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Arm Lock Putting Should Be Illegal


LICC

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Just now, LICC said:

But tell me WHY that line was drawn where it was. Some people putt using more body rotation and keeping their arms still. That's a choice.

Different hand grips don't change the essence of swinging a club and don't entail anchoring a part of the club to a different part of your body.

Please explain why that difference makes a difference. Please don't just give a conclusory statement like you usually do. Or say that it's because that's what the ruling bodies decided. Use as many words as you like. 

I don't know, I wasn't in the room, and I've never claimed to know.  As I said at least twice now, they chose to draw a line.  Perhaps, as I suggested, they wanted to limit things as little as possible, allowing the player as much freedom as possible while not specifically anchoring to a non-moving body part.  I'm OK with the line they've drawn.  As others have suggested in a number of threads, if you really want to make your voice heard, why don't you email the USGA or R&A with your opinions and suggestions.   

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10 minutes ago, cnosil said:


Belly putting utilizes the end of the grip as a fixed point that the club moves around. It is anchored to that point. I’m arm lock the grip running up the arm does not create a fixed point.

Anchoring in the golf definition is basically a single fixed point. Think of a boat with an anchor.

What single fixed point does the club touch and move around in armlock?

The rules don't allow long putters to press their forearm to their body (even though they overlook Langer doing it anyway). The tip of the club is not touching the body in that case. It can still move as your body moves. If anything, the side of the grip is secured through the forearm touching the body. It is not a single fixed point, but a fixed point relative to your body's movement. But that is not allowed as it is "anchoring". 

With arm locking, a point of the club (multiple points) is/are fixed to your left forearm.

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The rules don't allow long putters to press their forearm to their body (even though they overlook Langer doing it anyway). The tip of the club is not touching the body in that case. It can still move as your body moves. If anything, the side of the grip is secured through the forearm touching the body. It is not a single fixed point, but a fixed point relative to your body's movement. But that is not allowed as it is "anchoring". 
With arm locking, a point of the club (multiple points) is/are fixed to your left forearm.


Bracing the arm creates a fixed point the putter moves around.

Are You also proposing against a players arms touch their sides when they are setup with your rule modification? Based on what you said above this would also be anchoring.

Could you write the rule as you think it should be written; I’d like to see how you would phrase and define everything.

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8 minutes ago, LICC said:

The rules don't allow long putters to press their forearm to their body (even though they overlook Langer doing it anyway). The tip of the club is not touching the body in that case. It can still move as your body moves. If anything, the side of the grip is secured through the forearm touching the body. It is not a single fixed point, but a fixed point relative to your body's movement. But that is not allowed as it is "anchoring". 

With arm locking, a point of the club (multiple points) is/are fixed to your left forearm.

You just answered what everybody is trying to say. The rules state a SINGLE FIXED POINT. It is not the same as belly putting (single point touching belly) or whatever Langer and Scott did. 

 

 

 

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Just now, cnosil said:

 


Bracing the arm creates a fixed point the putter moves around.

Are You also proposing against a players arms touch their sides when they are setup with your rule modification? Based on what you said above this would also be anchoring.

Could you write the rule as you think it should be written; I’d like to see how you would phrase and define everything.

 

I don't mind arms touching your sides.

I don't believe any part of a golf club should be pressed against any part of your body except your hands, and your hands should not be pressed against any other part of your body during a swing. Simple. 

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16 hours ago, LICC said:

You can accept denigrating the essence of the game if you want. I don't.

With your posts and all you think is wrong with the game. You are doing the denigrating. 

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2 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

With your posts and all you think is wrong with the game. You are doing the denigrating. 

Par for the course for him.  I have him blocked but unfortunately I can see when he takes over a thread by the number of people quoting him (where I can then see his posts).  

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I don't mind arms touching your sides.
I don't believe any part of a golf club should be pressed against any part of your body except your hands, and your hands should not be pressed against any other part of your body during a swing. Simple. 

So we go back to Horshel and Speith having an illegal grip under your rule because their fingers press against their wrists.

You now allow Langer and Scott press their forearms against their body with the broomstick.

I can brace my arm against the side of my body which is currently illegal.

How about disabled golfers with no hands?

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27 minutes ago, cnosil said:


So we go back to Horshel and Speith having an illegal grip under your rule because their fingers press against their wrists.

You now allow Langer and Scott press their forearms against their body with the broomstick.

I can brace my arm against the side of my body which is currently illegal.

How about disabled golfers with no hands?

