Shaft Hack - The Otto Phlex Journey

[Bang60]

I got diddly squat lol, you guys bid too high...

[Bang60]

On 11/13/2022 at 3:57 AM, Gripit said:

Yeah, I didn't go to the range, either,  To try to keep apples to apples, I actually went to 2nd swing and bought the exact driver I game in a lower loft (9*) at a pretty low price.  Installed the PLB L to 45.25" playing length and got a D2 swingweight.  First time out, I just hit some 2nd drives with the PLB.  When I was very careful with my swing, the ball flight was MAJESTIC...but the majority were a fade flight.  I felt like I had to really manipulate the club through the ball to keep it on line.  So I decided to actually PLAY for a fade (I don't normally do that) and played a couple more rounds with the PLB exclusively, using it on every tee that I could and left my trusty 3w in the bag.  The only good thing I found is that the PLB eliminated the left side miss completely; I didn't miss a fairway! But the consistent distance and feel wasn't there.  I am convinced it is my swing; I just can't seem to get myself smooth enough and I think that's why I am fading the ball.

The other thing I am wondering about is the PLB itself.  I have tried the PLB before and that shaft never ever felt good, it always had a "boardy" feel to me.  That's what's happening now.  I thought the L flex would make a difference but I am still not feeling the clubhead in the swing; so maybe the shaft "profile" is not what I need.  When I swing my gamer driver, I can feel the clubhead, but not with the PLB and the swingweight is the same.

I am still interested in this hack and am now thinking of trying a different shaft brand that has a different bend/flex/torque profile to see if that would make a difference.  But the really important thing for me is...I'm having FUN doing this! (I apologize for the long post).

I know what your going through I went through that same thing with my 9ish shafts 8ish heads and tried all those shafts in all those heads, I was reading this at that time thinking this is bs lol I'm trying so many combinations and it won't work for me. And so I said f### it I bought a lady's shaft because the seller reduced the price down to $14.99 with good grip and Titleist adapter I'm in, just amazing results so like you say you've not got the right combinations yet and yes I got lucky but try to stick who knows what happens...

[Gripit]

On 11/12/2022 at 4:33 PM, Bang60 said:

.... Now I learn from all you GUYS who are brave enough to post your experience with golf club repair etc and I reciprocate hoping I can help those starting out, I like the civilized chat to and fro about what we're doing and how this is the best way imho etc etc... 

Right on, my friend!  I've been on other golf forums where the posters insulted others and were just plain mean, nasty, rude and crude.  I too enjoy very much MGS forums "civilized chat" and have learned a LOT from the guys posting here.  

[Marv Town]

I have a 5.5.R 50g on Gen 4. 0811 XF  it seems to work well. I just thought that was how PXG drivers feel. It's long and straight it did take some getting used to it

[Rickp]

1 hour ago, Marv Town said:

I have a 5.5.R 50g on Gen 4. 0811 XF  it seems to work well. I just thought that was how PXG drivers feel. It's long and straight it did take some getting used to it

I’m into my 2nd week with PXG 0211 driver, cypher 40 5.  Takes getting used to because it wants to Fade but it’s coming around.

[azstu324]

On 11/11/2022 at 6:33 AM, Bobbers said:

I've done it, you obviously need a pretty stout shim, and really felt no difference relative to "feel" or overall performance.  If it were me?  I'd give it a go.  Worst case scenario is you end up undoing the modification and selling the shaft.

So I think I found my home for the Evenflow! I've been really interested in the Maltby 14° 3 wood for some time, and also giving a glued hosel a try. I'll be getting the KE4 Tour TC on Wednesday and am super excited to put the Garafalloy GWX in it. I'm doubtful but still optimistic that it will squeak out some improvements over my beloved Cobra F6 3/4. The reviews really seem to make me believe that it might be possible. 

While looking over the Maltby catalog, I saw the 21° HyWay Utility wood! This one has a .335 hosel instead of the normal hybrid/iron sizes. I wasn't getting along with my Cobra F8 5/6 wood so I sold it. I do like idea of a 7-ish wood and this seems to be a really good gap filler to sit between my 24° cobra RadSpeed Hy and my 3 wood. Concept reminds me of the Callaway Super Hybrid which I've also had my eye on. 

I'll wait to see how the 3 wood performs and use that to determine if I buy the HyWay. Soon I'll have all my woods converted to some iteration of the OttoPhlex.

