i’m guessing there’s no rule to save me here

[ryan.mzzz]

this was a fairway bunker my ball found and  came to rest in a big shoe impression. possibly making a fried egg in the shoe print, making the fried egg much deeper than normal.  i did well to advance the ball about 6 feet out of the bunker. i doubt there’s any chance of relief in this situation and is just an unlucky bounce, but i figured i’d ask. 

Edited November 11, 2023 by ryan.mzzz

[Josh Parker]

1 hour ago, ryan.mzzz said:

this was a fairway bunker my ball found and  came to rest in a big shoe impression. possibly making a fried egg in the shoe print, making the fried egg much deeper than normal.  i did well to advance the ball about 6 feet out of the bunker. i doubt there’s any chance of relief in this situation and is just an unlucky bounce, but i figured i’d ask. 

Unfortunately it's an unlucky bounce. 

[cnosil]

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=12

No free relief options but you can take an unplayable with either a one or two stroke penalty based on what you decide to do.

[Shapotomous]

Unfortunately the rules have you play it as it lies.  And in group matches or touraments you'd only have the unplayable lie option posted earlier.

However, if you and i were in a $5 match that was just between us, i would tell you to move it just outside the footprint.  I want our match to be decided by your ability to play from normally occuring sand trap lies like professionals get to rather than sasquatch prints.  

[Stuka44]

I would second Shapotomous on this one.  And this often devolves into a horrible rules argument but here it goes.  Unless you are playing in a USGA sanctioned event I would never play the ball out of that lie.  The chances that McIlroy, or insert the name of any of 500 professionals, are going to be left with that lie and have to play out of a lie like that is less than being struck by lightning.  So don't let your pride stand in the way of taking free relief for a condition the pro's will NEVER actually be faced with.

[RickyBobby_PR]

8 minutes ago, Stuka44 said:

I would second Shapotomous on this one.  And this often devolves into a horrible rules argument but here it goes.  Unless you are playing in a USGA sanctioned event I would never play the ball out of that lie.  The chances that McIlroy, or insert the name of any of 500 professionals, are going to be left with that lie and have to play out of a lie like that is less than being struck by lightning.  So don't let your pride stand in the way of taking free relief for a condition the pro's will NEVER actually be faced with.

Well if you are playing a round where an official handicap will be entered you are supposed to play it out of that lie and if you choose not to then you must follow the rules of golf for declaring it unplayable.

Doesn’t matter if it’s a sanctioned event or a weekend round, rules of golf apply where handicap is kept.

 

[barney_bogey]

Man... Not sure I'd enjoy playing with people that would look poorly at improving that lie outside of a tournament scenario. I'm fine with it even if we're playing for skins too.

Golf is hard enough.

B

[DaveP043]

14 minutes ago, barney_bogey said:

Man... Not sure I'd enjoy playing with people that would look poorly at improving that lie outside of a tournament scenario. I'm fine with it even if we're playing for skins too.

Golf is hard enough.

B

I play with a big group of friends who choose to play by the Rules of Golf.  We have a great time, and I bet you'd have fun playing in our groups.  Yeah, divots and footprints are awful luck, but we also have balls bounce off trees to the middle of the fairway sometimes.  That's life, thats golf.

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, barney_bogey said:

Man... Not sure I'd enjoy playing with people that would look poorly at improving that lie outside of a tournament scenario. I'm fine with it even if we're playing for skins too.

Golf is hard enough.

B

Its a bad break and rub of the green. When I was playing with the group I played with from the time I started playing golf until the pandemic we had lots of fun playing by the rules. Just like getting a bad break we all get good ones too and nobody is telling people to put the ball back where it should have landed rather than their good break.

only people I know that want free relief from bad breaks are worried about their ego and the score on the card being artificially low

fun comes from the company one plays with not so much from getting relief from bad breaks 

Edited November 16, 2023 by RickyBobby_PR

[barney_bogey]

Not sure how to multi quote on Tapa...

Perhaps the difference lies in skill level. My group shoots high scores. Some guys are new, some are just returning to the game after a long break; myself included. We're all absolutely hackers.

I think the goal in this case is to maximize enjoyment and minimize frustration, not to inflate our egos. None of us even carry an official handicap.

