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2013 TaylorMade R1 & RBZ 2 Driver


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#106 mrlongball

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 06:08 AM

TM is the king of marketing. I personally think that this is a smart move on TMs part. Where, aside from the Professionals, would be a great place to see what kind of graphics would fly. the 'OTHER' site and here post some pics of some outlandish graphics and watch the topics explode with rants cheers and jeers. Its funny because that becomes the focus instead of the actual product itself. These images are probably a pic of a proto that was done a while back pics taken for this exact purpose. From my eyes, the images of the RBZ2 and one of the 'R1" look set up, almost too perfect to be pics caught quickly. Are they real? who knows, great conversation starter though.

That said, where do you really go with the R line and RBz line....weights in the RBZ, FCT and a higher COR in the fairways....maybe....faster face....We should find out next week.....

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#107 GolfSpy T

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 07:06 PM

Not Cobra. There has never been a bigger disconnect between message boards and cash registers than this Cobra/Puma thing. Cobra isn't even selling IN to shops. They cant fill pre-books. No one in the biz likes them, or their sales reps, or their CS. Not to mention the product is a complete zero sales wise. This is a chance for Nike and Callaway.


I think Cobra has an opportunity to gain some ground, but I put them more in the same category as Titliest and PING. Basically, they're not trying to directly compete with TaylorMade. Sure they'd like to grow, but they're not wholly interested in becoming the number #1 golf company in the world. Good (in some cases great) products, but not any near-term threat to the empire.

Cobra-PUMA is an interesting case. I *think* they do much better in Europe and Australia. The sales guys who were out at Cobra with me last month mentioned that they can't keep the gear or the apparel on the shelves. On sells the other over there. Here...I think it's growing (slowly), but I can't imagine too many guys in your positon worry about ordering too little of it.

I like what I've seen in the last month from Callaway. It feel like they finally have some positive direction, but...or rather BUT (big huge but)... their balance sheet is still a mess, and before they can really worry about becoming the #1 Golf Company in the World, they need to focus on becoming revenue positive.

If you asked me who had the best chance at making a run at TaylorMade; I'd tell you it's Nike. Granted, there really are only 2 companies that want to take them on anyway, but the VRS Covert looks like a winner (EVERYTHING starts with the driver), and if Rory continues to win, Tiger steps it up a little bit, and the other guys they're signing contribute, they're going to have a huge presence on tour (not just Tiger and some fringe guys). That should translate to retail sales as well.

The other piece...maybe golf is different, but when Nike takes on adidas, Nike wins. Basketball, Soccer, running... History is on Nike's side.

As I said in the Nike article I wrote last week. They'll need a misstep or two from TaylorMade. Is the R1 that? Don't know yet...won't say for sure until I see it, but based on what I have seen, there's a chance it could be.
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#108 R.P. Jacobs II

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 07:54 PM

Though I play a TMaG driver 3FM, and for me, they're great clubs, I'm not married to em & certainly not TMaG. I rotate both with other OEM's clubs.

That being said, if you can separate the right side/emotional OPINION, I hate TMaG because..bla..bla..bla, and like T has often stated, look at their strategies & tactics and how they have gone about "differentiating" themselves, when really, in this day & age, most of the equipment out there is #1, excellent, regardless of yours & my opinion & #2, one driver is not really that different from the next, performance wise, in the right hands & with the proper fitting.

Yet, perception IS REALITY, whether we like it or not(I accept it..lol). And the perception amongst the lion's share of the market place is that TMaG makes the BEST driver. What you & I think doesn't matter. When you're ready to go off on a TMaG rant, repeat that last sentence, and feel free to include or drop my name from it.

No, about the only thing that can stop TMaG is TMaG (Corporate arrogance). And it starts at the top, because those underneath follow the lead dogs in the pack. And I've seen it, both as an employee & as an outside consultant.

I started outa college with IBM in the days of the white shirts, blue suits & burgundy/blue rep tie(minus my beard..lol). I literally had questions answered with, " because we're IBM & we invented it." I was in National Marketing Accts, and after all of the books came out following their fall(I had long left), I was asked if we really said, the often quoted reason why a corporation should by from us, " well Mr. _________, remember one thing & never forget what I'm about to say, no one has EVER been fired for partnering with IBM." Did I really say that? More times than I can remember, and I added the "remember one thing & never forget what I'm about to say"(which was incorporated into that response at corporate sales training..LOL)And I leaned forward when I said it. And I meant every word of it. And it dripped of arrogance.

The only problem was, while I was out saying that to Sears(I was on their acct. team), the cracks had started to grow at IBM. And the leadership kept believing the mantra, "We invented and we own this marketplace, we will prevail." Well, everyone knows the story.

