Debate: Golfers Don't Deserve Free Relief from Fairway Divots

[Stuka44]

21 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Um..no, there is no consensus, no "vote", the player has a very specific criteria he needs to satisfy in determining whether his ball is Embedded or not.  He might ask them, he might ask for an official if he's unsure, but these things aren't subject to the approval of the others.  

So other than being followed by television cameras to be exposed.  Nobody has ever taken "liberty" with what an "imbedded ball" is.

[cnosil]

16 minutes ago, Stuka44 said:

I understand your point, but the fact of the matter is that players do not have to summon a rules official for ANYTHING, therefore two players can theoretically agree to take all the liberties they want, and you 5 groups behind will be none the wiser.

Again with the potential, actual verifiable disadvantage that I face as the last person, compared to the first person, and the fact that if people are willing to cheat, or allow others to cheat, or disregard the best explanation of when relief should be given, and go against the "integrity" of the game, I have no control over that.  There is  almost nothing any golfer can do about golfers taking liberties, who are all good buddies 4 twosomes ahead in your club championship. If they are going to take liberties about what is a divot, and when a divot stops being a divot(again as best as it can be described), then WHO CARES, because guess what , they are cheating about everything else as well.

FURTHERMORE , I believe, AND NOW WE ARE ASSUMING ABSOLUTE HONESTY AND ABSOLUTE INTEGRITY BY EVERYONE PLAYING THE GAME.  If with ABSOLUTE INTEGRITY, AND HONESTY the two other golfers in the first threesome agreed that the 3rd, ball had come to rest in what based on their interpretation was a filling in divot, that based on their understanding of the rule, and description judged it still a  DIVOT.  Then I am 100% OK with that.

Because!  Assuming all 70 golfers in front of me hit fairways, and leave a divot for 18 holes, I have now had to dodge 980 Divots, that the first guy did not.  If he got a RULING  by his partners, on an HONEST CLOSE CALL.   ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC FOR HIM.  All I care about is that on the 18 hole when my ball come to rest in the  aforementioned, GRAND CANYON DEEP, BEAVER PELT GOUGE LEFT BY SOMEBODY IN FRONT OF ME, that my playing partners will  rightly, and honestly  grant me relief, and my chances of winning will not be  reduced(however slightly), because the course has been decimated with 70 divots, left on every hole by every golfer in front of me, through ABSOLUTELY NO FAULT OF MY OWN.  When with incrementally decreasing possibility, every golfer in front of me had FACTUALLY  reduced chance of finding the same bad lie. 

I AM 100%  in favor of such imperfect rule, because I can to nothing about CHEATERS!!!

you just need to forget divots and advocate for preferred lies all the time.   That is the only "fair" way to avoid interpretation and make it consistent for everyone in the field; however, that goes against one of the core fundamentals of the game.    I am surprised you aren't complaining about the grass growing during the course of the day and footprints around the hole after the 70 golfers have holed their putts.   The conditions are always different between the first and last golfer.   

[RickyBobby_PR]

23 minutes ago, Stuka44 said:

Again with the potential, actual verifiable disadvantage that I face as the last person, compared to the first person, and the fact that if people are willing to cheat, or allow others to cheat, or disregard the best explanation of when relief should be given, and go against the "integrity" of the game, I have no control over that.  There is  almost nothing any golfer can do about golfers taking liberties, who are all good buddies 4 twosomes ahead in your club championship. If they are going to take liberties about what is a divot, and when a divot stops being a divot(again as best as it can be described), then WHO CARES, because guess what , they are cheating about everything else as well.

And that’s not fair for the field and at some point they will be exposed but depending on the type of tournament they aren’t playing with a group of friends but rather opponents and there are consequence for cheating.

23 minutes ago, Stuka44 said:

FURTHERMORE , I believe, AND NOW WE ARE ASSUMING ABSOLUTE HONESTY AND ABSOLUTE INTEGRITY BY EVERYONE PLAYING THE GAME.  If with ABSOLUTE INTEGRITY, AND HONESTY the two other golfers in the first threesome agreed that the 3rd, ball had come to rest in what based on their interpretation was a filling in divot, that based on their understanding of the rule, and description judged it still a  DIVOT.  Then I am 100% OK with that.

Again there has to be a clear definition what a divot is and when it’s not, and as Dave mentioned there’s not agreement or decision amongst the group.