Different goals for different groups. (Different strokes for different folks just seemed so cliche)

Playing solo, I'd suck up the bad luck and mark it as scrambling practice. But if my dude looks at me defeated from a bad luck lie, I'm giving him some grace. He'll still probably skull it into the drink but at least he has less of an excuse!

I reckon since we don't play slow it shouldn't bother anyone else. We'll just play it like a game and let you semi pros enjoy being sticklers.

And then the sun will still rise in the morning.

Cheers
B

[Josh Parker]

18 minutes ago, barney_bogey said:

Not sure how to multi quote on Tapa...

Perhaps the difference lies in skill level. My group shoots high scores. Some guys are new, some are just returning to the game after a long break; myself included. We're all absolutely hackers.

I think the goal in this case is to maximize enjoyment and minimize frustration, not to inflate our egos. None of us even carry an official handicap.

Different goals for different groups. (Different strokes for different folks just seemed so cliche)

Playing solo, I'd suck up the bad luck and mark it as scrambling practice. But if my dude looks at me defeated from a bad luck lie, I'm giving him some grace. He'll still probably skull it into the drink but at least he has less of an excuse!

I reckon since we don't play slow it shouldn't bother anyone else. We'll just play it like a game and let you semi pros enjoy being sticklers.

And then the sun will still rise in the morning.

Cheers
B
 

While I play by the rules and take the bad breaks, I absolutely agree with this comment. Most aren't out there to compete or hardly to keep a handicap. Golf is supposed to be enjoyable and for those that may not get to play a ton, and you run in to this situation, move it.  

As I mentioned I follow the rules but I also have different goals when it comes to scoring and wanting to enter a few tournaments. 

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

52 minutes ago, barney_bogey said:

Not sure how to multi quote on Tapa...

Perhaps the difference lies in skill level. My group shoots high scores. Some guys are new, some are just returning to the game after a long break; myself included. We're all absolutely hackers.

I think the goal in this case is to maximize enjoyment and minimize frustration, not to inflate our egos. None of us even carry an official handicap.

Different goals for different groups. (Different strokes for different folks just seemed so cliche)

Playing solo, I'd suck up the bad luck and mark it as scrambling practice. But if my dude looks at me defeated from a bad luck lie, I'm giving him some grace. He'll still probably skull it into the drink but at least he has less of an excuse!

I reckon since we don't play slow it shouldn't bother anyone else. We'll just play it like a game and let you semi pros enjoy being sticklers.

And then the sun will still rise in the morning.

Cheers
B
 

If you aren’t carrying a handicap then do whatever makes you happy. Drop a ball in the fairway instead of playing stroke and distance even if the mlr isn’t in effect. Move the ball to preferred lies and so on. 
 

Heck even do like Mike malaska suggests and use a tee on every shot. 

[GolfSpy_APH]

On 11/11/2023 at 11:09 PM, ryan.mzzz said:

this was a fairway bunker my ball found and  came to rest in a big shoe impression. possibly making a fried egg in the shoe print, making the fried egg much deeper than normal.  i did well to advance the ball about 6 feet out of the bunker. i doubt there’s any chance of relief in this situation and is just an unlucky bounce, but i figured i’d ask. 

There is for animal prints and no human should ever leave a bunker like that and I would consider them an animal. 

[barney_bogey]

If you aren’t carrying a handicap then do whatever makes you happy. Drop a ball in the fairway instead of playing stroke and distance even if the mlr isn’t in effect. Move the ball to preferred lies and so on. 
 
Heck even do like Mike malaska suggests and use a tee on every shot. 

That's a far cry from moving the ball out of a footprint in a bunker to the bunker proper but I hear ya.

So I guess that's a 'no' on a breakfast ball then?

Wishing you favorable bounces.

B

[Josh Parker]

13 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

If you aren’t carrying a handicap then do whatever makes you happy. Drop a ball in the fairway instead of playing stroke and distance even if the mlr isn’t in effect. Move the ball to preferred lies and so on. 
 

Heck even do like Mike malaska suggests and use a tee on every shot. 

I think you are missing the point of his post. He isn't saying just play whatever is best.  

Why discourage someone from learning the game and enjoying it?  I understand your point about the rules of golf and I myself follow them.  But when you are trying to learn the fundamentals of how to play out of the sand, why not play out of one that isn't a footprint. 

Once someone starts to really enjoy the game then they want to start improving and following the letter of the law. Focus changes.

