Question about different putter designs for different stroke arcs.

[Hook DeLoft]

I know there are putters designed for different arcs but I haven’t been able to find info on the specific design theories and what makes one more suitable than another to a certain type of stroke. For example, how does a putter designed for a strong arc help the player make more putts?  Does it force the player to lesson the arc?  Or does the toe of the putter close more easily because of weighting?  Other factors? 
Thanks

[cnosil]

11 minutes ago, Hook DeLoft said:

I know there are putters designed for different arcs but I haven’t been able to find info on the specific design theories and what makes one more suitable than another to a certain type of stroke. For example, how does a putter designed for a strong arc help the player make more putts?  Does it force the player to lesson the arc?  Or does the toe of the putter close more easily because of weighting?  Other factors? 
Thanks

The theory is based on keeping the putter square to the putters path.   Arc doesn't change based on the putter; arc is established by how far a player stands from the ball.  If you stand closer to the ball the arc will be less than someone that stands farther away.   The toe hang actually slows the closing of the face as the stroke starts to move forward.     There are lots of other design factors that influence the putters rotation and like shafts people respond differently to different weights and toe hangs so there may be slight changes to the stroke.    Ultimately since the face angle has the largest influence in the direction a putt starts  you adjust the design features to help return the putter face to the necessary impact position.    Square at impact isn't always ideal either since most strokes have a bias to the left or the right so the player may need the face delivered slightly open or closed.

[Hook DeLoft]

Ok. How does the design/weighting differ between a putter for a “straight “ stroke and one for a strong arc?  

[cnosil]

8 minutes ago, Hook DeLoft said:

Ok. How does the design/weighting differ between a putter for a “straight “ stroke and one for a strong arc?  

typically for straight you will see putters where the shaft does or would intersect the head closer to the middle and for stronger arcs more toward the heel.   You can then influence if the putter stays closed or open to the arc with offset;  head weight will influence the speed of rotation, and when you look at different putter styles (mallets and blades) weight placement will influence rotation.

[Hook DeLoft]

Thanks 

[Motoboss]

https://golf.com/instruction/putting/cheat-sheet-different-putters-putting-stroke/

[DaveP043]

I have great respect for those who have explained this, and I understand the basic principles.  But I am not convinced that the effect of the weight distribution is a significant factor.  Sure, one type of weight distribution will make it easier to rotate the putterhead than a different distribution, rotation is what we're talking about.  But how much easier or harder is it?  Take any putter, and simply rotate it slowly, a few degrees open, then a few degrees closed, maybe a half-second duration for each direction.  Then try it with a different putter.  Is there REALLY any significant torque required to open and close the face?  To me, its a bit like saying its twice as hard to lift one ounce, as compared to lifting a half-ounce.  True, but lifting either one is REALLY easy.  

In my view, putter fittings can be really critical in finding a putter of the right length, and that you can aim accurately, and that you can consistently hit the right distance.  Length, shape, markings, lie angle, weight (including grip weight/counterbalance), grip size and shape, all can be important.  I just believe that the amount of toe hang is substantially less important than these other factors.

[cnosil]

23 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

In my view, putter fittings can be really critical in finding a putter of the right length, and that you can aim accurately, and that you can consistently hit the right distance.  Length, shape, markings, lie angle, weight (including grip weight/counterbalance), grip size and shape, all can be important. I just believe that the amount of toe hang is substantially less important than these other factors.

 

I agree all those things are important and  toe hang is just a by product of a proper fit.  I can have two putters with the same toe hang and for example if the total weight is different you may get different performance.  I don’t think you should pick a putter solely based on its toe hang.    The coach that taught me about putters showed me captured data on how all these design characteristics influence the rotation of a putter and how you can change them to I’ve the start line left and right.    Edel fitting addresses visual cues on the putters     All design things are done to influence how the person sets up and swings the putter.  
 

Obviously what I have described in this and my other posts are very mechanical type things.  Some people would rather just find a putter that feels good and looks good and build their stroke around that.   Lots of good putters in both camps.  

 

[NM01]

22 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I have great respect for those who have explained this, and I understand the basic principles.  But I am not convinced that the effect of the weight distribution is a significant factor.  Sure, one type of weight distribution will make it easier to rotate the putterhead than a different distribution, rotation is what we're talking about.  But how much easier or harder is it?  Take any putter, and simply rotate it slowly, a few degrees open, then a few degrees closed, maybe a half-second duration for each direction.  Then try it with a different putter.  Is there REALLY any significant torque required to open and close the face?  To me, its a bit like saying its twice as hard to lift one ounce, as compared to lifting a half-ounce.  True, but lifting either one is REALLY easy.  