I don’t see their fingers pressed against their wrists.  I see normal touching from a lead hand low grip. If they separate their hands so much that their top hand presses against their forearm, that should not be allowed. 
 

“How about disabled golfers with no hands?” - If you have to exaggerate your point, you don’t have one. But because I like you, I’ll answer- give exemptions and accommodations for disabled persons. 

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I don’t see their fingers pressed against their wrists.  I see normal touching from a lead hand low grip.


How do you differentiate and verify touching vs pressing?

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2 hours ago, B.Boston said:

I suppose I would be ok with that provided the grip of the club wasn’t anchored up ones buttock. 🤷‍♂️

oh it’s definitely up someone’s butt

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I'm going to forgo any talk of within the rules or spirit of the rules here 😁

I had a lesson this morning, and during a break Steve showed me an armlock putter they brought in, "Because somebody will buy it" (Miles of Golf, Cincinnati). Because this discussion is going on, I asked to try it. With the caveat that five minutes is hardly a thorough evaluation, I found it very intriguing. First thing: it is unbelieveable how upright you need to stand to putt like this. It almost felt like falling over forward to address the ball. The majority of my five minutes was Steve getting me into the right posture and stance. #2: It HAS to be left hand low. Everyone else who has tried it there has apparently being going right hand low, and they all hated it. I'm the first person (all of 2 days!) that pointed out that Bryson is left hand low. #3: It feels really, really strange when compared to my normal, very conventional stroke. #4: MY right hand MUST press into the left arm. Without it there was no hope of any speed control. Finally, once I got a bit used to it, I made 10 straight five footers, 9/10 ten footers, and 4/6 20 footers. It was almost impossible for me to start the ball off-line. However, my speed control was crap. Every putt made it to the hole only because their practice strip rolls at 13.5 stimp. To do any real evaluation I'd need to get it on a real green with normal speed. 

Bottom line, I'm not going to change, but that's not nearly as set in stone as I felt when I got out of bed this morning. 

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Part of the enjoyment of these threads is learning more about golf. Faxon talked about golf forefathers not wanting people to
Putt that way.

Some research indicates that during the 20s and 30s many players anchored the putter to their leg including Bobby jones. Didn’t feel like search the USGA archives for the video

http://www.myusualgame.com/tag/rule-14-1b/

There was a method called DIEGELING where a conventional length putter was pressed into the belly. This method was used in the 20s by hall of fame golfer leo Deigel.

http://theaposition.com/edtravisgolf/wp-content/uploads/sites/65/2015/12/Leo_Deigel_large_640x480.jpg


Croquet style was not outlawed because of its effectiveness but because of appearance.

In the 80s Johnny Miller used an “arm lock” putter.

https://www.golfchannel.com/news/how-it-all-began-history-long-putter

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5 hours ago, Siamese Moose said:

First thing: it is unbelieveable how upright you need to stand to putt like this.

. #2: It HAS to be left hand low. Everyone else who has tried it there has apparently being going right hand low, and they all hated it. I'm the first person (all of 2 days!) that pointed out that Bryson is left hand low.

 


Kuchar isn’t very upright

1573182778531.jpeg


Bryson and kuchar are right hand low. Pretty sure Keegan and Webb are as well.
PuttingStoryBrysonTopper-1694-JamieSquir

 

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54 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Part of the enjoyment of these threads is learning more about golf. Faxon talked about golf forefathers not wanting people to
Putt that way.

Some research indicates that during the 20s and 30s many players anchored the putter to their leg including Bobby jones. Didn’t feel like search the USGA archives for the video

http://www.myusualgame.com/tag/rule-14-1b/

There was a method called DIEGELING where a conventional length putter was pressed into the belly. This method was used in the 20s by hall of fame golfer leo Deigel.

http://theaposition.com/edtravisgolf/wp-content/uploads/sites/65/2015/12/Leo_Deigel_large_640x480.jpg


Croquet style was not outlawed because of its effectiveness but because of appearance.

In the 80s Johnny Miller used an “arm lock” putter.

https://www.golfchannel.com/news/how-it-all-began-history-long-putter

Short people problem:

I look like I am Deigeling every time they hand me the “adult” putter for mini golf. 

well at least I could anchor it to my belly and not even look half as bent over as he did. 😂
 

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3 hours ago, cnosil said:

Both of your picture links want to save files to my hard drive. I'm not saving files I don't know about, so I haven't seen them yet. I'll try to poke around the web on my own. 

