Forged vs Cast

[GolfSpy WD]

Callaway keeps promoting their drivers as forged composite, so I became curious as to what forged means for drivers.

 

Here's an article from Harrison's website:

 

Titanium Driver: Forged vs. Cast

 

A commonly asked question is why is there such a large disparity in price between two similar looking titanium heads? Excluding mark up and promotional expenses, the best way to separate the two is by comparing how they are made. There are two popular methods used to make titanium driver heads: forged vs. cast.

 

Forging/Stamping

The forged head derives its name sake from the use of a 500 ton press in its production process. For all fairness, the forged Ti heads are at best mid-labeled. It was actually made by cutting and stamping a sheet of titanium sheet into several differently parts of the driver, and then welds them together with an Arc welder. The most common construction is a 4-piece body, under which the driver head is made up of the crown, sole plate, face and hosel. The face could be made of Beta Ti or 6-4 Ti, the crown 6-4 Ti, and the sole grade 9 Ti. Grade 9 Ti is usually used because it is softer and easier to form the intricacies that are common with a typical sole plate design.

 

The principle benefit of the stamping process is low production cost. The disadvantages are limited design complexity, poor reproducibility and dimensional accuracy. In addition, with the massive amount of weld line inside the club head, perimeter weighting is impossible to nail down. Its center of gravity is more or less a case of probability than predictability.

 

Investment Casting

The cast Ti driver usually has a 2-piece body. The main body and the club face. The main body is made out of 6-4 Ti and the club face could be either Beta Ti or 6-4 Ti. The face is attached to the body by either an Arc weld or Plasma weld process. The preferred method is Plasma welding as it is much hotter than Arc weld. It creates better bound and a thinner weld line. The titanium investment casting is a lost wax process, not unlike its counter-part in casting stainless steel parts. However, it requires a melting furnace and a separate vacuum casting furnace. These furnaces and related factory fixtures require substantial capital investment.

 

The benefits of investment casting are thinner wall thickness, complex geometry, reproducibility and dimensional accuracy. The main disadvantage is that its production cost is nearly twice that of the stamping process. Nearly all top of the line name brand titanium drivers are made with the investment casting process for its consistency and accuracy. The great majority of the component Ti driver heads are stamped.

 

I found it interesting that forged vs cast is opposite for drivers where cast is more expensive and better. Next thing I'll look up is what the difference is between beta Ti, 6-4 Ti, and 9 Ti in regards to feel and forgiveness.

 

So does anyone know, does "forged" actually make the Razr inferior to other drivers? I'm more willing to believe the composite material they use is light weight and easier to forge to specs, but why advertise it as forged when a five minute google search shows casting is better?

[RoverRick]

So does anyone know, does "forged" actually make the Razr inferior to other drivers?

 

 

I do not have mine yet, I hope it shipped today,but I have read just about everything on the internet about the Razr Fit, and Inferior was not a word used to discribe the Razr Fit. I do not know if I would argue with the general statement but I do not think that applies to the Razr. Like I said, i do not have mine yet, but my FT9 is capable of taking on any competitor right now, FT9 vs R11s is a no brainer in my opinion.

[Shambles]

That quote is probably an old article. Arc welding is no longer popular because the temperature it gives is too low and good welding takes longer and does give bigger beads. Popular these days is the Ti or Mig welding, either of which can give much higher temperatures that make welding faster with less beading. They are also less bulky to use, similar to drawing with a pencil.

 

Still and all, I personally prefer cast because less of the human element is involved and therefore the sample is more likely to be more alike to the purchase.

 

 

Shambles

[GolfSpy WD]

That quote is probably an old article. Arc welding is no longer popular because the temperature it gives is too low and good welding takes longer and does give bigger beads. Popular these days is the Ti or Mig welding, either of which can give much higher temperatures that make welding faster with less beading. They are also less bulky to use, similar to drawing with a pencil.

 

Still and all, I personally prefer cast because less of the human element is involved and therefore the sample is more likely to be more alike to the purchase.