In my view, putter fittings can be really critical in finding a putter of the right length, and that you can aim accurately, and that you can consistently hit the right distance.  Length, shape, markings, lie angle, weight (including grip weight/counterbalance), grip size and shape, all can be important.  I just believe that the amount of toe hang is substantially less important than these other factors.

Based on my Ping fitting the toe hang is as significant as the rest. They are all equally important. Based on my arc and rate of closure the head options were chosen. How I delivered the putter head at impact determined loft and my stance and how I swing the putter determined lie angle. Then based on tempo weight was chosen. Based on my stroke neck style was also based on what worked with the head chosen and my stroke.

The type of greens that included what type of grass is used, speed of the greens and also green layout played a roll in weight and design.

The fitting was pretty eye opening and I would say neglecting any aspect of the design wouldn’t be optimal in selecting a putter. 

 

 

[DaveP043]

9 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Obviously what I have described in this and my other posts are very mechanical type things.  Some people would rather just find a putter that feels good and looks good and build their stroke around that.   Lots of good putters in both camps.  

We're on the same page here.  I've seen a trend over the past few years to think technologically.  We know more than ever before about the real physics of golf, whether its body dynamics like Sasho McKenzie to the discussions of toe hang and its influence.  They're all really valuable when taken as part of the entire picture.  But there's also a tendency to focus on a single specific technical factor, because its a factor that gets publicity.  Ping has developed specific marketing around arc type and toe hang, and I fear too many people are going to go to the big box store and pick a putter based solely on their own interpretation of their own arc.  That's foolish, and likely to be a waste of money. 

6 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Based on my arc and rate of closure the head options were chosen.

  To make sure I understand, the fitter watched your stroke, and determined from that which putterhead styles you should try, based largely on differences in toe hang?  To me, this seems like self-fulfilling prophesy.  I wonder whether it might have been a fairer test to do all of the other parts of the fitting, and then adjust weights towards heel or two, front or back, and see if that had an impact on your results.  I'm sure you got a great putter for you, I'm just trying to noodle out the best fitting process.  Essentially they have to start somewhere, so they started with an assumption of the right putterhead, based on some initial observations.  It seems like a final step could be to re-evaluate that initial assumption.

[NM01]

4 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

To make sure I understand, the fitter watched your stroke, and determined from that which putterhead styles you should try, based largely on differences in toe hang?  To me, this seems like self-fulfilling prophesy.  I wonder whether it might have been a fairer test to do all of the other parts of the fitting, and then adjust weights towards heel or two, front or back, and see if that had an impact on your results.  I'm sure you got a great putter for you, I'm just trying to noodle out the best fitting process.  Essentially they have to start somewhere, so they started with an assumption of the right putterhead, based on some initial observations.  It seems like a final step could be to re-evaluate that initial assumption.

My fitting was virtual. The only difference between the virtual fitting and an in person fitting is the fitter having the golfer hitting putts. They use the iping app to gather 5 different data points over 3 sets of 5 strokes.

That data combined with biometric data, golfers stance and course conditions mentioned above they determine what head style works, what weight is needed/preferred and it’s not a heel to toe or front to back weighting like with woods/hybrids, it’s a total weight. The slower ones tempo then heavier the head will likely be.

In person fitting would use something close to what is recommended to verify/test and tweak.

Theres different fitting systems and approaches. @Middlerdid a good write up about his putter fitting at TruSpec which I think answers several of your inquiries 

 

[BMart519]

41 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

My fitting was virtual. The only difference between the virtual fitting and an in person fitting is the fitter having the golfer hitting putts. They use the iping app to gather 5 different data points over 3 sets of 5 strokes.

 

Did you hit all of these putts with your current putter at home? Is this a function built into the app or did you work like with a PING fitter?

[NM01]

18 minutes ago, BMart519 said:

Did you hit all of these putts with your current putter at home? Is this a function built into the app or did you work like with a PING fitter?

You can hit them at home or on a course. The function is what the app does.

The requirements are a straight putt of 10’ (you don’t have to make the putts for it to count). They send you an iPod with the app downloaded on it along with a cradle to attach to your putter shaft. You hit a putt and the app reads the stroke. The app will then reset for you to hit the next putt and so on for 5 putts. Then you repeat the process two more time. Once it’s complete you follow the instructions to send the data to your fitter (they currently have two and both are very good. One of them moved from the club fitting side of house to the putting side. He did my g400 fitting a few years back and was one of the best oem fittings I’ve had).

