what is the proper pace of play when it's packed?

[Rockerdude]

So i've come across this a few times where the course just sends people out without intervals, as soon as you can hit you can go. Now, our group usually stays with pace but being casual we don't necessarily feel comfortable hitting if it'll be close to the people in front. We don't take extra long, and if someone will definitely not reach then they hit first. Usually the people in front of us have like 2 more foursomes in front of them anyways so it's not like we'll be able to go anywhere. The problem comes from groups behind us where they're getting frustrated and start hitting near or into us or telling us to go. If we're playing slow we try and let people through but when there's literally no where to go, is there a "best" way to handle this? Usually we talk to them and they realize that there's no where to go but other times they don't get it and demand we hit into people or as soon as it's 5 yards clear. Are you supposed to hit into people and wait 5 mins at your spot for people to get off the green and hit ASAP, fully knowing you'll be waiting on the tee for them because they'll also be waiting for the group in front? FYI, usually the marshalls don't really do much with groups that are hitting 2-3 balls and taking a while to try and find their ball.

 

Hopefully this makes sense,

 

thanks

[RickyBobby_PR]

The expected pace of play is whatever the course says it is. If there is no stated pace of play policy or it’s not enforced then there’s no expected pace of play.

As for the situation of people getting frustrated behind you all you can do is show them you are waiting on the group in front of you and they are waiting on the group ing front of them and there’s nowhere to go.

if they don’t like the answer that’s their issue 

As to when you should hit, the group should be ready to hit as soon at the landing area is cleared. If it’s the green once the group is out of the way of possibly being hit your group should already have made distance and club decision and ready to go. That’s what ready golf is and it has nothing to do with the group in front of you and waiting again on the next hole. 

[golferguy2727]

At my course, standard pace of play is 4h 15m.  At peak times, on course people capture group times are 9 and 18 holes and that is logged.  If play slows down, on course people  will find source of slowdown and will first usher along, then warn, then escalate.  If warning or escalation happens, the group gets a "letter" from the committee and the group is asked to attend a review meeting. Any subsequent slow play issues result in suspension of privileges, such as peak time bookings etc.  During off peak times, times will drift closer to 4h 30m but in most cases, the players during that time typically will not / do not complain about on course slowness.  But if a complaint is received in the Proshop, the steps above are actioned equally during off peak times.

I can say, this seems to produce a remarkably consistent round time experience at the course.  Of course, some people want to play in 3h 15m and the peak time lottery is their opportunity to get the "faster" times.  Since we do a crossover pattern (early peak times on both nines) there can be conflict between last groups of the crossover and the early starters, but that is usually well managed for everyone's enjoyment.

[RickyBobby_PR]

39 minutes ago, golferguy2727 said:

At my course, standard pace of play is 4h 15m.  At peak times, on course people capture group times are 9 and 18 holes and that is logged.  If play slows down, on course people  will find source of slowdown and will first usher along, then warn, then escalate.  If warning or escalation happens, the group gets a "letter" from the committee and the group is asked to attend a review meeting. Any subsequent slow play issues result in suspension of privileges, such as peak time bookings etc.  During off peak times, times will drift closer to 4h 30m but in most cases, the players during that time typically will not / do not complain about on course slowness.  But if a complaint is received in the Proshop, the steps above are actioned equally during off peak times.

I can say, this seems to produce a remarkably consistent round time experience at the course.  Of course, some people want to play in 3h 15m and the peak time lottery is their opportunity to get the "faster" times.  Since we do a crossover pattern (early peak times on both nines) there can be conflict between last groups of the crossover and the early starters, but that is usually well managed for everyone's enjoyment.

That’s great where there’s a membership but at public courses most don’t publish a pace of play or don’t entice the one they have. Like the op situation they are only concerned about getting more people on the course. So pace of play is non existent and is dependent on each group playing fast.

 

[golferguy2727]

13 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

That’s great where there’s a membership but at public courses most don’t publish a pace of play or don’t entice the one they have. Like the op situation they are only concerned about getting more people on the course. So pace of play is non existent and is dependent on each group playing fast.

 

Agreed - when I play public tracks, I assume slow pace of play since there are no practical enforcement tactics.  Before I joined a club, I payed semi-private tracks to get better pace of play since they had more control of the outcome.  When I wanted more predictability on round times I joined a reasonable private club.  I totally get that this is not an option for everyone, but fast play and public courses are rarely mentioned in the same sentence.  Now, there are things public courses could do to help with pace of play - marshals that matter and can usher folks along, education for patrons on expectations, penalties/lockouts for offenders (limited value honestly).  There are a couple of places in my area that are public and have reasonable pace of play experiences.  But since they tend to be farther out from the masses and typically are more complicated courses, inexperienced (and potentially slower) players don't get there often.

