Stronger Lofts - is this a Good or Bad Thing

[cnosil]

There's a certain irony to that, but perhaps not the one you think.  
Personally, when Tom Wishon says "it's still a dishonest business practice to keep lowering lofts and justify it as being needed" I think I'll take him at his word.

Has Wishon kept his lofts the same since he started making clubs? If he lowered lofts, did he say I am lowering the lofts but you don’t need new clubs I just changed the numbers on the bottom?

[Moose4282]

30 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I was responding only to the claim that @Moose4282 made:

which is simply not accurate.  I took the "number stamped on the bottom" completely out of my response in order to make it clear that his claim was inaccurate.  As far as how the new irons will influence the gaps at the short end of the bag, that's a question I have too, I don't have a ready answer.  That's something to work through, assuming I like the new clubs well enough to keep them in play.

Still not understanding what im saying... 

lets say a golf club company produces a new prototype iron. There are no names words anything its just blank. We measure that club to have 38 degrees of loft. Its still going to launch and fly the same no matter WHAT number we assign to that club. Why should launch determine the number thats assigned? As mentioned, different players will launch It differently... the static loft is one of the only things that remain constant. The race for sales has created this mess because we know a 36 degree club is going to go further. Naive customers hit them on a launch monitor and assume they are better. Im with wishon on this one too.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Moose4282

[DaveP043]

2 minutes ago, Moose4282 said:

Still not understanding what im saying... 

lets say a golf club company produces a new prototype iron. There are no names words anything its just blank. We measure that club to have 38 degrees of loft. Its still going to launch and fly the same no matter WHAT number we assign to that club. Why should launch determine the number thats assigned? As mentioned, different players will launch It differently... the static loft is one of the only things that remain constant. The race for sales has created this mess.

Fair enough, changing the label on a specific club won't change a thing.  I just don't have the same disdain for marketing that many people do.  On a forum like this one, where actual knowledge of club tech is much higher than in the general public, marketing claims are often evaluated.  I don't think the gradual changes in lofts are a particularly heinous thing, as long as we consumers educate ourselves appropriately.  And for those who don't, they get what they deserve.

[Middler]

15 hours ago, Retrogolfer36 said:

Yeah but if they didn't change the lofts, everyone would be hitting skyballs that balloon.
What's wrong with hitting the ball longer if the trajectory is no higher?
Again, if you think left jacking is a scam, just buy blades or keep your old clubs. It seems pretty simple to me.
I like hitting the ball longer, shooting lower scores and having more fun.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

Against my better judgement...

Though new tech irons may launch higher, that’s a BS argument for changing the numbers stamped on the sole for a given loft. For example you’re new TM SIM Max OS “5” iron has a 20* loft instead of a more traditional 27*. Does your Max OS “7” iron with a 27* loft “balloon” - is it unusable? Now apply that to every iron in the set. Almost every  loft you say would balloon is in the set, it just has the wrong number stamped on the sole for marketing purposes.

You’re not hitting your Max OS “7” iron any farther, it’s a mismarked “5” iron. And guess what, if you take any Max OS iron and a P7TW with the same loft, they’ll go about the same distance when you hit them both square (forgiveness is a different attribute). That’s been shown on YouTube a hundred times.

More distance only matters with your driver. There was no reason to change the loft vs club numbers other than appealing to the egos to sell new clubs to lots of unwitting buyers. And it worked...

[RickyBobby_PR]

It’s nothing new. Were any of the anti loft jacking guys complaint 20 years ago?

[DaveP043]

8 minutes ago, Middler said:

You’re not hitting your Max OS “7” iron any farther, it’s a mismarked “5” iron.

I find it interesting that people on each side of the argument are being caught up with the number on the bottom.  One one side, we have those who say "This 7 iron goes a lot further than my old one, I want it".  On the other side, we have people who respond "That's no 7 iron, the loft is way too strong, its a 5-iron".  BOTH of them are focused on the number.  This type of argument is just as valid as arguing about differences in the stiffness labels on different shafts.  There are no standard lofts for specific irons, just exactly as there are no standard references for shaft stiffness.

[cnosil]

You’re not hitting your Max OS “7” iron any farther, it’s a mismarked “5” iron.