The fitter analyzes the data and complies a presentation for the online zoom call. The fitter i had went into every detail of the data, showed me the heads that fit my stroke, explained each one, got my input on what I liked didn’t like and so on til we came up with a head and configuration that was to my liking.

Based on what I’ve seen elsewhere if there was something the fitter wanted more info on he would have the golfer make take some putts on zoom call to watch. My stroke is pretty consistent from putt to putt so I wasn’t asked to make take any strokes on camera. Per the app my putting stroke is a 5 hdcp

keep in mind this was part of the custom pld program, but if you did a putter fitting with one of their reps my understanding is the process is the same where they use the app plus watch you putt since it’s in person.

Dlow stated in his review of the in person custom putter fitting he went thru the same process I did and they used that data and used putters on hand to get more feedback. I don’t recall if they had/use one of the other fitting systems in conjunction with the app for any fitting at hq

[DCWT]

The shape putter head does not effect the stroke, the putter head is designed for moment of inertia. I'm a club fitter, what effects the stroke is the putters neck or shaft going into the head. Toe hang is what is caused by this. Toe down to the newer face forward hang. Toe down is for strong arc strokes, face balanced straight back straight thru, now if I can recommend a style of putter for everyone, im a firm believer in them just make sure you get fit. No Torque, face forward balanced putters, I fit alot of people into these, especially L.A.B. putters, everyone shaved putting strokes, on average 2 to 3 a round. Hope this helps.

[Kenny B]

Weight affects my stroke the most.  The putter head must be no less than 400g.  Light putters are difficult for me to consistently return to square.

[Motoboss]

I think that holds true for a lot of folks. For me a lighter , under 340 gives me the best control. Even my PLD 450g head feels much to heavy, but it could be the graphite shaft.

The first of next month I have a virtual fitting with Ping and hope to finally settle on a consistent weight for my stroke with some professional assistance.

[chisag]

On 7/18/2022 at 6:55 AM, DaveP043 said:

I just believe that the amount of toe hang is substantially less important than these other factors.

 

... I would make the argument for some, it is the opposite and toe hang is the most important factor. I have a natural gate stroke and with toe hang my putter goes back on a very consistent path. When attempting to use a putter without toe hang the putter head wanders on my backstroke and I seem to have much less control of it's path throwing everything out of alignment. This was recognized in my last putter fitting as well as previous fittings. Mallet, Anser style or 8802 blade style the the hosel closer to the heel with toe hang all work for me but a straight back straight through designed head with no toe hang just don't work well at all. Ymmv. 

[NM01]

7 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... I would make the argument for some, it is the opposite and toe hang is the most important factor. I have a natural gate stroke and with toe hang my putter goes back on a very consistent path. When attempting to use a putter without toe hang the putter head wanders on my backstroke and I seem to have much less control of it's path throwing everything out of alignment. This was recognized in my last putter fitting as well as previous fittings. Mallet, Anser style or 8802 blade style the the hosel closer to the heel with toe hang all work for me but a straight back straight through designed head with no toe hang just don't work well at all. Ymmv. 

The arc of my was the first aspect of the my Ping fitting the fitter started with, then it was rare of closure. These were used to determine the type of head and toe hang although I think he referred to it as something else.

Then it we talked about loft delivery at impact and speed/tempo of the stroke. These were used to figured the loft I needed and the weight. 

[revkev]

Thank you gentlemen, this has been a fascinating and informative read to date, for me at least.  I've been fit for putter a couple of times and know what my numbers are but have never gotten so technical.  Given what I'm reading I'm wondering if those of us who are older developed our putting styles based upon the putters that we first gamed.  We had the putter, went to the practice green and kept adjusting things like ball position and stance until we found something that worked with our equipment.  

 

Just a random thought.....

[cnosil]

31 minutes ago, revkev said:

Thank you gentlemen, this has been a fascinating and informative read to date, for me at least.  I've been fit for putter a couple of times and know what my numbers are but have never gotten so technical.  Given what I'm reading I'm wondering if those of us who are older developed our putting styles based upon the putters that we first gamed.  We had the putter, went to the practice green and kept adjusting things like ball position and stance until we found something that worked with our equipment.  