 

 

Shambles

 

I'm not sure the article is that old. You hear about Plasma welding quite a bit in driver press releases. I hadn't heard of metal inert gas or tungsten inert gas welding before, so I looked them up. It sounds like plasma is the most expensive and precise, followed by Tig, followed by Mig.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_metal_arc_welding

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_tungsten_arc_welding

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_arc_welding

 

This was written by Hireko last year to promote their Power Play Adrenaline driver where they talk about saving 7g by using plasma welding (no idea how much of a performance difference that translates to): http://support.hirekogolf.com/2011/02/hireko-golf-announces-new-power-play-system-q-adrenaline-driver/

 

In addition, plasma welding can help eliminate up to 7g of weight in a 460cc titanium driver,” states Summitt. “When manufacturers are looking for every possible gram of weight to utilize elsewhere, 7g is like the winning the lottery. What this does is allow all of this added weight to be repositioned deep within the Power Play System Q Adrenaline driver so one can hit the ball longer and straighter. The result is the same high performance but at a fraction of the cost of the more expensive cast titanium heads on the market.

 

So their claim is the benefit from casting really comes from plasma welding. I'm willing to bet Callaway does use plasma welding, I'm just wondering how much of a difference there is between cast and forged, though it very well may be the composite material is easier to forge cannot be cast.

 

Here are some quotes from the Razr Hawk press release:

 

Forged Composite is one-third the density of titanium, features a greater load carrying capacity per unit mass in bending, and provides Callaway engineers with a level of precision that was previously unachievable.

 

... the ability to precisely forge the carbon material to within one-thousandth of an inch yielded aerodynamic shaping that greatly reduced energy lost to drag during a golfer's downswing.

[Shambles]

Not to be picky or argumentative, the reference to arc welding just rubs me wrong. Mig and Tig have been the porn dreams of metal workers for far too long and the plasma cutter is something I would have classified as a luxury to be used only in the heaviest work where seriously high volumes of metal need cutting, more likely by robots or mounted on dollies. Too much talent is needed to cut a steady line. For the tiny heads used in Golf, Mig and Tig are probably a necessity these days and they really don't cost as much as they did 3 years ago because the demand for them has been tremendous. However, even in working car bodies, a fair amount of talent with the steady hands of an artist is needed.

 

Considerations of this sort are what lead me to rely more on machine produced products that have less human intervention. Far less variation and all the mistakes are made in setting the machine up. The rest is maintenance and quality control of the materials involved. Trust me, a machine is much easier to maintain than an artist working overtime.

 

I'm perfectly willing to spend money on an artist if I can see and handle his product but if it's a matter of mass production, I'll go with machine made.

 

 

Shambles

[RoverRick]

Mig, Tig, and SMA are very common types of welding, I have the equipment I design welded together and am a welder myself, well, I can weld. I am an engineer not a welder. I just took up welding when it occurred to me that I was having to pay someone to weld up a repair while I was standing there watching them and telling them what to do. So I learned to weld myself. It was easier and cheaper. None of these types of welding are done on golf clubs. The plasma welding is the only welding done on golf clubs. The others use a filler metal in the form of a rod or wire that is melted and fused to the two pieces of steal. This would add weight. The weight of the filler metal would exceed the weight of the head of the golf club. Plasma welding is like spot welding in the it fuses the metal together without adding a filler metal.

 

I would say that who ever wrote that about the casting being better than forged has been watching too many TMag commercials. Because I think it is pure BS. The Callaway head has several parts that are stamped out of various different materials and are then Plasma welded together. They can mix different materials and weld them together but for casting you only have one type of material for the body and another type for the face that are welded together. Castings are going to have to be thicker than forgings.

 

Also, castings are more susceptible to impurites and irregularites than the forgings.

 

Back in ancient times when I was in sales, one of my customers is the supplier to Ping of the wax that they use, could be used, in making their irons and here is how the process works or worked 15 years ago. I saw a set of 6 Ping Eye 2 7 iron heads in one block. It was pretty cool because I played Ping Eye 2's at the time. (Still some of the best clubs ever.)

