HackMotion 2.0 - 2024 Forum Review

[vandyland]

5 hours ago, WaffleHouseTour said:

Testers - what happens when you take it across the line at the top?

does the device Alert you to stop the backswing at a certain point?

thanks

Yes, but indirectly. If you are getting across the line, your wrist, most likely, is going to be well into "extension" (i.e. cupped) at the top. Technically, you could also have a forearm rotation issue that could get you across the line but 9 times out of 10 I would think it would primarily be wrist extension and radial deviation. So you would likely be adding extension when you got to the top of your backswing in that swing fault. You can set "bio feedback" on the device to beep and/or vibrate if you get to a certain range. If you gave me 30 seconds I could setup your hackmotion sensor to beep when you crossed the line, I think. 

[WaffleHouseTour]

2 hours ago, vandyland said:

Yes, but indirectly. If you are getting across the line, your wrist, most likely, is going to be well into "extension" (i.e. cupped) at the top. Technically, you could also have a forearm rotation issue that could get you across the line but 9 times out of 10 I would think it would primarily be wrist extension and radial deviation. So you would likely be adding extension when you got to the top of your backswing in that swing fault. You can set "bio feedback" on the device to beep and/or vibrate if you get to a certain range.

Thanks.  I've been thinking about giving it a try - if it could help with this.  Sounds like it could. 

[vandyland]

1 hour ago, WaffleHouseTour said:

Thanks.  I've been thinking about giving it a try - if it could help with this.  Sounds like it could. 

I will try to put a finer point on this question you have as I work through it. My early, early impressions are that this is a great device at telling you very specific data. The actual interpretation can be tricky, however, and if misapplied could really set you back. It is kind of a "with great power comes great responsibility" type deal. 

[Shrek74]

6 hours ago, vandyland said:

So I followed your dead hands feeling myself and all the sudden I changed my chart to this:

My ulnar/radial deviation no longer crosses the flexion/extension line AND my club never goes into flexion during the swing. In the swing diagnostic I have never had such an easy time getting 10 in a row:

So my next question was -- "okay but these are probably going NOWHERE" because I don't have some huge wrist set. Well, also not the case. Here is a typical shot from my Rapsodo MLM2Pro last night, a 9 iron that carries 149-150 yds with an 86 mph club head speed and a tight draw....um yes that is what I like to see. 

So, like you @NotScratchYet, I have a round of golf tomorrow and I am pretty sure I am going to try to play this deadhands way. I just have to make sure the clubface stays square to my spine angle going back and then motorcycle move into impact. That is A LOT less swing thoughts than I normally have. 

I apologize if this was answered in a different post and I missed it, but can you explain what you mean by the "dead hands" comment? I'm not exactly sure what that means.

[vandyland]

28 minutes ago, Shrek74 said:

I apologize if this was answered in a different post and I missed it, but can you explain what you mean by the "dead hands" comment? I'm not exactly sure what that means.

So no active attempt at a wrist set, essentially. Previously, I was aggressively setting my wrists very early and now I am just moving the club with my shoulders and keeping my hands passive on the way to the top. It is more of a feel than a real, you can see there is not a huge difference in actual wrist set at the top based on these pictures:

These pictures are "dead hands" and me just turning the club to the top without ACTIVE, forced wrist set early on:

Vs below is the active wrist set and active hands. Not a huge difference as you can see but notable:

Edited August 20 by vandyland

[Shrek74]

16 minutes ago, vandyland said:

So no active attempt at a wrist set, essentially. Previously, I was aggressively setting my wrists very early and now I am just moving the club with my shoulders and keeping my hands passive on the way to the top. It is more of a feel than a real, you can see there is not a huge difference in actual wrist set at the top based on these pictures:

These pictures are "dead hands" and me just turning the club to the top without ACTIVE, forced wrist set early on:

Vs below is the active wrist set and active hands. Not a huge difference as you can see but notable:

Ok, cool. I can definitely see the club is in a very different position between the two. Wit the forced wrist set being far more flat and behind your head compared to the dead hand position which is far more upwards.

So you're not doing any of the "motorcycle rev" hand/wrist movement or anything. Just taking the club back using your big muscles and no forced wrist set.