Based on a discussion a long time ago with a guy who worked at a well-run, family-owned, public course, he said - they care about the experience since it is THEIR business.  Reputation matters for them so they enforced a reasonable pace of play to keep good customers coming back time and time again - it worked.  So I might offer that courses that accept and/or condone slow play are maybe courses we can choose not to play.  More than one course in my past has been revitalized with new ownership spirit and recovered.

Simply speaking and this thread has called it out - the way to reduced slow play is to find slow players and help them along so they can also enjoy the experience while not impacting the experience of others.  But that takes on course folks who can do that effectively - and I confess, over time I have come to see less and less of that in my time as a person who plays golf. I don't dare call myself a golfer because deep down, for my effort and investment, I really suck at golf

Edited May 17, 2023 by golferguy2727
Fixed it

[RickyBobby_PR]

22 minutes ago, golferguy2727 said:

Agreed - when I play public tracks, I assume slow pace of play since there are no practical enforcement tactics.  Before I joined a club, I payed semi-private tracks to get better pace of play since they had more control of the outcome.  When I wanted more predictability on round times I joined a reasonable private club.  I totally get that this is not an option for everyone, but fast play and public courses are rarely mentioned in the same sentence.  Now, there are things public courses could do to help with pace of play - marshals that matter and can usher folks along, education for patrons on expectations, penalties/lockouts for offenders (limited value honestly).  There are a couple of places in my area that are public and have reasonable pace of play experiences.  But since they tend to be farther out from the masses and typically are more complicated courses, inexperienced (and potentially slower) players don't get there often.

Based on a discussion a long time ago with a guy who worked at a well-run, family-owned, public course, he said - they care about the experience since it is THEIR business.  Reputation matters for them so they enforced a reasonable pace of play to keep good customers coming back time and time again - it worked.  So I might offer that courses that accept and/or condone slow play are maybe courses we can choose not to play.  More than one course in my past has been revitalized with new ownership spirit and recovered.

Simply speaking and this thread has called it out - the way to reduced slow play is to find slow players and help them along so they can also enjoy the experience while not impacting the experience of others.  But that takes on course folks who can do that effectively - and I confess, over time I have come to see less and less of that in my time as a person who plays golf. I don't dare call myself a golfer because deep down, for my effort and investment, I really suck at golf

It all depends on the course. I play several that are strict on pace of play. The policy is posted in several spots. The starter informs each group of the policy and what will happen and the marshals and clubhouse manage it and understand where the slowdown occurs and they address it.

most courses won’t do it because they are scared of losing golfers 

[golferguy2727]

1 minute ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

It all depends on the course. I play several that are strict on pace of play. The policy is posted in several spots. The starter informs each group of the policy and what will happen and the marshals and clubhouse manage it and understand where the slowdown occurs and they address it.

most courses won’t do it because they are scared of losing golfers 

I totally hear you and agree - funnily enough in my area (Toronto, Canada), most tee sheets have been PACKED full for the past 2-3 + years on local public courses - they need to lose some demand it seems

[RickyBobby_PR]

12 minutes ago, golferguy2727 said:

I totally hear you and agree - funnily enough in my area (Toronto, Canada), most tee sheets have been PACKED full for the past 2-3 + years on local public courses - they need to lose some demand it seems

They have been packed here. The courses that enforce pace of play still had no issues maintaining it throughout the day. There would be some slow downs on a few holes that were short par 4s or downhill par 4s because some greens are reachable, but it cleared up again once you got past those 

[jaz29]

I am in Michigan (Metro Detroit), where commercial building is taking many of our great public GC's. It is 4-1/2-5-1/2 hours for a round in our area. My playing partners and I always play ready golf to speed things up, but already this spring things are slow. In our league, we stay on track to 2 hours or a little more per nine, but guys know the track and we are liberal with each other on the rules (letting guys roll it for a better lie).

At the private clubs in the area it is 4:15 - 4:30. My son caddies and I can set my watch to it for me to pick him up

[GolfSpy_APH]

Our course gets log jammed and its often because we have too many looking for golf balls. 

For better or worse they have grown up the long rough to about 4 feet (wish I was joking) so it does help in that if you hit it in there you simply drop and move on... less looking around but still equally bad. 

Tee times are 10 minutes apart and that is okay. Not really many marshals out and not a whole lot in terms of policing, but in general just try not to play too fast which isnt something I enjoy as long rounds for me simply arent any fun. 

