Groove or No-Groove Putter?

[fixyurdivot]

Just watched the Adam Beach/Guerin Rife video on putter designs/history and it got me wondering what the preferences are among the MGS community.  I've never played a putter having grooves.  Except for the offset, my Ping B61 is as plain as can be.  For those that have switched from groove-less, what did you find different?  Anyone know what the statistics (preferences) are among the various tours?

[GolfSpy_BNG]

My Nike Method Mod 60 putter has a milled face with grooves and a polymer insert behind the face.  It has been the best putter I have owned and gamed in forever.

[GB13]

10 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Just watched the Adam Beach/Guerin Rife video on putter designs/history and it got me wondering what the preferences are among the MGS community.  I've never played a putter having grooves.  Except for the offset, my Ping B61 is as plain as can be.  I've never had/used a putter with grooves.  For those that have switched from groove-less, what did you find different?  Anyone know what the statistics (preferences) are among the various tours?

I just went from a Odyssey White Hot #1 (insert with no grooves) to a Ping Sigma G B60 (milled True Roll insert). 

I can't honestly say that the grooves helped me a ton. It certainly wasn't a magic potion that made me a good putter. Does it help with consistent speed of the face? Probably but it might just be a placebo effect. I like the feel but I don't know that the face makes a difference in roll.  You still have to make a good stroke to get the right line and speed.

The main reason that I like the B60 better is that it is lighter. The lighter the better for me. If the WH#1 had fit me better, would the B60 have unseated it? I can't say. 

All that being said, the B60 is the best putter I have ever hit (yes, better than EVNroll, they are just too heavy for me). 

[PlaidJacket]

My Edel has a Pixel face insert. IMO it's purely a custom choice (that I made) as I don't think it lends itself to any significant improved feel or accuracy over grooves or no-grooves. I had several years ago a Ping Ketsch* putter with the grooves Ping incorrectly cut and thereby pulled it off the market. It kind of became an internet legend with some sort of magical powers to make putts. It wasn't illegal. Just a mfg. flaw so Ping pulled it I understand. I didn't putt good with it and later traded it.

Putting is a weird animal as many I think would agree. Some people are just better putters than others even when all other aspects of their game are solid - equal. I will admit - if I were in the market for a new putter my first choice to test would be an Evnroll ER2 or 3. I've seen the ER2 first hand and liked the way it felt-looked-played. Below is the face of my Edel Willamette.

 

[NiftyNiblick]

If it were I,  I'd wait until somebody finally designs a good putter before deciding which kind of striking surface is best.

I've got a huge old staff bag full of putters, and they're all pretty useless.

I considered going down on my belly and using a pool cue, but it was too hard getting up.

[fixyurdivot]

2 hours ago, PlaidJacket said:

My Edel has a Pixel face insert. IMO it's purely a custom choice (that I made) as I don't think it lends itself to any significant improved feel or accuracy over grooves or no-grooves. I had several years ago a Ping Ketsch* putter with the grooves Ping incorrectly cut and thereby pulled it off the market. It kind of became an internet legend with some sort of magical powers to make putts. It wasn't illegal. Just a mfg. flaw so Ping pulled it I understand. I didn't putt good with it and later traded it.

Putting is a weird animal as many I think would agree. Some people are just better putters than others even when all other aspects of their game are solid - equal. I will admit - if I were in the market for a new putter my first choice to test would be an Evnroll ER2 or 3. I've seen the ER2 first hand and liked the way it felt-looked-played. Below is the face of my Edel Willamette.

 

Wow, that's an interesting pattern I've not seen... snazzy!

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

Wow, that's an interesting pattern I've not seen... snazzy!

ping used to have a pixel insert similar to this as well. 

[cnosil]

My putter has the Tayormade pure roll insert.   In general grooves don't do a whole lot,  loft has more impact on the balls roll.   What the variable width/depth grooves from EvnRoll,  Ping, and Cleveland do is impact the ball speed off the face. 

[PING Apologist #9]

22 hours ago, GB13 said:

 

I can't honestly say that the grooves helped me a ton. It certainly wasn't a magic potion that made me a good putter. Does it help with consistent speed of the face? Probably but it might just be a placebo effect. I like the feel but I don't know that the face makes a difference in roll.  You still have to make a good stroke to get the right line and speed.

