These Guys are Good

[JBones]

Has there been a more true slogan for a sport than "These Guys are Good"? I don't think so. We have a Nationwide event here this week and I followed the Monday qualifying yesterday. My cousin was going to enter, but being a poor college student, he didn't want to pony up the $350 for an amateur to qualify. He is more than capable of putting up ridiculous numbers at either of the qualifying sites, but we figured he could comfortably put up a 64-65 at either.........that wouldn't even have sniffed a spot. At both courses, there were course records of 61 set by the medalists; one course took a 64 to get in a playoff and the other took a 63 to get in a playoff. Our reigning city champion and IU standout David Mills was the only local kid to make it, with a 63 (I personally thought that he should have received an exemption for this event, due to his credentials and being a local kid). I knew these guys were good, but man, they're REALLY good.

 

Check out the coverage on the Golf Channel, starting Thursday after PGA coverage, Friday before PGA coverage, and then starting at 7:30PM EST on both Saturday and Sunday. The course is about a mile from my house.

 

I am a little disappointed, because there was a local news story about how the PGA competition committee (or whatever they're called) asked for the course to be tamed for the tournament. They had to cut the native grass to 8" and second cuts were widened anywhere from 6'-20' in some areas. These guys are good, so let them play in the same conditions that the members have to play, not absolute perfect conditions.

[revkev]

Thanks JBones I'll be watching.

 

Course set ups is one of my pet peeves - they should let them play the course as it is just as we do - if they shoot lights out great - if they struggle a bit fine - but let them show up and play the course -

 

I've been to PGA tour events in eight different states and honestly with the exception of Whistling straits each course looked the same and was set up the same - the US Open courses of course had higher rough and narrower fairways but the others were like US Open light courses - Whistling seems like its from a different country or maybe even planet.

 

I've also been to three different nationwide events (Hogan or Nike included in that) in three different states - Indiana included (love your state JBones just understand that if you come here in the summer you're going to hit it 10 percent shorter than you do there - I was wicked long in Indiana) Each course on that tour looks...... indentical - the one in Fort Wayne, Indiana was a regular of mine because they allowed pastors to play mondays for free.

 

I've played in a couple of Hooter's tours events in Kendallville Indiana. It's very easy to Monday qualify on that tour - basically its show up and break 80 because they only have about 70 regulars on their tour. Or at least that was the case in the late 90's. Making the cut? You better go low because those 70 guys could play. One of them one year was Chad Campbell.

 

Bottom line I don't get why they can't just let the course be the course so that we know if its Connecticut or Indiana or San Francisco or Oakland Hills or Innisbrooke without them having to show us local scenes to prove it.

[JBones]

Bottom line I don't get why they can't just let the course be the course so that we know if its Connecticut or Indiana or San Francisco or Oakland Hills or Innisbrooke without them having to show us local scenes to prove it.

You certainly wouldn't know this course was in southern Indiana without them showing local scenes to prove it. This is the crown jewel of Indiana. It is absolutely gorgeous and ranked 35th (by Golf Digest) in the US. As it was, it would bring a 4 handicap to tears, it is that tough. According to the group of Nationwide Tour players that came for the press conference a couple months ago "it will be the nicest course they play on the Tour".

[revkev]

At least give us a taste, is it French lick? Seems to me there's a Nationwide event there every year.

 

RP I think the better you are as a handicap player the more you recognize the gap betweeen yourself and someone who does this for real. You and I basically have the same index although mine just dipped to 1.9. (That's about to be history with this bout of pneumonia - I don't even know when I can hit balls again much less play.)

 

Of course there's also that gap between us and the plus handicappers like JB's cousin. Living in South Florida I see tons and tons of those guys when they migrate here for the winter so I'm getting to where I can recognize the difference between them and the ones who are a level ahead. Good Nationwide guys are generally in the 300 and 400's in the world. I know a couple of guys who play the Nationwide tour regularly though not so succesfully. Because they travel though they are going to shoot 66, 67 in casual rounds about anywhere they play. I'd hazzard to guess that they'd have no trouble pushing themselves off as PGA tour players with most golfers they meet. They wouldn't because they know better.