My point is that if TMaG, #1, doesn't buy into all of their press clippings, & #2, continues to try to truly better their last product EVERY time out, they'll be just fine. Will they achieve this?

Probably not. But if the right system is in place & the leadership plays with the focus & intensity that they're in 2nd place & tryin to catch up, then they'll go back, objectively & accurately evaluate the information on hand & make the necessary adjustments for improvement for their next launch.

If they take a page(or chapter..lol) from Apple's playbook, regarding never resting on their laurels, constantly raising the bar & probably the most citical, acknowledgeing mistakes & identifying them(product wise) quickly & making appropriate changes & learning from them, so as to not repeat them, they'll be very hard to catch, much less pass.

Like T, Furu & a few others have said, #1, give 'em a little credit guys, they've defined how this game is played & #2, wait and see what's actually going in the racks. I've met a few of their corporate R&D guys, & they're zealots. That's what ya need. That's critical!! It's up to management & Sr. leadership not to screw that or them up.

I'm not a bettin man, however I've gotta feelin that they're gonna do just fine.

Fairways & Greens 4ever
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What's Inside My Sun Mountain H2N0 Stand Bag:

-TMaG RBZ ST 2 Tour(Breast Cancer Pink Head by WalkerJames) 10.5*, Graphite Design Tour AD 9003 S(74gr)

-Adams Speedline XTD Super LS VST 3FM(Breast Cancer Fill) 15*, RT Tech Midas S(88gr)

-Adams Idea XTD Super LS VST Hybrid 19*, Fubuki AX 350

-Mizzy MP-68(4i-8i),TT DG TI S400, +1/2", +2*

-SCOR 43*,47*,51*,55*,59*, Genious 12 Firm +,  +1/2"

-Scotty Studio Select Fastback Custom 1.5, 35", 350gr HW(Not from the shop, notta Tour Issue/Circle T, just a poor ass retail model B))-Breast Cancer Fill

-Golf Pride Decade Multi-Compound Cord, Mizzy Blue/Black

-Stones Tour B330-S

-Shoes: A bunch, depends on my slacks, lol
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I Am A Very Kind, Compassionate & Understanding Man......

 

Until It Is Time To Cease Being Kind, Compassionate & Understanding....

 

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#109 TWshoot67

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 02:14 AM

WOW a guy goes away for two days and MAN...... all this DRAMA! LOL
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#110 Walkerjames

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 02:36 AM

I have never been happier to be a autobody painter the crown is ugly.
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3 Wood- Taylormade R11(bimatrix prototype S)
3 Hybrid- Ping I20(stock S)
Irons-Taylormade Tour Perferred MC ( C Taper S)
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#111 R.P. Jacobs II

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 05:14 AM

WOW a guy goes away for two days and MAN...... all this DRAMA! LOL

DRAMA?..Nah, the gutter just plugged up & spilled over onto page 7. LOL

Not ta worry, the plumber found the blockage, cleaned the sh*t up and threw it out with the trash & everything's back to normal.

Welcome back....

Hope that ya had a nice Holiday



Fairways & Greens 4ever

What's Inside My Sun Mountain H2N0 Stand Bag:

-TMaG RBZ ST 2 Tour(Breast Cancer Pink Head by WalkerJames) 10.5*, Graphite Design Tour AD 9003 S(74gr)

-Adams Speedline XTD Super LS VST 3FM(Breast Cancer Fill) 15*, RT Tech Midas S(88gr)

-Adams Idea XTD Super LS VST Hybrid 19*, Fubuki AX 350

-Mizzy MP-68(4i-8i),TT DG TI S400, +1/2", +2*

-SCOR 43*,47*,51*,55*,59*, Genious 12 Firm +,  +1/2"

-Scotty Studio Select Fastback Custom 1.5, 35", 350gr HW(Not from the shop, notta Tour Issue/Circle T, just a poor ass retail model B))-Breast Cancer Fill

-Golf Pride Decade Multi-Compound Cord, Mizzy Blue/Black

-Stones Tour B330-S

-Shoes: A bunch, depends on my slacks, lol
__________________________________

 

I Am A Very Kind, Compassionate & Understanding Man......

 

Until It Is Time To Cease Being Kind, Compassionate & Understanding....

 

RP Jacobs II

 


#112 ron holmes

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:59 AM

im sorry but just don't like them but im sure they will still sell well

#113 GolfSpy T

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:40 PM

X and I had a chat yesterday about TaylorMade, the R1, and who stands the best shot at making a run at TaylorMade, but since this thread is about the R1...