23 minutes ago, Stuka44 said:

AM 100%  in favor of such imperfect rule, because I can to nothing about CHEATERS!!!

And you are in a very small group that feel this way. But as I recall you aren’t keeping an official handicap so you could not play from a divot and not take any penalty.

And again we talking about changing the notion of play it as it lies for something that most golfers will never face or for the ones who do very rarely. The number of times this happens to a golfer isn’t worth changing that fundamental if the game

[Stuka44]

51 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

And you are in a very small group that feel this way. But as I recall you aren’t keeping an official handicap so you could not play from a divot and not take any penalty.

And again we talking about changing the notion of play it as it lies for something that most golfers will never face or for the ones who do very rarely. The number of times this happens to a golfer isn’t worth changing that fundamental if the game

You are correct on the first, but that is entirely beside the point.  I don't play out of divots, imperfections in bunkers, or from burned out hardpan in the middle of the fairway.  Because the pro's are subjected to this 1% of the time compared to amateurs, or not at all.  And I believe the rule makers are wrong!  Not because I don't care about the game of golf, and I'm not willing to agree, just because they said so.  I question the rules specifically because I do love this game, and believe the rules can be better!

Play it as it lies, has been mutilated to accommodate, professional players, with grandstands that prevent balls from going into ponds, grandstands that are used as backstops on drivable par 4's(I believe its actually a hole at the Waste Management this week) lift clean and place, when the slightest squish can be heard.  I don't know about anybody else, but my public course has never declared lift, clean and place, so in the dead of winter, should I not lift clean and place(I'm sure someone will inform me if this is a decision I can legally  make on my own according to rules of the game).  Or is this a "judgement call" I am not allowed to make on my own.

Again if  play it as it lies, allows exceptions for golfers who knowingly make bad decisions, or bad swings and their balls come to rest up against a grandstand which is CLEARLY, AND ABSOLUTELY VISIBLE TO ALL INVOLVED, through 100% their own doing.  Then it is just ridiculous that golfers are not granted relief from something entirely beyond their control, that others are not faced with to an equal degree.

 

Edited February 8 by Stuka44

[bens197]

Golfers should not be penalized for hitting the fairway. This is a hill I would die on. 

[Wheelieb]

1 hour ago, Stuka44 said:

So other than being followed by television cameras to be exposed.  Nobody has ever taken "liberty" with what an "imbedded ball" is.

Patrick Reed? Or do we just forget about him since he went to LIV?

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, Stuka44 said:

You are correct on the first, but that is entirely beside the point.  I don't play out of divots, imperfections in bunkers, or from burned out hardpan in the middle of the fairway.  Because the pro's are subjected to this 1% of the time compared to amateurs, or not at all.  And I believe the rule makers are wrong!  Not because I don't care about the game of golf, and I'm not willing to agree, just because they said so.  I question the rules specifically because I do love this game, and believe the rules can be better!

This has to be one of the weakest arguments for not following the rules and playing the ball down. They are subjective to the same things as an amateur. If you don’t like a poorly kept course then don’t play thar course. 
 

 

1 hour ago, Stuka44 said:

Play it as it lies, has been mutilated to accommodate, professional players, with grandstands that prevent balls from going into ponds, grandstands that are used as backstops on drivable par 4's(I believe its actually a hole at the Waste Management this week) lift clean and place, when the slightest squish can be heard.  I don't know about anybody else, but my public course has never declared lift, clean and place, so in the dead of winter, should I not lift clean and place(I'm sure someone will inform me if this is a decision I can legally  make on my own according to rules of the game).  Or is this a "judgement call" I am not allowed to make on my own.

Again some really weak points, these are all allowed by the rules of golf and if you played in similar conditions of having tv towers, grandstands or hospitality tents or a course that has some kind of obstacle you would get relief. You can play lift clean and place in soft conditions, you and/or your playing partners are the committee. I have played many rounds after rain where we used lcp in our group which consisted of 12-16 golfers most weeks.

This is where maybe if you spent sometime reading the rules rather than as you stated before not being a rules expert you would understand what you or those you play with can do during a round. You could play preferred lies every round if you wanted to. You could declare to use other MLRs if you wanted to. 

but all I’m reading is is don’t care about the rules and because a professional event goes out of their way with using certain rules and have better conditions than I do I’m against the rules and will do my own thing.