[roland49]

In the Myrtle Beach, SC area I've played in less than 3 hours and more than 5. Usually, we average around 4 to 4.5 hours. Recently I got a rian check after 9 holes because the play was so slow (more than 2.5 hours for the first 9 holes.

Since we get a lot of tourist play at various time of the year the pace of play varies. I will say that many tourist play from the wrong tees, using the "white" tee rather the next forward tees.

[Caddie1966]

I’ve been a member at one of 3 private clubs in Tx since 1994.  Each had its own way of managing speed of play….
Club 1: Starter would let each group know the expectation was 4:10.  Marshall’s would act if asked but rarely enforced anything on their own. No group larger than 4 period.

Club 2: Starter would let each group know the expectation was 4:05.  No Marshall.  No enforcement. fivesomes allowed during the weekdays.

Club 3: My current club. We have 6 proshop guys and no starter or Marshall.  Pace of play is listed on the card as 4:08.  Fivesomes allowed anytime.  There are members who will tee off as two threesomes and join up as a 6 some on 2nd tee.  Our foursome called that in one Saturday morning and an asst pro came out to tell them to split up on the 5th tee.  They broke into a single and a fivesome as the single wasn’t in on the game the rest were playing.  You can’t make this up.

It comes down to people taking responsibility for themselves and having some consideration for others, including the proshop personnel and Marshalls. Everyone who is playing slow knows it and so does the management.  They have a tee sheet and know when groups make the turn.  The slow groups need to respect the rest of the players on the course and step aside when  appropriate and the club employees need to take an active role to manage pace of play.  If you have an active management of the pace of play, no one is going to go elsewhere, they will actually prefer that approach to unnecessarily sitting and waiting 5-10 minutes each hole.

[jaz29]

I commented earlier on this topic, but wanted you to know what the course thinks it should be. I just played Arcadia Bluffs in Michigan (A must for every golfer). It is not really a course that you would want to walk. The carts did have a gps system on them and they stated the time of play for 18 holes should be 4 hours and 45 minutes. It gave us a message and kept us on pace. This course does allow for a little slow play in one area as there are a number of good picture taking areas. They did have a 50 minute frost delay, but kept the tee times tight so they only lost 20 min

[GaDawg]

If people are playing ready golf, 4 1/2 hours should be max. Just my opinion.

[roland49]

15 minutes ago, GaDawg said:

If people are playing ready golf, 4 1/2 hours should be max. Just my opinion.

absolutely, ready golf should be the norm.

[Dcheb]

My public course used to be terrible at 5 + hour rounds.  But then they changed to 10 minute intervals on tee times and they stick to that.   And all of a sudden rounds are anywhere from 3:50. To 4:30 a round.  Of course weather changes that.  As does the rough being high and groups spending time looking for balls.  I think a lot of slow play is as due to that course condition. But I know what you’re saying about the rapid fire tee offs on the first tee to get as many groups off.  The course doesn’t care.  They have your money and then let you deal with what’s out there   Some MB courses do that and I won’t play them again.  Just not enjoyable 

[JJames]

When that happens I let the group from behind go first and they are very very happy to be the ones waiting forever after that. 

[3ironpunch]

So, here's one for the record books.  I played this past weekend in 3 hours and 40 minutes.  We rolled from the #9 green right into the waiting line of carts on the #10 tee.  We had plenty of hydration and didn't need to hit the club house at the turn.  And for the back 9 we still waited on 3 holes and a few sessions of " duck and cover" from the group behind us. Oh and we did miss the fairway on occasion and had to scour the tree line for the errant "fade".  Not sure how this happened but I am willing to bet it is an isolated occurrence but I am not complaining

[OssiansFolly]

You play as fast as it takes to keep up with the group in front of you but not hit them with your shots. As soon as that is the case you go ahead. You'll never make everybody happy. If people behind you start hitting into you then you give them a stern warning about safety, and if they do it again warn them you'll start returning to sender. I've finished 9 holes in 90 minutes and had the ranger tell us we need to keep up and speed the pace of play. I told him there is no one behind us and we finished 30% faster than the average expectancy. Those are the guys you ignore and keep doing what you're doing.

[Julius]

On 5/17/2023 at 6:20 PM, Rockerdude said:

So i've come across this a few times where the course just sends people out without intervals, as soon as you can hit you can go. Now, our group usually stays with pace but being casual we don't necessarily feel comfortable hitting if it'll be close to the people in front. We don't take extra long, and if someone will definitely not reach then they hit first. Usually the people in front of us have like 2 more foursomes in front of them anyways so it's not like we'll be able to go anywhere. The problem comes from groups behind us where they're getting frustrated and start hitting near or into us or telling us to go. If we're playing slow we try and let people through but when there's literally no where to go, is there a "best" way to handle this? Usually we talk to them and they realize that there's no where to go but other times they don't get it and demand we hit into people or as soon as it's 5 yards clear. Are you supposed to hit into people and wait 5 mins at your spot for people to get off the green and hit ASAP, fully knowing you'll be waiting on the tee for them because they'll also be waiting for the group in front? FYI, usually the marshalls don't really do much with groups that are hitting 2-3 balls and taking a while to try and find their ball.

