Wildthing Posted November 6, 2018 Share Posted November 6, 2018 Various PGA pros and a 3D company director have stated that LPGA players , on average , have quicker rotations of their hips and ribcage than male PGA players. If that is the case , then why aren't female LPGA players driving the ball longer than the PGA men? I personally haven't seen the stats that prove the above , but if it's true then I am confused because that means the upper body pivot power (ie. lead shoulder socket pulling the lead arm around) that is creating the initial speed in the early downswing (before CF forces get induced in a 'swingers' action) is being 'added' to by something the men can do better than the women. So what is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. 82 Posted November 6, 2018 Share Posted November 6, 2018 A) they are women. Whether society wants to accept biological facts anymore with regards to gender issues, men have always been, and will always be stronger, quicker, and faster than women. B) men (male tour pros versus female tour pros) generate faster clubhead speed at the moment of impact, meaning the ball travels further. That's a direct comparison of course. Now if you had me hit a drive right behind Lexi Thompson on the same hole, I'm quite sure that girl is hitting it about 20-30 yards longer than me, easily. But she's younger, in better shape and swings like a man. Rtracymog, GB13, silver & black and 2 others 5 Quote G400 Driver XR 4 Fairway 16.5° Fli-Hi Utility Iron - 21° G Series 5-9 irons SM7 46°, 50°, 54° & 58° Ghost Spider S putter Nexus Laser Rangefinder Garmin Approach S20 GPS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony@CIC Posted November 6, 2018 Share Posted November 6, 2018 5 minutes ago, GSwag said: A) they are women. Whether society wants to accept biological facts anymore with regards to gender issues, men have always been, and will always be stronger, quicker, and faster than women. B) men (male tour pros versus female tour pros) generate faster clubhead speed at the moment of impact, meaning the ball travels further. That's a direct comparison of course. Now if you had me hit a drive right behind Lexi Thompson on the same hole, I'm quite sure that girl is hitting it about 20-30 yards longer than me, easily. But she's younger, in better shape and swings like a man. She was the one that immediately came to mind when I saw the original post as she and Finau are teamed up for Long Drive. I'll bet she hits it a lot further than 20-30 yds compared to me Mr. 82 and TR1PTIK 2 Quote Left Hand orientation SIM 2 D Max with Fujikura Air Speeder Shaft Cobra Radspeed 3W/RIptide Shaft 410 Hybrids 22*, 26* Cobra Speed Zone 6-GP/Recoil ESX 460 F3 Shafts SM7 54* Wedge Glide 3.0 60* Wedge O Works putter V3 NX9-HD - 4 Wheel EZGO TXT 48v cart - too many shoes to list and so many to buy And BAG Boy Golf Balls: Vice Pro Plus 2020 Official Tester Beginning Driver Speed - 78 2019 Official Tester 410 Driver 2018 Official Tester C300 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveP043 Posted November 6, 2018 Share Posted November 6, 2018 Body rotation is only part of the equation. Arm length and club length, the radius of the swing, are typically greater for men. And men are generally stronger in the hands and arms, so the radial velocity added by that part of the anatomy is greater for men. TR1PTIK and Mr. 82 2 Quote Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X T22 54 and 58 wedges 7-wood 5-wood B60 G5i putter Right handed Reston, Virginia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixyurdivot Posted November 6, 2018 Share Posted November 6, 2018 I don't have an answer to your question but, since the gals pretty much equal or lead the PGA tour in all other statistics, at least we own the one that most guys immediately think of when think of golf. Mr. 82 and tony@CIC 2 Quote G410 Plus, 9 Degree Driver G400 SFT, 16 Degree 3w G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w ZX5 Irons 4-AW Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW (removed from double secret probation ) ER5v Putter (Official Review) AI-One Milled Seven T CH (Official Review) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver & black Posted November 6, 2018 Share Posted November 6, 2018 Men are from Mars, women are from Venus.... duh! KC Golf, TR1PTIK, perseveringgolfer and 2 others 2 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickyBobby_PR Posted November 6, 2018 Share Posted November 6, 2018 Strength, lag, speed, swing arc, all greater with elite male golfers. Quote Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4 Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120 Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60 Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1 Ball: Titleist Prov1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildthing Posted November 7, 2018 Author Share Posted November 7, 2018 Actually , I think I've assumed incorrectly that the movement of the ribcage automatically equates to the movement of the shoulder socket . So really what the 3D companies should be measuring is the speed of the shoulder sockets of PGA men vs LPGA women. With regards the comments about swing arc, radius of swing, arm length, club length favouring the men - that might not altogether be