The putter has an 80° lie angle. I felt like I was almost falling forward to use it. I'm a foot shorter than Kuchar (though it's funny, my instructor wants me to model my swing off of Kuchar).

I'll be interested to see a video of a right hand low user. Right now I can't imagine how it could work.

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2 hours ago, B.Boston said:

Short people problem:

I look like I am Deigeling every time they hand me the “adult” putter for mini golf. 

well at least I could anchor it to my belly and not even look half as bent over as he did. 😂
 

This is so true I have even done that with a 35 inch putter for fun without needing to bend over and excessive amount.

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1 hour ago, Siamese Moose said:

Both of your picture links want to save files to my hard drive. I'm not saving files I don't know about, so I haven't seen them yet. I'll try to poke around the web on my own. 

The putter has an 80° lie angle. I felt like I was almost falling forward to use it. I'm a foot shorter than Kuchar (though it's funny, my instructor wants me to model my swing off of Kuchar).

I'll be interested to see a video of a right hand low user. Right now I can't imagine how it could work.

Updated the post to show the pictures; tapatalk does a bad job posting pictures from links.  

Just search for one of those players,  you should be able to find a video.   80* is max vertical you can go with a putter,  Bryson may be in that range, but I think most others are more standard lie angles.  

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18 hours ago, cnosil said:

Part of the enjoyment of these threads is learning more about golf. Faxon talked about golf forefathers not wanting people to
Putt that way.

Some research indicates that during the 20s and 30s many players anchored the putter to their leg including Bobby jones. Didn’t feel like search the USGA archives for the video

http://www.myusualgame.com/tag/rule-14-1b/

There was a method called DIEGELING where a conventional length putter was pressed into the belly. This method was used in the 20s by hall of fame golfer leo Deigel.

http://theaposition.com/edtravisgolf/wp-content/uploads/sites/65/2015/12/Leo_Deigel_large_640x480.jpg


Croquet style was not outlawed because of its effectiveness but because of appearance.

In the 80s Johnny Miller used an “arm lock” putter.

https://www.golfchannel.com/news/how-it-all-began-history-long-putter

In those videos, Bobby Jones is not pressing his hands to his leg. 

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LICC to all of us, always:

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In those videos, Bobby Jones is not pressing his hands to his leg. 

The quality of most of the videos is not clear enough to say. People report that he and others braced their putters. The stroke in that era was primarily a pop stroke and it seems like the forearm could be and is some cases was braced against the leg. Just like you say Bernhard Langer anchors and I am saying Spieth and Horschel anchor. Maybe they do maybe they don’t; we often see what we want to see to support our position .

My point was that bracing a putter or body part against the body is nothing new and has been around since as Faxon said “golfs forefathers” played the game. These players Also improved club design to make them more effective and perform better. In my opinion the call to ban them is strictly due to appearances. The call to ban has nothing to do with the spirit of the game or what golf was like 100 years ago.

I am not saying one is right and one is wrong. I personally think that anchoring and armlock should be allowed. You believe the opposite. There are many people on both sides of the discussion. At this point I don’t see any overwhelming reason to change the rules. In my opinion while it provides some additional stability, the grip isn’t locked in any more than a normal grip can be since it does not inhibit all wrist movement and the end of the putter can be altered based on wrist and hand movement. I also don’t think that the rule can be written clearly enough to cover all possible scenarios.

We can continue to go in circles on the discussion as I doubt that anyone will change their mind on the topic. Unless we have some additional evidence; not opinion, to show why the rules should change this topic has pretty much run its course in my mind.

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
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56 minutes ago, cnosil said:


The quality of most of the videos is not clear enough to say. People report that he and others braced their putters. The stroke in that era was primarily a pop stroke and it seems like the forearm could be and is some cases was braced against the leg. Just like you say Bernhard Langer anchors and I am saying Spieth and Horschel anchor. Maybe they do maybe they don’t; we often see what we want to see to support our position .

My point was that bracing a putter or body part against the body is nothing new and has been around since as Faxon said “golfs forefathers” played the game. These players Also improved club design to make them more effective and perform better. In my opinion the call to ban them is strictly due to appearances. The call to ban has nothing to do with the spirit of the game or what golf was like 100 years ago.

I am not saying one is right and one is wrong. I personally think that anchoring and armlock should be allowed. You believe the opposite. There are many people on both sides of the discussion. At this point I don’t see any overwhelming reason to change the rules. In my opinion while it provides some additional stability, the grip isn’t locked in any more than a normal grip can be since it does not inhibit all wrist movement and the end of the putter can be altered based on wrist and hand movement. I also don’t think that the rule can be written clearly enough to cover all possible scenarios.