[vandyland]

6 hours ago, Shrek74 said:

So you're not doing any of the "motorcycle rev" hand/wrist movement or anything. Just taking the club back using your big muscles and no forced wrist set.

I am doing the motorcycle move in the downswing. If I didn’t I would come over the top. But there is very little thought in the backswing except keeping the clubface square to my spine angle (i.e. not opening it up in the backswing). If that makes sense. This could all be a disaster as I have only hit balls on a simulator with this swing. I am playing 18 tomorrow so that will be the first hurdle. I predict there will be some bad shots in there as I learn this pattern.

This video (using older version of hackmotion) describes exactly what I think @NotScratchYet and I are experiencing….

 

Edited August 21 by vandyland

[NotScratchYet]

6 hours ago, vandyland said:

I am doing the motorcycle move in the downswing. If I didn’t I would come over the top. But there is very little thought in the backswing except keeping the clubface square to my spine angle (i.e. not opening it up in the backswing). If that makes sense. This could all be a disaster as I have only hit balls on a simulator with this swing. I am playing 18 tomorrow so that will be the first hurdle. I predict there will be some bad shots in there as I learn this pattern.

This video (using older version of hackmotion) describes exactly what I think @NotScratchYet and I are experiencing….

 

Yes, @vandyland and @Shrek74!!  This video explains and sums up the feeling that I have had with this.  At 4:00-4:06, "Wrists feel very quiet" Exactly this.  I have never been able to take a new thought to the course as quickly as this feeling.  I feel the club more in front of my body, and my pivot and weight transfer feel much better without actively thinking about it.  The consistency of the strike has been amazing.  What HackMotion has taught me (according to my swing type) is how little radial deviation occurs from the address position. 

I like how the video includes swings like Phil, Daly, and Bubba and that they may be outliers or just a timing talent phenom to be able to actively add radial and unload the radial at impact.  Excellent find on the video.

[Shrek74]

6 hours ago, vandyland said:

I am doing the motorcycle move in the downswing. If I didn’t I would come over the top. But there is very little thought in the backswing except keeping the clubface square to my spine angle (i.e. not opening it up in the backswing). If that makes sense. This could all be a disaster as I have only hit balls on a simulator with this swing. I am playing 18 tomorrow so that will be the first hurdle. I predict there will be some bad shots in there as I learn this pattern.

This video (using older version of hackmotion) describes exactly what I think @NotScratchYet and I are experiencing….

 

Excellent video. I have been told by my swing coach that I'm very good on my takeaway and backswing and keep the club face parallel with my spine really well. It's at transition where my hands/wrists get super active and start to cast the club almost immediately and then flip at impact. So I really need to work on more quiet hands/wrists like the video mentions and that might help with shaft lean and proper ball first contact.

[NotScratchYet]

13 hours ago, vandyland said:

So I followed your dead hands feeling myself and all the sudden I changed my chart to this:

My ulnar/radial deviation no longer crosses the flexion/extension line AND my club never goes into flexion during the swing. In the swing diagnostic I have never had such an easy time getting 10 in a row:

So my next question was -- "okay but these are probably going NOWHERE" because I don't have some huge wrist set. Well, also not the case. Here is a typical shot from my Rapsodo MLM2Pro last night, a 9 iron that carries 149-150 yds with an 86 mph club head speed and a tight draw....um yes that is what I like to see. 

So, like you @NotScratchYet, I have a round of golf tomorrow and I am pretty sure I am going to try to play this deadhands way. I just have to make sure the clubface stays square to my spine angle going back and then motorcycle move into impact. That is A LOT less swing thoughts than I normally have. 

WOW!  I would take those all day.  Like you, I thought my club head speed would have decreased exponentially but that is not the case.  If my contact keeps up this way I will have to readjust my distances!  

It looks like you're right on the same track I am with this "new" feeling.  I hope you play well tomorrow and looking forward to your findings.

Some follow-up questions on this are would it work on another swing type or someone that has a naturally out-to-in path?

One thing I noticed immediately with minimizing my radial in the backswing is my in-to-out path moved closer to zero as well.  I am not sure if this feeling reduces other swing tendencies, if I have a better club face awareness, or if it is having a positive impact on my path.