We have all played in for fun scrambles where we select a lie... what is the difference in a "for fun" round 

[Javs]

On 11/11/2023 at 4:09 PM, ryan.mzzz said:

this was a fairway bunker my ball found and  came to rest in a big shoe impression. possibly making a fried egg in the shoe print, making the fried egg much deeper than normal.  i did well to advance the ball about 6 feet out of the bunker. i doubt there’s any chance of relief in this situation and is just an unlucky bounce, but i figured i’d ask. 

You found Big Foot, while the rules don’t allow relief (unless Big Foot is deemed an animal) you could be famous for finding him. Just joking. That lie sucks! However, if you tell me you saved par I’ll buy you a beer!

Edited November 16, 2023 by Javs

[RickyBobby_PR]

28 minutes ago, barney_bogey said:

That's a far cry from moving the ball out of a footprint in a bunker to the bunker proper but I hear ya.

So I guess that's a 'no' on a breakfast ball then?

Wishing you favorable bounces.

B

If playing fit no handicap do whatever you want as long as you and/or your group isn’t holding up pace of play.

there’s no reason to play by the rules if just out for the social aspect of golf. The group can make up whatever rules they want to play by.

 

[ryan.mzzz]

47 minutes ago, Javs said:

You found Big Foot, while the rules don’t allow relief (unless Big Foot is deemed an animal) you could be famous for finding him. Just joking. That lie sucks! However, if you tell me you saved par I’ll buy you a beer!

oh no. there was no way i could see to move that much sand, so i tomahawk chopped an eight iron straight down onto the ball with the ball well behind my back foot in my stance. i made contact and popped the ball out of the bunker but just barely, still in the rough and well above my feet. i hit that with a decent 3 hybrid but while trying not to hook it into the drink from that lie, i put it in another bunker on the right side of the green. adrenaline pumping, i put that bunker shot over the green(and down the hill, but not wet!) and got up and down from there. so, a double bogey six. At least it was good for my total putt number. 

[Javs]

9 minutes ago, ryan.mzzz said:

oh no. there was no way i could see to move that much sand, so i tomahawk chopped an eight iron straight down onto the ball with the ball well behind my back foot in my stance. i made contact and popped the ball out of the bunker but just barely, still in the rough and well above my feet. i hit that with a decent 3 hybrid but while trying not to hook it into the drink from that lie, i put it in another bunker on the right side of the green. adrenaline pumping, i put that bunker shot over the green(and down the hill, but not wet!) and got up and down from there. so, a double bogey six. At least it was good for my total putt number. 

Ha ha ha now that is a great recap! Thanks for sharing this!!

[Fred Mitchell]

15 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

If playing fit no handicap do whatever you want as long as you and/or your group isn’t holding up pace of play.

there’s no reason to play by the rules if just out for the social aspect of golf. The group can make up whatever rules they want to play by.

 

Yep call it a scramble . All joking aside I play in a monthly scramble with very few good players. 1 club length no closer to the hole is the rule. Unless the person in charge of the scramble looks at the group and deems it a fair 4 some he puts teams together  to make them as equal as possible. This tournament has been like this for decades and rules havent changed. For 40 bucks you get cart , green fees, 5 canned beers on ice and sponsors pay the closest to the hole/long drive/etc. prizes which is shockingly a small tab at the local Elks Lodge [ previous and long time owner before he passed was a lifetime Elk, do not have to be an Elk to enter though] At no time is this meant to be anything but FUN, Hanging with old friends and meeting new ones on the course.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Fred Mitchell
info added

[Subdiver1]

Funny, we have had this discussion MANY times.

This may get a little...long winded, but bear with me. The Rules of golf provide:

Rule 8.1.d(1) When restoration of worsened conditions is allowed. If the conditions affecting the stroke are worsened by a person other than the player OR by an animal, without penalty under 8.1.a the player may: 

Restore the original condition as nearly as possible (the "original condition" of a bunker is NOT 4" deep foot prints and trenches from hacking the ball out in 3 strokes),

8.1.(2) states that a player MUST NOT improve when conditions were worsened by:

Your own caddie,

another person taking action AUTHORIZED BY THE PLAYER,

Natural forces.

I argue that 8.1.(d)1 ALLOWS repair of a bunker n that condition under the "worsened by another person other than the player" portion AND with support by 8.1.(2) because the damage was not by any of those stated.

