Club fitting is a scam!

[Louis_Posture]

6 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Why would anyone need to return clubs or do anything custom?   Everything should work the same;  isn't that part of your discussion of fittings are a SCAM? 

.

 

What do you mean by "everything should work the same"?

Before his recent purchase, my son had never swung a driving iron club.

 

6 minutes ago, cnosil said:

 

Read the TGW guarantee,  there are limitations:  https://www.tgw.com/playability   I have to pay for shipping both ways,  limited on number of clubs that can be returned per year, there is a price minimum, and I get a store credit and not my money refunded.

 

TGW offers a sensational opportunity to try custom clubs , and I believe orders for more than $100 ship free. If new clubs from TGW are too much for your budget ebay is filled with excellent condition preowned clubs at reasonable prices.

[cnosil]

28 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

What do you mean by "everything should work the same"?

Before his recent purchase, my son had never swung a driving iron club.

 

TGW offers a sensational opportunity to try custom clubs , and I believe orders for more than $100 ship free. If new clubs from TGW are too much for your budget ebay is filled with excellent condition preowned clubs at reasonable prices.

Why does it have to be custom,  stock should work just fine.  if he has clubs, why does he need a driving iron?  Why does he even need to swing the driving iron?     You also said:  "If the shot results were not good for him we probably would return it for a different brand-model driving iron or maybe return it and order the same Mizuno head with a custom shaft."  No reason to do that a driving iron is a driving iron' wouldn't they perform the same? 

You asked what were "limitations"  I simply pointed out the limitations at TGW. You said that you could get the clubs "without risk of financial loss."  Return shipping is a financial loss.  Store credit is a financial loss since I don't get my money back. 

Edited Friday at 01:39 AM by cnosil

[Erin B]

@cnosil very valid points!!! 

[EasyPutter]

1) 90% of golfers shoot 90 or worse and don't know what they're doing with their swing or equipment, so that equals a vulnerable consumer

Not all of the 90% are "vulnerable consumer"s as some are blessed with passive aggressiveness.   Oh,   I wonder what prompted this response 

All issues in Points 2) thru 6) deal with on course play and unrelated to club fitting.

7) company employees assigned to fit consumers and independent fitters both tell me their goal is not to teach swing technique or improve the customer's scoring average,  but only to try and marginally improve the customer's shots; for example reduce a bad driver shot from 30 yards off line to 25 yards off line. 
 

No.

Car dealers do not try to teach customers how to drive, not even how to avoid an accident leaving their parking lot.  Club fitters are not there to teach a golfer to swing a club.  Their job is to help the golfer make a largely impulse driven decision about something they had in mind in the first place. 

A novice golfer should not go to a fitter for lessons on using a golf club any more than going to a teaching pro for advice on any particular club.  Each job has a different focus of club (fitter) and swing (teaching pro).  The bottom line is the fitter's job is not to improve the customer's shots.  That is the job of the swing coach/teaching pro.  The golfer's joy of the game is to see improvement as their ability improves, and it just might be the swing tip from the coach, and that club fitting that ensured the right length and loft for the golfer's needs that can help the golfer achieve a game with less exercise for fewer swings as recorded on the scorecard. 

Lower score is not the goal of every golfer as many golfers play for the physical and mental health benefits.  Lower score is largely an ego driven quest that cripples many who hit from wrong tee boxes for their ability, and who would otherwise have a good club swing and ball flight commensurate with their ability. 

Expectations are what needs adjusting for most people to improve their golf game, and their worry about what others might think hurts their game more than a club that was not fitted.

Edited Friday at 04:35 PM by EasyPutter
readability

[Dan Yates]

44 minutes ago, EasyPutter said:

1) 90% of golfers shoot 90 or worse and don't know what they're doing with their swing or equipment, so that equals a vulnerable consumer

Not all of the 90% are "vulnerable consumer"s as some are blessed with passive aggressiveness.   Oh,   I wonder what prompted this response 

All issues in Points 2) thru 6) deal with on course play and unrelated to club fitting.

7) company employees assigned to fit consumers and independent fitters both tell me their goal is not to teach swing technique or improve the customer's scoring average,  but only to try and marginally improve the customer's shots; for example reduce a bad driver shot from 30 yards off line to 25 yards off line. 
 

No.

