Players clubs vs Game improvement irons

[Just_the_Chip]

I'm a little confused on when Game improvement irons start becoming a hinderance to a better player? Meaning, should a mid handicapper start looking at Players clubs. In my mind, using Taylormade as an example. A higher handicap player like myself may benefit from the Stealths (or game improvement irons), but at what point should that player start looking to say p790 that might be a little less forgiving, but I'm assuming more Workable for a better player?  I admit that my club knowledge is not great.

The hidden question behind my question, is that I'm looking to buy new irons. I feel like my game is trending in the right direction, I'm continuing to take lessons, and I've seen my handicap drop pretty well. in upgrading my clubs, I'm having a hard time deciding if I buy Game Improvement irons or if I should look at something that I can hit, but would grow into. My budget doesn't allow me to buy irons every couple of years. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

When the performance of the club is hindering progress or the players distance provides better performance.

Theres no hard and fast rule for when to switch ir even that a switch needs to happen. Most of the time people looking to switch are doing it to have something different. 

I have a buddy that plays off a 2-3 handicap that has driver swing speed in the 115-117 range that plays t200 irons. 

[cnosil]

As mentioned, there is no specific rule.  Clubs should.not be selected based on handicap!!    A high handicap player may play better with players irons because they need more spin and a low handicapper may play better with game improvement irons.   It comes down to trying the clubs to see what provides the best performance for you.    
also,  just becuase your handicap,drops doesn’t mean you need to switch club types; the clubs that you were playing are what helped you improve and Lu can continue to improve with them.   There is nothing that prevents a low handicap player from getting to scratch by using SGI clubs 
 

The hinderance comes when the player is unable to get good performance from the club anymore which could be spin, launch angle, height, etc.   

 

[fixyurdivot]

Never forget that marketing does what marketing is paid to do... and golfers are as easy to fool as Cutthroat Trout on opening day.  The club categories have, in recent years, been getting quite blurred - and this is a good thing for we consumers!  Having "tweener" designs affords many an even better fit to their games.  Best approach is to get fitted, establish a short list, and then agonize over which too choose .  Don't believe me, just ask @cnosil @Kenny B, and a few others .

[Shrek74]

47 minutes ago, Shakeyfly said:

I'm a little confused on when Game improvement irons start becoming a hinderance to a better player? Meaning, should a mid handicapper start looking at Players clubs. In my mind, using Taylormade as an example. A higher handicap player like myself may benefit from the Stealths (or game improvement irons), but at what point should that player start looking to say p790 that might be a little less forgiving, but I'm assuming more Workable for a better player?  I admit that my club knowledge is not great.

The hidden question behind my question, is that I'm looking to buy new irons. I feel like my game is trending in the right direction, I'm continuing to take lessons, and I've seen my handicap drop pretty well. in upgrading my clubs, I'm having a hard time deciding if I buy Game Improvement irons or if I should look at something that I can hit, but would grow into. My budget doesn't allow me to buy irons every couple of years. 

You'll get plenty of variance in responses for this question, so I'll give you mine based on my experiences.

Go get fit. Now that that's out of the way, we'll continue.

Handicap should never be used to determine what irons a player "needs" or should be looking at. The OEM's have been feeding us that line for decades and it's really not a relevant indication of what irons an individual should play, and really never was. You'll hear this answer a LOT on the forum from all sorts of people. This is one of the big myths busted by MGS over their existence.

Every player swings the club differently. Player A might be great in one aspect of the game and horrible in another (see Scottie Scheffler's tee to green versus his putting as an example). But player B might be the exact opposite. What's crazy is they may have the exact same handicap, they just get there differently. That's why handicap is a terrible way to buy clubs. Buy clubs based on your swing and your needs only. Not what the OEM's say.

There are no rules on what type of irons (or any club for that matter) a player should use. I know single digits that love their GI irons and have no desire to switch to player's heads. I also know high digits that are great iron strikers and love their CB's but have much more forgiving driver/woods/wedges because those aspects of their game aren't great. What you need to do is take an honest look at your game and your swing in each game aspect - driver, FWs, hybrids/utilities, irons, wedges, putter. Leave ego aside along with the description of club type (SGI, GI, player's, distance, etc) and just evaluate how you swing each type of club and how you use them. Don't limit yourself because the OEM's tell you you should. Let your game tell you where to go and what to look into. Many of us these days find ourselves in combo sets for our irons - more forgiving in the long irons, more player's in the scoring irons. But as I mentioned, let your game and your fitting lead you to the answer.