 

[fixyurdivot]

1 hour ago, bens197 said:

Golfers should not be penalized for hitting the fairway. This is a hill I would die on. 

Well, there are at least two of us .  My biggest beef is that the player has no control of avoiding these.  They can see the tree, bunker, bush, etc. in the middle of the fairway and try to avoid it as a shot making strategy.  They successfully do this only to find the ball half deep in a divot running 45 degrees off target line.  It's arguably the dumbest rule in golf and should be changed.

[TylorJudd]

What do you do if you land in a divot that was repaired!?!? play golf how you want to play golf. If you take relief to the point you do your own game a disservice then that will catch up with you. I won’t play a lie if I A) think it will damage a club or B) is somehow bullshit. We’re amateurs, and we’re not getting tour cards so play golf. I can’t imagine we’re landing inside divots every hole, and I can’t imagine putting your ball beside the divot if it lands inside it will make a difference on the round. This game always evens itself out. We pay a lot of money to play this sport, so why not play it the way you want? As amateurs, I truly don’t think most of us can become better ball strikers playing absurd lies. As you get better, then challenge yourself more. If you’re in a tournament, well ya you’re screwed, otherwise enjoy the greenery

[fixyurdivot]

10 hours ago, TylorJudd said:

What do you do if you land in a divot that was repaired!?!? play golf how you want to play golf. If you take relief to the point you do your own game a disservice then that will catch up with you. I won’t play a lie if I A) think it will damage a club or B) is somehow bullshit. We’re amateurs, and we’re not getting tour cards so play golf. I can’t imagine we’re landing inside divots every hole, and I can’t imagine putting your ball beside the divot if it lands inside it will make a difference on the round. This game always evens itself out. We pay a lot of money to play this sport, so why not play it the way you want? As amateurs, I truly don’t think most of us can become better ball strikers playing absurd lies. As you get better, then challenge yourself more. If you’re in a tournament, well ya you’re screwed, otherwise enjoy the greenery

For sure, most do exactly that.  Except for our men's league (bunch of retired guys wanting to believe we're on tour ), most groups I play with move balls out of fairway divots.  We also allow the balls on the desertscape rock (mostly 3/4 minus) to be lifted and the rocks brushed away to hit off dirt/really fine gravel.  No need to damage clubs or oneself.  Everyone plays the same minor rule mofication so all is fair and the game is more enjoyable.  The purists opine and we listen intently .

[RickyBobby_PR]

The rules apply to the game of golf, it has nothing to do with the conditions of one’s course, so it’s not that guys think the group is on tour, or that it’s not fair the tour gets relief from obstructions built to put in a professional event, it’s not that the tour courses get daily maintenance that a local muni doesn’t, it’s the game of golf. The golfer that plays a $30 muni plays under the same rules as the golfer at a high end private club, or a golfer playing a top end public course.

Imagine a high school football team wanting to change the rules for field goals and extra points when there’s snow on the ground because the pros get the field cleared where the ball is placed for the kicker but they don’t have a shovel or a machine to clear the able the field. 

[DaveP043]

15 hours ago, Wheelieb said:

Patrick Reed? Or do we just forget about him since he went to LIV?

As I remember, Reed did nothing wrong in the "embedded ball saga".  He informed another player (not required), suspected his ball was embedded, asked a nearby volunteer marshal what she saw (she didn't see a bounce), marked and lifted the ball and set it aside to make sure he didn't clean it (per 16.4), still wasn't certain, called an official to make the evaluation, and was allowed relief.  If anyone can tell me which of those steps is against the rules of golf, I'll be astounded.  

Edited February 9 by DaveP043

[DaveP043]

I've played along in this thread for a while now, and not seen anything new to change my mind.  I agreed with the MGS feature article as written, and with the position of the Ruling Bodies.  Most important, divot holes are not "exceptional" enough to merit an exception to the principle of playing the ball as it lies.  Secondarily, even if there was enough justification to allow relief, its impossible to write a rule with specific enough criteria to be enforced consistently.  The Rules are intended to allow all players to be treated consistently, not necessarily fairly.  And yeah, ending up in a divot hole is unfair, but any rule allowing relief, short of full-time preferred lies in a fairway, would be nearly impossible to interpret consistently.  

