Club fitting is a scam!

[Louis_Posture]

32 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Clearly you think there's a better way, what do you suggest? 

You ask a good question and my answer comes from personal experience and observation of other players.

1) First a player needs to have reasonably effective swing technique; which can be developed from using basically any major OEM brand stock clubs produced within the past 20 years. By "reasonably effective technique" I mean a swing able to 9 out of 10 times strike straight tee shots 210 yards, hit a green from 150 yards 5 out of 10 times leaving the other 5 shots within 10 yards of the green,  from 100 yards out hit a green 7 out of 10 times leaving the other 3 shots within 10 yards of the green etc...

2) I guess 90% of people playing golf don't meet the above criteria, so rather than getting fit for clubs I believe they will be better served getting instruction and practicing.

3) For the 10% of players who do meet the above ball striking standards I believe their best sense strategy is to take clubs out on the golf course and play rounds of golf with them. Today's golf retail chains have 90-day satisfaction guaranteed programs. Ebay is filled with slightly used bargain priced equipment that can be bought and sold without materially significant financial loss, friends may have clubs they are no longer playing and are available for one to try for a round or two etc... Remember, players with consistently decent ball striking already understand their game , their swing, their shot tendencies etc...and if they're curious to learn what shots a bit heavier shaft, or a bit softer flex shaft, or driving iron club. or a lighter weight shaft, or a bit flatter lie angle  etc... might produce, today it's easy to try this or that on the course for a few rounds of golf.

[DaveP043]

8 minutes ago, Erin B said:

Josh!!! You hit the nail on the head with a claw hammer!!! (see what I did there?) A lesson, especially a beginner lesson should absolutely coincide with a fitting. For instance, let's say my wife finally decided she wants to play golf. She would not be able to play my equipment at all. She is a beginner and would not be able to swing my clubs, joined with my Xstiff shafts, one inch over standard and flattened lie. A lesson for her using my equipment would be a total waste of time and money.

Yeah, but for a real beginner, starting with relatively inexpensive "standard" clubs might be a reasonable way to go.  For a woman of somewhat average stature, off-the-shelf women's clubs would be fine for a while.  As the player progresses in experience and skill level, more "customized" clubs begin to have more value.  

I'm not someone who thinks "custom-fit" clubs are going to cure bad swing mechanics.  But if I'm planning to replace old clubs, I see value in getting club and shaft combinations to optimize my particular (or is it peculiar?) swing.

[Lefty11]

I firmly believe in the importance being fit for golf clubs, and at 6 feet 5 inches tall, I know that buying off-the-rack clubs isn’t the best option for me. I need clubs that are tailored to my specific height and swing, ensuring the right length and flex. When it comes to golf equipment, quality truly matters—you get what you pay for!

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, Louis_Posture said:

What label do you give to a 90's shooting player?

Why does there have to be a label?  I call the 90s shooting player a golfer just like a 60s shooting player.  

[Louis_Posture]

9 minutes ago, Lefty11 said:

I firmly believe in the importance being fit for golf clubs, and at 6 feet 5 inches tall, I know that buying off-the-rack clubs isn’t the best option for me. 

6'4" Tony Finau learned and practiced an address posture to fit standard length clubs. Historically, taller Tour players have done the same because the imbalance of over length clubs can cause problems.

[Erin B]

1 minute ago, Louis_Posture said:

6'4" Tony Finau learned and practiced an address posture to fit standard length clubs. Historically, taller Tour players have done the same because the imbalance of over length clubs can cause problems.

Yeah, but a club maker can balance any length club nowadays.

[DaveP043]

7 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

For the 10% of players who do meet the above ball striking standards I believe their best sense strategy is to take clubs out on the golf course and play rounds of golf with them. Today's golf retail chains have 90-day satisfaction guaranteed programs. Ebay is filled with slightly used bargain priced equipment that can be bought and sold without materially significant financial loss, friends may have clubs they are no longer playing and are available for one to try for a round or two etc... Remember, players with consistently decent ball striking already understand their game , their swing, their shot tendencies etc...and if they're curious to learn what shots a bit heavier shaft, or a bit softer flex shaft, or driving iron club. or a lighter weight shaft, or a bit flatter lie angle  etc... might produce, today it's easy to try this or that on the course for a few rounds of golf.