To add a note from my son's interpretation, he feels that if he wants to hit it slightly further he just "turns" slightly faster.  BTW, he played in a tourney today and his ball striking was vastly improved.  This "dead hand" feeling is something that he can understand easily if he gets it wrong.  He splashed one tee shot today, and without talking with him at the time, realized his wrists got too active.  He dropped a ball and pipped a 6-iron straight down the middle.  I saw him rehearse the no wrists immediately after making the "bad swing"

[Will A]

19 hours ago, vandyland said:

My early, early impressions are that this is a great device at telling you very specific data. The actual interpretation can be tricky, however....

I have rarely, if ever, agreed with a statement more wholeheartedly.  I have come to believe we are living in a world awash with data, but few have any idea how to use it.  (Lest you be mistaken, I am definitely in the ignorant majority here.)  This is where I can see the system really starting to shine.  It gives you the data, but it also interprets it for you.

 

I had my first session really working the sensor yesterday, and it unleashed on me a furry of data that I'm still trying to sift through.  I appear to have the "Type C" swing pattern - that or I have "a typical amateur's faulty pattern."  Probably the latter.

What was notable, however, is that the system quickly identified some swing faults and gave me drills to correct them.  Happily, many of these drills can be done without striking a ball.

I was identified as having too much flexion at the top of my swing.  In reality, this meant my wrist is too straight at the top and I needed some lag.  

The solution is a series of drills starting with having me hold the club at the top (P4).  With the biofeedback in the default "on" setting, the sensor vibrates when in the preferred range.  It then progressed to a dynamic version of the same, taking the club back from address and holding at P4.  The final drill involved full swings.  It was incredible what just a few minutes working these drills accomplished to develop the muscle memory.  

I carried that muscle memory out on the course and played the best (time limited) 12-hole round of my life!  Even with one hit OB, I was on pace to beat my course best by 5 strokes, posted my lowest differential by 1.3 strokes, and dropped my handicap by 1.1.

Combined with the Chamber of Commerce weather, it was one hell of a way to spend the afternoon!

 

 

Edited August 21 by Will A

[vandyland]

So I played 18 today and spent about an hour on the range before and afterward (big golf day I guess). There were highs and lows, as is to be expected. 

On the range I was flushing it, hitting nice draws and overall feeling great about this new swing I had. I then went out and shot 34 on the front 9 and hit 8/9 greens which was, amazing. At this point I am wondering if this is just me now, ball striking king. Well, the back 9 brought with it a humbling 45 with 3 balls hit OB. So, my thoughts are that I was probably getting stuck between patterns. I think as I got comfortable/cocky coming off the front I probably mixed in some parts of my old swing on accident. I had a 2 way miss going hard for a couple of holes. But overall I am encouraged, I was hitting the ball *slightly* farther and I think there is only room for improvement here. 

On the range after the tumultuous round, I noticed a few things. One, I was over swinging (taking the club really far back) and two I was starting to suck it a little inside and flat on the takeaway. Here was my position at the top directly after the round and then the second picture is after I filmed that swing and adjusted a little. 

I also did some full swing drills and guided practice with the HackMotion. I have now switched to my issue being too extended (previously I was too flexed). I was finding it hard to put together a good streak today. 

I was flexing at the top too much which is reminiscent of my old swing. Bad habits die hard and all that. Will work on it a little bit tonight if I am not too wiped out at this point. 

Edited August 22 by vandyland

[Will A]

I'm heading out for another range session this afternoon.  What questions are out there?  Anything particular you spies want me to try?

[Jawmusique]

9 minutes ago, Will A said:

I'm heading out for another range session this afternoon.  What questions are out there?  Anything particular you spies want me to try?

I think maybe this more in general, but how many swings is it taking you to ingrain a new wrist position/idea into your on course game?

[Will A]

2 minutes ago, Jawmusique said:

I think maybe this more in general, but how many swings is it taking you to ingrain a new wrist position/idea into your on course game?

My last time out, instead of my normal warm-up I spent about 20 minutes on the suggested drills - all with a 7i - then hit maybe 5 shots each with driver and wedges just to find the bottom of my swing.  That seemed to be enough.  The integration of biofeedback (vibrations) into the drills do a remarkable job of building that muscle memory.