 

A block of steel is machined out to where it is the negative ot say 6 identical clubs. This is made in two parts and when fit a number of clubs will fit inside. There are tubes, for lack of a better term, that allows a liquid to flow through the block so that there are no voids. This mould is then filled with a dust free wax and cooled. Now we have a block of wax that is 6 7irons all hooked together with these tubes. Now, they take these wax golf clubs and put them into a wet sand or maybe a ceramic like material and allow it to set up (48 hours). Then once this sand has set up it becomes hard. This is called the investment. They then poor molten stainless steel into the investment. This causes the wax to melt and it leaves the mould in the form of smoke. So the wax is lost. Hence the term lost wax method. Then the investment and steel inside is allowed to cool. Once this has happened the investment is broken and you have the product in this case, 6 7 iron heads all together in one block. These are then cut apart and finished on a grinder. Ping casts the grooves into the face rather than machining them. This may be the reason that the grooves on my Ping Eye 2 clubs look just like they did in 1984 when they were made.

 

So that is how irons are cast, or were cast. I tend to think that they are still done that way. Casting has been around for 5,000 years. It has never been more precise than forging. Forging in its original form was heating steel in a fire and then beating it with a hammer. It took much more time but it was more precise. Samurai swords were beat out with a hammer and they are pretty precise.

 

Every manufacturer says his method is the best. I would have to disagree with this guy that casting is better than forging.

[GolfSpy WD]

Not to be picky or argumentative, the reference to arc welding just rubs me wrong. Mig and Tig have been the porn dreams of metal workers for far too long and the plasma cutter is something I would have classified as a luxury to be used only in the heaviest work where seriously high volumes of metal need cutting, more likely by robots or mounted on dollies. Too much talent is needed to cut a steady line. For the tiny heads used in Golf, Mig and Tig are probably a necessity these days and they really don't cost as much as they did 3 years ago because the demand for them has been tremendous

 

The entire point of this thread is just to discuss these techniques, sort of like we did with metallurgy of fairways in another thread. It's fun for me and I'm by no means an expert. I'm mainly looking to learn. The reason I am inclined to believe most top end clubs use plasma welding is because it is touted very highly by clubs such as Maltby BM3 driver and Hireko's Power Point Adrenaline. It's a question of does the price of a club justify the cost of production.

 

A block of steel is machined out to where it is the negative ot say 6 identical clubs. This is made in two parts and when fit a number of clubs will fit inside. There are tubes, for lack of a better term, that allows a liquid to flow through the block so that there are no voids. This mould is then filled with a dust free wax and cooled. Now we have a block of wax that is 6 7irons all hooked together with these tubes. Now, they take these wax golf clubs and put them into a wet sand or maybe a ceramic like material and allow it to set up (48 hours). Then once this sand has set up it becomes hard. This is called the investment. They then poor molten stainless steel into the investment. This causes the wax to melt and it leaves the mould in the form of smoke. So the wax is lost. Hence the term lost wax method. Then the investment and steel inside is allowed to cool. Once this has happened the investment is broken and you have the product in this case, 6 7 iron heads all together in one block. These are then cut apart and finished on a grinder. Ping casts the grooves into the face rather than machining them. This may be the reason that the grooves on my Ping Eye 2 clubs look just like they did in 1984 when they were made.

 

So that is how irons are cast, or were cast. I tend to think that they are still done that way. Casting has been around for 5,000 years. It has never been more precise than forging. Forging in its original form was heating steel in a fire and then beating it with a hammer. It took much more time but it was more precise. Samurai swords were beat out with a hammer and they are pretty precise.

 

Every manufacturer says his method is the best. I would have to disagree with this guy that casting is better than forging.

 

From what I've read, casting is still done with a lost wax process for both irons and woods. I haven't looked into purity differences between the two techniques, but now I'm curious about that too.

[Shambles]

Plasma welding sounds attractive, mig and tig, I believe, can change wires for the needed material in much the same way we use different rods for mild steel or stainless steel. I also have an arc welder but have not yet found the loose money to be able to mess around with either mig or tig. I doubt you can join two pieces of metal, like or dissimilar, and do so without a bead. However, a plasma welder would be attractive for fine work, and continues to be the impossible wish for me.