[Bang60]

4 hours ago, Gripit said:

Right on, my friend!  I've been on other golf forums where the posters insulted others and were just plain mean, nasty, rude and crude.  I too enjoy very much MGS forums "civilized chat" and have learned a LOT from the guys posting here.  

I had the temerity to ask management WHY insulting comments were ok and my objection to said comments deleted and the person who made those comments won most popular post that day, but wait it gets better I told them if my objection was not acceptable I would not post on there blog again, I was banned and obviously I'm inconsolable.....

[Bobbers]

13 minutes ago, Bang60 said:

I had the temerity to ask management WHY insulting comments were ok and my objection to said comments deleted and the person who made those comments won most popular post that day, but wait it gets better I told them if my objection was not acceptable I would not post on there blog again, I was banned and obviously I'm inconsolable.....

I'm not psychic but something tells me you'll get through your grieving pretty quickly...

[Bang60]

29 minutes ago, Bobbers said:

I'm not psychic but something tells me you'll get through your grieving pretty quickly...

Yeah Damn right...

[GolfSpy TCB]

I spent some time at my local PGATSS playing in the used club section. They had enough variety for me to determine I need to be very careful about how I go about a potential "L" flex in the irons.  Granted, I was subject to the the specific head installed in the various sets, but from a feel and consistency standpoint, one stood out above all others.  From a sheer distance standpoint one other stood out.   Then.. one that was the best mix of feel, consistency and distance was a clear front runner. 

I hit 7 irons from the following sets:

• Mizuno JPX 921 HM - Recoil F2 flex
• Titleist T300 - Mitsubishi Tensei Red A flex
• Cobra LTDx - KBS Graphite A Flex
• Wilson D9 Steel - Tensei Blue R Flex
• Wilson Staff CB - Dynamic Gold S300 Flex
• Callaway DCB - RCH45 "L" flex

Of the options above, the worst feeling was the Callaway with the "L" flex shaft.  

Best Feel and consistency goes to the Wilson Staff CB with S300 shafts.  I was on or near my target line with every swing. But due to the difference in lofts... the 7 iron was 1 or 2 clubs shorter than some of the other options. 

Best distance goes to the Wilson D9.  With a loft of 26*... the ball flew 20 -30 yards farther than the Staff CB.  But felt like hitting rocks with an aluminum softball bat, and the dispersion was right and left.  Again.. this may be the shaft selection compared... but in my small sample size, it is what it is.

The best combination of feel, consistency and distance goes to the Mizuno JPX921 HM with the Recoil F2 shaft.  Enough so, that I will be scheduling a fitting sooner than later to be fit into the 923 HM or HMP, and will be looking very strongly at the Recoil shaft in flexes Stiff through Ladies.  I'm not sure if the S300 shaft in the WS CB was the reason for the consistency, but I want to find out what I'm giving up by moving from the Stiff shaft compared to the Reg, Senior or Ladies.  If the dispersion is tighter- and the distance is reasonable.. that will be a tough thing to pass up. 

So bringing it back to the purpose of this thread... while I haven't completely walked away from the idea of the "L" flex in an iron shaft, I will need some pretty strong convincing at the this point to make that leap.    

[Bobbers]

30 minutes ago, Golfspy_TCB said:

I spent some time at my local PGATSS playing in the used club section. They had enough variety for me to determine I need to be very careful about how I go about a potential "L" flex in the irons.  Granted, I was subject to the the specific head installed in the various sets, but from a feel and consistency standpoint, one stood out above all others.  From a sheer distance standpoint one other stood out.   Then.. one that was the best mix of feel, consistency and distance was a clear front runner. 

I hit 7 irons from the following sets:

• Mizuno JPX 921 HM - Recoil F2 flex
• Titleist T300 - Mitsubishi Tensei Red A flex
• Cobra LTDx - KBS Graphite A Flex
• Wilson D9 Steel - Tensei Blue R Flex
• Wilson Staff CB - Dynamic Gold S300 Flex
• Callaway DCB - RCH45 "L" flex

Of the options above, the worst feeling was the Callaway with the "L" flex shaft.  

Best Feel and consistency goes to the Wilson Staff CB with S300 shafts.  I was on or near my target line with every swing. But due to the difference in lofts... the 7 iron was 1 or 2 clubs shorter than some of the other options. 