First, I think you're high, I bet not 5% of players are competent ball-strikers, per your definition.  I'm now a 7 index, and I don't fit your criteria. 

But this stuff is unrealistic.  You're talking about "testing" different sets of clubs over weeks or months, and seldom or never comparing one set with a different set.  You're talking about a Player who has good days and bad days, variable weather, different course conditions.  At least with traditional clubfitting I can see that one shaft launches the ball a little higher, or produces a little higher swing speed, etc.  

As for retail chains offering 90-day free returns, I just took a peek at the PGA Superstore policy here 

https://www.pgatoursuperstore.com/returns-page.html?srsltid=AfmBOoqOkbnricmM8zyYGFzs1cLp63CvIykBc6pzUn-0ylLiI3dE22Bi . 

They DO indeed offer free returns, for "stock items" only, for the same type of product.  Items can be returned one time only, if you're not happy with your second choice, you can trade it in under the "Trade in" program.  Only club "sets" qualify, individual irons will NOT be accepted back.  Store credit must be used the same day.  

Its just not as simple as you suggest.  

[Erin B]

20 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

You ask a good question and my answer comes from personal experience and observation of other players.

1) First a player needs to have reasonably effective swing technique; which can be developed from using basically any major OEM brand stock clubs produced within the past 20 years. By "reasonably effective technique" I mean a swing able to 9 out of 10 times strike straight tee shots 210 yards, hit a green from 150 yards 5 out of 10 times leaving the other 5 shots within 10 yards of the green,  from 100 yards out hit a green 7 out of 10 times leaving the other 3 shots within 10 yards of the green etc...

2) I guess 90% of people playing golf don't meet the above criteria, so rather than getting fit for clubs I believe they will be better served getting instruction and practicing.

3) For the 10% of players who do meet the above ball striking standards I believe their best sense strategy is to take clubs out on the golf course and play rounds of golf with them. Today's golf retail chains have 90-day satisfaction guaranteed programs. Ebay is filled with slightly used bargain priced equipment that can be bought and sold without materially significant financial loss, friends may have clubs they are no longer playing and are available for one to try for a round or two etc... Remember, players with consistently decent ball striking already understand their game , their swing, their shot tendencies etc...and if they're curious to learn what shots a bit heavier shaft, or a bit softer flex shaft, or driving iron club. or a lighter weight shaft, or a bit flatter lie angle  etc... might produce, today it's easy to try this or that on the course for a few rounds of golf.

So then 90% of golfers would never get a fitting. Just lessons and if they’re in the wrong loft, lie, stiffness, and length they’re SOL?

[funkyjudge]

7 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

6'4" Tony Finau learned and practiced an address posture to fit standard length clubs. Historically, taller Tour players have done the same because the imbalance of over length clubs can cause problems.

Over length clubs, at least those that are within 1” to 1.5” of “standard” lengths, do not have to be unbalanced.

[Lefty11]

8 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

6'4" Tony Finau learned and practiced an address posture to fit standard length clubs. Historically, taller Tour players have done the same because the imbalance of over length clubs can cause problems.

 

I understand that I could use shorter clubs, but that just doesn’t seem comfortable for me. I prefer not to feel hunched over while playing; I want to enjoy the game!

[Erin B]

10 minutes ago, funkyjudge said:

Over length clubs, at least those that are within 1” to 1.5” of “standard” lengths, do not have to be unbalanced.

I was wondering where you were!!! 

[Louis_Posture]

3 minutes ago, funkyjudge said:

Over length clubs, at least those that are within 1” to 1.5” of “standard” lengths, do not have to be unbalanced.

It's not just the imabalance (swing weight) that make over length clubs too challenging. It's the types of shots a golf course requires, especially for short irons and wedges, that has always had the tallest height Tour players opting for an address posture technique that fits standard length clubs.

Standard length clubs are ideally suited for players about 5'9" tall, so the best shorter height and taller height players have always learned and practiced an address posture technique to fit standard length clubs.