In my past experience working with a pro, they can help you with static positioning (i.e., positioning you in the top of a held backswing), but few pros have the patience to do it for you over and over and over, and it wouldn't be safe for them to try in the middle of a dynamic movement (full or partial swing).  Additionally, by using your own body to put yourself into position, I think it's more effective.

[Will A]

11 minutes ago, Jawmusique said:

I think maybe this more in general, but how many swings is it taking you to ingrain a new wrist position/idea into your on course game?

Realized I didn't directly answer your question.  My last session before a round, I recorded 26 swings: 13 "guided practice" and 13 "free practice."

[vandyland]

18 minutes ago, Jawmusique said:

I think maybe this more in general, but how many swings is it taking you to ingrain a new wrist position/idea into your on course game?

I use the biofeedback and sound feature, here is a video of me getting into position and feeling out the "range" I have at the top. When you hear the "AHHHHHHHHHHH" sound that is similar to an angelic chorus....you are doing it right:

 

 

Edited August 23 by vandyland

[Rearviewmirror]

1 hour ago, Will A said:

I'm heading out for another range session this afternoon.  What questions are out there?  Anything particular you spies want me to try?

How much are you doing only HackMotion swings vs then switching "training brain" off and just hitting shots?

[Shrek74]

Testers, are you using the Hackmotion even when you're not following any program or training process? Do you go to the range, put on the sensor, and just hit balls to see how your normal swing is doing for the various positions the sensor monitors? Or are you only utilizing it when following a training program?

[Will A]

32 minutes ago, Rearviewmirror said:

How much are you doing only HackMotion swings vs then switching "training brain" off and just hitting shots?

So far, each drill has required at least 10 reps for completion, so I've been doing that and then just a dozen or so swings in the "free practice" mode to make sure it stuck.  I wouldn't say it's required a lot of mental energy to switch despite the fact that the swing feels different.

[Will A]

29 minutes ago, Shrek74 said:

Testers, are you using the Hackmotion even when you're not following any program or training process? Do you go to the range, put on the sensor, and just hit balls to see how your normal swing is doing for the various positions the sensor monitors? Or are you only utilizing it when following a training program?

Setting aside that I think it would displease the admins if we said we weren't using it the whole time, I really don't have any interest in not using it.  It has both an active "directed practice" mode and a passive "free practice" mode.  I don't see any reason not to let it watch and measure when I'm not doing particular drills.  It's kind of opened my eyes to how unproductive my practice sessions were before.  I mean, sure I can tell my swing bath and face position based on my ball flight, but I was missing the why.

[vandyland]

41 minutes ago, Shrek74 said:

Testers, are you using the Hackmotion even when you're not following any program or training process? Do you go to the range, put on the sensor, and just hit balls to see how your normal swing is doing for the various positions the sensor monitors? Or are you only utilizing it when following a training program?

I like the free practice mode on HackMotion because it gives me a full chart. So far, the training program on the full swing just shows me flexion/extension as it appears that HackMotion prioritizes that metric over ulnar/radial and rotation (at least for me). I also like to take it off and try to swing without training wheels for a bit and then hop back on. But I usually start in the Training Protocol and work on that first. 

[Shrek74]

51 minutes ago, vandyland said:

I like the free practice mode on HackMotion because it gives me a full chart. So far, the training program on the full swing just shows me flexion/extension as it appears that HackMotion prioritizes that metric over ulnar/radial and rotation (at least for me). I also like to take it off and try to swing without training wheels for a bit and then hop back on. But I usually start in the Training Protocol and work on that first. 

1 hour ago, Will A said:

Setting aside that I think it would displease the admins if we said we weren't using it the whole time, I really don't have any interest in not using it.  It has both an active "directed practice" mode and a passive "free practice" mode.  I don't see any reason not to let it watch and measure when I'm not doing particular drills.  It's kind of opened my eyes to how unproductive my practice sessions were before.  I mean, sure I can tell my swing bath and face position based on my ball flight, but I was missing the why.

Thanks guys. Sounds like it's been working best when you follow a particular directed practice mixed with a free practice while still wearing the sensor. Then use the sensor if you're just doing a free practice session to watch and ensure you're still doing stuff right.