If you want to go “traditional” it could be stated your “5” is an incorrectly marked 4 or 3. It all depends on what era you consider traditional.

[ZenGolfer]

10 minutes ago, Middler said:

Against my better judgement...

Though new tech irons may launch higher, that’s a BS argument for changing the numbers stamped on the sole for a given loft. For example you’re new TM SIM Max OS “5” iron has a 20* loft instead of a more traditional 27*. Does your Max OS “7” iron with a 27* loft “balloon” - is it unusable? Now apply that to every iron in the set. Almost every  loft you say would balloon is in the set, it just has the wrong number stamped on the sole for marketing purposes.

You’re not hitting your Max OS “7” iron any farther, it’s a mismarked “5” iron. And guess what, if you take any Max OS iron and a P7TW with the same loft, they’ll go about the same distance when you hit them both square (forgiveness is a different attribute). That’s been shown on YouTube a hundred times.

More distance only matters with your driver. There was no reason to change the loft vs club numbers other than appealing to the egos to sell new clubs to lots of unwitting buyers. And it worked...

You know, I was pretty much with you until you said distance only matters with the driver.  Distances matters with all clubs because it makes long par 4 and par 5 reachable and it makes long par 3s easier.  It used to be that I had to hit driver if I were on a 180-yard par 3, now I can hit 5-iron.

Im sorry but to say that distance only matters with the driver is just wrong.

I keep hearing people say things like consumers are being duped by jacked lofts.  How are they being, "duped"?  We all know that iron lofts have gotten stronger, thats no secret.  I know that my Atomic have strong lofts, to the point where I dont really even need anything longer than the 7-iron.  So what?  If it helps me hit the ball farther, shoot lower scores and enjoy the game more, whats wrong with that?  Like I said, its a slippery slope when you try to stand on the soapbox of tradition when you rage against jacked lofts, meanwhile you have metal headed woods with graphite shafts, irons with modern steel or graphite shafts, a high MOI mallet putter and a 5-piece golf ball.

I used to be in the anti loft jacking crowd but Ive come to realize that its kind of silly.

[ZenGolfer]

9 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

It’s nothing new. Were any of the anti loft jacking guys complaint 20 years ago?

Thank you.  Heck, my old pyratone shafted Spaldings have a, "10-iron" that has 50 degrees of loft and if you really want to die on the hill of tradition, you could rage about how people nowdays are cheating with their high-lofted wedges.  *old man voice* Back in my day, we had nothing more than a rut iron and we were happy with it. LOL (Im just joking with you guys, btw)

[ZenGolfer]

10 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I find it interesting that people on each side of the argument are being caught up with the number on the bottom.  One one side, we have those who say "This 7 iron goes a lot further than my old one, I want it".  On the other side, we have people who respond "That's no 7 iron, the loft is way too strong, its a 5-iron".  BOTH of them are focused on the number.  This type of argument is just as valid as arguing about differences in the stiffness labels on different shafts.  There are no standard lofts for specific irons, just exactly as there are no standard references for shaft stiffness.

Im with you on that.  IMO, the number on the bottom of the clubs really only matters how it relates to the other clubs in the set.  To me, in my Atomic set, the 7-iron is really a 6-iron and the AW is really a PW but who cares?  All that really matters is how far you hit each club and now all those clubs fit into a set that will help you play your best golf.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Pingistheanser

[NRJyzr]

2 hours ago, cnosil said:

Has Wishon kept his lofts the same since he started making clubs? If he lowered lofts, did he say I am lowering the lofts but you don’t need new clubs I just changed the numbers on the bottom?

Bit of a disingenuous question.  LOL

He's been pretty up front in saying his newer design have stronger lofts, and they've had to do this because Distance Sells.

[NRJyzr]

37 minutes ago, cnosil said:

 

If you want to go “traditional” it could be stated your “5” is an incorrectly marked 4 or 3. It all depends on what era you consider traditional.

 

I find it funny in various threads when younger golfers refer to traditional lofts, and they're talking about some set that has a 46* PW.  I guess I'm old.  

Ironically, I'm a relative late-comer, wasn't playing golf when the old 20/30/50 lofts of 1980 were The Thing.  LOL

[cnosil]

2 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

Bit of a disingenuous question.  LOL

He's been pretty up front in saying his newer design have stronger lofts, and they've had to do this because Distance Sells.