[Erin B]

1 minute ago, Louis_Posture said:

It's not just the imabalance (swing weight) that make over length clubs too challenging. It's the types of shots a golf course requires, especially for short irons and wedges, that has always had the tallest height Tour players opting for an address posture technique that fits standard length clubs.

Standard length clubs are ideally suited for players about 5'9" tall, so the best shorter height and taller height players have always learned and practiced an address posture technique to fit standard length clubs.

I can’t speak for tour players. I do know some great college players who’ve been fitted for their clubs. Length and lie mostly.

[funkyjudge]

35 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

You ask a good question and my answer comes from personal experience and observation of other players.

1) First a player needs to have reasonably effective swing technique; which can be developed from using basically any major OEM brand stock clubs produced within the past 20 years. By "reasonably effective technique" I mean a swing able to 9 out of 10 times strike straight tee shots 210 yards, hit a green from 150 yards 5 out of 10 times leaving the other 5 shots within 10 yards of the green,  from 100 yards out hit a green 7 out of 10 times leaving the other 3 shots within 10 yards of the green etc...

2) I guess 90% of people playing golf don't meet the above criteria, so rather than getting fit for clubs I believe they will be better served getting instruction and practicing.

3) For the 10% of players who do meet the above ball striking standards I believe their best sense strategy is to take clubs out on the golf course and play rounds of golf with them. Today's golf retail chains have 90-day satisfaction guaranteed programs. Ebay is filled with slightly used bargain priced equipment that can be bought and sold without materially significant financial loss, friends may have clubs they are no longer playing and are available for one to try for a round or two etc... Remember, players with consistently decent ball striking already understand their game , their swing, their shot tendencies etc...and if they're curious to learn what shots a bit heavier shaft, or a bit softer flex shaft, or driving iron club. or a lighter weight shaft, or a bit flatter lie angle  etc... might produce, today it's easy to try this or that on the course for a few rounds of golf.

A player who is taking lessons to get rid of, or minimize, swing flaws that cause inconsistent results can certainly improve more quickly with properly fitted clubs than with poorly fitted clubs.

[Louis_Posture]

2 minutes ago, funkyjudge said:

A player who is taking lessons to get rid of, or minimize, swing flaws that cause inconsistent results can certainly improve more quickly with properly fitted clubs than with poorly fitted clubs.

I believe you have it backwards. Specifically, one of the major problems with fittings is that fitters fit to the customer's swing faults. For example, for a faulty swing that is missing shots well right of target all day long a fitter might recommend a more upright lie angle.  So, the customer buys the recommended 2* upright lie and now his faulty swing his striking iron shots a little less to the right. The customer is pleased and the fitter believes he's done some good. But all that's really happened here is a promotion of the faulty swing.

I've talked to lots of fitters about this subject and all of them are o.k. with the business; they feel it's not their job to teach technique and if they can help reduce a guy's slice from 25 yards to 20 yards it's all good. And the customer is probably o.k. with it too. But if the goal is to actually produce a good player who hits proper golf shots then fitting to swing faults and, or dispensing band-aids is not the way to do it.

[Shrek74]

I think we're forgetting about one big thing with regards to the the large majority of the average golfer (who we're talking about here). They don't practice. At all. And a large majority of those don't even warm up before playing a round of golf.

On top of that, most won't go for lessons either. It's kind of crazy to think about, but that's very much how it goes. People will pay for new clubs but won't go get lessons to get better or spend any time at the range working on stuff.

Do people get lessons (I do)? Sure. Do people go to the range and work on stuff? Sure (I do sometimes). But not the large majority of folks, sad to say.

Now I could be way off base here, and if someone can show me stats to prove me wrong I will gladly admit to being wrong. But I have a pretty good hunch I'm not.

So the fitting of a golfer who won't get lessons and won't go practice is about the only way to help their game. That lie angle change, helps this golfer. Proper length clubs, helps this golfer. Proper weight and flex shafts, helps this golfer. And so on. This is really where fitting steps in, and sadly takes the place of lessons and practice for those golfers who won't do either.

Most of us here on the forum don't fall into this category, at least not for both sides of that coin. Some may get lessons but not spend hours at the range. Others here will go to the range multiple times a week working on stuff but won't go for lessons. While others will go and do both. That's just the nature of those of us here on the forum. But out there, fittings are the only way the majority of golfers will ever actually play better golf.