true - see Tutelman's article link below where he simulated changes to arm length, club length, weight, height, strength in his computer program. I know he was only using a male golfer and not comparing it to women but I reckon similar comparisons still apply. So it looks like golf instruction proclaiming increased hip speed can increase clubhead speed is questionable. https://www.tutelman.com/golf/swing/tallGolfer.php Summary: longer arms reduce clubhead speed 2mph a longer club gives back the 2mph we lost from longer arms. increasing the golfer's weight drops clubhead speed 1.5mph, almost as much as arm length increase did. Shoulder Torque: increasing the torque to reflect the golfers increased size gives a marked advantage in clubhead speed. This is the only place in the whole study where the tall golfer's clubhead speed actually increased, compared with a shorter golfer. Conclusion: The reason taller golfers hit it farther is mostly because their size provides a frame for more muscle and larger lever arms at the joints. The rest of it -- larger arc, more massive body -- reduces clubhead speed, and the longer club doesn't get enough back to make up for it. But the bigger golfer is also stronger (or at least has the potential to be stronger, given proper conditioning and nutrition). If he/she realizes that potential, the result is higher clubhead speed. Scientific Note : Triple Pendulum (Sasho MacKenzie model) : Note that an accelerating torque does not assure acceleration. For instance, when shoulder torque kicks in it actually retards the torso rotation. This is basic Newtonian physics; every action has an equal and opposite reaction. In order for the torso to exert any torque via the shoulder joint to release the left arm, the left arm exerts an equal and opposite torque back on the torso via the shoulder joint slowing its release. . So can the bolded underlined statement above explain (from a physics perspective) why male PGA players have less ribcage/torso rotation than LPGA women? The shoulder girdle muscles are contracting and pulling the left arm , but these same muscles are also pulling against the shoulder girdle (which is connected to the ribcage via the clavicle ) , which in turn will decrease the rotational speed of the torso/ribcage. PS. It looks like some theories about PGA golfers mainly using a pivot driven swing might need to be revisited . Initial clubhead speed in the early downswing seems to originate mainly from the arms being swung quickly by an active mix of both shoulder girdle muscles. The lower and upper body pivot , secondary tilt , weight shift seem to all combine to move the lead shoulder socket in such a way that it changes the hand path of the swinging arms (mainly via a pull on the lead arm) so that 'Pseudo CF forces' can be induced at just the right time to optimise clubhead speed through impact. Maybe Leslie King concepts were closer to the truth about how to swing a golf club than first imagined. Golfzilla70 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildthing Posted November 10, 2018 Author Share Posted November 10, 2018 Okay , it looks like that PGA pro and 3D Company director made partially accurate statements but based on statistically skewed data . I've now looked at the graphs for PGA vs LPGA and when averaged out it looks like PGA players have greater pelvis/thorax/arm/club rotational speed. The sample of LPGA players tested are smaller than PGA players where 'some' ladies have shown greater 'pelvis/thorax/arms/club rotational speeds than the max values found for the PGA men (some also have less rotational speeds than the minimum found for PGA players). But making a broad statement that on average LPGA players have quicker hip/ribcage rotations is not wholly accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noodle3872 Posted November 11, 2018 Share Posted November 11, 2018 Using the 2018 Trackman Average Tour Stats for driver carry, women are doing pretty well compared to men. PGA Tour pro's average 2.433 yards of carry per MPH of CHS while a LPGA Tour pro averages 2.319 yards of carry per MPH of CHS. https://blog.trackmangolf.com/trackman-average-tour-stats/ TR1PTIK 1 Quote Ping G430 Max 10K 10.5° driver - Diamana GT 60S Ping G430 Max 15° #3 fairway - Diamana TB 70S Ping G430 Max 21° #7 fairway - Diamana TB 80S Ping G430 Max 26° #5 hybrid - MMTh 90S Mizuno Pro 243 4-PW irons - MMT 105S Mizuno T24 Raw 48°-10S wedge - MMT 105S Mizuno T24 Raw 54°-10S and 60°-06X wedges - MMT Scoring Wedge 105S Ping PLD Ally Blue 4 Titleist Pro V1x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildthing Posted November 11, 2018 Author Share Posted November 11, 2018 It now looks that I have misinterpreted (sigh) those graphs - see below. I thought they showed a total average over the PGA and LPGA samples tested but in fact they were individual golfer profiles. The 2 graphs below are just for individual male and female golfer , but the table below shows the range of values found for all PGA and LPGA males tested. They do show that at the top end of the ranges that LPGA women have faster rotations of pelvis/thorax/arms/club Example : Male Pelvis : 540 , Male Thorax: 797, Male Lead Arm: 1090, Male Club: 2399 Female Pelvis: 715 , Female Thorax: 1092 , Female Lead Arm: 1417 , Female Club: 2679 But PGA men still drive the ball longer on average than LPGA as NOODLE3872 has shown above. So what does this tell us? That increased body segment rotational speeds is not enough to prove cause and effect of high clubhead speed at impact. Addendum 19th Nov 18 I have found another research article which contained more detail than the table shown above. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/5292347_Swing_Kinematics_for_Male_and_Female_Pro_Golfers So looking at the results we can now make a more refined opinion about what is happening between LPGA and PGA golfers. An obvious and stark major difference is the rate at which the wrists are uncocking and the timing of that uncocking. It seems PGA 'probably' hold lag longer and then release later in such a way that they optimise a higher clubhead speed closer to impact. LPGA create similar clubhead speeds in their downswing but it peaks earlier before impact. Therefore the clubhead speed is reducing more before impact than PGA men and probably explains the difference in driving distances. The author of the research points to the fact that LPGA women suffer twice as many injuries to their wrists compared to PGA men which suggests that wrist uncocking is of prime importance in LPGA women (but where they have some physical limitations on how quickly they can facilitate that uncocking action). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orkney Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 Wildthing--what is the link to the article that was the source for the two graphs and tables for your November 11, 2018 post? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgaejw Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 (edited) On 11/6/2018 at 10:07 AM, Wildthing said: Various PGA pros and a 3D company director have stated that LPGA players , on average , have quicker rotations of their hips and ribcage than male PGA players. If that is the case , then why aren't female LPGA players driving the ball longer than the PGA men? I personally haven't seen the stats that prove the above , but if it's true then I am confused because that means the upper body pivot power (ie. lead shoulder socket pulling the lead arm around) that is creating the initial speed in the early downswing (before CF forces get induced in a 'swingers' action) is being 'added' to by something the men can do better than the women. So what is it? Easy... strength. Overall strength, but especially hands, wrists and arms. Edited January 17, 2022 by pgaejw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golfzilla70 Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 On 11/6/2018 at 8:02 PM, Wildthing said: Actually , I think I've assumed incorrectly that the movement of the ribcage automatically equates to the movement of the shoulder socket . So really what the 3D companies should be measuring is the speed of the shoulder sockets of PGA men vs LPGA women. With regards the comments about swing arc, radius of swing, arm length, club length favouring the men - that might not altogether be true - see Tutelman's article link below where he simulated changes to arm length, club length, weight, height, strength in his computer program. I know he was only using a male golfer and not comparing it to women but I reckon similar comparisons still apply. So it looks like golf instruction proclaiming increased hip speed can increase clubhead speed is questionable. https://www.tutelman.com/golf/swing/tallGolfer.php Wildthing, i haven't heard of studies dealing with shoulder torque, but i 100% agree that it's got to have something major to do with the swing. Back in my teen years playing heavier persimmon-headed clubs with steel shafts, i could swing a driver over 120 mph. And too much golf with bad technique ruined the rotator cuff of my lead shoulder. At least that's what i think caused it; it's possible something else did but i can't imagine what it was. Nowadays, i'm 51 years old, and the best speed i can achieve with the modern drivers are in the 100-105 mph range. Doctors told me they could fix the rotator cuff, but there was a chance i'd have less mobility. So i opted not to have the surgery. And i've tried the speed training programs, over the course of a couple of years. I wound up hurting myself on separate occasions and just making my lead arm useless for a few weeks. It's been a hard pill to swallow, that's for sure. Old age sucks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegolfgal Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 It is called testosterone, plain and simple. Men have a lot more of it. TR1PTIK 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildthing Posted January 20, 2022 Author Share Posted January 20, 2022 On 1/17/2022 at 6:36 PM, Orkney said: Wildthing--what is the link to the article that was the source for the two graphs and tables for your November 11, 2018 post? Thanks. They weren't from any article but actually emailed to me by Jon Sinclair who probably has the largest 3D database of Tour Pro golfers in the world (over 160 I think). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildthing Posted January 20, 2022 Author Share Posted January 20, 2022 (edited) I've revisited this issue a few times and it does seem to point to LPGA players wrists being the weak point in their kinematic sequence. Their pelvis and ribcage rotational speeds are similar to PGA , their peak lead arm rotational speeds are similar in both magnitude and positioning in the downswing. PGA trail arm straightening is significantly higher but the speed of the uncocking of the LPGA wrists are far inferior to PGA. Even the 'stretch-shortening' loading capabilities between 'pelvis & torso', 'torso & shoulders' are the same. Dr Phil Cheetham and Dr Greg Rose have mentioned that PGA men are able to activate the 'stretch-shorten cycle' in their wrists far more efficiently than LPGA men, which I assume means they can allow their wrists to passively uncock quicker. If that's the case , then LPGA women aren't able to hold their lag angles as well as PGA men and that would mean inferior clubhead speed by impact. In fact, they use Jon Rahm as an example of a player who can still generate a lot of clubhead speed with a short backswing because of his superior stretch-shorten capability in his wrists compared to other PGA players. Note that LPGA women have 50% more wrist injuries than PGA men. Edited January 20, 2022 by Wildthing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickyBobby_PR Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 9 minutes ago, Wildthing said: If that's the case , then LPGA women aren't able to hold their lag angles as well as PGA men and that would mean inferior clubhead speed by impact. The hold lag thing has been debunked. Monte has talked about this in several videos. russtopherb 1 Quote Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4 Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120 Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60 Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1 Ball: Titleist Prov1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pakman92 Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 It's kind of amusing that 1/2 of the replies are completely geeky and the other half are like 'well, duh, men are stronger.' All in all, I've learned that hip rotation is only part of the equation and perhaps not the most important in generating speed. Quote Epic Max LS 11.5° (10.5°+1) w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 6 stiff Epic Flash 3 Wood 17° (15°+2) w/ Project X Even Flow Green 60 stiff Super Hybrid 21° (20°+1) w/ Mitsubishi Tensei CK Orange 80 stiff Rogue Hybrid 5 (24°) w/ Aldila Synergy 60 HYB Graphite stiff 2021 P790 Irons 5-AW (1° flat, weakened lofts) w/ Aerotech Steelfiber i95 cw regular CBX2 Wedges 54°, 58° w/ True Temper DG 115 Wedge flex Odyssey White Hot OG #1 Stroke Lab, 33 in Pro V1 Bushnell Launch Pro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickyBobby_PR Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 Monte has talked about this and did a nice blog on it. https://rebelliongolf.com/hip-speed-does-not-equal-club-head-speed/ Quote Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4 Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120 Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60 Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1 Ball: Titleist Prov1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildthing Posted January 20, 2022 Author Share Posted January 20, 2022 15 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said: The hold lag thing has been debunked. Monte has talked about this in several videos. That seems to contradict some of the golf scientist's view unless he is talking generally about other faults that could be caused by non-elite golfers who try to retain lag the wrong way. Rod White did an article on Dave Tutelman's website : Swing Physics - technique (tutelman.com) Anecdotal confirmation of this point from DaveT: In December 2009, I was playing in a foursome about my own age. We were all within a year or two of 70, and in relatively good shape for our age. Two of us had roughly a 90º wrist cock at the start of the downswing; the other two had almost no wrist cock at all. Throughout the round, it was telling that the two with wrist cock were roughly equal length; so were the two without wrist cock, but typically 30-50 meters back. I think Dave Tutelman is a member of this forum so maybe he might have a point of view Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnosil Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 16 hours ago, Wildthing said: . If that's the case , then LPGA women aren't able to hold their lag angles as well as PGA men and that would mean inferior clubhead speed by impact. 14 minutes ago, Wildthing said: Two of us had roughly a 90º wrist cock at the start of the downswing; the other two had almost no wrist cock at all. You seem to be addressing two different things. Holding the lag angle implies that the player is maintaining that angle through the downswing until some late release point. As was stated and has been shown in 3D analysis that 2D photographs are deceiving and players don’t hold lag. your response to holding the lag was about haveing a 90* angle at the start of the downswing; there is no discussion of holding that 90* angle through the downswing. it also seems imply that the reason LPGA players are shorter is because they don’t achieve a 90* angle at the top of the backswing. Quote Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: TS3 15* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: Sacks Parente MC 3 Stripe Backup Putters: Milled Collection RSX 2, mFGP2, Futura 5W, TM-180 Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickyBobby_PR Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 36 minutes ago, Wildthing said: That seems to contradict some of the golf scientist's view unless he is talking generally about other faults that could be caused by non-elite golfers who try to retain lag the wrong way. Rod White did an article on Dave Tutelman's website : Swing Physics - technique (tutelman.com) Anecdotal confirmation of this point from DaveT: In December 2009, I was playing in a foursome about my own age. We were all within a year or two of 70, and in relatively good shape for our age. Two of us had roughly a 90º wrist cock at the start of the downswing; the other two had almost no wrist cock at all. Throughout the round, it was telling that the two with wrist cock were roughly equal length; so were the two without wrist cock, but typically 30-50 meters back. I think Dave Tutelman is a member of this forum so maybe he might have a point of view Any amateur tryin to maintain lag is swinging wrong. That’s not how the golf swing works. The best in the world ar releasing it early in the transition. Wrist cock also has nothing to do with it. The wrist only set at 45*. This produces a 90* angle at one loft in the swing typically around lead arm parallel and a point which the swing is 1/2 over. Quote Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4 Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120 Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60 Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1 Ball: Titleist Prov1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildthing Posted January 20, 2022 Author Share Posted January 20, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, pakman92 said: It's kind of amusing that 1/2 of the replies are completely geeky and the other half are like 'well, duh, men are stronger.' All in all, I've learned that hip rotation is only part of the equation and perhaps not the most important in generating speed. I'm not even sure the golf scientists are in any agreement on what powers the golf swing: 1. Dave Tutelman says 'Centrifugal Force' (a pragmatic explanation because the physics one is very complicated). 2. Dr Kwon says the lower body is mainly responsible for generating clubhead speed using ground reaction forces. 3. Rod White says wrist cock angle is a major contributor that the golfer can control. Developing more wrist cock in the early downswing , using the body pivot to develop arm speed then letting the club freewheel out to/through impact with passive wrists (ie. seems like a 'Centrifugal Force' explanation to me). 4. Dr Phil Cheetham thinks a major contributor is the kinematic sequence and the stretch-shorten muscle loading developed between pelvis/torso, torso/shoulder, shoulder/wrist and probably also the mechanical loading between wrist and club (ie. potential strain energy caused in the bending of the club shaft). 5. Dr Sasho Mackenzie has other research findings such as a faster backswing can also help increase your downswing clubhead speed. Trying to maximise your lead foot vertical ground force at club vertical in the downswing is an 'indicator' of clubhead speed. He also has some good videos showing how 'linear work' by forces applied via the hands can explain the generation of clubhead speed . Further, he has provided a better physics explanation of the 'Release' aspect of the golf swing (ie. rather than the pragmatic Centrifugal Force explanation). I've seen a you-tube video where Dr Sasho Mackenzie explains why LPGA players have faster pelvic rotation than PGA and that's because they aren't using ground reaction forces as well as PGA men. 6. Dr Scott Lynn thinks that its a mix of different forces that contribute to the generation of clubhead speed because humans are 'messy'. Vertical and horizontal ground force patterns and rotary torques. Imho , I suspect all the explanations above overlap and I wish they'd get together and provide a more structured explanation (if possible). Edited January 20, 2022 by Wildthing pakman92 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildthing Posted January 20, 2022 Author Share Posted January 20, 2022 (edited) 10 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said: Any amateur tryin to maintain lag is swinging wrong. That’s not how the golf swing works. The best in the world ar releasing it early in the transition. Wrist cock also has nothing to do with it. The wrist only set at 45*. This produces a 90* angle at one loft in the swing typically around lead arm parallel and a point which the swing is 1/2 over. That's not what Rod White seems to suggest in that Dave Tutelman article : "As expected, increasing the amount of wrist-cock (reducing the angle between the arms and shaft) increases the efficiency of the swing. The key point is that the peak speeds all occur at a very similar downswing angle, showing that the swing timing is almost unchanged. The golfer expends the same effort for all three swings, yet we see a 10% increase in head speed resulting in a 10% increase in distance – say 20 m for a 200 m drive -- with no extra effort." But you