Additionally, 8.3 states that A player must not deliberately take any of the actions in Rule 8.1a to:

Improve OR WORSEN the conditions affecting the stroke of another player, or

Alter any other physical conditions to affect: where another player's ball might go or come to rest after that player's next stroke or a later stroke etc. 

To which I would argue that the "other player" deliberately wosened conditions affexting the stroke of another player by deliberately NOT taking action following their stroke or tromping around the course under Rule 12.2.b(2) in NOT "smoothing the bunker to care for the course, which is also called out in Rule 1.a. "All players are expected to play in the spirit of the game by: Taking good care of the course."

Misconduct and those deliberate actions allow for relief and penatly of the offending, previous player; provided in "Clarification," 1.2a/1 "Examples of actions by a player that are likely to be considered misconduct include: deliberately causing damage to a putting green."

I think most of us understand the difference between a putting green and a bunker, but the rules provide for penalties for "serious misconduct" (deliberate damage to a putting green) and while we may not consider failure to rake a bunker or fix divots and ball marks "serious" they are cumulative and the rules also provide for penalty of repeat offenses of the same or similar, lesser misconduct.

Hopefully I have held your attention so far.  I know this is getting drawn out, but the devil is in the details. 

If you feel the need to depart at this point I'll leave youbwoth this:

I'll 2nd @Javsand buy another round fkr par out of that lie, and @GolfSpy_APHon identifying the inconsiderate (insert expletive here) an animal, therefore allowing relief under that rule. 

If you are till inclined to read:

Playing with VGA and APT they have, fairly IMO, implemented local rules allowing for rake and place in a bunker where the condition such as this is found. This allows for "fair" play because it REALLY IS and abnormal course condition; (note the Rules arguments levied above) and I offer the following amplifying arguments:

a bunker, unlike a pond, is a maintained course location that gets regular maintenance and golfers are provided implements that they are supposed to use to return that "hazard" in a manitained condtion (Rules 1.2.a and 12.2.b(2)) after mucking it up with their presence (kind of like replacing a f***ing divot j@ckholes ). So, putting the course in an expected, and consistent condition does not alleviate the penalty of having landed in and having to play from a less than optimal situation, but allows for consistent conditions for all players, regarless of poor conduct vs. acceptable manners and behavior.  IMO, this also falls under the same constraints as being penalized for hitting your ball into the fairway, but finding a divot some j@ckhole before you didn't have the wherewithal to replace/repair (but that is yet another rules argument we are hoping to see rectified in 2024. Can I get an, "Amen!")

And now...the rant...

The problem is people, not the course. Which has only gotten worse since the 2019-2021 stuff.  Etiquette has been ...on the decline for some time. Slow players not inviting or outright refusing to let faster players play through, divot, ball mark and bunker repair, the list goes on. Unfortunately, what was a "gentlemans' game" which included returning the conditions to as found out of basic stewardship if not consideration of others, has devolved into a free for all of "oh well, sucks for you," because some j@ckhole before you was too self absorbed to 'do the right thing.'  I have actively reminded other players to, "please rake the bunker," or offered, " a heck of a ball mark, would you like my repair tool," and provided, "man Burt Reynolds wants his toupee back. Let me toss that back to you so we don't have a new lake here," but having been ignored or found that other are not quite as...encouraging I find myself becoming more inclined these days to ask, "would you like me to toss you the rake so you can clean that up, or should I just shove the handle up ... and use your teeth to smooth that mess?" (Yes, my "decorum" is in threat of decline as well, but thus far has been held in check).  The RULES as so often cited often fail to return back to the most important rule, Rule #1, which lays the foundation for all that follow.

Good day gentlemen, and ladies. I hope you all find renewed energy for raking and course repair from this discussion. And I wish you all great golding weather and a wonderful Thanksgiving. 

Cheers

Scott

[RickyBobby_PR]

57 minutes ago, Subdiver1 said:

Funny, we have had this discussion MANY times.

This may get a little...long winded, but bear with me. The Rules of golf provide:

Rule 8.1.d(1) When restoration of worsened conditions is allowed. If the conditions affecting the stroke are worsened by a person other than the player OR by an animal, without penalty under 8.1.a the player may: 

Restore the original condition as nearly as possible (the "original condition" of a bunker is NOT 4" deep foot prints and trenches from hacking the ball out in 3 strokes),

8.1.(2) states that a player MUST NOT improve when conditions were worsened by:

Your own caddie,

another person taking action AUTHORIZED BY THE PLAYER,

Natural forces.