[Blaine Dye]

I play a game improvement iron and i would say the only reason i am looking for new irons is the shaping i feel like i cannot shape that ball to the draw or fade that I want because the club is made to help with hitting the ball straight other then that i think it just comes down to preference i would say go get fitted and see what your average ball flight looks like to see if a certain club could help with achieving what you want out of your irons 

[cnosil]

1 minute ago, Blaine Dye said:

I play a game improvement iron and i would say the only reason i am looking for new irons is the shaping i feel like i cannot shape that ball to the draw or fade that I want 

I personally would recommend against trying to hit draws and fades unless it is an absolute necessity/recovery shot.   At my level I don’t feel like  I ever need to change the shape of my stock shot.   Studies of players dispersion patterns have led course management strategists to consider the old (for right handers )draw the ball to left pins and fade to right pins a fallacy.   Why do you want to work the ball and what are you trying to accomplish? 

[Blaine Dye]

9 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I personally would recommend against trying to hit draws and fades unless it is an absolute necessity/recovery shot.   At my level I don’t feel like  I ever need to change the shape of my stock shot.   Studies of players dispersion patterns have led course management strategists to consider the old (for right handers )draw the ball to left pins and fade to right pins a fallacy.   Why do you want to work the ball and what are you trying to accomplish? 

i don't try to hit a draw or fade because  pin its like you said when i need to do it because a tree is in the way or i hit a bad drive and now i need one to recover i feel with my G710 i just cant produce the spin needed to get back into play so a lot of times I just got to take my medicine and punch or chip out to get back into play instead of maybe going for that big draw or fade to get around the obstacle 

[Just_the_Chip]

I should mentioned I was fitted, a year ago, but I'm going to go get re-fit. My fitting experience wasn't what others had described so I'm hoping to find someone that will take the time to make suggestions based upon data.

[Blaine Dye]

45 minutes ago, Shakeyfly said:

I should mentioned I was fitted, a year ago, but I'm going to go get re-fit. My fitting experience wasn't what others had described so I'm hoping to find someone that will take the time to make suggestions based upon data.

One thing that helped was i posted a topic on here for advice on fitting  and the big thing was know what you want out of the experience i always thought you went in hit a few clubs and they told you what to get but its more like a conversation you have to be open  and honest about your game and don't be afraid to ask questions or tell them this club doesn't feel right to me its a big investment make sure the fitter doesn't try to put there personal preferences on to you cause they may be a big TaylorMade player but a TaylorMade could feel weird off the face to you 

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, Blaine Dye said:

I play a game improvement iron and i would say the only reason i am looking for new irons is the shaping i feel like i cannot shape that ball to the draw or fade that I want because the club is made to help with hitting the ball straight other then that i think it just comes down to preference i would say go get fitted and see what your average ball flight looks like to see if a certain club could help with achieving what you want out of your irons 

Why try to shape it. It only brings in the potential for more issues. The number of players on tour that constantly work the ball in both directions is 5.

Better to concentrate on hitting each shot flush and with natural flight 

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, Blaine Dye said:

i don't try to hit a draw or fade because  pin its like you said when i need to do it because a tree is in the way or i hit a bad drive and now i need one to recover i feel with my G710 i just cant produce the spin needed to get back into play so a lot of times I just got to take my medicine and punch or chip out to get back into play instead of maybe going for that big draw or fade to get around the obstacle 

This could be a technique issue. I have no problem hitting balls around trees with i525 irons which are some of the lowest spinning irons I have played

[Kenny B]

4 hours ago, Shakeyfly said:

I'm a little confused on when Game improvement irons start becoming a hinderance to a better player? Meaning, should a mid handicapper start looking at Players clubs. In my mind, using Taylormade as an example. A higher handicap player like myself may benefit from the Stealths (or game improvement irons), but at what point should that player start looking to say p790 that might be a little less forgiving, but I'm assuming more Workable for a better player?  I admit that my club knowledge is not great.