I've seen the same pics you guys have. No more no less. I haven't seen any copy of the press release that will eventually come out, nor have I been given any details about what distinguishes the R1 (technically, marketing-ly, or otherwise) from the R11S. All I know is really what we all know...and to an extent what I/we know about plans from Nike and Cobra (essentially the path that OEMs are taking with single-head/multiple-loft drivers).

I think we can assume that TM is going to push the updates to the ASP Compass (greater range, more precision), and we're probably going to hear something about improved aerodynamics, weights closer to the face...stuff like that, but even with all that said, (and while I'm far from certain of it), I feel like...or rather, I suppose I hope, there's a piece missing. There could be something we don't know...haven't heard about yet, etc. that's going to make this release make more sense to me.

I'll spare you the whys (and it's far more complicated than "it's ugly), but it's not adding up for me right now. And if I'm wrong...it's never going to add up.
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#114 GolfSpy WD

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:49 PM

X and I had a chat yesterday about TaylorMade, the R1, and who stands the best shot at making a run at TaylorMade, but since this thread is about the R1...

I've seen the same pics you guys have. No more no less. I haven't seen any copy of the press release that will eventually come out, nor have I been given any details about what distinguishes the R1 (technically, marketing-ly, or otherwise) from the R11S. All I know is really what we all know...and to an extent what I/we know about plans from Nike and Cobra (essentially the path that OEMs are taking with single-head/multiple-loft drivers).

I think we can assume that TM is going to push the updates to the ASP Compass (greater range, more precision), and we're probably going to hear something about improved aerodynamics, weights closer to the face...stuff like that, but even with all that said, (and while I'm far from certain of it), I feel like...or rather, I suppose I hope, there's a piece missing. There could be something we don't know...haven't heard about yet, etc. that's going to make this release make more sense to me.

I'll spare you the whys (and it's far more complicated than "it's ugly), but it's not adding up for me right now. And if I'm wrong...it's never going to add up.


I think TM is punting on the driver this year like they did with the RBZ irons last year and show progress. That way, they can come out with something actually good the next release cycle. From the pics, the hosel adapter looks exactly the same. The only two technology pieces I could see were the compass and what looked like a cavity in the sole near the face. Hopefully, the R1 is a more consistent driver than the R11s, which is a problem I hear from even low handicappers that use it (though sweet spot hits tend to be fantastic).

Could it be that TM didn't expect Nike to come out with something good? I'm actually really looking forward to the release of the Covert.

This release cycle for TM is all about the irons.

#115 Matt Saternus

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:59 PM

I think TM is punting on the driver this year like they did with the RBZ irons last year and show progress. That way, they can come out with something actually good the next release cycle. From the pics, the hosel adapter looks exactly the same. The only two technology pieces I could see were the compass and what looked like a cavity in the sole near the face. Hopefully, the R1 is a more consistent driver than the R11s, which is a problem I hear from even low handicappers that use it (though sweet spot hits tend to be fantastic).

Could it be that TM didn't expect Nike to come out with something good? I'm actually really looking forward to the release of the Covert.

This release cycle for TM is all about the irons.


The problem is that the irons are out already. Golf sales this time of year suck (at least in cold climates). I would imagine that even in warmer climates, people are "waiting for all the new stuff". You need to win the winter/spring to have a big year (at least as far as I can tell) and you can't win those with a driver that you're "punting" on (good term).

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#116 R.P. Jacobs II

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:17 PM

I think TM is punting on the driver this year like they did with the RBZ irons last year and show progress.

Ya know that I respect the hell outa you & your thoughts, however the only reason that I would shy away from this statement(or sentencs.. :rolleyes:)is because TMaG is "The Man" in the driver segment. Hands down, no doubt(If ya do doubt, please read my prior post). I can't see them "puntin" a driver, ever, at least not intentionally.

They are not that, nor have they ever been that in irons. Not that they haven't had nice irons, obviously they have, though they've never had a majority of the market say, with their wallets, "Youda Man."

I'm thinkin what T posted, that there's something there that we're not seeing or hearing, then as Matt said regarding the sales cycle, well, I just think that they've got somethin under wraps.

Though they could probably afford to have a "flop," I just can't see them "writing off" a driver or an introduction. That's just not TMaG, and it sure as hell isn't the R&D zealots(& I mean that as the highest compliment!) that I met. These guys "bring it" every day & that comes from the top.