Car dealers do not try to teach customers how to drive, not even how to avoid an accident leaving their parking lot.  Club fitters are not there to teach a golfer to swing a club.  Their job is to help the golfer make a largely impulse driven decision about something they had in mind in the first place. 

A novice golfer should not go to a fitter for lessons on using a golf club any more than going to a teaching pro for advice on any particular club.  Each job has a different focus of club (fitter) and swing (teaching pro).  The bottom line is the fitter's job is not to improve the customer's shots.  That is the golfer's joy of the game, to see improvement as their ability improves, and it just might be that club the fitter ensures is the right length and loft for their needs that will help the golfer achieve a game with less exercise for fewer swings as recorded on the scorecard. 

Lower score is not the goal of every golfer as many golfers play for the physical and mental health benefits.  Lower score is largely an ego driven quest that cripples many who hit from wrong tee boxes for their ability, and who would otherwise have a good club swing and ball flight commensurate with their ability. 

Expectations are what needs adjusting for most people to improve their golf game, and their worry about what others might think hurts their game more than a club that was not fitted.

I see your point, to an extent, but I think that a lot of golfers could benefit from a fitting, whether their goal is just to enjoy the game and get some exercise outdoors or they enjoy competing or just trying to incrementally improve their games.  I think it’s a pretty universal truth that, for most people, we enjoy the game more when we’re playing well.  To your point, I think that can mean a lot of different things for different golfers.  
 

I see people playing clubs that are too long or too short for them, or their setup is either too upright, or too extended making good contact really difficult due to the lie angle of the face.  Some have halfway decent/workable swings that aren’t getting them anywhere because of the club fit.  I met a young guy earlier this year who just took up golf two years ago and bought a set of Nike TW blades at a yard sale - he didn’t hit a flush shot all day.  A setter could get him into a much better game-improvement or super-game improvement club that would help him make the most of his erratic swings until he settled down.  
 

Completely agree that a lot of club purchases are impulse buys trying to find that extra 5 yards or better dispersion patterns, or more control, and that there are people out there who just want them to say they have the latest.  But I disagree that the majority of golfers don’t want to improve, or couldn’t, or that fitting wouldn’t help a large number of them.  
 

When I went for my PXG fitting two years ago (shout out to Paul in Minneapolis), I was pretty set on comparing their milled blade to the 0311P and had my launch monitor numbers from a similar indoor Trackman session with my Mizuno’s, and the Callaway and TaylorMade irons I demo’d.  I was just one year back from shoulder surgery and still not getting great mobility in my turn, and Paul asked me about it, as well as my address position  and if that was how I normally set up (he took a picture and I was definitely a little stiff and more upright than usual), took a couple of measurements and suggested I try a club bent 1 or 2 degrees flat.  My iron miss had always been a hook or an over-compensated block-push.  Hitting the 1 degree flat irons reduced my dispersion average almost 9 yards across 20 swings.  Looking at my club path, AoA, and launch angles, they recommended I order clubs 2 degrees strong.  
 

There are obviously a lot of good and bad fitters and good and bad experiences with fitters.  I agree with you about expectations being a big part of the relationship management.  Cost to benefit too, like others have said.  If your swing is different every time you pick up the club, working on consistency has to come before a fitting would help.  Spend the money on lessons.  But a good teaching pro is going to point out if clubs aren’t a good fit, if only because it’s going to affect the expected outcome and be fighting an uphill battle.  Just like a good fitter is going to know enough about the golf swing to ask questions that help them understand what the player wants from the fitting so they can adjust expectations.  
 

Just my two cents - I’ve been lucky to have mostly good fitting experiences.

[QuadU]

My current irons (Cobra Forged Tecs) are what I was fitted into. The woods, wedges and putter from that fitting are no longer in my bag.

Unless you're close to scratch and your game is locked in as is forever, why would you want clubs designed for your imperfect swing? I doubt I'll get fitted again.

[Erin B]

Time to beat the dead horse again... Not every golfer has the same swing, not every golfer has the same lie angle, not every golfer can hit Xstiff shafts, not every golfer has the same release. Putting every golfer into standard sets of clubs will make every golfer mediocre at best. Sure you'll have some outliers that can hit those standard clubs very well, but most of the other golfers will never reach their full potential without the proper equipment that is FITTED for them. There's reasons why shafts are flexed from lady to Xstiff, and there's reasons why there are expert club builders who can manipulate the club heads to get the loft and lie a particular golfer needs. It is so the equipment isn't a hindrance to that golfer's full potential.