[Golfspy_CG2]

2 hours ago, Louis_Posture said:

What label do you give to a 90's shooting player?

I've already stated I am a terrible bowler. I am also bad at tennis and once took about 30 basketball free throw shots before making one. I do not feel "belittled" when someone tells me I am not good at a particular game. They happen to be right so why would I feel offended?

Better than average. Able to shoot in the 90s is better than 70% of all golfers.  Supported by USGA data 

[Erin B]

11 minutes ago, Shrek74 said:

I think we're forgetting about one big thing with regards to the the large majority of the average golfer (who we're talking about here). They don't practice. At all. And a large majority of those don't even warm up before playing a round of golf.

On top of that, most won't go for lessons either. It's kind of crazy to think about, but that's very much how it goes. People will pay for new clubs but won't go get lessons to get better or spend any time at the range working on stuff.

Do people get lessons (I do)? Sure. Do people go to the range and work on stuff? Sure (I do sometimes). But not the large majority of folks, sad to say.

Now I could be way off base here, and if someone can show me stats to prove me wrong I will gladly admit to being wrong. But I have a pretty good hunch I'm not.

So the fitting of a golfer who won't get lessons and won't go practice is about the only way to help their game. That lie angle change, helps this golfer. Proper length clubs, helps this golfer. Proper weight and flex shafts, helps this golfer. And so on. This is really where fitting steps in, and sadly takes the place of lessons and practice for those golfers who won't do either.

Most of us here on the forum don't fall into this category, at least not for both sides of that coin. Some may get lessons but not spend hours at the range. Others here will go to the range multiple times a week working on stuff but won't go for lessons. While others will go and do both. That's just the nature of those of us here on the forum. But out there, fittings are the only way the majority of golfers will ever actually play better golf.

And remember, every golfer’s swing is different. Every pro golfer’s swing is different.  Some have an out to in, some in to out swing, some are quick tempo some aren’t. Rahm has a very distinct swing compared to Woods or Watson. 

[funkyjudge]

48 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

It's not just the imabalance (swing weight) that make over length clubs too challenging. It's the types of shots a golf course requires, especially for short irons and wedges, that has always had the tallest height Tour players opting for an address posture technique that fits standard length clubs.

Standard length clubs are ideally suited for players about 5'9" tall, so the best shorter height and taller height players have always learned and practiced an address posture technique to fit standard length clubs.

Too bad that what you say is almost completely untrue. I have done work for more than 40 PGA Tour and Senior PGA Tour/Champions Tour players, and many more of the taller players (Matt Kuchar, Vijay Singh, Andy Bean, Padraig Harrington, Rocky Thompson, Peter Jacobsen, etc.) used over-length clubs than the few (Keegan Bradley, MAYBE Tony Finau) who use or used standard length clubs. The reason that I say MAYBE for Tony Finau is because when I did work for him in the tour equipment trailers he was playing his irons at + 1/2” and his fairway woods and driver at longer-than-standard lengths, as well.

Phil Mickelson, who is taller than average male height but not exceptionally tall, plays all of his clubs at longer-than-standard lengths, or at least he did through 2014, which was the last year that I worked regularly on the PGA Tour and at majors.

[funkyjudge]

47 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

I believe you have it backwards. Specifically, one of the major problems with fittings is that fitters fit to the customer's swing faults. For example, for a faulty swing that is missing shots well right of target all day long a fitter might recommend a more upright lie angle.  So, the customer buys the recommended 2* upright lie and now his faulty swing his striking iron shots a little less to the right. The customer is pleased and the fitter believes he's done some good. But all that's really happened here is a promotion of the faulty swing.

I've talked to lots of fitters about this subject and all of them are o.k. with the business; they feel it's not their job to teach technique and if they can help reduce a guy's slice from 25 yards to 20 yards it's all good. And the customer is probably o.k. with it too. But if the goal is to actually produce a good player who hits proper golf shots then fitting to swing faults and, or dispensing band-aids is not the way to do it.