 

[Preeway]

3 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I've played along in this thread for a while now, and not seen anything new to change my mind.  I agreed with the MGS feature article as written, and with the position of the Ruling Bodies.  Most important, divot holes are not "exceptional" enough to merit an exception to the principle of playing the ball as it lies.  Secondarily, even if there was enough justification to allow relief, its impossible to write a rule with specific enough criteria to be enforced consistently.  The Rules are intended to allow all players to be treated consistently, not necessarily fairly.  And yeah, ending up in a divot hole is unfair, but any rule allowing relief, short of full-time preferred lies in a fairway, would be nearly impossible to interpret consistently.  

 

I would have to agree with everything you stated here. The only reason I don’t think we will ever see this rule change (even though i still think it’s dumb to have to hit out of a divot) is because it would be near impossible to write the rule to be easily applied in all scenarios. 

[DaveP043]

26 minutes ago, Preeway said:

The only reason I don’t think we will ever see this rule change . . . . is because it would be near impossible to write the rule

Who really knows.  In my own direct experience, the Rules staff has been pretty trustworthy in explaining the reasons behind their choices when revising (or choosing not to revise) the Rules.  They've said the primary reason is the departure from the principle playing the ball as it lies.  I know other folks don't trust the USGA, I think that's not appropriate, at least for the Rules group.

Edited February 9 by DaveP043

[Stuka44]

4 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Rules are intended to allow all players to be treated consistently, not necessarily fairly. 

I can't believe I read this.  Rules are enacted, and applied as consistently as possible, to ensure that any game is as FAIR AS POSSIBLE. To say that something is unfair, as I believe many have said many times, is to acknowledge that someone else has received an advantage.  That is part of the definition of fair.  To allow and sanction someone receiving an advantage, as in this case, is the antithesis of why you make rules, and to avoid ones responsibility.

 

4 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

would be nearly impossible to interpret consistently. 

I could go on and on about this statement, AGAIN.  This statement  is asserting a fact, not already in evidence. NOBODY knows, how well or troublesome, the best written rule(which by the way could be changed as needed), could be applied, nor how many people, as has been suggested by some previously I'm not sure who, that players across the world at every level , would actively and immediately seek to "extort" this rule in every possible way, and and as if now possessed begin to cheat their buddies in play it as it lies events with them, taking relief without checking with anyone, if something is a divot or not.  By the way if he is going to do it over divots, he's doing it already about everything else he can, no matter how well written that rule is.  And he is going to continue to do it to you, until his is banned from the sport, or kicked out of your group!!

 

6 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The rules apply to the game of golf, it has nothing to do with the conditions of one’s course,

This has been its own multiple pages discussion in the past!   Yes you can play by the same rules as the professionals, but because of conditions they have,  you ARE NOT playing the same game in any fashion.  Their score relative to what it could be, is directly benefitted by spectators to stop bounding balls, grandstands to stop over clubbed balls, from being a penalty, spectators to find lost balls, the list goes on and on.   Now I'm not proposing that something needs to be done about any of these things, where the rules of golf are concerned.  To state that when professionals and the rest of us are trying to put up the lowest score possible, that they are not benefitted, factually,,  by the conditions under which they play, is to ignore reality plain and simple. Especially when their conditions render certain outcomes, and most importantly some rules of the game no longer applicable to them.  I understand that not every inequity can, or should be corrected.  To ignore the discrepancy or pretend it doesn't exist, is bad leadership.   

 

19 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

but all I’m reading is is don’t care about the rules and because a professional event goes out of their way with using certain rules and have better conditions than I do I’m against the rules and will do my own thing.

 I do care about the rules, but I care more about the fact that the people making the rules choose do ignore the fact, that they want me to follow rules, that actually aren't equally applicable to everyone who plays the game!! and since we've begun to throw darts, all I read from you is "I'm a mindless rules drone" and until the USGA & R&A tell me that a rule may need to changed,  there can be no such thing, as a rule that needs to be changed."