 

I could go on and on about this but I've got one interesting story. Seven summers ago I was touring my son John around the Midwest looking at colleges. John is the one in the Navy now - he has very little golf game but he can hit it a mile and then some and loves to play when he can. We were in Monmouth Illinois and after his college interview went to a little muni up the street. It was a classic but there in the shop was a picture of Shawn Micheel holding the Wannamaker trophy with a bunch of guys in that shop. I asked about it. They said he grew up there and always came back to play. He had been back a couple of weeks earlier and they arranged a match where he played his own ball and the pro, club champ and another low single digit handicapper played a scramble against him. He shot 63 and won by 2. Get the point - against the club pro, club champ and another single digit guy playing a scramble the touring pro wins playing his ball.

[JBones]

At least give us a taste, is it French lick? Seems to me there's a Nationwide event there every year.

It's in Newburgh, just east of Evansville. They have a lot of tournaments in French Lick, but I think the only professional tourney they've had there is the PGA Professional National Championship.

RP I think the better you are as a handicap player the more you recognize the gap betweeen yourself and someone who does this for real. You and I basically have the same index although mine just dipped to 1.9. (That's about to be history with this bout of pneumonia - I don't even know when I can hit balls again much less play.)

 

Of course there's also that gap between us and the plus handicappers like JB's cousin. Living in South Florida I see tons and tons of those guys when they migrate here for the winter so I'm getting to where I can recognize the difference between them and the ones who are a level ahead. Good Nationwide guys are generally in the 300 and 400's in the world. I know a couple of guys who play the Nationwide tour regularly though not so succesfully. Because they travel though they are going to shoot 66, 67 in casual rounds about anywhere they play. I'd hazzard to guess that they'd have no trouble pushing themselves off as PGA tour players with most golfers they meet. They wouldn't because they know better.

What you stated above is how I know my cousin is going to make it. Yes, he can go and shoot 66-67 on any course in the world, and as you said there are several players that can do that. Where he stands out above the better lower and + handicaps is that he can go anywhere, play horrible and still not shoot more than 2-3 over par; myself (and I'm sure most people can also speak to this), being a single digit handi, can have a horrible day and shoot 85. More often than not the guys that shoot between -4 and +1 in every round are in contention more than a guy going out and firing one 63.

[JMiller]

Well I see any 18 hole tournament as a bit silly and a complete crap shot as to who wins and the winning score. Most mini tours play 36 and 54 hole events, Nationwide and PGA Tours are always 72 hole events, I think that is done for a good reason, how often have we seen the 18 hole leader take it coast to coast so to speak to win the tournament? How often have we seen the 36 and 54 hole leaders falter on Sunday and not win the tournament after 72 holes? I have played in a lot of 1 day tournament events and I always go into them knowing if I don't have a special day I will not win that event.

 

I feel that for a average pga tour pro if you gave them a grade based on their possible scoring ranges it would look something like this --> F ~ 5 or more over par... D ~ 1 to 5 over... C or B ~ 2 under to Even... A ~ 3 to 5 under par... A+ ~ 6 under or better... The average scoring on the pga tour for players over a season is 69 to 73 if that tells you something, yes they all can go extremely low on a given round but what can they shot when they don't have the A and A+ game more in the C and D range that allows them to stay in the tournament and hopefully find some magic the next day.

[revkev]

It's also hugely signficant to me that the differences in scoring averages on tour are so tight - there is not a huge difference between those guys, a missed putt here or there, a poor decision, a bad swing, a ball in a hazzard, a slightly chunked chip, a non-crisp sand shot. You get the drift. Conversely the great player finds a way to make that great play out of trouble or hits it just that much closer on his approaches or makes a putt or two extra.

 

Of course they play 72 holes where as for us 36 is normally more than enough to seperate the wheat from the chaff.

 

JBones have you ever played Purgatory up in Nobelsville? I love that course. I actually purchased my current irons (well the heads they've been reshafted twice) in Indy and used them for the first time on that course - that was 8 years ago. Where did that time go?