[vandyland]

**Placeholder for Drills Review/Summary/Explanation**

Within the HackMotion app, there is a section "Browse Drills" where you can see all the drills that the HackMotion offers. In the diagnostic mode, you hit shots and then drills get prescribed for your relative swing fault but I wanted to show that you can also just jump into any drill you want with the HackMotion.

From there you have your choice of "Top" (backswing essentially) and "Impact" (downswing essentially) drills:

Starting with the backswing drills, the "Static Top Drill" trains an "in range" top of the backswing wrist position. This drill aims to ingrain that feeling you are chasing at the top. The beauty of this drill is you do not need a ball/full swing to perform it. 

Step 1: Is to set your address position
Step 2: Is to go to the top
Step 3: Is get in range and hold the position. 

Building on that drill, the next drill is "Dynamic Top Drill" which removes step 3 where you check/get in range. This is just setup and then BAM hit the target range with your backswing:

Finally the "Top full swing challenge" is, you guessed it, a full swing. This is a full dynamic swing with a priority on hitting the target range at the top. You do not need a ball but you do need to be able to hit the ground. What is interesting about this drill is that the downswing may cause you to flex your wrist more at the top as you prepare for the transition (I do this), so it is, in fact, harder for those of us who go into flexion in the downswing:

Okay so those are the Backswing Drills but what is the experience within these drills like? I will do the "Dynamic Top Drill" as an example. See this screen capture video of me opening the app, checking my calibration and then how the sensor shows your flexion/extension and ultimately success or failure:

Here is the selection screen and then the explanation of the drill (I made a gif for simplicity), it is showing that you hold your address position for about 3 seconds to set the relative flexion/extension and then go to the top of your backswing:

And then here is the actual in-app experience for that same drill, I get setup at address (the yellow status bar is waiting for me to stop moving) and then once I am stationary for 3 seconds I have "set" my address position for the app that will be measured against my position at the top. I then perform a backswing and the app tells me if I arrived in the range or not. In this example, I was +11 at setup and then +15 at the top which is within the acceptable range for HackMotion. 

 

Edited August 27 by vandyland

[ColdOkieGolf]

9 hours ago, vandyland said:

I use the biofeedback and sound feature, here is a video of me getting into position and feeling out the "range" I have at the top. When you hear the "AHHHHHHHHHHH" sound that is similar to an angelic chorus....you are doing it right:

 

 

Hah,  that's amazing!    

[NotScratchYet]

Well, today was the day.  I wanted to get a good baseline of just how bad my putting is.  I went to the local putting green.  I wanted to test my "square-stance" putting stroke with my Jack Nicklaus putting stroke.  When I try to imitate Jack, my distance control is usually great.

Long story short, I could not distinguish my data on the hack motion from my "Square" stance to my "Jack" stance.  This did not deviate when I went from 5' to 10' either.  36 putts on the HackMotion look identical.  Years of attempting a straight back and threw putting stoke has me under-rotating on the backswing and opening on the through swing.  This, I believe is the cause of my inconsistency in my putting stroke.  Some days I feel I can do everything, others, not so much.

 

  You can see that at the address I am at 0, then under rotate on the takeaway.  Sometimes I get it back to 0.

I watched a few putting videos on the HackMotion website.  From my understanding, it is about understanding your tendencies and figuring out what works and what doesn't for your swing.  The video does a great job using J.T. Poston as an example.  J.T. sets up with a club head 2.5 degrees open to the start line, however, his putting stroke is highly repeatable which is why he putts so well.  

 

My putting stroke is under-rotating and out to in path on the threw swing.  I think I can keep my slight out-to-in path, but I need to eliminate my under-rotation.  I spent several putts attempting to rotate the head open on the backswing but could never accomplish this.  Out of 58 putts, the closest I got was -2 under rotation.  

With my tendencies of under-rotation firmly established, my next step will be correcting this.  My next trip to the practice green is to start to change my unwanted faults.  I will update you as this story unfolds!

Link to the HackMotion article and steps to make a change: https://hackmotion.com/identifying-putting-stroke-patterns/

 

*Side note to my full swing*

-I am still striking the ball much more consistently which is resulting in closer proximity to the hole and straighter shots.  My next step is to have a follow-up range session to see if my radial deviation has permanently changed for the better.  This will be checked by comparing my swing pattern graph to Type A again.  