And please excuse the overuse of emoticans. I just found out how to use them & I'm in that "little kid w/a hammer" phase. It'll pass


But damn, I love that little Mizzy emoticon :P

Fairways & Greens 4ever
:mizuno-small:

What's Inside My Sun Mountain H2N0 Stand Bag:

-TMaG RBZ ST 2 Tour(Breast Cancer Pink Head by WalkerJames) 10.5*, Graphite Design Tour AD 9003 S(74gr)

-Adams Speedline XTD Super LS VST 3FM(Breast Cancer Fill) 15*, RT Tech Midas S(88gr)

-Adams Idea XTD Super LS VST Hybrid 19*, Fubuki AX 350

-Mizzy MP-68(4i-8i),TT DG TI S400, +1/2", +2*

-SCOR 43*,47*,51*,55*,59*, Genious 12 Firm +,  +1/2"

-Scotty Studio Select Fastback Custom 1.5, 35", 350gr HW(Not from the shop, notta Tour Issue/Circle T, just a poor ass retail model B))-Breast Cancer Fill

-Golf Pride Decade Multi-Compound Cord, Mizzy Blue/Black

-Stones Tour B330-S

-Shoes: A bunch, depends on my slacks, lol
__________________________________

 

I Am A Very Kind, Compassionate & Understanding Man......

 

Until It Is Time To Cease Being Kind, Compassionate & Understanding....

 

RP Jacobs II

 


#117 GolfSpy T

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:33 PM

Ya know that I respect the hell outa you & your thoughts, however the only reason that I would shy away from this statement(or sentencs.. :rolleyes:)is because TMaG is "The Man" in the driver segment. Hands down, no doubt(If ya do doubt, please read my prior post). I can't see them "puntin" a driver, ever, at least not intentionally.

They are not that, nor have they ever been that in irons. Not that they haven't had nice irons, obviously they have, though they've never had a majority of the market say, with their wallets, "Youda Man."

I'm thinkin what T posted, that there's something there that we're not seeing or hearing, then as Matt said regarding the sales cycle, well, I just think that they've got somethin under wraps.

Though they could probably afford to have a "flop," I just can't see them "writing off" a driver or an introduction. That's just not TMaG, and it sure as hell isn't the R&D zealots(& I mean that as the highest compliment!) that I met. These guys "bring it" every day & that comes from the top.

And please excuse the overuse of emoticans. I just found out how to use them & I'm in that "little kid w/a hammer" phase. It'll pass


But damn, I love that little Mizzy emoticon :P

Fairways & Greens 4ever
:mizuno-small:


Everything TaylorMade has done thus far is consistent with previous sales/release cycles. Lead with the iron announcement in the fall. The woods... announcements usually come in early December (they likely won't this year).

TaylorMade is a driver before everything else company. As the ball is for Titleist, and the iron is for Mizuno, for TaylorMade, the driver is THE THING. As Richard said, if they punt, it's not going to be on purpose...

A punt would still be better than a fumble.

That said, the R11s, was almost a punt. Not a whiff by any stretch, but certainly a comparatively modest upgrade over the R11 (you can argue that one was just paint, but you can't argue it wasn't a HUGE market mover....it mattered). Last year was the anomaly. The fairway wood was the thing...and they sold lots of RBZ drivers because of it. Relatively small sample set, but...I play in a regular group of 12 guys. So not counting me...that's 11 drivers. 3 of them got replaced by the RBZ this season. These guys play the same drivers for years...and they all switched to the RBZ.

This year, maybe the irons will be the thing. It could be TaylorMade is diversifying...but I still think they want (and really they need) the driver to be #1. The driver sells the rest of the bag like no other club can.

So where does that leave us... one head, multiple-lofts. That could be the significant change that makes the new driver the better driver. If that's the whole of the story, on adjustability alone, TaylorMade drops from #1 to #2 behind Nike. Of course, we'll get into the TaylorMade copied Nike copied Cobra debate, but it's probably where the market is headed, so ultimately that won't matter. What will matter is that TaylorMade's story is the same as Nike...the same as Cobra's...and that's not much of a story.

Given what's already coming, this would be a bad season for TaylorMade to punt. I think there is more to the story. But if I'm wrong, and the market reception for the R1 mirrors the forum reception, expect an early summer correction. The SuperTri, for example, was, IMO, a miss for TaylorMade, but they back-filled with the SuperDeep, and it was all good.

I'm still thinking there could be something we don't know about yet.


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#118 GolfSpy WD

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:54 PM

I'm not sure history can be an indicator of current/future performance. There's also a very long pipeline between research and clubs hitting the market, so it could be they are slow in reacting to Nike/Cobra's super adjustability. However, even with Nike's new club, the driver is maxed out, so unless the Covert is proven to be a fairway machine, chances are most people will still see TM as the #1 driver company and shy away from Nike due to past performance.