 

My discomfort is in the participation of the human element. Artistic work belongs to man but rote work is much better relegated to machines. I doubt a man's hands can be entirely eliminated from the production of our toys, but I would still place greater reliance for repeatable quality in large quantity by minimizing man's role. Men get tired and inattentive when pushed too hard even if they make heroic effort.

 

Forge or cast, they are just processes. I'm not convinced they need necessarily vary all that much other than in material requirements. I just cast my vote for whichever can produce a large amount of product with less human involvement.

 

 

Shambles

[GolfSpy WD]

I'm sure it's not cheap, but there are methods of automating plasma welding. Here's an article I found: http://weldingdesign.com/processes/news/plasma-welding-advantages-0608/

 

Since the system is automated, the process requires only one operator who does not have to be a skilled welder. In fact, the best results have been obtained with operators having very little welding experience but a general background in mechanics and electricity.

 

As for forged vs cast, I still need to look it up, but if they're equal, then everyone would forge their drivers. Casting cost nearly twice as much as forging. Since these big companies aren't in the business of throwing away money, there must be a noticeable advantage in quality control.

[RoverRick]

Here is the deal, you can not forge the shape of a driver head like say Ping's or TM's. And you cannot cast composite materials by puring it into a mould. So you are comparing apples and orange and saying that the manufacturers are doing for cost reasons or one is better than the other, The true arguement is if composites are better than metal. Callaway is the only one doing composites, I think, Titleist did it with the 909D Comp but abandon that idea with 910D and there has been no tears but Callaway has been doing this for many years, and according to the Ultimate Review listed today, this composite is maybe the best driver so far.

[GolfSpy WD]

Here is the deal, you can not forge the shape of a driver head like say Ping's or TM's. And you cannot cast composite materials by puring it into a mould. So you are comparing apples and orange and saying that the manufacturers are doing for cost reasons or one is better than the other, The true arguement is if composites are better than metal. Callaway is the only one doing composites, I think, Titleist did it with the 909D Comp but abandon that idea with 910D and there has been no tears but Callaway has been doing this for many years, and according to the Ultimate Review listed today, this composite is maybe the best driver so far.

 

Very good point, I hadn't thought of that.

[fozcycle]

From my humble experience, I have used Persimmon woods, Ping G2, Cobra Speed, Cobra L4V, Cobra S-2, PowerBilt AFO's, Callaway Diablo, Callaway FT.......to date the best driver I have ever hit consistently is the Callaway FT....I got one off ebay with a project X 5.0 graphite shaft.....WOW! it was longer than most, but more importantly, it's the straightness that works. I truly believe that it's the shaft, not the head that really does the trick.

[RoverRick]

From my humble experience, I have used Persimmon woods, Ping G2, Cobra Speed, Cobra L4V, Cobra S-2, PowerBilt AFO's, Callaway Diablo, Callaway FT.......to date the best driver I have ever hit consistently is the Callaway FT....I got one off ebay with a project X 5.0 graphite shaft.....WOW! it was longer than most, but more importantly, it's the straightness that works. I truly believe that it's the shaft, not the head that really does the trick.

 

 

So so true. The shaft is the most important in my opinion. Off of the face of the club, I honestly do not think there is any difference and no need to buy a new driver, if you have a driver that is less than three years old. I was personally not interested in new drivers, until I won one. Now I can hardly wait for it to get here. But in all honesty I am more excited about the shaft than the head. The head makes a difference in look, feel, sound, forgiveness vs workablity. Address position is also huge. close vs open but with the adjustablility now, that is not an issue. But shaft is key.

 

 

I am changing hybrids right now. I am replacing my Hogan hybrids with Titleist 909H but I am still trying to decided which shafts work better. I have had those Hogans since 2004 and they are still some of the best but they have no paint left on the bottom and the metal has worn until you can not even read what was written on them. By changing shafts I was able to keep up with all the others out there that promised to be better but the heads were not, The shafts got better.