Edited February 9 by Stuka44

[Another Steve]

Ya know dave, after the “getting ridiculous” thread I spent some time thinking about all of the different courses I have played and walked. Played some cow pastures, some decent courses, a few nice public courses, a couple resort courses, and a few private clubs. I’ve also walked along watching a couple PGA events, a US Open, a US Senior Open…. 
 

i’ve come to the conclusion that my opinion on divots comes from:

a: playing mostly public courses where the fairways are basically just the same ground as the rough that was cut down to about an inch instead of 3”. The ground is hard (or soft n soggy but not wet) & uneven under the grass, almost nobody replaces or fixes divots, and the carts don’t have fill mix to repair anyway. On these courses the  fairway conditions make the lie marginal  and might be better off in the divot if the ball would otherwise be “sitting down” in the fairway grass. Matter of principle vs disadvantage playing out of the divot. 
 

b: the few times that i have played courses with fairways that resemble my living room carpet and are probably slightly softer. The ball is sitting up on a couple eighth inches of grass and the ground is soft and almost spongy. It gives a bit so you can get clean contact and take a proper divot. In these cases sitting in a divot right next to that perfect plush turf  just seems unfair and IMHO does penalize you more than on a local muni where the lie sucks anyway. 

i still feel it should be free relief but definitely understand trying to define stuff in the rules. I spent 30 years as an ice hockey official. 20 of those as a seminar instructor , mid-am district evaluation coordinator, supervisor, and local association training director. My mentors were literally the guys that wrote the USA Hockey rulebook. That book had to be written so that 12 yr olds and coaches could understand it and we still had coaches interpreting rules incorrectly and 12 yr olds asking the dumbest questions in the seminar. 
 

Edited February 9 by Another Steve

[cnosil]

5 minutes ago, Stuka44 said:

I can't believe I read this.  Rules are enacted, and applied as consistently as possible, to ensure that any game is as FAIR AS POSSIBLE. To say that something is unfair, as I believe many have said many times, is to acknowledge that someone else has received an advantage.  That is part of the definition of fair.  To allow and sanction someone receiving an advantage, as in this case, is the antithesis of why you make rules, and to avoid ones responsibility.

 

This is why the rules are written to minimize varied interpretation to have them applied consistently.   The OB rule is one example.  Hit the ball OB and you must take stroke and distance  penalty unless you have invoked the MLR;  many people consider; based on numerous forum discussion, that this rule is unfair.    

I have seen examples of what I could consider unfair.  Example is the 2022 DELL Matchplay event where the penalty area line was redrawn.   

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/03/23/golf-rules-bryson-dechambeau-relief-sprinkler-thomas-pieters/

[DaveP043]

12 minutes ago, Stuka44 said:

To say that something is unfair, as I believe many have said many times, is to acknowledge that someone else has received an advantage. 

Its unfair that a bad shot can have a great result, just as its unfair when a good shot has a poor result.  The Rules aren't written to enforce fairness, if they were they'd have to correct excessively good luck as well as bad luck.  Rules essentially draw lines, between what is allowed and what is not.  Consider the definition of OB, is it fair that a millimeter can be the difference between a ball in bounds, and a long walk back to replay the shot?  Of course not, but a line must be drawn.  And that line is drawn very precisely, its easy to understand EXACTLY where the division lies.  It may be difficult to determine the exact position of the ball, but you can know with certainty the dividing line.  You can never write a rule regarding divots with anything close to that level of precision.  

And I'm not worried about cheaters, I want a Rule that ever rules official on a course, and I DO volunteer rules officiating, is working with the exact same understanding.  I want every player to be able to read the rule and have the same understanding.  We might have a discussion about the facts (where exactly is the ball, OB or not?), but we must be able to agree on what the rule requires.

10 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I have seen examples of what I could consider unfair.  Example is the 2022 DELL Matchplay event where the penalty area line was redrawn.   

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/03/23/golf-rules-bryson-dechambeau-relief-sprinkler-thomas-pieters/

That was interesting, when they realized that they had marked the Penalty Area line in a way that hadn't been intended.  Since it was Match Play, it was reasonable to correct that marking, since each player in every match was playing the identical markings as his Opponent.  It would have been unfair to change the markings during the play of a hole.

 

[Stuka44]

6 minutes ago, cnosil said:

This is why the rules are written to minimize varied interpretation to have them applied consistently.   The OB rule is one example.  Hit the ball OB and you must take stroke and distance  penalty unless you have invoked the MLR;  many people consider; based on numerous forum discussion, that this rule is unfair.

Thanks for the response.  I agree in part.  Yes I remember vividly being party to the OB discussion. YIKES!  I don't think that rule is "unfair", I just think its "dumb", because it is based on an arbitrary decision by someone likely over 100 years ago, that thought it should be treated differently than going into a pond. ANYWAYS!  It's not unfair because you and I have an equal chance of striking out ball out of bounds off the tee, and neither one of us have done anything to affect to any degree what happens when the other strikes the ball.