My point is it is possible that TM is using the same strategy as they did last year with the RBZ 3-wood where, as T said, other clubs coat tail onto the success of one. This year, I can definitely see the RBDZ irons being the lead club.

This is sort of the Apple strategy where technology is intentionally held onto so only one new big technological innovation (or little thing I guess) is released each year. This keeps the masses believing TM is leading the charge because they always have something new an cool each year. Does anyone really believe TM didn't have the slot idea for their irons last year and didn't hold off on it? I'm pretty sure TM has an answer for Nike, they just don't feel the need to release it yet. Or, they want to release it with plenty of ways to shoot down the Covert.

Either way, Nike will have to spend big this year to even touch on TM's driver sales just based on loyalty and the perception of both companies. Cobra doesn't have a chance to compete with TM.

#119 R.P. Jacobs II

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:03 PM

My point is it is possible that TM is using the same strategy as they did last year with the RBZ 3-wood where, as T said, other clubs coat tail onto the success of one. This year, I can definitely see the RBDZ irons being the lead club.

I'm pretty sure TM has an answer for Nike, they just don't feel the need to release it yet. Or, they want to release it with plenty of ways to shoot down the Covert.

Either way, Nike will have to spend big this year to even touch on TM's driver sales just based on loyalty and the perception of both companies.

Good point WD. Maybe you said it in your first post and I missed it. I'm talking the RBZBladez(Is this even correctly typed?) irons. These look like they could really be game changers, and I'm talkin about the Tours, which won't sell nearly as many as the standard Bladez irons. The Tours are what I'm gonna hit.


And this is the first non-MB(MP-68) or MCB(MP-63)that I'm gonna hit with a truly open mind and a positive expectation. I mean I hit all of the Adams releases from the last two years. I'm not gonna list 'em, however I hit/played every one. And there were some great, not good, but great irons in their line-up.

But they didn't shake me off of my mind set regarding my love of my current irons. And for as much whorin around as I do with my driver & to a lesser degree, my putter, my irons & wedges have been conssistent, though I've played the last 6 weeks with the Staff 59s, which to my eye, are very similar to my old 33s, more so than the 68s.

This TMaG iron has me intrigued. And since TMaG owns drivers, if these irons go flyin off of the shelves, I gotta believe that if the guy's in the market for a driver or FM, well, he's gonna look like a frickin TMaG Staffer when he leaves the store..lol

And great point regarding Nike, though they do have the coin to throw around if the decide to.

Good post WD


Fairways & Greens 4ever
:mizuno-small:

What's Inside My Sun Mountain H2N0 Stand Bag:

-TMaG RBZ ST 2 Tour(Breast Cancer Pink Head by WalkerJames) 10.5*, Graphite Design Tour AD 9003 S(74gr)

-Adams Speedline XTD Super LS VST 3FM(Breast Cancer Fill) 15*, RT Tech Midas S(88gr)

-Adams Idea XTD Super LS VST Hybrid 19*, Fubuki AX 350

-Mizzy MP-68(4i-8i),TT DG TI S400, +1/2", +2*

-SCOR 43*,47*,51*,55*,59*, Genious 12 Firm +,  +1/2"

-Scotty Studio Select Fastback Custom 1.5, 35", 350gr HW(Not from the shop, notta Tour Issue/Circle T, just a poor ass retail model B))-Breast Cancer Fill

-Golf Pride Decade Multi-Compound Cord, Mizzy Blue/Black

-Stones Tour B330-S

-Shoes: A bunch, depends on my slacks, lol
__________________________________

 

I Am A Very Kind, Compassionate & Understanding Man......

 

Until It Is Time To Cease Being Kind, Compassionate & Understanding....

 

RP Jacobs II

 


#120 Super Tuna

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:22 PM

This year, maybe the irons will be the thing. It could be TaylorMade is diversifying...but I still think they want (and really they need) the driver to be #1. The driver sells the rest of the bag like no other club can.


Is it really diversifying though? They took the #1 irons in golf thing from Callaway early last year and didn't give it up this year. If I'm TM, I'm hoping the irons are a hit. With them being a big seller they lock down #1 Driver, #1 Fairway, #1 Hybrids (due to Adams) and #1 iron. I'd say that's pretty good. I don't have the datatech numbers at the moment but I can't imagine they're even close to Titleist for wedges, putters or balls. While they might like to be, I imagine making sure Nike/Callaway aren't a threat is more important then trying to kick Titleist off their dominance. At least for the time being anyways.
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