[JMiller]

I would have majority of Tour Pros listed as a +2 to +4 course handicaps, college players probably 0 to +2 that are very competitive. So getting between the 3 handicap and the +3 comes down to very small things.

[revkev]

Somehow the difference between me a 1.9 and a touring pro who is around a plus 3 seems like a heck of a lot more than five shots a round - it might be in real scoring but I'm playing as a senior at the length recommended by the Florida Golf Association 6,400 to 6,500 yards - I average right around 75 (that's going to take a huge, huge hit with this time off from playing). A lot different from a flat belly playing from the tips at 7,300 averaging 70.

[revkev]

That would be me RP and JMiller - 240 is a poke for me off the tee - but I'm have shag bag wedge and putter in the back of my van will travel and the shag bag has 36 used versions of my Nike One Tour D ball in it - no surprises around the greens for me.

 

Funny with this Pneumonia I'll miss time but guess what I'll be able to do some of while I'm missing it - you got it - chipping and putting - that should facislitate my come back.

[Matt Saternus]

Richard speaks the truth: 240 is only short on internet golf forums. I sat on the "Long Drive" hole at a charity scramble a couple weeks ago and 240 won. Every numb nuts who came through said, "240, pssshhh, that's short." and proceeded to hit it maybe 210.

[revkev]

Thanks guys and I do know it's true that 240 isn't that short - I'm short for my handicap but even fellow low single digit guys will acknowledge that if we were to figure out average drive I'd hang with them because for the ones they hit in the fairway 25 yards past me they also hit them in the woods or worse now and again and I'm still hanging around the middle.

 

For the record I have won some longest drives at charity events with that 240 down the middle - I didn't magically get longer on that one drive trust me.

 

It is amazing what focus on the short game will do RP isn't it? I have a good pastor friend who's all stoked because he just got a new Ping Driver. Ready for the senior tour he said. (He can't break 90) I told him any tour starts at the other end of the bag. I may loath the axiom drive for show putt for dough but I will extall the true one - drive so set up that putt for dough and then work to be able to make the putt when you have it or to save you when the drive ain't so hot.

 

What makes the pros the pros so good is that they bring the whole package - the length, the accuracy (GIR), the chipping and of course the putting (boy can those guys putt) oh and let's not forget the fact that they manage the heck out of their games - the guys at the top that is - I think that's most often the deciding factor between tiers at that level. Who knows how to stay with what he has the best. That's what I love to watch when I watch them - how do they manage the course, how do they recover when they hit a bad shot, have a bad hole, a bad round. That's where the cream always rises.

[JMiller]

rev, I have a great story that you will appreciate.

 

I played with an old time Tour Pro he played during the Lee Trevino era in his 70s now. I was playing the Tips at Legends 'Moorland' course in Myrtle Beach, SC this man played the men's white tee on the course, majority of holes I was well past his drives by about 20 or 30 yards. He was 100% time straight and 240 to 250 I would guess his short drives about 230ish. A long story short I lost that day in score, the man flat out had a short game and putter to envy. If he was on a GIR within 10 feet I almost gave him the putt for birdie, anything in 5 feet was automatic never missed. If he had been playing the same tee I might have been 50 to 70 yards longer then him but at the end of the day I think he still ends up beating my score.

 

Anyways, Yes JBones Cousin might have a very good shot at "making it" it depends on his motivation and mental state at this point to be able to drop a 72 as his worst score possible under pressure. I know a lot of guys that in a casual round can shot 64 but get them under pressure where the mind starts going instead of being relaxed it turns into a 72 or 75 like blink of an eye.

[JBones]

Anyways, Yes JBones Cousin might have a very good shot at "making it" it depends on his motivation and mental state at this point to be able to drop a 72 as his worst score possible under pressure. I know a lot of guys that in a casual round can shot 64 but get them under pressure where the mind starts going instead of being relaxed it turns into a 72 or 75 like blink of an eye.