Best distance goes to the Wilson D9.  With a loft of 26*... the ball flew 20 -30 yards farther than the Staff CB.  But felt like hitting rocks with an aluminum softball bat, and the dispersion was right and left.  Again.. this may be the shaft selection compared... but in my small sample size, it is what it is.

The best combination of feel, consistency and distance goes to the Mizuno JPX921 HM with the Recoil F2 shaft.  Enough so, that I will be scheduling a fitting sooner than later to be fit into the 923 HM or HMP, and will be looking very strongly at the Recoil shaft in flexes Stiff through Ladies.  I'm not sure if the S300 shaft in the WS CB was the reason for the consistency, but I want to find out what I'm giving up by moving from the Stiff shaft compared to the Reg, Senior or Ladies.  If the dispersion is tighter- and the distance is reasonable.. that will be a tough thing to pass up. 

So bringing it back to the purpose of this thread... while I haven't completely walked away from the idea of the "L" flex in an iron shaft, I will need some pretty strong convincing at the this point to make that leap.    

The Recoil is a great shaft in my experience.  Trying it in various flexes should be a very interesting experience for you.  I know I, for one, look forward to the data it generates. 

[carter18]

So I got my PLB 45 in last week and although I could swear I ordered the A flex, a R flex arrived. I double checked on ebay and what do you know, I had somehow selected the R.  I did some work last week to get the swing weight down to the D0-D1 which took a bit of trial and error. Ultimately, I had to remove the slider weight on my Callaway Epic Flash in order to keep the overall weight in a desirable range. (I am about as green as can be when it comes to club building other than changing grips.) I have now ordered some butt end weights to play around with in the future. Unfortunately, we are experiencing a cold snap in Nashville and with other plans in the way I was not able to get to the driving range last week prior to my Saturday tee time.  I did set up my net in the back yard and take a few swings with the driver, but that is not the same and even with my swing caddy showing ball speed and carry distance, I don't trust the driver practice unless I can see it fly.  My round Saturday being set, I took my gamer shaft as well as the new OP shaft to the range to see if I could justify gaming the new one with little to basically no prior practice session.  High Saturday was 39, it was around 34 when I teed off and never really got over 37 the entire round.  Weather insight included to basically say this round and first update are an outlier and I will need further testing. I took the swing caddie to the range as well to try to get an idea on distance.  It was so cold and I was so bundled up that I was basically hovering in the 107-109 swing speed range. I seriously doubt if I much eclipsed these numbers during the round. I generally liked the ball flight and distance I was seeing on the range enough to just go for it and see what happened during the actual round.  Was paired up with 1 other crazy yahoo willing to brave the cold and piped the first drive center cut what I would estimate around a 265 carry.  It being so cold, I can't say I would have expected any distance difference with my gamer shaft setup.  I felt like overall I did see what some of the other posters noticed with a tighter dispersion throughout the round.  I will absolutely need to get some range time in to dial in the tempo feeling and do some numbers comparisons. One note is I do not like the sound of the head with the slider weight removed. I ordered some grip in weight inserts today and hope to maintain the correct swing weight while adding the weight back in the driver head. I do realize this will bring up my overall weight but if I can get back to the sound I am used to, I think the added intrinsic value will be worth it to me.  Only testing will tell though! Enjoy this thread, I was telling the guy I was paired with about it and enjoyed watching as the glassiness started taking over his eyes.  Not for the faint of heart? More to come. Thanks!

[cnosil]

Managed to get to my local golf store this evening and figured I'd look around for some drivers with lightweight senior flex shafts.   Found a few including some from the G400 line so I gave them a go and one from the Callaway line.  They have a GC3 as their launch monitor so I cam going to assume the numbers are close to what the MGS GC Quad registers.  The general finding was that I was seeing less ballspeed and carry than I was getting with my driver on the GC Quad.   That said I did have fairly high spin.    Going to see if I can do some more experimenting in store or at MGS to test this theory out a bit more. 

[Bang60]

6 hours ago, Golfspy_TCB said:

I spent some time at my local PGATSS playing in the used club section. They had enough variety for me to determine I need to be very careful about how I go about a potential "L" flex in the irons.  Granted, I was subject to the the specific head installed in the various sets, but from a feel and consistency standpoint, one stood out above all others.  From a sheer distance standpoint one other stood out.   Then.. one that was the best mix of feel, consistency and distance was a clear front runner. 