It was....   Most people seek more distance so manufacturers do what it takes to give them more distance.  If you don't deloft,  you risk losing business to someone who does.    

Ultimately I know how far I hit a club with a particular number on the bottom and I have set up my numbers to give me appropriate gapping.  

[NRJyzr]

44 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

It’s nothing new. Were any of the anti loft jacking guys complaint 20 years ago?

weird  

Nice to see my friend's research is still alive and well.  It's even better, though; the 1930s lofts used to be included.  1 iron was 20*, 9 iron was 52*, and the Pitching Iron hadn't yet made its appearance.

And to answer your question, yes, I thought 46* PW and 26* 5 irons were weird, back in 1999 and 2000.   

[Kenny B]

10 hours ago, Moose4282 said:

“Now, who wouldn't want to hit their 9i into a green instead of their 7i??”

Except that 9 iron has the loft stronger than an 8 iron... so are you REALLY hitting a 9 iron? Or are you hitting a 7 iron disguised as a 9? 

id love to see loft stamped on the bottom- what will it hurt?? it will never happen... 

I AM hitting a 9i.  It's MY 9i, and that's all that matters to me. A 9i loft has progressed from 48-50º when it was called a niblick to about 33-35º for SGI clubs of today.  I not sure what you REALLY think is a 9i, and I don't really care.

[NRJyzr]

13 minutes ago, cnosil said:

It was....   Most people seek more distance so manufacturers do what it takes to give them more distance.  If you don't deloft,  you risk losing business to someone who does.    

Ultimately I know how far I hit a club with a particular number on the bottom and I have set up my numbers to give me appropriate gapping.  

When lofts just started to get stronger (the half dozen years ago or so edition, anyway), I found TM's approach to actually be somewhat refreshing.  A lot of companies were keeping the 3 iron around 20*, but squeezing everything down.  TM seemed to be at the front of moving the 3 iron to what had been a 2 iron loft, and before that, a 1 iron loft.  

Point being, you didn't have 9 clubs covering the range of lofts that formerly had 8 clubs.  

Edited April 29, 2020 by NRJyzr

[Middler]

3 hours ago, Pingistheanser said:

You know, I was pretty much with you until you said distance only matters with the driver.  Distances matters with all clubs because it makes long par 4 and par 5 reachable and it makes long par 3s easier.  It used to be that I had to hit driver if I were on a 180-yard par 3, now I can hit 5-iron.

Im sorry but to say that distance only matters with the driver is just wrong.

I keep hearing people say things like consumers are being duped by jacked lofts.  How are they being, "duped"?  We all know that iron lofts have gotten stronger, thats no secret.  I know that my Atomic have strong lofts, to the point where I dont really even need anything longer than the 7-iron.  So what?  If it helps me hit the ball farther, shoot lower scores and enjoy the game more, whats wrong with that?  Like I said, its a slippery slope when you try to stand on the soapbox of tradition when you rage against jacked lofts, meanwhile you have metal headed woods with graphite shafts, irons with modern steel or graphite shafts, a high MOI mallet putter and a 5-piece golf ball.

I used to be in the anti loft jacking crowd but Ive come to realize that its kind of silly.

The driver is the only club where MORE distance matters.

Using your example above, whatever you can now reach with your 5 iron, you could reach with that exact same club if a “3” was stamped on the sole. And the loft of your 5 iron is probably about the same as a traditional 3 iron was.

Sure many here are aware of what lofts they’re buying, and they like it. But you’re kidding yourself if you don’t know many players don’t know what lofts their irons are when buying or after. Plenty of guys have stood in a hitting booth and said ‘Gee this Max OS 6 iron goes a lot further than the P7TW - I think I’ll buy the Max OS.’ Why else would manufacturers be loft jacking, it isn’t ballooning. I see you’re not claiming that anymore, that’s progress.

No it doesn’t matter as long as each of us is happy with our irons, and it is kind of silly. The median age of those playing golf is rising, and old guys like to be able to say I still hit my 7 iron XX yards - the marketing guys know what people will buy. 