A good Clubfitter certainly does not generally “fit to the golfer’s swing faults”, if that golfer is taking lessons, or has been taking lessons and is truly committed to correcting those swing faults. Properly fit golf clubs are not a swing fault band-aid!

[funkyjudge]

By the way, since it is bound to come up eventually in this thread, Tiger Woods is only 6’-1” tall and throughout his professional golfing career, he has always played clubs that are 1/4” to 1/2” longer than “standard” lengths.

I have fitted golfers who are 6’-3” to 6’-4” and who have very long arms who play standard-length clubs and also golfers who are 5-10” to 6’1” with shorter arms who best fit into clubs that are longer. Golfing posture and swing plane also play a major role in a golfer’s ideal club lengths.

Edited Friday at 03:43 PM by funkyjudge

[Michael.Sandoval33]

I'm someone who shoots in the 90s but playing better from both practice and the clubs I was fitted into. The Qi10 Max, which I did a fitting for pre-review was very beneficial. Otherwise, I would be swinging a shaft that plain doesn't work. The Titleist Vokey fitting was great, and I believe that fitting was equally important as my scoring shots have improved from it. 

I have hit a lot of irons thanks to Roger Dunn and I know which ones work for me and I would get fitted to the lofts/lies and the shaft. But, that is just me. 

[Erin B]

47 minutes ago, Michael.Sandoval33 said:

I'm someone who shoots in the 90s but playing better from both practice and the clubs I was fitted into. The Qi10 Max, which I did a fitting for pre-review was very beneficial. Otherwise, I would be swinging a shaft that plain doesn't work. The Titleist Vokey fitting was great, and I believe that fitting was equally important as my scoring shots have improved from it. 

I have hit a lot of irons thanks to Roger Dunn and I know which ones work for me and I would get fitted to the lofts/lies and the shaft. But, that is just me. 

My Vokey wedge fitting was very successful! Much better than buying them off the shelf! The SM10s are perfect! Of course they’re also bent 2 degrees flat based on my fit. 

Hard to see the numbers but the 52 is 12F, the 48 is 10F and the 56 is 08M, again based off my fitting and what bounce and profile was best suited for me.

[funkyjudge]

4 hours ago, Shrek74 said:

I think we're forgetting about one big thing with regards to the the large majority of the average golfer (who we're talking about here). They don't practice. At all. And a large majority of those don't even warm up before playing a round of golf.

On top of that, most won't go for lessons either. It's kind of crazy to think about, but that's very much how it goes. People will pay for new clubs but won't go get lessons to get better or spend any time at the range working on stuff.

Do people get lessons (I do)? Sure. Do people go to the range and work on stuff? Sure (I do sometimes). But not the large majority of folks, sad to say.

Now I could be way off base here, and if someone can show me stats to prove me wrong I will gladly admit to being wrong. But I have a pretty good hunch I'm not.

So the fitting of a golfer who won't get lessons and won't go practice is about the only way to help their game. That lie angle change, helps this golfer. Proper length clubs, helps this golfer. Proper weight and flex shafts, helps this golfer. And so on. This is really where fitting steps in, and sadly takes the place of lessons and practice for those golfers who won't do either.

Most of us here on the forum don't fall into this category, at least not for both sides of that coin. Some may get lessons but not spend hours at the range. Others here will go to the range multiple times a week working on stuff but won't go for lessons. While others will go and do both. That's just the nature of those of us here on the forum. But out there, fittings are the only way the majority of golfers will ever actually play better golf.

You are spot-on regarding the majority of casual amateur golfers. They rarely if ever practice, generally don’t warm up prior to a round of golf, and the vast majority of them don’t ever take a lesson. Because these golfers don’t practice, lessons almost never help them to get better at the game.

These golfers who don’t practice and basically refuse to take lessons are unlikely to get fitted for golf clubs, and if they do so  their expectations are almost always unrealistic. Whenever I receive a call to book a fitting, one of the first questions I ask is what the golfer is looking to achieve by getting fitted for clubs. I also ask whether they are currently taking lessons, or if they have done so fairly recently, and if they are actively working on what has been recommended in their lessons. If their expectations are totally unrealistic, or if they have no intention to implement and ingrain the changes proposed in their lessons, I won’t even accept them as fitting customers.