-An interesting result, has been an increase in birdies.  The last 3 times I have played at my local course I have birdied both par 5s every time.  The consistency of strike is putting me in a much better location to attack these greens.  I fully believe that HackMotion has helped me understand wrist involvement in my swing.   

 

 

[vandyland]

Stream of consciousness here but that's how it goes sometimes. I need to just focus on the guided practice at this time. I am having prioritization issues when I look at a "full" chart with the ulnar/radial + rotational lines added. HackMotion seems to prioritize stable flexion/extension in your swing and I should to. So, with that, I have been working HARD on my backswing the last few days and I got a streak of 25 straight (25/25 no misses) of stable extension in my back swing.

I am having to work hard on this as I had fallen quite deep into BOWING my wrist in the backswing which really decreases extension going back. Anyway, I am moving from feeling like the clubface is closed in the backswing to back to a more "toe up" position at P2. Fast forward to playing golf this weekend on Sunday and it was quite the rollercoaster ride. The Good: I hit some EXCELLENT shots at times and my ballflight on those is higher and straighter and overall just coming out of a better window. The Bad: I shot 80 which is 40/40 on the front and back and about 3-4 shots higher than my average. The Ugly: I put 3 balls Out of Bounds off the tee -- two were very bad snap hooks and one was just an unlucky tee ball where I hit it about 25 yds farther than normal and ran it into a hazard on my target line (I can live with that). I feel a little naked out on the course without my HackMotion because I find myself wondering where my wrist angles are in the backswing. I don't have the muscle memory yet so it is hard to trust it. I am looking to find a better feeling that can translate to the course because I don't have it just yet. 

Edited August 26 by vandyland

[vandyland]

**Guided Practice Placeholder**

The guided practice, to me, is the main feature of the HackMotion device. It serves to diagnose your swing over 10 shots to see what your main issue is, in terms of wrist control/movement. The guided practice is only concerned with Flexion/Extension, as a reminder seem the below pictures showing, in order, a (somewhat) neutral wrist / wrist in FLEXION / wrist in EXTENSION:

So again, the guided practice is only going to track your flexion/extension and it has a tolerance range for the top of your backswing and then your position at impact. All that is based off of your relative extension/flexion at setup (address) position. Once you calibrate the device (usually takes about 5 seconds) you can go ahead and get started swinging. Once you complete a swing, the sensor will show several things (1) a 3D or 2D animation of your hand during the swing (2) Your Flexion/Extension at Address, Top of the Backswing and Impact and your current streak for how many you have gotten in the range or how far out of the range you were (3) A graph of your flexion/extension during the swing (you can toggle the "benchmark" on or off, it is the dotted line below):

Edited August 27 by vandyland

[Jawmusique]

A general question for the Hackmotion testers - how close are you hands/wrists at impact to where they were at address?  I know everyone opens the club face approx. 90 degrees at the top of their swing, but a lot of golf instruction seems to indicate that you essentially end up delofting the club (for good players) at impact - i.e. wipe the table, right palm at the ground, etc. 

I'm wanting to see how close impact actually is to setup.  Thanks, fellas.

[vandyland]

3 hours ago, Jawmusique said:

I'm wanting to see how close impact actually is to setup.  Thanks, fellas.

I'll answer this question two ways. But the short answer is more flexed (or less extended) than you were at setup...

1) HackMotion wants the user/player to be 15 to 30 degrees less extended at impact than you are at setup. So for me, if my setup is +20 my "range" that I am allowed to be in is +5 to -10 on the Extension/Flexion at impact. 

2) As to where am I actually? Well, I will go back to my last guided practice session (Sunday morning I hit about 25 shots on it into a net) and I can see how I shook out. HackMotion saves all my data by session, on average I am losing 29 degrees of extension which is right on the edge of acceptable: 

So my average (last number at the bottom) is I lose about 9 degrees of extension at the top of my backswing and then I lose another 20 degrees of extension (and go into flexion) in the downswing through impact, which is a little too much under their methodology. I have been working on the backswing drills a lot the last few days so I am doing quite well at the top of my swing but need to work on the impact drills to sort out my position at the bottom. 

 

Edited August 26 by vandyland