In my opinion yes.  We picked a putter we liked the look of and did what it took to make it work.  Basically fit the stroke to the putter.  You can be a fabulous putter with this strategy even if the putter and your tendencies conflict.  Sometimes if the timing is a little off or you are in a pressure situation the strike may let you down; some might call you a streaky putter.    Good putters that built their strokes probably didn’t want to know if the putter doesn’t fit them as it might change your mental state over a putt. I read that Crenshaw never wanted to have his stroke measured 
 

Today, we have more options and the ability to configure  the putters and we have tools that help measure our strokes and show the impact of the changes.  Really no different than changing a shaft or weighting in a full swing club.  

[revkev]

11 minutes ago, cnosil said:

In my opinion yes.  We picked a putter we liked the look of and did what it took to make it work.  Basically fit the stroke to the putter.  You can be a fabulous putter with this strategy even if the putter and your tendencies conflict.  Sometimes if the timing is a little off or you are in a pressure situation the strike may let you down; some might call you a streaky putter.    Good putters that built their strokes probably didn’t want to know if the putter doesn’t fit them as it might change your mental state over a putt. I read that Crenshaw never wanted to have his stroke measured 
 

Today, we have more options and the ability to configure  the putters and we have tools that help measure our strokes and show the impact of the changes.  Really no different than changing a shaft or weighting in a full swing club.  

And there's little doubt that our swings developed that way, too.  I'm sure that my swing developed from a combo of reading Golf My Way, Playing baseball into college, my equipment (at that point I still had my starter set) and the fact that my eye has always seen the ball going right to left - as a baseball catcher I could always help a pitcher out with his curve or slider, and later a baseball Dad had no trouble teaching my son how to throw a cutter and then as he got older a variety of breaking pitches.  It's just the shot that fits my eye.

Very interesting, thanks!

[lshines]

Please forgive my ignorance.  When you're speaking of "arc" are you referring to a horizontal curve of the putter - starting - I'm exaggerating - back toward your trail foot, impacting at arc peak near center and farthest away from your toes, ending up near your leading toe?  or are you speaking of a vertical arc, where - exaggerating again -  the putter comes up in the air on the backstroke, is lowest to the ground at center of arc-impact and ending up in the air at the end of the stroke.  My teacher tried to teach me to keep the entire back and forward stroke parallel to the ground.  My putting misses are when I am not lined up properly, at least I think.

[chisag]

1 hour ago, lshines said:

Please forgive my ignorance.  When you're speaking of "arc" are you referring to a horizontal curve of the putter - starting - I'm exaggerating - back toward your trail foot, impacting at arc peak near center and farthest away from your toes, ending up near your leading toe?  or are you speaking of a vertical arc, where - exaggerating again -  the putter comes up in the air on the backstroke, is lowest to the ground at center of arc-impact and ending up in the air at the end of the stroke.  My teacher tried to teach me to keep the entire back and forward stroke parallel to the ground.  My putting misses are when I am not lined up properly, at least I think.

, 

... The horizontal curve. Think of it as a mini golf swing. While I don't want to interfere with lessons because your instructor may be telling you something he/she thinks will help you specifically, the putter head is going to come above parallel or you would need to manipulate your body to keep it parallel to the ground. Thinking of keeping it as low as possible is perfectly OK but it should be a natural movement.

... This may help. Picture yourself hitting a 100ft putt from off the green. You will need a longer stroke than normal for that kind of distance and you will feel/see the putter head on it's arc and coming up pretty high in the air. Hope this helps... 

[lshines]

THANKS Chisag!  I understand.  Gosh, I probably have been doing it wrong all along!  But, it's for sure I do a lot wrong   Lack of playing/practicing time is a bummer.  So, like a normal swing - out and around the front of one's toes.  Not, like a shallow upright U.

 

[chisag]

5 minutes ago, lshines said:

So, like a normal swing - out and around the front of one's toes. 

 

... Pretty much. I am a big believer in a natural stroke, so that dictates a mid to heavy arc. It takes no manipulation, just a flow back and through. That said, the putter head is opening on the back stroke and closing on the through stroke so the face angle can change at impact to a little open/closed as opposed to square. Plenty of golfers struggle with putting and use more of a SBST, straight back and straight through stroke and it works well for many. SBST still has at least a tiny arc but much less than a natural arc. Over simplified, feel players do better with a natural arc and technical players do better with a STST stroke, so that is a good starting point but every golfer is different and you just have to find what works best for you.