If a golfer wants an equipment evaluation, this is exactly what I do. THIS IS MOST DEFINITELY NOT A CLUBFITTING SESSION, although it does entail some of the basic tasks that I perform during a fitting. I only focus on the basic items that happen in a true clubfitting: evaluating club lengths, lie angles, shaft flex(es), and whether the type of clubs and their lofts are appropriate for the golfer and the swing that they present in this equipment evaluation.

Beyond the above, other than a set of recommendations, there is little to nothing that I can do for these casual recreational golfers who neither practice nor take lessons.

Most of the golfers that I see in my clubfitting business are highly-motivated and dedicated golfers and they generally work with a pro or “swing coach” on a regular basis. These are golfers that I can help to fine-tune their equipment and they are also golfers who will most greatly benefit from a professional clubfitting session.

 

Edited Friday at 12:39 AM by funkyjudge
Typos

[RetiredBoomer]

Delete

 

 

 

Edited Friday at 01:04 AM by RetiredBoomer
delete post

[Louis_Posture]

4 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

.  

As for retail chains offering 90-day free returns, I just took a peek at the PGA Superstore policy here 

https://www.pgatoursuperstore.com/returns-page.html?srsltid=AfmBOoqOkbnricmM8zyYGFzs1cLp63CvIykBc6pzUn-0ylLiI3dE22Bi . 

  

 I believe Worldwide Golf (Golf Mart, Roger Dunn, Edwin Watts etc...) and TGW.com offer 90-day playability satisfaction guarantee. 

 

 

[Louis_Posture]

3 hours ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

Better than average. Able to shoot in the 90s is better than 70% of all golfers.  Supported by USGA data 

I agree with those numbers.

[DaveP043]

4 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

 I believe Worldwide Golf (Golf Mart, Roger Dunn, Edwin Watts etc...) and TGW.com offer 90-day playability satisfaction guarantee.

I checked one, one that has stores near me, so I wasn't dealing with what I believe.  Have you checked the limitations for any of those?

[Louis_Posture]

2 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I checked one, one that has stores near me, so I wasn't dealing with what I believe.  Have you checked the limitations for any of those?

I am not sure what you mean by "limitations"? For example TGW offers 90-day playability guarantee on custom orders, so one can try a driver or fairway metal or hybrid or iron set or wedge  with a custom shaft without risk of financial loss.

A few weeks ago my son wanted to try a driving iron. Golfmart had several brands models of driving irons which he swung within their hitting bay and he liked best the Mizuno Pro Fli Hi 3-iron loft with SteelFiber shaft, so we bought that one. He's now played 5 rounds swinging that club off 3 or 4 tee boxes per round, and my guess is that he will want to keep it instead of returning it within the 90-day window. The club has produced for him what we were looking for which is a reliable straight shot 220 to 230 yard tee box club. If the shot results were not good for him we probably would return it for a different brand-model driving iron or maybe return it and order the same Mizuno head with a custom shaft.

[cnosil]

30 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

I am not sure what you mean by "limitations"? For example TGW offers 90-day playability guarantee on custom orders, so one can try a driver or fairway metal or hybrid or iron set or wedge  with a custom shaft without risk of financial loss.

A few weeks ago my son wanted to try a driving iron. Golfmart had several brands models of driving irons which he swung within their hitting bay and he liked best the Mizuno Pro Fli Hi 3-iron loft with SteelFiber shaft, so we bought that one. He's now played 5 rounds swinging that club off 3 or 4 tee boxes per round, and my guess is that he will want to keep it instead of returning it within the 90-day window. The club has produced for him what we were looking for which is a reliable straight shot 220 to 230 yard tee box club. If the shot results were not good for him we probably would return it for a different brand-model driving iron or maybe return it and order the same Mizuno head with a custom shaft.

Why would anyone need to return clubs or do anything custom?   Everything should work the same;  isn't that part of your discussion of fittings are a SCAM? 

Read the TGW guarantee,  there are limitations:  https://www.tgw.com/playability   I have to pay for shipping both ways,  limited on number of clubs that can be returned per year, there is a price minimum, and I get a store credit and not my money refunded.