If they keep it up one day your 9 iron will have a 28* loft and we’ll have who knows how many specialty wedges, way more than 4. Irons will start at 6 or 7. Is that good with you? At some point they’ll have to stop further loft jacking as even the people who are going along with it now will say “wait a minute...”

[RickyBobby_PR]

Distance matters with every club. How the distance is used is what changes. The driver and fw are used to hit the ball the farthest you can. 
 

Distance with irons is two fold. Everyone wants to hit them as far as they can, but the difference between irons and woods is consistent distance with irons. When you pull a 7i for example as your 150 club on a full length swing you want that 7i to go 150 every time and not 150 one time and next time it’s 140 or 160. Yes if you mishit it it will go shorter but if you hit in the same spot twice you want the same result. 

[Kenny B]

22 minutes ago, Middler said:

The driver is the only club where distance matters.

Using your example above, whatever you can now reach with your 5 iron, you could reach with that exact same club if a “3” was stamped on the sole. And the loft of your 5 iron is probably about the same as a traditional 3 iron was.

Sure many here are aware of what lofts they’re buying, and they like it. But you’re kidding yourself if you don’t know many players don’t know what lofts their irons are when buying or after. Plenty of guys have stood in a hitting booth and said ‘Gee this Max OS 6 iron goes a lot further than the P7TW - I think I’ll buy the Max OS.’ Why else would manufacturers be loft jacking, it isn’t ballooning. I see you’re not claiming that anymore, that’s progress.

No it doesn’t matter as long as each of us is happy with our irons, and it is kind of silly. The median age of those playing golf is rising, and old guys like to be able to say I still hit my 7 iron XX yards - the marketing guys know what people will buy. 

If they keep it up one day your 9 iron will have a 28* loft and we’ll have who knows how many specialty wedges, way more than 4. Irons will start at 6 or 7. Is that good with you? At some point they’ll have to stop further loft jacking as even the people who are going along with it now will say “wait a minute...”

First, there is no such thing as a "traditional" 3i as shown in the charts above.  

Second, yes I could probably reach a green with with your "traditional" 3i if I could reach it with my 5i, but that 3i would not stop as quickly as my higher launched 5i.

Third, I don't have a 5i because, as you say, my set starts with a 6i which by the way has the same 24º loft as your "traditional" 3i in the chart above for the 1960-70s.  

Fourth, the loft issue will slowly die off when OEMs can no longer give players a longer, higher launching club that is accurate.  The OEMs make irons for players with all skill levels and abilities.  If you don't like the "loft jacking" irons, don't play them.  However, if you have any irons made in the last few years, they are "loft jacked" from "traditional" irons pre-1980's.  

Lastly, IMO people who complain about "loft jacking" have experienced, on the course, someone with similar abilities who hit a 5i when they had to hit a 3i.

AND yes!!  This old guy likes saying "I hit my 7 iron XX yards", and YES this whole discussion is kind of silly.  

[Middler]

15 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Distance matters with every club. How the distance is used is what changes. The driver and fw are used to hit the ball the farthest you can. 
 

Distance with irons is two fold. Everyone wants to hit them as far as they can, but the difference between irons and woods is consistent distance with irons. When you pull a 7i for example as your 150 club on a full length swing you want that 7i to go 150 every time and not 150 one time and next time it’s 140 or 160. Yes if you mishit it it will go shorter but if you hit in the same spot twice you want the same result. 

You're right - I meant the driver is the only club where MORE distance matters. Thanks.

[RickyBobby_PR]

8 minutes ago, Middler said:

You're right - I meant the driver is the only club where MORE distance matters. Thanks.

But is that the case. It’s a semantics thing to an extent but I don’t know many people that wouldn’t mind “more” distance from their irons. I would like to get another 5-10 yards extra. 

[Moose4282]

4 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

It’s nothing new. Were any of the anti loft jacking guys complaint 20 years ago?

Looking at that, lofts have dropped as much or more (4-5 degrees) than the last 50 years combined...getting to the point every year a drop in loft. 

