The New Bryson Irons

[GolfSpy_APH]

https://mygolfspy.com/news-opinion/the-bryson-experience-is-just-what-the-doctor-ordered-for-the-masters/

What do you guys think of 3-D printed irons?

[Swood1994]

His bag is very unconventional from anyone else right now. Gaming a mini driver as his 3-wood is pretty crazy to most of us. 3-D printing I don’t think is out of the realm of manufacturing innovation as I’m sure it takes less time than the forging process. So the question I would ask is good they can get the same feel and performance as a forged iron but with less manufacturing time? It Would be interesting to see a comparison of these vs a similar forged head. 

[downlowkey]

11 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

What do you guys think of 3-D printed irons?

The technology is a noteworthy development for bespoke customization but it’s still very much a niche market. The specific advantage re: custom bulge/roll shaping that Bryson showed up with this week, is one of the primary benefits that I envisioned nearly four years ago when @GolfSpy Barbajo wrote a nice article about Cobra’s initial foray into the 3-D printed retail space. That it took a company four years to implement that particular personalization potential in a tour player’s bag is the most surprising thing to me.

I can’t remember the exact cost referenced to manufacture Bryson’s irons this week but pretty sure it was north of $10K. If true, the retail price point would be truly eye-watering and out of reach for all but the PJ charter class.

It’s hard to fathom that Bryson would put those virtually untested irons into play this week at Augusta, where recovery shots so often demand exaggerated shot shape. I personally think the straighter ball flight that the custom bulge/roll face shape lends itself to is the reason we witnessed him pleading for his second shot into #15 Saturday afternoon to “hook, hook, hook!!!” to no avail.

[Big Deal Walsh]

I have mad respect for Bryson pushing the boundaries of what can be achieved in the golf world. I've seen people on Twitter complain that his irons are "unfair" for a player to develop better equipment but Tiger did the same thing in 2000 with a solid core golf ball. Tiger gained 10 MPH ball speed and went on to win the US Open by 15! At the time, this ball wasn't available to other players but the concept remains the same. In my opinion, I don't think majority of golfers have the right swing speed for this type of technology to really make a big difference, but I love that it opens possibilities for changes. 

[NM01]

On 4/14/2024 at 5:05 AM, GolfSpy_APH said:

https://mygolfspy.com/news-opinion/the-bryson-experience-is-just-what-the-doctor-ordered-for-the-masters/

What do you guys think of 3-D printed irons?

Wilson was doing 3d printed drivers during the DVD show for initial testing.

tech has come a long way and 3d printing is and will a part of it. Like with anything else in golf if they work for the individual using them then enjoy the game with them 

[NotScratchYet]

This brings up an interesting hypothesis for the future of irons and fittings.  Can you imagine the possibility of getting a fitting, and then sending the program off to a manufacturer for printing?  It may be possible that with the cost of 3-D printing going down, printing your own conforming irons?  We may be witnessing the future.  Nothing in my mind can replace that forged feel, but this could be the start of something.

[Pratikpatnaik]

This might just turn into a fad, but I am sure all the manufacturers are watching it closely. If the big names start putting in the weight, the cost will significantly go down and if so I cannot imagine how the golf gear landscape look like.. I think the world is waiting for Bryson to win a major playing with those clubs !

[AverageSizedDog]

1 hour ago, Pratikpatnaik said:

This might just turn into a fad, but I am sure all the manufacturers are watching it closely. If the big names start putting in the weight, the cost will significantly go down and if so I cannot imagine how the golf gear landscape look like.. I think the world is waiting for Bryson to win a major playing with those clubs !

I think manufactures will continue to increase their contracts with the professionals to keep the pros from trying new things. Until players like bryson that want to change how the game is played, bryson might be the only player to do so. I also suspect golf pros don't care enough to change how things are made or done. 

[AndySP]

I’ve been thinking about the bulge and roll aspect of these and I can’t figure out why he would do it.  The way I understand it, the only reason you need it is to counteract the way the deeper center of gravity is affected by off-center hits, aka, “gear effect”:

(https://www.tutelman.com/golf/ballflight/gearEffect.php)

Dave Tutelman’s blog notes though, there is no (or very little) gear effect on irons because the center of rotation is close to the face, so the ball is not getting pushed to the side.  I could imagine vertical gear effect in irons but not horizontal.

So is Bryson being weird, or is there something more at play? Is there data anywhere?

[jared52]

1 hour ago, AndySP said:

I’ve been thinking about the bulge and roll aspect of these and I can’t figure out why he would do it.  The way I understand it, the only reason you need it is to counteract the way the deeper center of gravity is affected by off-center hits, aka, “gear effect”:

(https://www.tutelman.com/golf/ballflight/gearEffect.php)

Dave Tutelman’s blog notes though, there is no (or very little) gear effect on irons because the center of rotation is close to the face, so the ball is not getting pushed to the side.  I could imagine vertical gear effect in irons but not horizontal.

So is Bryson being weird, or is there something more at play? Is there data anywhere?

Bryson marks a specific dimple on his ball he wants his putter to hit because of the layout of the surrounding dimples. If the bulge gets him 0.00001% closer to his intended target, he's going to use that.