I appreciate that the game wants the most consistency possible.   It a great goal to have.  But when people defending not making the best rule possible,  acknowledge that its unfair, then based on definition this is acknowledging that I have been disadvantaged,  by  in this case the lack of rule, to protect me from being forced to play a much more difficult, shot every competitor was not exposed to equally....Setting aside of course ABSOLUTE RANDOMNESS of bounces off of all the crap around a golf course. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

28 minutes ago, Stuka44 said:

This has been its own multiple pages discussion in the past!   Yes you can play by the same rules as the professionals, but because of conditions they have,  you ARE NOT playing the same game in any fashion.  Their score relative to what it could be, is directly benefitted by spectators to stop bounding balls, grandstands to stop over clubbed balls, from being a penalty, spectators to find lost balls, the list goes on and on. 

You keep making this claim in all kinds of threads about anything related to the game and the tour. We all play the same game under the conditions of the course or venue we are at. It’s a lazy argument and a.way to argue for not following rules and in a lot of people’s cases make themselves feel better about their game and to find ways to go finish with a lower score. Not much different than not wanting to play from an area covered in gravel and take an unplayable so they say well I’m not a pro and I don’t get paid to play my clubs or I don’t get a free replacement t so I’m going to create a rule that allows me to take a free drop. 
 

If you don’t want to pay by the rules and have your own rules that’s great go for it. But to use that as the reason to change the rules of golf is crazy.

33 minutes ago, Stuka44 said:

I do care about the rules, but I care more about the fact that the people making the rules choose do ignore the fact, that they want me to follow rules, that actually aren't equally applicable to everyone who plays the game!! and since we've begun to throw darts, all I read from you is "I'm a mindless rules drone" and until the USGA & R&A tell me that a rule may need to changed,  there can be no such thing, as a rule that needs to be changed."

The rules are applied equally for everyone. Using the conditions in a professional tour and comparing them to what happens in the world of every day golf to say they aren’t applied equally is another crazy stance. Every golfer following the rules in handicap rounds have all the same abilities to apply MLRs just as the pros do and to apply any of the reliefs options the pros do if they encounter them.

Im all for rule changes that makes sense and that don’t interfere with the concept that golf is meant to be played outdoor in various conditions on a big round ball covered in grass and other materials and that the ball is played as it lies unless specified relief is stated in the rulebook. A rule for reliefs from a divot is not simple and goes against the basis of play it as it lies.

i am fan of fine recent rule changes for penalty areas, balls on the green, and so on that came out in the last several years. Its one of the few things the ruling bodies got right and they are simple and didn’t change the fundamental aspect of the game

[DaveP043]

26 minutes ago, Stuka44 said:

in this case the lack of rule, to protect me from being forced to play a much more difficult, shot every competitor was not exposed to equally

This brings to mind the player in the group in front of you, who landed in a footprint in a bunker.  But being a proper golfer, he rakes the bunker.  Now YOU have substantially IMPROVED conditions, as compared to those the other guy faced.  Seems completely UNFAIR that YOU, and every player following you, receive a HUGE advantage.  Perhaps the FAIR thing for him to do was to smooth the bunker, and then make a nice big footprint, so that you can face more fair conditions.

[Stuka44]

14 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Its unfair that a bad shot can have a great result, just as its unfair when a good shot has a poor result.

Dave I appreciate your insight on the rules, and the rationale for them. As others have criticized me for not reading them word, for word, and implied  that this therefore should render me unable to have an opinion, you have not.

I believe that the difference is that I have absolutely no problem with what is actually randomness, and acts of the higher power, like a ricochet off a tree, or a gust of wind that blows my ball into a pond, when the guy who hit 15 seconds before me had dead calm.  I remember the OB discussion, as did cnosil. I do not think OB is "unfair", I just thought it was dumb, due to arbitrary reasoning, but that is not relevant here.