The hidden question behind my question, is that I'm looking to buy new irons. I feel like my game is trending in the right direction, I'm continuing to take lessons, and I've seen my handicap drop pretty well. in upgrading my clubs, I'm having a hard time deciding if I buy Game Improvement irons or if I should look at something that I can hit, but would grow into. My budget doesn't allow me to buy irons every couple of years. 

When looking at buying new irons, I wouldn't look at any particular category or iron but listen to what the fitter believes would be the best fit for your swing, and what feels the best to you.  If you have a dominant shot shape, you should work with that shape to improve and not worry about shaping shots.  This is a recommendation by Jon Sherman in his book, "The Four Foundations of Golf".  I agree with it.  Yes, Players irons will shape shots easier than SGI irons, but most of us amateurs can't work the ball one way or the other dependably, and that can get us into trouble that is just not worth it.  Learn to play your dominant shot shape to maximize the best outcome rather than taking a low percentage chance at pulling off a shot you can't reliably control.  

There is nothing wrong with SGI or GI irons that tend to fly straight.  I like straight.  I play the ball to go straight.  I play two different sets of irons; an SGI set of Bridgestones and an old set of MacGregor tourney VIP forged irons.  The Bridgestones play straight; the MacGregors are straight but can produce a draw that I don't usually play, and I can get into trouble sometimes.  They are easier to shape ball flight.  However, with the proper setup I am able to "work" the ball a little with the Bridgestones; something I don't normally do.   As Jon Sherman says you are probably better off getting the ball back into play than trying to work the ball around a tree.  

[chris_]

I think the best answer to this is to use an app like the Grint that best exposes the weaknesses in your game. Do you hit most of your FIR and GIR? Then you need a better putter. Hit all your FIR and miss all your GIR? Then look at your irons. Then get fit. 

[GolfSpy_APH]

Going to take a lot different approach with answering.

Get the P790.

Why? They are a fantastic all around iron that can work and fit for maybe the widest range of abilities. You aren't going to be punished that much more with them vs the stealth. They will have improved feel and give a slightly smaller look. Best part is you can play them till you get bored of them. I have seen 25 plus handicaps play them and I have seen 5 handicaps play them. 

As for shot shaping the ability is there with basically any club, but having a consistent swing and predictable flight is far more important. 

[Josh Parker]

5 hours ago, Shakeyfly said:

I should mentioned I was fitted, a year ago, but I'm going to go get re-fit. My fitting experience wasn't what others had described so I'm hoping to find someone that will take the time to make suggestions based upon data.

It's super important and with the ability these days to blend clubs within the same brand, you don't have to worry about one type of club or another these days. 

I play a more forgiving iron in my 4-6 and love them. It's all about what works best for you. 

[GolfSpy_BEN]

6 hours ago, Shakeyfly said:

I should mentioned I was fitted, a year ago, but I'm going to go get re-fit. My fitting experience wasn't what others had described so I'm hoping to find someone that will take the time to make suggestions based upon data.

I, and a few others on here, would recommend a Titleist fitting. Their fitters and the experience are second to none and will have you dialed in. 

[GolfSpy_SHARK]

Definitly get fitted again if ya can afford to do so!

with that being said swing all the clubs and see what you enjoy playing the best would be my only advice. At the end of the days we are not professionals here (for the most part). If the swing feels good and the feel is good and the numbers agree (if you’re into the numbers) the. That’s the club

[chisag]

3 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

As for shot shaping the ability is there with basically any club, but having a consistent swing and predictable flight is far more important.

 

... Always been one of my gripes with posts about clubs that can work the ball. A good iron player can work a hybrid 7 iron without much more difficulty than a MB 7 iron. As others have stated, the modern ball really is designed to go higher and straighter, so working the ball is something you need to practice and see if it can be a benefit for you. But only if you are an excellent ball striker. I hit the ball pretty straight or with a slight draw. On a bad day it can be a bigger draw, so I don't work the ball to the left because it always has the capability to get away from me and turn into a hook. I will however work the ball to the right on occasion to a back right pin with no trouble. But even then I am not starting my shot 5 feet left and working it to the pin, I am stating it 15 feet right and working it toward the pin. If I pull it off as planned I will have a 8-10 footer for birdie. If I over do it I am working the ball close to the pin but that would be a missed shot. And to be clear all circumstances have to be in my favor to hit a fade to a back right pin including how well I am swinging that day, where I stand in my round and if it really is the best shot on that green. More often than not I am hitting my stock iron shot about 8 feet left and if it moves another few feet left I still have a 10-12' birdie putt. 