 

Ditto. My B60 is no magic wand either, but damn it feels nice and I love rolling with it

[fixyurdivot]

With both yourself and @GB13rolling the B60, I got to wondering what the differences are.  Based on what I've read thus far, not too much.  The B61 is reportedly a little more "bladed". I also ran across this little nugget of information about Ping Putters - MGS ceases to amaze me .

https://mygolfspy.com/classic-ping-collection-guide/

 

Update: Oh snap, based on the comments to Adam's article, it looks like the .pdf for the book had issues downloading.  

[PMookie]

Years ago, I had a Rife that had grooves, then at some point I bought the Ketsch, but neither really showed a greater consistency than anything else. I now go back-and-forth between and Edel with the pixelated face, and a SeeMore Si2 that has an insert and I putt much better with these. I even putt pretty well with the 1970s Ping Anser my Dad gave me when he stopped golfing late in life.


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[Shankster]

PING Anser 1966TR... full face grooves.  Definitely like the idea, the result, and the looks. Feels like it gets the ball hugging the ground like a Ferrari.  

[fixyurdivot]

Those who voted other, please provide some detail.  I added the "other" answer, but not really thinking about any other specific variations.

[perseveringgolfer]

Plain face here, I like the feeling of the ball connecting with the putter face and not protruding grooves

[tommc23]

I use an evnroll now and before that was a ping with an insert 

[fixyurdivot]

On 10/15/2018 at 6:53 PM, perseveringgolfer said:

Plain face here, I like the feeling of the ball connecting with the putter face and not protruding grooves

To be honest, I've not tried out many other putters since getting the Ping.  Looks like plain milled face is old school and most prefer grooves.  If the pro shops down in Yuma have these Evnroll's, I'll have to try them.  While poking around the interwebz about the subject of grooves, I stumbled on this 2011 MGS thread.

Personal preference and "feel" aside, I was hoping to find some controlled tests with slow-motion video of putter strike/roll using various putter designs but not found any.  Another "fact or fiction" question for MGS to answer.  

[cnosil]

To be honest, I've not tried out many other putters since getting the Ping.  Looks like plain milled face is old school and most prefer grooves.  If the pro shops down in Yuma have these Evnroll's, I'll have to try them.  While poking around the interwebz about the subject of grooves, I stumbled on this 2011 MGS thread. Personal preference and "feel" aside, I was hoping to find some controlled tests with slow-motion video of putter strike/roll using various putter designs but not found any.  Another "fact or fiction" question for MGS to answer.  

 

 

There are some videos that show how grooves impact the roll. The issue is how trust worthy are they. You need to deliver the putter exactly the same to see any comparisons and the effectiveness will vary player to player based on how they deliver the ball. There was a Ping video that talked about their research on grooves and they found that grooves reduce ball speed off the face due to less of the face being in contact with the ball; also discussed in the Guerin Rife/MGS video. Not sure MGS has access to the high speed cameras necessary to capture what you want to see. I am sure they will be evaluating how the putting module on the gc quad works to enhance the testing.

 

Grooves may have some effect on the roll, but having the correct loft will do more. Too much loft and the ball launches high and bounces more resulting in a lack of consistency. Too little loft drives the ball into the ground causing in to bounce and be less consistent. With regard to grooves, the milking pattern will also have some impact on ball speed.

 

During every putt there are three phases - skid, pure roll, and deceleration. The percentages for each are consistent across all putting distances. You need to optimize there.

 

Recently I saw a comparison on the O works face vs Evnroll and the result of the test was that there was more consistency with the Evnroll face with regard to launch angle. I’ll update this if I can find it again. Update: here is the Instagram post with lots of good comments including one from MGS:

 

 

 

For me, it isn’t about grooves or no grooves but what putter enables me to roll the ball the same distance consistently off the face. If I am not consistent in where I hit the ball on the face something like an Evnroll or the Ping TR grooves may help. If you hit the ball in the same spot grooves may not provide a benefit and cause the ball to roll shorter than you are used to with a solid face.

 

Sorry for the rambling thoughts.

 

 

[MaxEntropy]

I was one of the "other" votes. I currently have 2 putters in the rotation: a Ping with a grooved insert and an old STX with a smooth, relatively soft, rubbery face.

[Kenny B]

I'm using the Ping Sigma G Doon putter that has elastomer behind an aluminum TruRoll grooved face.  I selected other in the poll.

I tried the Evnroll several times, many models, and it just wasn't for me.