I guess my main point, and this is directed at the powers that be, not you, obviously is that to consider conditions created by actions(club divots) or omissions(footprint left in bunker) of other players the same as actually random outcomes, which all players are subject to equally is erroneous.  They are created obstacles, which occur at unequal chances of occurrence. This is "unfair", and that is something rules should be created to eliminate.  Now the consistency, manner, and how exactly to implement it, while difficult, should not be an excuse to do nothing.  Consistent, or more consistent application, manner, process and routine,  would be a 'work in progress" for sure.  Inaction to correct something that is "actually unfair", which by its very definition is something that rules are created to correct, is cowardly, dismissive, and just plain wrong on part of the rules makers.  That's just my opinion, and I know you don't agree, with it.  But that is what makes this fun.

I also understand your points as to the difficulty, and that it may end up being the least consistent rule their is. I know golf doesn't want to be like any other sport, but how about with the best description possible you get 1 rules official request for divot, or no divot.  If it is a divot you keep your relief, if not because you are "pushing the rule, and believe a mower scalp, may be a divot, even though you know better,  and are denied, then you get no more relief, so hope you don't end up in the grand canyon beaver pelt divot I mentioned earlier , in the last round....(Never go for it I know).

 

Great Discussion Everyone!

 

 

 

[Stuka44]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

A rule for reliefs from a divot is not simple and goes against the basis of play it as it lies.

Wow that is really right back to the rules don't tell me it goes against something in the rules, so that other person should just keep quiet, and shouldn't have an opinion, because, he doesn't agree with the rules.  Got it

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, Stuka44 said:

Wow that is really right back to the rules don't tell me it goes against something in the rules, so that other person should just keep quiet, and shouldn't have an opinion, because, he doesn't agree with the rules.  Got it

Not at all. It means there needs to be a compelling reason to change a fundamental aspect of golf such as play to as it lies and something that doesn’t happen that often isn’t one of those. Ad as the article Dave posted that explains what’s considered or how rules changes are approached divot relief doesn’t meet that criteria and why has been pointed out multiple times including the fact the RBs considered this very thing and decided to leave it as is.

 

[Irish-Assassin]

The rules of golf are the rules, yes some may say it’s not right to expect mere mortals to have to play the same standards as the professional but you can also learn from the professionals out there.  What I mean by this and let’s be 100% honest here.

How many mere mortals actually practice this shot, I for one will go find some divot’s or make some on the practice facility and hit different shots to learn how to do this. 

That’s your advantage over everyone else that decides not to. 
It’s worth it to see the faces of your playing foursome when you hit a guided missile on to the green. 
It’s even better when playing match play, just watch your opponent crumble after you do this. 

[HeathS16]

Nope. I do not agree with this at all. There is no single argument that could convince me that golfers should not get relief. Even if this notion goes against the idea of golf as a challenge the fact of the matter is that the golfer executed the shot as intended and as required by the course and should therefore, get rewarded for it.  That being, said, the article did make some good points, I am just firmly on the side of getting relief.  Which is odd considering I am almost never in the fairway lololololololol

[RickyBobby_PR]

27 minutes ago, HeathS16 said:

Nope. I do not agree with this at all. There is no single argument that could convince me that golfers should not get relief. Even if this notion goes against the idea of golf as a challenge the fact of the matter is that the golfer executed the shot as intended and as required by the course and should therefore, get rewarded for it.  That being, said, the article did make some good points, I am just firmly on the side of getting relief.  Which is odd considering I am almost never in the fairway lololololololol

What if the golfer didn’t execute the shot and got a good bounce from a bad shot and the ball ended up back on the fairway but it landed in a divot?

[HeathS16]

2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

What if the golfer didn’t execute the shot and got a good bounce from a bad shot and the ball ended up back on the fairway but it landed in a divot?

Simple:  it’s in the fairway so thank your lucky stars and get relief. The fairway is meant to be a place where you have an advantage when playing from it, regardless of how it got there. I used the example in my first post as it is the major argument for relief. I dont  have a problem with getting good breaks in the fairway, no matter how the ball ended up there. 
I love this debate. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

3 minutes ago, HeathS16 said:

Simple:  it’s in the fairway so thank your lucky stars and get relief. The fairway is meant to be a place where you have an advantage when playing from it, regardless of how it got there. I used the example in my first post as it is the major argument for relief. I dont  have a problem with getting good breaks in the fairway, no matter how the ball ended up there. 
I love this debate. 

The problem with the support for relief is there is no accepting the good with the bad and only want good. Those in favor aren’t willing to put their ball in the woods when it hits a tree and kicks out somewhere. 
 

The number of divots people have to hit out in their golf lifetime is very low.