[cnosil]

7 minutes ago, QuadU said:

Unless you're close to scratch and your game is locked in as is forever, why would you want clubs designed for your imperfect swing? I doubt I'll get fitted again.

Just to make sure u understand if you decide to buy new clubs you will walk into the store (or order online) grab a random driver, wood, hybrid, iron, putter, whatever without ever swinging the club?   
 

This is the question I have for anyone that is anti “fitting”.    If your answer is that you wouldn’t buy clubs that way and you need to look at the loft, shaft flex, or hit them then you are advocating for “fitting”.   What you need to provide more detail on is what is the definition of “fitting”.

 I would guess that the OP  @Louis_Posture actual position is that high end fitting places like club champion and true spec are not something that the average or even high single digit player needs.   It was also stated that his son is trying driving irons and could send the one he purchased back and try a different one from a different OEM with a different shaft.   IMO, that is a fitting done by the player himself.  There are multiple types of fittings.   
 

i also don’t understand the point about inconsistent or imperfect swings.  All swings are imperfect,  PGA pros hit poor shots because there are inconsistencies and imperfections in their swings.  Hitting shots fat, thin, off the toe, or for the heel probably won’t  influence the profile or type of clubs you are fit into.   

[GolfSpy_APH]

3 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Just to make sure u understand if you decide to buy new clubs you will walk into the store (or order online) grab a random driver, wood, hybrid, iron, putter, whatever without ever swinging the club?   
 

This is the question I have for anyone that is anti “fitting”.    If your answer is that you wouldn’t buy clubs that way and you need to look at the loft, shaft flex, or hit them then you are advocating for “fitting”.   What you need to provide more detail on is what is the definition of “fitting”.

 I would guess that the OP  @Louis_Posture actual position is that high end fitting places like club champion and true spec are not something that the average or even high single digit player needs.   It was also stated that his son is trying driving irons and could send the one he purchased back and try a different one from a different OEM with a different shaft.   IMO, that is a fitting done by the player himself.  There are multiple types of fittings.   
 

i also don’t understand the point about inconsistent or imperfect swings.  All swings are imperfect,  PGA pros hit poor shots because there are inconsistencies and imperfections in their swings.  Hitting shots fat, thin, off the toe, or for the heel probably won’t  influence the profile or type of clubs you are fit into.   

All of this.

Self fitting is a costly and dangerous endeavor that while fun id also extremely frustrating.

[Shankopotomous]

6 minutes ago, cnosil said:

..... Hitting shots fat, thin, off the toe, or for the heel probably won’t  influence the profile or type of clubs you are fit into.   

If i understand correctly i kinda disagree with this last part....

I have an imperfect swing but it is fairly repeatable.  The miss i tend to have is a slight toe side impact on the face.  Certain clubs have more or less forgiveness in that area.  Going through a fitting process helps me find the ones to keep the effect of that particular miss to a minimum.  That isnt my first criteria for selecting a club but it isnt far down the list and is definitely a tie breaker.

[Josh Parker]

9 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Just to make sure u understand if you decide to buy new clubs you will walk into the store (or order online) grab a random driver, wood, hybrid, iron, putter, whatever without ever swinging the club?   
 

This is the question I have for anyone that is anti “fitting”.    If your answer is that you wouldn’t buy clubs that way and you need to look at the loft, shaft flex, or hit them then you are advocating for “fitting”.   What you need to provide more detail on is what is the definition of “fitting”.

 I would guess that the OP  @Louis_Posture actual position is that high end fitting places like club champion and true spec are not something that the average or even high single digit player needs.   It was also stated that his son is trying driving irons and could send the one he purchased back and try a different one from a different OEM with a different shaft.   IMO, that is a fitting done by the player himself.  There are multiple types of fittings.   
 

i also don’t understand the point about inconsistent or imperfect swings.  All swings are imperfect,  PGA pros hit poor shots because there are inconsistencies and imperfections in their swings.  Hitting shots fat, thin, off the toe, or for the heel probably won’t  influence the profile or type of clubs you are fit into.   

4 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

All of this.

Self fitting is a costly and dangerous endeavor that while fun id also extremely frustrating.

Haha!  Can become very very expensive!

[cnosil]

14 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

All of this.