[downlowkey]

6 hours ago, AndySP said:

I’ve been thinking about the bulge and roll aspect of these and I can’t figure out why he would do it.  The way I understand it, the only reason you need it is to counteract the way the deeper center of gravity is affected by off-center hits, aka, “gear effect”:

(https://www.tutelman.com/golf/ballflight/gearEffect.php)

Dave Tutelman’s blog notes though, there is no (or very little) gear effect on irons because the center of rotation is close to the face, so the ball is not getting pushed to the side.  I could imagine vertical gear effect in irons but not horizontal.

So is Bryson being weird, or is there something more at play? Is there data anywhere?

I’m not 100% certain because it’s nearing the ragged edge of my own physics education and golf IQ, but will offer the following thoughts:

The referenced Tutelman “study” was last updated April ‘09, when, save for instances like a full hybrid set, cast and forged iron loft designs resulted in face forward CoG heads. One of the things that 3D printed negative space matrix structure allows is significant mass relocation. For instance, nudging CoG further back and concurrently bumping up MOI, in a traditionally shaped package (read: svelte sole width).

That’s a potentially enviable design advance. Provided you account for the increasing, albeit minimal, gear effect, particularly at the ludicrous speed (credit - Spaceballs) Bryson is applying. Because it bears repeating, “Bryson Speed” is the crucial component of the abnormal things happening at impact when he is swinging his irons.

So, _if_ the CoG has moved slightly rearward away from the face, I can see how limited bulge could offer a marginal benefit. Specifically to redirect some of the draw spin axis tilt he imparts with his exaggerated (by tour standards) in-to-out path and relatively closed club face, particularly on toe strikes.

From what I understand about the effect that roll has on launch/descent angles, I seriously doubt his new wrenches have much if any at all. I could possibly see the benefit of having a smidge of roll radius north of the sweet spot in his lowest lofted irons but that extra dimension would likely complicate the face design significantly.

Colloquially speaking, “bulge & roll” would probably be more accurately written as bulge-and-roll, because of the in tandem application of that design package in modern driver/fairway wood faces. But all the talking heads have been erroneously throwing that term around out of habit with regard to the 3D printed Avoda heads. Essentially, Bryson’s irons are almost certainly all bulge and no roll, and probably not much bulge either compared to what you see in driver faces.

Bryson is always hunting gains in the margins, and IMO, has always been hyper focused on controlling torsional forces during impact collision. I think it’s part of the reason he decided to bulk up (more lever mass = increased torsional stability). I think it’s why he had LA Golf build him ultra-low torque “rebar” on their HD mandrels. And now, with advanced 3D printing mass relocation options and his speed, I think it’s why he’s experiementing with some bulge in his irons (read: redirecting start line on toe/heel strikes).

If we were to look at a simple overlay of his dispersion pattern for say 7-iron, before/after the Avoda experiment, I don’t think there would be a huge difference in the offline dimension. But I’m guessing the story that a simple dispersion pattern comparison would not reveal and the quality that he finds beneficial, is how the ball gets there. Namely, toe strikes start slightly farther right and are more likely to finish right of target, where they formerly crossed the target line and finished left. With the converse also holding true for heel strikes. In theory, those improved shot shape qualities should also result in marginally better distance control. Put that all together and it’s a pretty significant improvement from a course management perspective in the “cover distance” era at the highest level of the game.

And now my head hurts, so if you don’t mind, I’d like to take a page out of Keith Moon’s party playbook and go drink two beers as fast as humanly possible.

[Philpug]

On 5/9/2024 at 8:10 PM, Pratikpatnaik said:

but I am sure all the manufacturers are watching it closely. I

If it sells clubs ... we will see it at the consumer level. 

[AndySP]

@downlowkey  I appreciate the response. I believe Bryson’s irons only have the horizontal adjustment.

I decided to do some more looking.

Maltby calculates the cg and moi for lots of irons—the most game improvement versions.  I think you need to do some calculating based on the difference between the actual and basic cg numbers, but I get that game improvement irons (e.g ping g430, T400) are around .2 inches back from the face. Whereas a t100 cg is .006 back, t200 is .01. 

Interestingly, there some blade designs where the cg is in front of the face. So there would be reverse gear effect on those! A strike off the toe on them would cause fade spin.

Tutelman has a calculation for the side spin caused by gear effect as well:

58,830 x (force of the ball) x (velocity of ball) x (horizontal CG) x (distance of impact from CG) / moi

I don’t have time to plug it in, but it seems like small differences based on the size of the other numbers.  Speed has an effect, but if the cg lines up near the face, there is practically 0 geared side spin according to this formula.

I bet the major manufacturers calculate these numbers. Something to ask Ping or Callaway, maybe because I don’t know how much sidespin is needed to noticeably move the ball.  A quick look seems to require about 600 rpm or so on an iron.  

I guess for marginal gains, maybe it will eventually be worthwhile for these new modern irons with deep cog’s, but for the current players irons it seems overkill to me.  I want to see a robot test the irons so bad.