 

Hopefully this makes sense,

 

thanks

We should all be playing "ready golf".  As soon as the first quartet have gone out, then the one who hits it the shortest should be up, the 4some ahead should be out of range of this shorter hitter.  If everyone is the same on average, then they should clear that distance, whatever it is.  If they are spending excessive time looking for lost balls playing multiple balls, then we have "hit into" these groups to get their attention. Obviously we never hit anyone but to get their attention (assuming the Marshal is useless, as you said - the first thing to do actually is call the Marshal for them to speed it up, or double up teams of 2 or singles, etc).  For the green, as soon as they clear from the green you should be ready to hit. You don't need to wait for them to be to the next hole, off the green and already off the sides is ok. The ones behind you - if you are playing a reasonable speed then they will just need to grin and bear it, especially if there is a logjam ahead of you, they are not going anywhere either. 

[GolfSpy_APH]

4 hours is normal. Anything over 4 hours and I get antsy and want to be doing something else or just head home.

[rdocherty]

4 hours is reasonable. My one nice course (>$70) I played last year was a weekend 8am tee time that took 6 hours. Granted, it was a long course and long cart rides between some holes. My issue is more when tee times aren’t held and they let in walk on’s when tee times are booked. I didn’t tee off until 8:45 and when you’re already behind that early in the day, there is a problem.

If a course holds to a tee time and it’s a peak time, I don’t get as frustrated. But if you’re holding up people, I think there needs to be a self awareness to let people through. I had played my first 9 in 90 minutes and then second 9 took 160 minutes because they let a threesome off the back, cutting off those making the turn, and the lack of self awareness was frustrating.


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[Rosey31]

Most courses it should be 4-4.5 hours to play a round on a crowded course. Most private or semi private courses I would expect members to play faster as they have seen the course over and over again. One of the big factors on this will be how the sheet is set up. I remember back 13 years ago when I was in the business most courses tried to go to a 7 then 8 minute sheet between times. I have played places that go as much as 10 minutes between times. Most of the places I play down here will do a 9 min gapping which seems to work well. No matter what is used you will always have that one group that seems to hold everyone up. 

[Kennyshindo12]

4 hours and 20 minutes is what our pace of play was at butterfield trail golf club. 

[Preeway]

Most public courses pack their tee times pretty tight so it seems 4:15-4:30 is a pretty normal round these days. I've found it hard to get a round done in less than 4:15.

 

[secvols8]

The most stressful thing for a new golfer is trying to keep up with a unobtainable expected pace. How can someone that shoots 110 play a round in 4 hours?  The best solution is for longer intervals between tee times. I know that means less money for the club, but imagine playing with at least an entire par 5 worth of time in between groups. Most of the time on busy courses you wait for every single shot. That's infuriating. 

[Saltygolfkansas]

Around here we are almost guaranteed to be 5 hours on any public course.  Private 3 1/2 to 4 hours is expected.  Perfect round is about 4 hours.  Any faster and I feel like we go again.  When I travel and get to play "high end" courses we usually are 3 1/2 or less with less traffic.  I don't mind having a minute to wait and enjoy a cigar or drink around the tee box.  

[jbern]

I think when it’s completely packed, getting done in 4.5-5 hours should be expected (unless you’re one of the first tee times of the day). I try to avoid popular courses in the area when I know it’s going to be busy because like @GolfSpy_APH, after 4hrs I’m getting antsy. I don’t know how the pros do it with 5-6 hour rounds as the norm these days. 

[DiscipleofPenick]

1. It shouldn't be packed. This is on the course for a variety of reasons. Bad management is the overarching terms, but it's a combination of too-close together tee times, ignorant starters and worthless rangers. Also, no adherence to tee times can contribute to this.

2. Golf should never take more than 4 1/2 hours for a foursome.

[richk9holes]

"When it's packed" can vary. Packed with people who know what they're doing? 4 hours to a shade over is about right.

This is course specific. A place that draws a lot of beginners, family groups (father/daughter) (a couple and their in-laws) etc out there for the park setting not so serious about golf this easily creeps to 4 1/2 to 5 hours.

If the pace creeps to the point it looks like it's trending for 5 hours that's when I flag a ranger or call the pro shop.