I argue that 8.1.(d)1 ALLOWS repair of a bunker n that condition under the "worsened by another person other than the player" portion AND with support by 8.1.(2) because the damage was not by any of those stated.

Additionally, 8.3 states that A player must not deliberately take any of the actions in Rule 8.1a to:

Improve OR WORSEN the conditions affecting the stroke of another player, or

Alter any other physical conditions to affect: where another player's ball might go or come to rest after that player's next stroke or a later stroke etc. 

To which I would argue that the "other player" deliberately wosened conditions affexting the stroke of another player by deliberately NOT taking action following their stroke or tromping around the course under Rule 12.2.b(2) in NOT "smoothing the bunker to care for the course, which is also called out in Rule 1.a. "All players are expected to play in the spirit of the game by: Taking good care of the course."

Misconduct and those deliberate actions allow for relief and penatly of the offending, previous player; provided in "Clarification," 1.2a/1 "Examples of actions by a player that are likely to be considered misconduct include: deliberately causing damage to a putting green."

I think most of us understand the difference between a putting green and a bunker, but the rules provide for penalties for "serious misconduct" (deliberate damage to a putting green) and while we may not consider failure to rake a bunker or fix divots and ball marks "serious" they are cumulative and the rules also provide for penalty of repeat offenses of the same or similar, lesser misconduct.

Hopefully I have held your attention so far.  I know this is getting drawn out, but the devil is in the details. 

If you feel the need to depart at this point I'll leave youbwoth this:

I'll 2nd @Javsand buy another round fkr par out of that lie, and @GolfSpy_APHon identifying the inconsiderate (insert expletive here) an animal, therefore allowing relief under that rule. 

If you are till inclined to read:

Playing with VGA and APT they have, fairly IMO, implemented local rules allowing for rake and place in a bunker where the condition such as this is found. This allows for "fair" play because it REALLY IS and abnormal course condition; (note the Rules arguments levied above) and I offer the following amplifying arguments:

a bunker, unlike a pond, is a maintained course location that gets regular maintenance and golfers are provided implements that they are supposed to use to return that "hazard" in a manitained condtion (Rules 1.2.a and 12.2.b(2)) after mucking it up with their presence (kind of like replacing a f***ing divot j@ckholes ). So, putting the course in an expected, and consistent condition does not alleviate the penalty of having landed in and having to play from a less than optimal situation, but allows for consistent conditions for all players, regarless of poor conduct vs. acceptable manners and behavior.  IMO, this also falls under the same constraints as being penalized for hitting your ball into the fairway, but finding a divot some j@ckhole before you didn't have the wherewithal to replace/repair (but that is yet another rules argument we are hoping to see rectified in 2024. Can I get an, "Amen!")

And now...the rant...

The problem is people, not the course. Which has only gotten worse since the 2019-2021 stuff.  Etiquette has been ...on the decline for some time. Slow players not inviting or outright refusing to let faster players play through, divot, ball mark and bunker repair, the list goes on. Unfortunately, what was a "gentlemans' game" which included returning the conditions to as found out of basic stewardship if not consideration of others, has devolved into a free for all of "oh well, sucks for you," because some j@ckhole before you was too self absorbed to 'do the right thing.'  I have actively reminded other players to, "please rake the bunker," or offered, " a heck of a ball mark, would you like my repair tool," and provided, "man Burt Reynolds wants his toupee back. Let me toss that back to you so we don't have a new lake here," but having been ignored or found that other are not quite as...encouraging I find myself becoming more inclined these days to ask, "would you like me to toss you the rake so you can clean that up, or should I just shove the handle up ... and use your teeth to smooth that mess?" (Yes, my "decorum" is in threat of decline as well, but thus far has been held in check).  The RULES as so often cited often fail to return back to the most important rule, Rule #1, which lays the foundation for all that follow.

Good day gentlemen, and ladies. I hope you all find renewed energy for raking and course repair from this discussion. And I wish you all great golding weather and a wonderful Thanksgiving. 

Cheers

Scott

If that rule applied here I’m pretty sure our local rules expert @DaveP043would have stated that in his reply.