We can continue to go in circles on the discussion as I doubt that anyone will change their mind on the topic. Unless we have some additional evidence; not opinion, to show why the rules should change this topic has pretty much run its course in my mind.

The USGA and R&A addressed this:

**In adopting Rule 14-1b, the USGA and The R&A have concluded that freely swinging the entire club is integral to maintaining the traditions of the game and preserving golf as an enjoyable game of skill and challenge. The essence of the traditional method of golf stroke involves the player swinging the club with both the club and the gripping hands being held away from the body. The player's challenge is to direct and control the movement of the entire club in making the stroke. **

**This traditional form of golf stroke has prevailed throughout the centuries since the game began. It is true to say that one can find isolated or episodic examples of anchored methods of stroke dating back into the early 1900s, just as one can find early examples of almost any method of stroke that creative players might invent or try, such as putting in a croquet style (seen as early as the 1900s or before). But it is only recently that a non-trivial and recurring use of anchoring methods emerged, first with the long putter in the 1980s and then with the belly putter at the turn of the 21st century - an extremely short time in the history of this 600-year old game and not reflective of any established tradition. ** ...

Reduced to its most basic elements, golf involves a player swinging a club at a ball to move it toward and ultimately into a hole. The player's most basic challenge is to direct and control the movement of the entire club in making that swing. Anchoring the club while making a stroke also involves a challenge, but it is a different one, in which the player uses the immobilization and stability of one end of the club as an essential component of the method of stroke. It is not the same as freely swinging the club. **

**A revealing point that emerged from the input received on the proposed Rule is that a great many golfers appear to agree that, ideally, golf would be played without an anchored stroke. A good number of those who oppose Rule 14-1b on collateral grounds, e.g., that it comes too late or may have undesirable effects at this particular time, say that the governing bodies should have prohibited anchoring at an earlier time; and many others acknowledge that, at a minimum, it would have been a reasonable choice to do so. The concept that a free swing is, or should be, the essential manner in which a golf stroke should be played is deeply ingrained in the traditions of the game. **

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Wait a minute, it HAS gone full circle.  @LICC is somehow using the Ruling Bodies' own informational release to somehow support his contention that the Ruling Bodies are somehow wrong in not prohibiting a "non-anchored" (per the Ruling Bodies' definition) putting style.

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1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

Wait a minute, it HAS gone full circle.  @LICC is somehow using the Ruling Bodies' own informational release to somehow support his contention that the Ruling Bodies are somehow wrong in not prohibiting a "non-anchored" (per the Ruling Bodies' definition) putting style.

Correct. As it has done before (e.g., the unplayable ball rule), the USGA has botched it application of its own principles.

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1 hour ago, LICC said:

Anchoring the club while making a stroke also involves a challenge, but it is a different one, in which the player uses the immobilization and stability of one end of the club as an essential component of the method of stroke. It is not the same as freely swinging the club. **

With armlock, there's not a single point on the club that is immobilized.  THAT is the principle, one that you apparently didn't read.

:titleist-small: Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff

:callaway-small:Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:mizuno-small: T22 54 and 58 wedges

:mizuno-small: 7-wood

:Sub70: 5-wood

 B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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I am completely dumbfounded that this can not be understood. Their words say a free swinging club. The WHOLE club moves during a putt using the armlock style. There is NO fixed point that never moves like during the belly (butt never leaves belly button for example) or broomstick ( butt never leaves chest). 
 

If you believe the rules should be rewritten to make the armlock illegal fine but if you can’t understand that by the rules it isn’t illegal and different than anchored then this topic should just be locked up. We have went past amusing to pointless as nobody is changing their minds. 
 

Edit: Dave beat me to my point. 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, blackngold_blood said:

I am completely dumbfounded that this can not be understood.

I can understand people wanting to change the rule, or thinking that its similar enough to anchoring to be reviewed, but the rule as written is clearly in agreement with the principle set down in the release that was quoted.

:titleist-small: Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff

:callaway-small:Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:mizuno-small: T22 54 and 58 wedges

:mizuno-small: 7-wood

:Sub70: 5-wood

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2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

With armlock, there's not a single point on the club that is immobilized.  THAT is the principle, one that you apparently didn't read.

You like to just repeat conclusions without reasoning. Why does it make a difference if a single point is anchored or an entire portion of the club is anchored? It still uses immobilization to stabilize the club. 

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