Self fitting is a costly and dangerous endeavor that while fun id also extremely frustrating.

Agree 100% and most people are not in a position to self fit.   But we do and it is a form of “fitting”.  

[Erin B]

21 minutes ago, Josh Parker said:

Haha!  Can become very very expensive!

I so wanted to do this meme!!!

[Erin B]

15 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Agree 100% and most people are not in a position to self fit.   But we do and it is a form of “fitting”.  

@Preeway @Derek Eskam @Puente37 and @cksurfdude can attest to my self fitting experiment.  I have quite a few driver shafts!!!

[cksurfdude]

8 minutes ago, Erin B said:

@Preeway @Derek Eskam @Puente37 and @cksurfdude can attest to my self fitting experiment.  I have quite a few driver shafts!!!

Not shown - Newton Motion driver shaft. Oh yeah there's other clubs and shafts around the house, too.

Yes I have been through several fittings at a few different club fitters, but I really do enjoy learning via the trial & error experimentation process.

Edited Friday at 05:22 PM by cksurfdude

[Erin B]

@GolfSpy_APH I just remembered reading your blog about PXG community call with Mike Nicolette and why he feels fittings are so important. I hope you don't mind that I borrowed from your blog...

The Importance of Fitting: A PXG Core Principle

One theme that came up repeatedly throughout the call was the importance of custom fitting. Nicolette stressed that the performance gains PXG products offer are maximized when golfers get properly fitted for their equipment. He shared a memorable analogy:

"It’s like buying the most expensive pair of shoes—if they don’t fit, you’re going to hate wearing them. The same goes for golf clubs. If they aren’t fitted to your swing, it doesn’t matter how much technology is in them—you won’t get the best out of them."

PXG’s fitting process was praised for its attention to detail and customer service, a reflection of founder Bob Parsons’ philosophy of delivering a premium experience. Nicolette explained that PXG fitting specialists are trained not only to look at the technical aspects of a player’s swing but also to make sure the clubs feel comfortable and look right to the golfer at address. This ensures that every player walks away confident that their new PXG clubs are perfectly suited to their game.

[Josh Parker]

I should have posted this at the very beginning.  I'm starting to feel like this may end up like the great "ball rollback" discussion....

Where is Ashton Kutcher...

 

 

[RetiredBoomer]

So many golf internet forum participants get really riled up over the controversial issues: club fitting, ball rollback, grooves, custom fitting, loft jacking, 14 club limit, ready golf, and generally divisive topics like that.

I don't get it.  I could enjoy going on and on about that stuff forever--I love arguments like that--
but that's not the predominant feeling here,
and it only gets the community angry.

I realize that now, but it took me a while.

 

 

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, RetiredBoomer said:

So many golf internet forum participants get really riled up over the controversial issues: club fitting, ball rollback, grooves, custom fitting, loft jacking, 14 club limit, ready golf, and generally divisive topics like that.

I don't get it.  I could enjoy going on and on about that stuff forever--I love arguments like that--
but that's not the predominant feeling here,
and it only gets the community angry.

I realize that now, but it took me a while.

 

 

I don't think everyone gets angry;  they like you want to debate the topics.  Most people here are performance centric and don't understand why you want 5* lofts between irons and clubs with retro lofts.   On the surface it makes zero sense from a performance perspective.   As I posted in one of my recent responses to this thread people are not clear about what they are saying.  there are many types of fittings and if you go to a store and hit a club to see if it works for you,  it is a type of fitting.   I think in this thread the OP definition is high end fittings where high dollar exotic shafts are recommended for players shooting 90+.  I'd probably agree with that statement.  I'd also say people; myself included, don't understand every aspect of equipment and don't have the technical background or details to answer questions.  The ball rollback thread is an exampe of that since no one knows how our  game will be impacted.  

[Erin B]

2 hours ago, RetiredBoomer said:

So many golf internet forum participants get really riled up over the controversial issues: club fitting, ball rollback, grooves, custom fitting, loft jacking, 14 club limit, ready golf, and generally divisive topics like that.

I don't get it.  I could enjoy going on and on about that stuff forever--I love arguments like that--
but that's not the predominant feeling here,
and it only gets the community angry.

I realize that now, but it took me a while.