 

[Kenny B]

B.C. (before covid), our course bunkers were not too bad for a muni.  During covid we had no rakes and the local rule was that your ball could be moved out of a footprint.  After covid I think people got lazy and liked the local rule rather than now playing by the rules when rakes returned.

We have a lot of large bunkers, some 150y along the fairway to the green, and not a lot of rakes.  How many rakes should a bunker 150y long have??  Once, I counted 11 rakes around the green next to that bunker!  Not that I've ever done it , but hit a shot from the bunker that only goes 30y and remains in the bunker usually means that the player will walk through the bunker to the ball, maybe with a rake; maybe not.  Sometimes all the rakes are at the green!  So footprints are quite common.  It is what it is, and it's just another reason why the pros don't play the same game we amateurs do.  

[ryan.mzzz]

4 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

If that rule applied here I’m pretty sure our local rules expert @DaveP043would have stated that in his reply.

 

or perhaps @DaveP043 is fallible from time to time. @Subdiver1 ‘s argument at the very least merits consideration. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

15 minutes ago, ryan.mzzz said:

or perhaps @DaveP043 is fallible from time to time. @Subdiver1 ‘s argument at the very least merits consideration. 

I’ll hedge my bets on Dave. We don’t agree on a lot but he’s a rules official and I’m pretty sure he would have provided actual guidance for how to handle that situation as he does many times here and on wrx rather than just giving a comment about bad breaks

[ryan.mzzz]

15 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I’ll hedge my bets on Dave. We don’t agree on a lot but he’s a rules official and I’m pretty sure he would have provided actual guidance for how to handle that situation as he does many times here and on wrx rather than just giving a comment about bad breaks

even so, sometimes the application of the rules are fuzzy:

 https://www.nbcsports.com/golf/news/1999-wm-phoenix-open-rules-official-recalls-iconic-tiger-woods-boulder-ruling

since tiger was able to get a rules official to let him move a thousand lb boulder as a “loose obstruction”, it’s possible he would have been able to get relief from a similar situation to mine in this thread, from that rules official or another. for instance, if a drunken fan had stomped through the bunker in this way, and then tigers ball found itself 5 inches below sand level directly after. 

[DaveP043]

6 hours ago, Subdiver1 said:

I argue that 8.1.(d)1 ALLOWS repair of a bunker n that condition under the "worsened by another person other than the player" portion AND with support by 8.1.(2) because the damage was not by any of those stated.

 

5 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

If that rule applied here I’m pretty sure our local rules expert @DaveP043would have stated that in his reply.

 

 

1 hour ago, ryan.mzzz said:

or perhaps @DaveP043 is fallible from time to time. @Subdiver1 ‘s argument at the very least merits consideration. 

I am certainly fallible, every human is.  However, the Rule that @Subdiver1 quotes is titled "Restoring Conditions Worsened After Ball Came to Rest".  After.  The footprint occurred well before the ball came to rest, so 8.1d doesn't apply.  8.3 discusses a player deliberately taking actions to impact the area where another player's ball might end up.  Making a footprint in the sand 10 yards or 100 yards away from the current location of the ball, is NOT deliberately altering conditions where the ball might come to rest.  Making the footprint might be deliberate, but that Player didn't intend to impact the area where another player's ball might come to rest

 

1 hour ago, ryan.mzzz said:

if a drunken fan had stomped through the bunker in this way, and then tigers ball found itself 5 inches below sand level directly after. 

If the fan made footprints AFTER Tiger's ball came to rest, he would be allowed to restore the conditions.  If the footprint occurred before the ball got there, no such luck.  The Loose Impediment ruling was correct, and would still be correct.  Now it COULD have been a concern with unreasonable delay (5.6), but that's not exactly a hard and fast rule, and would probably never been enforced.

[Javs]

I would still have gladly owed him a beer if he made par from the lie!

[Subdiver1]

11 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Restoring Conditions Worsened After Ball Came to Rest".  After.  The footprint occurred well before the ball came to rest, so 8.1d doesn't apply.  8.3 discusses a player deliberately taking actions to impact the area where another player's ball might end up.  Making a footprint in the sand 10 yards or 100 yards away from the current location of the ball, is NOT deliberately altering conditions where the ball might come to rest.  Making the footprint might be deliberate, but that Player didn't intend to impact the area where another player's ball might come to rest

@DaveP043 good call thank you. I concur and good point about "After", will have to look back at my argument and other points; basically I was pointing out that any player making a course condition that negatively affects other players is violating the rules, and the spirit of fair play. Going back to Rule 1, whether you make something worse before OR aftetlr doesn't really matter to me; if you choose not to fix what you broke then you break Rule 1, and the intent of the others.