I hit 7 irons from the following sets:

• Mizuno JPX 921 HM - Recoil F2 flex
• Titleist T300 - Mitsubishi Tensei Red A flex
• Cobra LTDx - KBS Graphite A Flex
• Wilson D9 Steel - Tensei Blue R Flex
• Wilson Staff CB - Dynamic Gold S300 Flex
• Callaway DCB - RCH45 "L" flex

Of the options above, the worst feeling was the Callaway with the "L" flex shaft.  

Best Feel and consistency goes to the Wilson Staff CB with S300 shafts.  I was on or near my target line with every swing. But due to the difference in lofts... the 7 iron was 1 or 2 clubs shorter than some of the other options. 

Best distance goes to the Wilson D9.  With a loft of 26*... the ball flew 20 -30 yards farther than the Staff CB.  But felt like hitting rocks with an aluminum softball bat, and the dispersion was right and left.  Again.. this may be the shaft selection compared... but in my small sample size, it is what it is.

The best combination of feel, consistency and distance goes to the Mizuno JPX921 HM with the Recoil F2 shaft.  Enough so, that I will be scheduling a fitting sooner than later to be fit into the 923 HM or HMP, and will be looking very strongly at the Recoil shaft in flexes Stiff through Ladies.  I'm not sure if the S300 shaft in the WS CB was the reason for the consistency, but I want to find out what I'm giving up by moving from the Stiff shaft compared to the Reg, Senior or Ladies.  If the dispersion is tighter- and the distance is reasonable.. that will be a tough thing to pass up. 

So bringing it back to the purpose of this thread... while I haven't completely walked away from the idea of the "L" flex in an iron shaft, I will need some pretty strong convincing at the this point to make that leap.    

I knew the Mizuno was going to win when I read that list, I'm gaming Mizuno MP32 Pw 8 and MP57 6iron for awhile as I like the clean smooth contact . These are part of a matched set but I only have the 3 irons in play, reducing the weight I carry. I'm thinking of trying a lady shaft in the 5 iron if it fits, the Mizuno irons have Dynamic Gold Super Light stiff steel shafts...

[Bang60]

Play 9 this am to practice the mizuno’s and I think we have a winner, these mizuno irons are good better than I first thought, finally getting the soft buttery feel you’ll talk about PLus back spin stop to 2feet from 50 metre chip shot with the wedge. Couldn’t hit this better in my dreams, told my mate I love his eyes ..

Driver wasn’t so good to start but came good, my mate said he would like my back swing as I turn back and around so tight. I’ve realised remembered I don’t need to try or help my back swing because it’s not got short as I’ve got older, so I try to remember to hit though the ball and I think I hit 250 metres because I was further down the fairway than ever before but didn’t check the numbers all good  

[Bobbers]

Finally got the PLB L shafts for my fairway woods.  Took forever.  Ordered them from Billy Bob's on 10/30, got a note that they'd shipped on 11/3 and then...no update whatsoever on the UPS tracking site.  Waited and waited, finally reached out to Billy Bob's last Friday and got the "hmm, must be sitting at a shipper somewhere.  UPS, meanwhile, was adamant that a label had been created but they'd never received the package.

Their VP of sales wasn't, in my opinion, helpful whatsoever.  I'm not their largest customer but I several hundreds of dollars per year with them and have for some time.  Contacted the person who I believe to be their customer service manager and "presto", got notified last night that a package was due today; she overnighted them to my home.

Now if I can just get the four inches of snow we've picked up to disappear...

[azstu324]

1 hour ago, Bobbers said:

Finally got the PLB L shafts for my fairway woods.  Took forever.  Ordered them from Billy Bob's on 10/30, got a note that they'd shipped on 11/3 and then...no update whatsoever on the UPS tracking site.  Waited and waited, finally reached out to Billy Bob's last Friday and got the "hmm, must be sitting at a shipper somewhere.  UPS, meanwhile, was adamant that a label had been created but they'd never received the package.

Their VP of sales wasn't, in my opinion, helpful whatsoever.  I'm not their largest customer but I several hundreds of dollars per year with them and have for some time.  Contacted the person who I believe to be their customer service manager and "presto", got notified last night that a package was due today; she overnighted them to my home.