 

 

I don’t think anyone is angry at all. I think most of us are trying to understand the reasons against fittings. We also try and understand your point of view with your loft jacking “whatever”. Most of us want to improve our game and things like fittings help most of us. I can tell you factually they have helped me. But anger, naw. 

[funkyjudge]

2 hours ago, RetiredBoomer said:

So many golf internet forum participants get really riled up over the controversial issues: club fitting, ball rollback, grooves, custom fitting, loft jacking, 14 club limit, ready golf, and generally divisive topics like that.

I don't get it.  I could enjoy going on and on about that stuff forever--I love arguments like that--
but that's not the predominant feeling here,
and it only gets the community angry.

I realize that now, but it took me a while.

 

 

I am not sure why you included ready golf among your list of “controversial” topics. The rest of them I can agree are legitimately controversial subjects, but there is nothing at all controversial about playing ready golf.

[Louis_Posture]

34 minutes ago, funkyjudge said:

I am not sure why you included ready golf among your list of “controversial” topics. The rest of them I can agree are legitimately controversial subjects, but there is nothing at all controversial about playing ready golf.

Nonsense. At least here in California golf courses are catering to the entitled and obtuse crowd by adopting  4-1/2 hour pace of play policies. In other words, a single group can be holding up five groups behind them but as long as the slow pokes are on pace to finish within 4-1/2 hours they are not obligated to stand aside and wave faster group (s) thru.

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, funkyjudge said:

I am not sure why you included ready golf among your list of “controversial” topics. The rest of them I can agree are legitimately controversial subjects, but there is nothing at all controversial about playing ready golf.

Because he wants to play golf at his own pace and not be held to a time constraint; based on my interpretation of his posts. He is there simply for the enjoyment.  

[funkyjudge]

54 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

Nonsense. At least here in California golf courses are catering to the entitled and obtuse crowd by adopting  4-1/2 hour pace of play policies. In other words, a single group can be holding up five groups behind them but as long as the slow pokes are on pace to finish within 4-1/2 hours they are not obligated to stand aside and wave faster group (s) thru.

You certainly misread my response. What I am saying is that playing ready golf should not be controversial because everyone should be playing ready golf. That is why at the vast majority of the courses that I play (and I play at lots of courses, both public and private, across many states and in the UK) have it printed on their scorecards “play ready golf” or “golfers should play ready golf at all times”.

Like you, I think that playing at a 4:30 pace for 18 holes is actually too slow under most conditions and on most golf courses.

Edited Friday at 11:28 PM by funkyjudge

[Josh Parker]

54 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

Nonsense. At least here in California golf courses are catering to the entitled and obtuse crowd by adopting  4-1/2 hour pace of play policies. In other words, a single group can be holding up five groups behind them but as long as the slow pokes are on pace to finish within 4-1/2 hours they are not obligated to stand aside and wave faster group (s) thru.

If you have seen his previous post, he wants to play at whatever pace he wants to. 

[funkyjudge]

11 minutes ago, Josh Parker said:

If you have seen his previous post, he wants to play at whatever pace he wants to. 

Clearly, you are not referring to me!  Nothing could be further from the truth.

[Josh Parker]

3 minutes ago, funkyjudge said:

Clearly, you are not referring to me!  Nothing could be further from the truth.

No sir! RetiredBoomer has mentioned multiple times he's not a super big fan of ready golf. 

[Louis_Posture]

1 hour ago, Josh Parker said:

No sir! RetiredBoomer has mentioned multiple times he's not a super big fan of ready golf. 

Well, if there is a hole or more open in front of him he should step aside and wave thru any group (s) that are waiting. That's been proper golf etiquette for more than 100 years.

[GolfSpy_APH]

Definitely not on the topic of the the OP, but if people are playing on pace I have no issues there being a little delay. Most courses here it is hard to play through just with how tee boxes and setup is. It sucks and is annoying, but if they are playing close to a 4 hour pace then I am obviously playing too fast, not them playing too slow. 

Also checked in with a colleague of mine in SC and he has said that a 4.5 hour round is fast, most are a lot closer 5 plus. Which 100% agree is too slow, but seems more common now than before... maybe if people were properly fit and took a few lessons they could play faster because they had the proper clubs in their hands  

[Josh Parker]

3 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Which 100% agree is too slow, but seems more common now than before... maybe if people were properly fit and took a few lessons they could play faster because they had the proper clubs in their hands  

And.......

back to the regularly scheduled thread.