what you're saying differently. I give up the same 7 mph as pros and hit the same 54% according to Arccos, albeit with 30 yards less distance and 1.5 penalty strokes off the tee per round.

 

One of my conundrums is if I go down to 260 yards (85-90%) and hit .5 penalty strokes per round, for example, is that worth it? I've seen some of the data on strokes gained, but someone should create a strokes gained strategy calculator.

 

Another for me to answer, is do I want to say I shoot 86 from the further back tees or 84 from closer?

Gotcha. Improving fairways hit isn’t a guarantee for better scores especially if going up another 20-30 yards. See the link I posted above. 
 

Your issue is too many big numbers for the balls that are in play. You are probably losing strokes with approach shots and around the green. You need to turn doubles into bogeys and bogeys into pars. 

What is your GIR percentage?

Whats your up/down percentage?

How many 3 putts a round do you have.

[goaliedad30]

6 hours ago, E. H. Taylor said:

In my last 20 rounds, I'm hitting .8 Birdies, 6.1 Pars, 6.7 Bogeys, and 4.4 Double or worse, 54% FIRs and 35% GIRs.

The fastest way to improve your score given those stats is to turn the 4 doubles into bogeys or better, and hit a few more greens. If you're hitting half the fairways but only a third of the greens, your approach game is where the improvement needs to come. 

I would also wager that a good chunk of the doubles come from either penalty strokes off the tee, or from "trying to save par" after a poor shot as opposed to "make no worse than bogey", from a course management perspective.

One great suggestion I got years ago was "when you're in trouble, be your own caddy". Have an actual internal dialog about options, where you can miss it, how to minimize the damage.

[Stuka44]

On 6/17/2024 at 9:23 AM, E. H. Taylor said:

 

In my last 20 rounds, I'm hitting .8 Birdies, 6.1 Pars, 6.7 Bogeys, and 4.4 Double or worse, 54% FIRs and 35% GIRs

I would agree with those who are indicating that bad doubles, and possible short game issues are most important to address.   My numbers are almost identical to you and I also at my age am comfortable playing 5900-6200 yards.  In my last couple rounds I can point to 4-5 bad doubles where from hole high just off the green in two I took doubles, one was two wasted dubbed chips 5 on a par 3, and the other was a skull across the green, terrible shot back onto the green two putt 6 on a par 4.  Also I had two occasions where I didn't lose a ball, but I essentially took a stroke   by having to punch out and around some trees, yes up by the green but now was further from the green, and much more difficult shot to get down in par.

I average 1.05 penalties a round, and I am hitting the ball about 230, maybe 245(50) with some roll.  All of this is to say, I believe for myself  if I was chasing single digit handicap actively, I would  be practicing chipping and pitching, to eliminate muffs, and increase accuracy, which will increase the possibility for one putts, (inside 6 feet), which will be further increased  by continued practice putting on 11 footers and under.   I'm really not sure what moving up or back would do for you, but I would caution to not let chasing a number, potentially interfere with the enjoyment of the game.  Just my take!

Edited June 28 by Stuka44

[NM01]

Interesting stats for shooting a 59.

GIR>fairways.

Make some putts