Now if I can just get the four inches of snow we've picked up to disappear...

I wouldn't at all be surprised to hear them say "well oddly there is a national shortage of Garafalloy PLB shafts. Somehow there's a wild demand for them all of a sudden"

[Bobbers]

9 hours ago, azstu324 said:

I wouldn't at all be surprised to hear them say "well oddly there is a national shortage of Garafalloy PLB shafts. Somehow there's a wild demand for them all of a sudden"

Oddly enough that was exactly what my concern was.  Sooner or later, if this catches on, those shafts are going to become unicorns.

[Bang60]

21 hours ago, Bobbers said:

Finally got the PLB L shafts for my fairway woods.  Took forever.  Ordered them from Billy Bob's on 10/30, got a note that they'd shipped on 11/3 and then...no update whatsoever on the UPS tracking site.  Waited and waited, finally reached out to Billy Bob's last Friday and got the "hmm, must be sitting at a shipper somewhere.  UPS, meanwhile, was adamant that a label had been created but they'd never received the package.

Their VP of sales wasn't, in my opinion, helpful whatsoever.  I'm not their largest customer but I several hundreds of dollars per year with them and have for some time.  Contacted the person who I believe to be their customer service manager and "presto", got notified last night that a package was due today; she overnighted them to my home.

Now if I can just get the four inches of snow we've picked up to disappear...

Good luck changing mother nature lol...

[Bobbers]

36 minutes ago, Bang60 said:

Good luck changing mother nature lol...

Oddly enough we have a thing here in the upper midwest of the US called "the January thaw" where for some reason it's not unusual for there to be a few days in the upper 30's-40 degrees.  Hope springs eternal...

[vandyland]

Oh man, I might be about to buy a ProLaunch Blue in A flex. Current swing speed is 102-106 mph so let's see how we get along...

[azstu324]

34 minutes ago, vandyland said:

Oh man, I might be about to buy a ProLaunch Blue in A flex. Current swing speed is 102-106 mph so let's see how we get along...

Awesome! Welcome to the club!

[vandyland]

Well actually, I have a few more trackman sessions left at Golf Galaxy....maybe I see what they have on the old fitting cart for the ladies and seniors with Cobra adapters....

[GolfSpy TCB]

Interesting experiment and result today while playing 9 holes.  I used the O-PH build for the first 3 drives and the standard shaft for tge last 4 drives.  What I found is it took me a few holes to adjust back to the standard shaft.  My first two drives were hit high and on the toe.  I firmly believe this has more to do with the shaft flex than a bad swing.  By the 4th drive I was able to catch the face squarely and about 270 yards with roll out..  But it didn't feel nearly as easy as with the O-PH build.  Will probably switch the shaft back to the "L" tomorrow.  

[azstu324]

4 hours ago, Golfspy_TCB said:

Interesting experiment and result today while playing 9 holes.  I used the O-PH build for the first 3 drives and the standard shaft for tge last 4 drives.  What I found is it took me a few holes to adjust back to the standard shaft.  My first two drives were hit high and on the toe.  I firmly believe this has more to do with the shaft flex than a bad swing.  By the 4th drive I was able to catch the face squarely and about 270 yards with roll out..  But it didn't feel nearly as easy as with the O-PH build.  Will probably switch the shaft back to the "L" tomorrow.  

@Golfspy_TCB @GolfSpy_APH @GolfSpy_BOS @Golfspy_Lukes or any other mods following along that I may have missed, I realize you might not have this level of pull with the MGS brass, but any chances that they've caught wind of our little runaway project here and might consider doing a Golf Science episode? I'd say that by now we've got enough validation to show that there's something in this worth looking at. 

How friggin ridonkulous would that be?!

[Bang60]

3 hours ago, Golfspy_TCB said:

Interesting experiment and result today while playing 9 holes.  I used the O-PH build for the first 3 drives and the standard shaft for tge last 4 drives.  What I found is it took me a few holes to adjust back to the standard shaft.  My first two drives were hit high and on the toe.  I firmly believe this has more to do with the shaft flex than a bad swing.  By the 4th drive I was able to catch the face squarely and about 270 yards with roll out..  But it didn't feel nearly as easy as with the O-PH build.  Will probably switch the shaft back to the "L" tomorrow.  