[FrogginBullfish]

I truly hope that these "discussions" about "jacked lofts" die out sooner than later. They're so exhausting and there's literally nothing productive coming out of any of them.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using MyGolfSpy mobile app

[Moose4282]

4 hours ago, Pingistheanser said:

You know, I was pretty much with you until you said distance only matters with the driver.  Distances matters with all clubs because it makes long par 4 and par 5 reachable and it makes long par 3s easier.  It used to be that I had to hit driver if I were on a 180-yard par 3, now I can hit 5-iron.

Im sorry but to say that distance only matters with the driver is just wrong.

I keep hearing people say things like consumers are being duped by jacked lofts.  How are they being, "duped"?  We all know that iron lofts have gotten stronger, thats no secret.  I know that my Atomic have strong lofts, to the point where I dont really even need anything longer than the 7-iron.  So what?  If it helps me hit the ball farther, shoot lower scores and enjoy the game more, whats wrong with that?  Like I said, its a slippery slope when you try to stand on the soapbox of tradition when you rage against jacked lofts, meanwhile you have metal headed woods with graphite shafts, irons with modern steel or graphite shafts, a high MOI mallet putter and a 5-piece golf ball.

I used to be in the anti loft jacking crowd but Ive come to realize that its kind of silly.

Play what you want but you aren't hitting it further. And if you are its because of you and not the equipment.

[Moose4282]

3 hours ago, Kenny B said:

I AM hitting a 9i.  It's MY 9i, and that's all that matters to me. A 9i loft has progressed from 48-50º when it was called a niblick to about 33-35º for SGI clubs of today.  I not sure what you REALLY think is a 9i, and I don't really care.

And there are certainly golfers like you, who just wanna stick their heads in the sand. Nothing wrong with that either.

[THEZIPR23]

23 minutes ago, Moose4282 said:

Play what you want but you aren't hitting it further. And if you are its because of you and not the equipment.

Yep you're right as always.

My p790 PW @ 46* flies 135-138

My Z785 pw @ 45* flies 130-133.

But I'm sure I swing the p790 harder and it has nothing to do with the equipment. 

[Grand Stranded]

38 minutes ago, FrogginBullfish said:

I truly hope that these "discussions" about "jacked lofts" die out sooner than later. They're so exhausting and there's literally nothing productive coming out of any of them.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using MyGolfSpy mobile app
 

...and they’re always started by a guy who’s still playing persimmon woods with a steel shaft or 30 or 40 year old irons. i’m convinced the problem is THEIR ego, not the guy who’s playing the strong lofts. They aren’t concerned about whether I “can hold a green”. They’re angry I reached it with two clubs less than them. I look at his set up and I’m not asking him what club he hit, why would I? He’s the one asking and getting annoyed about the club I pulled, not me. lol.

You want to play higher lofted irons? Fine, I have no problem with that. Most good players do. My clubs weren’t designed for them, they were designed for guys like me, who need that extra oomph, and can now play the same tees as my nephews and others their age because of the help they give me.

At 65 years old, I’ll play whatever clubs I like, as long as they’re legal. Guys like the OP who want to play their steel shafted persimmon drivers are the one’s with the ego problem if you ask me... they consider themselves “purists” and “guardians of the game.” If I could tell guys like him one thing, it would be, “don’t worry about what others buy or play, worry about your own game.”

Edited April 29, 2020 by Grand Stranded

[Dr Strangelove]

I dont think the argument is whether the lofts are OK or not.  Who cares.  This being MGS, at least a subset of folks object to the marketing of the clubs. ie. "Cut the BS, we know the distance increase is just because you strengthened the lofts and lengthened the shafts", not because of the <insert> technology.

[Moose4282]

16 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

Yep you're right as always.

My p790 PW @ 46* flies 135-138

My Z785 pw @ 45* flies 130-133.

But I'm sure I swing the p790 harder and it has nothing to do with the equipment. 

Well if you bring in hot faced irons then ok. Those have their own seperate issues, but my statement was just comparing lofts by similarly designed irons

Edited April 29, 2020 by Moose4282

[Moose4282]

2 minutes ago, Dr Strangelove said:

I dont think the argument is whether the lofts are OK or not.  Who cares.  This being MGS, at least a subset of folks object to the marketing of the clubs. ie. "Cut the BS, we know the distance increase is just because you strengthened the lofts and lengthened the shafts", not because of the <insert> technology.

Bingo