On the second point, unless I mis-stated my argument ( possible since I was a little out of breath and had hand cramps by then ) the point was that, bunkers are (supposed to be anyway) "groomed" and maintained. Failure of a player to return the condition is, consciously or unconsciously, maliciously or not, a DELIBERATE personal choice and a failure to act and therefore, a DELIBERATE worsening of the conditions for other players. (Kind of like seeing a person bleeding out on the sidewalk and not at least calling 911 which could lead to criminal charges for FAILURE to positively "help" those conditions. Of course someone has to catch you walkkng by and not helping, but...). (Sorry for the caps, no italics using my phone). 

Anyway, another angle to the point of argument is that choosing not to fix something that you caused (ball mark, divot, bunker scars) is just as bad as slamming your putter head into the green or grabbing a shovel and digging a hole. And all of that violates Rule 1.

No the USGA hasn't yet accepted that (realistically if we think about it, a lot of recent rule changes/decisions have been around "increasing pace of play. With that in mind the only decision here would be, remove rakes from bunkers, don't have people replace or fill divots, and leave ball marks alone, because returning the course to the maintained (or should be maintained) condition, slows play

Last point, most of the rules are fairly easy to read and "interpret." However, going back to the rules courses etc., without Rule 1, there are no other rules; Rule 1 was the original rule and provides the foundation for all others. Failing to consider Rule 1 in interpreting the application of the others we miss the point of the game and our conduct. Be the guy, or gal, who holds the game together by holding your playing mates accountable for their actions, regardless of the letter of the law. If we all work together and know that someone will call us our politely, for our transgressions, we will have better course conditions, better play, better manners, and a better time overall.  We can pass on the ground crew for not grooming the bunkers every day, or ****** about the group in front not fixing 1 ball mark, but what about the dozens of other players who could have been fixing their own ahead of that group who helped turn that OKAY course into a cabbage patch?  And what of all those playing with them that may have fixed their own while silently watching their playing partners leave a path of destruction in their wake?  Maybe I can't "force" you to rake a bunker or fix ball marks () but if you won't take suggestion, I can at least refuse to participate, and I do; look, I am human; I miss stuff and I make mistakes and I appreciate that others do, and will, also. But I offer no apologies or "sorry" for being willing to call others out or for refusing to partner with people who cannot have or find some consideration for others. If I don't fix my s***, call me out, maybe I forgot in my frustration or elation, but I am human and I should be humble enough to accept my misstep and correct myself, realizing that the other Rule 1 applies, "Do unto others" and if I cannot follow that, then I deserve every raw break I get and maybe I belong under that bus that the guy who just landed in the trench and 8" deep, size 12 footprints I left behind in the bunker on 14 is wanting to run me over with as he/she contemplates the 4 strokes it will take to get out, going backwards, toward the pond.

Cheers, and may you all be blessed, or cursed, to play the course as you find it, because THAT, is the way YOU left it

[Subdiver1]

14 hours ago, ryan.mzzz said:

18 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

 

or perhaps @DaveP043 is fallible from time to time. @Subdiver1 ‘s argument at the very least merits consideration. 

@ryan.mzzz Thank you sir. I try to do a couple of things, depending on the mood, the environment and the company:

1. Make a decent, thoughtful, formed and informed argument using logic and data that support a point,

2. Play devil's advocate and make a decent, thoughtful, obtuse argument to try to get people to think and tear apart that alternative view, 

3. Stir the pot,

4. Pull the pin, toss the grenade into the room, duck back out and watch what happens from behind the viewport

I love discourse and discussion.  We learn from each other when we interact. Sounds like @DaveP043 has years of experience with applying the rules and respect of others for his knowledge and experience. I have years of playing experience and have recently started retaking rules courses and actually "studying" them vs. just being familiar. I am an inquisitive, but interactive individual. I want to hear other perspectives, but I also want to UNDERSTAND other perspectives. So, I ask, I poke, I prod, I dig and I sometimes even keep my mouth shut and just listen (or read) off in the perilhery as it all unfolds.

Thanks again to all for the discussion.