I couldn't do that hit 3 L-shaft then 4 other shaft, maybe I got lucky with the L-shaft I got because it's so good for me. I'm looking for a PLB shaft to try it on my SIM 9deg driver head, I'm trying to either find a close match or play the lucky dip with a 43inch L-shaft 40grams?

[GolfSpy_APH]

9 hours ago, azstu324 said:

@Golfspy_TCB @GolfSpy_APH @GolfSpy_BOS @Golfspy_Lukes or any other mods following along that I may have missed, I realize you might not have this level of pull with the MGS brass, but any chances that they've caught wind of our little runaway project here and might consider doing a Golf Science episode? I'd say that by now we've got enough validation to show that there's something in this worth looking at. 

How friggin ridonkulous would that be?!

It's been brought up to them and we have given this thread to Bennett to promote so time will tell!

[Bobbers]

On 11/16/2022 at 6:44 PM, azstu324 said:

I wouldn't at all be surprised to hear them say "well oddly there is a national shortage of Garafalloy PLB shafts. Somehow there's a wild demand for them all of a sudden"

Some good news in my opinion.

Just got done doing the adapters for the two PLB L flex shafts that arrived recently.  As those of you who build clubs know, most shafts have a label near the butt that indicate the date of manufacture.  The two I just received?  Built on September 27, 2022.  Which tells me that Grafalloy still has these in their product plans and new inventory is being produced.

[vandyland]

I am (hopefully) going to Golf Galaxy to try this out today on the indoor trackman. Currently I have a Radspeed XB with a 72 g stiff shaft in it (mid kick - off brand $20 shaft I like waaaaay more than the Hzrdus Smoke Yellow that was in there) and I butt cut it about 1.5" so it plays shorter and already plays to a D0 swing weight or so as a result. I replaced the 6g weight in the back with a 12g but I have them both so I can lower the swing weight (if needed) by putting the 6g back in, albeit, it is only 6 grams difference (3 SW points?). Looking at the Cobra website the call senior "lite" shafts, I believe and their stock options in the "light shaft" are UST Helium Nanocore, Project X Hzrdus Smoke iM10 and Project X Hzrdus RDX Blue.

Question: Not sure what Golf Galaxy will have but of the 3 senior options above, I presume UST Helium Nanocore would be best (maybe only)? It is a 45g shaft (which would be 27 g drop if my current shaft and this shaft were apples to apples but I trimmed my shaft so I may be more like 15-20?) with a low kick point with 6.3 torque (not sure if that matters). The Hzrdus(s) only go down to 5.5 and 60 grams so that doesn't really seem like it is an option. 

[azstu324]

21 minutes ago, vandyland said:

I am (hopefully) going to Golf Galaxy to try this out today on the indoor trackman. Currently I have a Radspeed XB with a 72 g stiff shaft in it (mid kick - off brand $20 shaft I like waaaaay more than the Hzrdus Smoke Yellow that was in there) and I butt cut it about 1.5" so it plays shorter and already plays to a D0 swing weight or so as a result. I replaced the 6g weight in the back with a 12g but I have them both so I can lower the swing weight (if needed) by putting the 6g back in, albeit, it is only 6 grams difference (3 SW points?). Looking at the Cobra website the call senior "lite" shafts, I believe and their stock options in the "light shaft" are UST Helium Nanocore, Project X Hzrdus Smoke iM10 and Project X Hzrdus RDX Blue.

Question: Not sure what Golf Galaxy will have but of the 3 senior options above, I presume UST Helium Nanocore would be best (maybe only)? It is a 45g shaft (which would be 27 g drop if my current shaft and this shaft were apples to apples but I trimmed my shaft so I may be more like 15-20?) with a low kick point with 6.3 torque (not sure if that matters). The Hzrdus(s) only go down to 5.5 and 60 grams so that doesn't really seem like it is an option. 

I'd say it sounds like you might have a good option with the UST. The only concern.. but the jury might still be out on this, is the torque. That 6.5 is pretty high when looking to impart a 105+ mph swing on a softer/lighter flex. The theory is that you might get some extra torsional flex which could impact disbursement. BUT.. that's just the theory and I'm not sure if it's been proven or disproven yet. The Garafalloy PLB that seems to work for many is a 5.0° which I thought would be a stretch but so far it's working out for quite a few. 

Keep us posted!