... So you can work the ball if you have the skill, but for the vast majority it should be much rarer than playing your normal shot to the middle of the green, which most should be doing anyway. 

... I always find iron choices interesting and something we don't see so much with other clubs. If someone has a slice and plays the Stealth 2 HD, you don't see them posting about whether or not they should switch the the Stealth 2+. Or playing a TSR1 hybrid and hitting it well so they are thinking it's time to "move up" to the TSR3. Irons are simply tools that allow you to swing your swing with the best results. Golf forums don't help nor do labels like "Players" irons. I play King Tour irons because they produce the best combination of trajectory, spin and forgiveness. If I hit the T350's better, I would not hesitate to switch to them. And as many others have already said, getting fit should be a must for anyone looking to maximize their swing. For more than a few it can be a real eye opener. I am playing a Stealth 2 HD and because my miss is an over cooked draw, I would have never even demoed the High Draw version but the fitter knew better and had me try it. I was shocked it produced the best results. He said the added spin helped me keep it in the air longer and I actually hit less of a draw than I did with my Sim Max. 

[Javs]

10 hours ago, Shakeyfly said:

I'm a little confused on when Game improvement irons start becoming a hinderance to a better player? Meaning, should a mid handicapper start looking at Players clubs. In my mind, using Taylormade as an example. A higher handicap player like myself may benefit from the Stealths (or game improvement irons), but at what point should that player start looking to say p790 that might be a little less forgiving, but I'm assuming more Workable for a better player?  I admit that my club knowledge is not great.

The hidden question behind my question, is that I'm looking to buy new irons. I feel like my game is trending in the right direction, I'm continuing to take lessons, and I've seen my handicap drop pretty well. in upgrading my clubs, I'm having a hard time deciding if I buy Game Improvement irons or if I should look at something that I can hit, but would grow into. My budget doesn't allow me to buy irons every couple of years. 

Personally, I would recommend an iron fitting. Then you should get to test a wide range of irons/shafts and see the data. I also like testing outdoors in addition to hitting off a mat in the controlled indoor sim with the launch monitor. Besides the raw data, I like to see the ball flight off the club based on my swing. It is just something I have always preferred. However you do it, at least get a proper fitting with a well established place. I think you may answer you own question during the fitting.

[Javs]

1 hour ago, chisag said:

 

... Always been one of my gripes with posts about clubs that can work the ball. A good iron player can work a hybrid 7 iron without much more difficulty than a MB 7 iron. As others have stated, the modern ball really is designed to go higher and straighter, so working the ball is something you need to practice and see if it can be a benefit for you. But only if you are an excellent ball striker. I hit the ball pretty straight or with a slight draw. On a bad day it can be a bigger draw, so I don't work the ball to the left because it always has the capability to get away from me and turn into a hook. I will however work the ball to the right on occasion to a back right pin with no trouble. But even then I am not starting my shot 5 feet left and working it to the pin, I am stating it 15 feet right and working it toward the pin. If I pull it off as planned I will have a 8-10 footer for birdie. If I over do it I am working the ball close to the pin but that would be a missed shot. And to be clear all circumstances have to be in my favor to hit a fade to a back right pin including how well I am swinging that day, where I stand in my round and if it really is the best shot on that green. More often than not I am hitting my stock iron shot about 8 feet left and if it moves another few feet left I still have a 10-12' birdie putt. 

... So you can work the ball if you have the skill, but for the vast majority it should be much rarer than playing your normal shot to the middle of the green, which most should be doing anyway. 

... I always find iron choices interesting and something we don't see so much with other clubs. If someone has a slice and plays the Stealth 2 HD, you don't see them posting about whether or not they should switch the the Stealth 2+. Or playing a TSR1 hybrid and hitting it well so they are thinking it's time to "move up" to the TSR3. Irons are simply tools that allow you to swing your swing with the best results. Golf forums don't help nor do labels like "Players" irons. I play King Tour irons because they produce the best combination of trajectory, spin and forgiveness. If I hit the T350's better, I would not hesitate to switch to them. And as many others have already said, getting fit should be a must for anyone looking to maximize their swing. For more than a few it can be a real eye opener. I am playing a Stealth 2 HD and because my miss is an over cooked draw, I would have never even demoed the High Draw version but the fitter knew better and had me try it. I was shocked it produced the best results. He said the added spin helped me keep it in the air longer and I actually hit less of a draw than I did with my Sim Max. 