could be right because Dr Sasho Mackenzie has found a weak correlation between lag angle (between club and lead arm) and clubhead speed. Edited January 20, 2022 by Wildthing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickyBobby_PR Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 46 minutes ago, Wildthing said: That's not what Rod White seems to suggest in that Dave Tutelman article : "As expected, increasing the amount of wrist-cock (reducing the angle between the arms and shaft) increases the efficiency of the swing. The key point is that the peak speeds all occur at a very similar downswing angle, showing that the swing timing is almost unchanged. The golfer expends the same effort for all three swings, yet we see a 10% increase in head speed resulting in a 10% increase in distance – say 20 m for a 200 m drive -- with no extra effort." But you could be right because Dr Sasho Mackenzie has found a weak correlation between lag angle (between club and lead arm) and clubhead speed. I’ve watched and studied hundreds of hours of 1.5 years or so from GG, MonteC AMG, meandmygolf, Eric Cogorno, GG, Chris Ryan, Adam Porzak and a few others. The golf swing is about matchups and there’s lots of ways to do thinks like Bryson, stricker, dg, rahm, Finau as some that you see what many wouldn’t consider typical swings. Even brooks has some flaws but his swing is built around matchups to make it work. the more wrist cock one has the more cupping in the lead wrist. AMG and Monte have some of the best videos talking about proper wrist cock and also for how the wrists move in transition. Proper sequencing is more important. Quote Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4 Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120 Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60 Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1 Ball: Titleist Prov1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildthing Posted January 20, 2022 Author Share Posted January 20, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said: I’ve watched and studied hundreds of hours of 1.5 years or so from GG, MonteC AMG, meandmygolf, Eric Cogorno, GG, Chris Ryan, Adam Porzak and a few others. The golf swing is about matchups and there’s lots of ways to do thinks like Bryson, stricker, dg, rahm, Finau as some that you see what many wouldn’t consider typical swings. Even brooks has some flaws but his swing is built around matchups to make it work. the more wrist cock one has the more cupping in the lead wrist. AMG and Monte have some of the best videos talking about proper wrist cock and also for how the wrists move in transition. Proper sequencing is more important. AMG have some great videos although GEARS did have 'smoothing' on some of their data because they didn't have not enough sensors placed in strategic positions to measure certain movements (ie. wrist flexion/extension , forearm supination). I haven't checked recently to find out whether they have fixed the issues. Example: Jamie Sadlowski at impact - note that the photo shows his left wrist facing the ball-target line (because he uses a very strong left hand grip) but Gears 2D image shows his left wrist facing the target. https://perfectgolfswingreview.net/SadlowskiImpactGears.jpg Here's another and you will note JS lead wrist is cupped but Gears shows it bowed. https://perfectgolfswingreview.net/SadlowskiImpactGearsTwo.jpg Here's a DTL view showing a better photo image of his cupped left wrist https://perfectgolfswingreview.net/SadlowskiP6.jpg Edited January 20, 2022 by Wildthing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickyBobby_PR Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 1 hour ago, Wildthing said: AMG have some great videos although GEARS did have 'smoothing' on some of their data because they didn't have not enough sensors placed in strategic positions to measure certain movements (ie. wrist flexion/extension , forearm supination). I haven't checked recently to find out whether they have fixed the issues. Example: Jamie Sadlowski at impact - note that the photo shows his left wrist facing the ball-target line (because he uses a very strong left hand grip) but Gears 2D image shows his left wrist facing the target. https://perfectgolfswingreview.net/SadlowskiImpactGears.jpg Here's another and you will note JS lead wrist is cupped but Gears shows it bowed. https://perfectgolfswingreview.net/SadlowskiImpactGearsTwo.jpg Here's a DTL view showing a better photo image of his cupped left wrist https://perfectgolfswingreview.net/SadlowskiP6.jpg None of this proves anything you have been advocating for with 90* wrist set or holding lag. Or countering what I said that as one increases wrist cock the lead wrist cups more. As for speed in the swing I like what Mike Adams says. If you want to walk faster move your arms faster and in golf if you want to swing faster samething. Like Jack says you can’t cast soon enough. But the problem with amateurs is because their swings are out of sync they lack turn so when they cast it’s a bad thing whereas someone who has ability to turn and cast ends up in the right impact position. Samething Monte teaches in the no turn cast drills Quote Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4 Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120 Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60 Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1 Ball: Titleist Prov1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildthing Posted January 22, 2022 Author Share Posted January 22, 2022 (edited) 23 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said: None of this proves anything you have been advocating for with 90* wrist set or holding lag. Or countering what I said that as one increases wrist cock the lead wrist cups more. As for speed in the swing I like what Mike Adams says. If you want to walk faster move your arms faster and in golf if you want to swing faster samething. Like Jack says you can’t cast soon enough. But the problem with amateurs is because their swings are out of sync they lack turn so when they cast it’s a bad thing whereas someone who has ability to turn and cast ends up in the right impact position. Samething Monte teaches in the no turn cast drills I'm not advocating anything , just stating what some well regarded golf scientists have said about wrist cock (radial deviation) and lag angle. With regards LPGA not being able to hold their lag angles better than PGA , I am talking about the dynamic forces applied via the hands on the grip that are required to retain lag in the downswing (see video below). Once you understand the video , it's not about 'holding lag' with stiff wrists from the top of the backswing to release but something completely different. I am saying that LPGA women are unable to do the following compared to PGA men: 1. Apply the linear force applied across the grip via the trail hand that will create a negative torque in the downswing (to promote lag). 2. They are unable to create as much 'In Plane Moment Of Force' as PGA men which will angularly accelerate the club from approx P5.5 With regards your assertion that increasing wrist cock also causing cupping , I agree that it 'looks' like the wrist is more cupped but that does not mean that the wrist is actually in physical extension. Hold your lead wrist out in front of you as if you are going to karate chop something. Doesn't the back of your hand look level to the back of your forearm? Now make your hand into a fist and look at the back of your hand. Doesn't the back of your hand look more cupped compared to the back of your forearm? But you haven't actually extended your wrist have you? So just by gripping the club alters the appearance of the back of your hand to look more 'cupped' even though its not actually being actively cupped. Further , if you do radial deviate your wrist while holding a club , it will also alter the appearance of the back of your hand to look even more cupped (extended) even though you haven't actually extended your wrist (see images below from Dr Jeff Mann's website). Image 1 shows a neutral position where I am holding my left wrist in a neutral cocked position approximately half-way between being fully upcocked (fully radially deviated) and fully downcocked (fully ulnar deviated). Note that the back of my left wrist looks to be slightly cupped (scooped) because I have adopted a weak left hand grip. Note that the clubshaft is straight-line-aligned with the black-taped area of my lower left forearm and that they are both in the same plane. Image 2 shows my left wrist in an upcocked position (position of radial deviation) and one can see that the back of my left wrist looks to be more cupped. Image 3 shows my left wrist in an uncocked position (position of ulnar deviation) and one can see that the back of my left wrist looks far less cupped and borderline anatomically flat or slightly bowed (minimally palmar flexed). Edited January 22, 2022 by Wildthing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickyBobby_PR Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 1 hour ago, Wildthing said: With regards LPGA not being able to hold their lag angles better than PGA , I am talking about the dynamic forces applied via the hands on the grip that are required to retain lag in the downswing (see video below). No good golfer maintains lag. They are releasing the wrist cock and bowing the wrist in the transition and are actually moving towards “flipping” at impact. Monte has several videos on this. I also posted his blog about hip speed and the lpga. 1 hour ago, Wildthing said: But you haven't actually extended your wrist have you? So just by gripping the club alters the appearance of the back of your hand to look more 'cupped' even though its not actually being actively cupped. Actually when you take a proper grip there’s cupping of the lead wrist. It’s why good instructors like AMG, GG, Monte, Eric Cogorno, Adam Porzak, Alex Riggs (iirc Martin Chuck talks about this in his yt videos) show the proper swing takeaway is a combination of bowing and cocking the wrist. The more you bow the less you can cock. This is what happens to get to p2. Also no further setting of the wrist is needed at this point. Quote Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4 Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120 Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60 Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1 Ball: Titleist Prov1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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