Very well stated

[chris_]

4 hours ago, Starboy543 said:

I faced a similar dilemma when upgrading my irons on InquireSalary.com. Consider a middle-ground option like Taylormade's P790, blending forgiveness with workability. These irons accommodate improvement yet offer a more player-friendly design.

Assess your comfort during a fitting, ensuring the clubs support your current game while allowing room for growth.

This doesn't seem scammy at all.

[Just_the_Chip]

20 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Going to take a lot different approach with answering.

Get the P790.

Why? They are a fantastic all around iron that can work and fit for maybe the widest range of abilities. You aren't going to be punished that much more with them vs the stealth. They will have improved feel and give a slightly smaller look. Best part is you can play them till you get bored of them. I have seen 25 plus handicaps play them and I have seen 5 handicaps play them. 

As for shot shaping the ability is there with basically any club, but having a consistent swing and predictable flight is far more important. 

I was looking at these! I hit them in a demo, but not a fitting. I really liked the look of them. I feel like the game improvement irons look really chunky looking down on them and I feel like it gets in my head. 

[chisag]

49 minutes ago, Shakeyfly said:

I was looking at these! I hit them in a demo, but not a fitting. I really liked the look of them. I feel like the game improvement irons look really chunky looking down on them and I feel like it gets in my head. 

 

... Performance should be the only factor and I am awe of those that can play anything regardless of how it looks. Be we are equipment nuts and on a golf forum which already says something about us.  Most of us have picked up a club and without even hitting it put it back down thinking "I could never play this club". That said, I don't think anyone should choose Cobra MB's because they look so purty and ignore Cobra Aerojets that produce better results for their swing. But if you can't stand to look at a chunky club with a thicker topping than suits your eye finding something in the middle the does look good to you should be the goal. And I am talking at address, not in the bag which imo is just silly and kinda like choosing a watch you think looks cool on your wrist but it can't keep accurate time. Isn't that what a watch is for? Thankfully there are clubs out there that should look at least playable to you at address if not ideal, and give you the best performance for your swing. 

... I am reminded of the time I asked the MIzuno rep at the PGA Show if I could order MP33's with a thinner top line and he said MIzuno has no custom options like that. But they did make several custom sets of MP33's with a much thicker top line for Darren Clark because he prefers a "meatier looking head at address". 

[cnosil]

22 minutes ago, chisag said:

 and kinda like choosing a watch you think looks cool on your wrist but it can't keep accurate time. Isn't that what a watch is for? 

Damn, chastised by @chisag again.  . I love mechanical watches and it is hard to get them to be accurate as they typically run fast or slow.     I also like fountain pens which occasionally drip and skip,  is that bad too? 

Edited November 29, 2023 by cnosil

[chisag]

8 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Damn, chastised by @chisag again.  . I love mechanical watches and it is hard to get them to be accurate as they typically run fast or slow.     I also like fountain pens which occasionally drip and skip,  is that bad too? 

 

... Hey my man, you do you! But clearly your life is one big surprise party, arriving late with ink stains on your fingers.   (Fwiw I have never owned a watch so I speak from ignorance) 

[CB Lobo 4 Life]

I have watched so many videos lately on getting myself into a better place for both my clubs and swing. Do you all want to know the one thing that is said IN EVERY SINGLE VIDEO? FEEL. That is it, feel. I always felt that if I needed to be the best player I could be I needed to work towards playing blades and Low spin woods. "To be the best player I must play what the best play." This is the wrong mentality. Regarding golf, FEEL is the only thing we should be concerned about. If the feel and the shot replicate what you want then who cares what club did it as long as it got done. Now, that being said my only caveat is looks. For me, I probably would benefit from "Game Improvement Irons" on most shots. However, I cannot stand the chunky look of those irons. For me, I found the middle ground with my Srixon ZX7 MKII irons. They do exactly what I want them to do with forgiveness and an incredible feel.