I now know that he will make it. He was RIDICULOUS in the pro-am yesterday. They were playing anywhere from 5-40yds in front of the pro boxes, so I can't do a real comparison, but he played well enough that the pro was very impressed. He shot an easy 5-6 under on his own ball, which included playing a 5 hole stretch at 6 under (eagle, birdie, birdie, birdie, birdie).

[revkev]

Great stories -

 

I know that guy JMiller - at my best I am that guy - I do nothing of note until you add the scores up - I have a guy whom I play with alot who's a 14 - he's always raving about this guy or that and I'm always saying, "Craig my handicap is lower than his." So last year he ends up paired with one of the guys he would always rave about at our league midseason scramble - a guy I play with regularly and have never lost to head to head. The guy is at least 30 yards longer than I am though and he's relatively straight - from there though it gets pretty funky. At any rate the next week Craig goes, "I can't believe I'm saying this but you're better than Mike for real." "No sh..... genius - we've been in the same league for six years, we play from the same tees, we've played together in lots of local tournaments and I have a lower handicap and I've always finished ahead of him in everyone of those tournaments."

 

There's not much going on with me other than getting the ball in the hole. And I know when I see a Lucas Glover than I'm not him. Other than those types I feel pretty good opening my wallet and throwing down a few bucks on my game.

 

JBones your cousin has to move to Florida if he wants to succeed in golf - the sooner the better - this is a big, big pond for players.

[JBones]

So, ultimately, the level that Alex reaches will be determined by his mental state, both concerning his goals, his achieving those goals, his preparation & his performance in competition...He obviously has the "Gift"...Now it's up to him to capitalize..Less than 1% of the golfers out there have his talent level, probably closer to .05% for his age group...But there's some other 16-17yo somewhere out there who's at his level and he's practicing as though he was in the 75th percentile..Never satisfied, never stopping and always driving for more...

 

This kid's not in Indiana...He's in California, Alabama, Texas or Oregon...And when everyone else has gone home for the evening, he's out there hitting and putting in the dark, visualing one day doing it in front of thousands at Augusta...Tell Alex to dream Large!...It'll pay off for him, and you think that you had fun yesterday?..You'll be in heaven lookin down the practice line at Augusta..This time, you better take more pictures!...lol...

 

The Best....

 

Fairways and Greens 4ever......

He's probably on the course playing or practicing more than most pros. You seen that commercial with the kid pounding balls, while tons of people come and go........thats Alex. He works harder than anybody, because he wants it that bad. I think he said probably 10 times yesterday "this is why I practice so hard, so we can be out here doing this every week".

 

 

 

JBones your cousin has to move to Florida if he wants to succeed in golf - the sooner the better - this is a big, big pond for players.

He's planning on going to college all four years here in Evansville and then going to Q school. Where he goes from there, who knows. He really is a very intelligent kid and is preparing for life as if golf wasn't in the equation.

[revkev]

Don't be fooled University of Florida is a great school! Actually I have former church member who's a prof at Evansville, very nice school, Indiana kids are always well grounded. I hope he plays well - let him know that anytime he wants to come to Florida he's got a place - lots of college kids come down here to get their games in shape for the season. See them on the range at my two courses all winter long. Mine is a kid friendly house - we have three grown - one still with us - two of our three grown kids were born in Indiana and the third considers himself a Hoosier.

 

Even in heaven I'll be proud to say I lived in Indiana for ten years.

[revkev]

A couple of things from my Indiana experience. First, I could always get control of a voters meeting by bringing up two out of the big three schools and stepping back - whatever the church controversy was would quickly fade into the background. Second, I onetime went to the Trustees to ask if I could put up a basketball hoop. The chair hugged me and said, "You're really planning on staying with us. We're so happy!" (At six and a half years I held the longest pastorate there ever until my succesor came along and smashed it. I'm very happy for that because those people deserve the best.

 

Oh and as a bonus the High School basketball tournament changed to class basketball my first year at that church. That was always a conversation starter. I'd imagine it still is.

 

Hoosiers rock!!!!!!!

[JMiller]

Jesus JM, "I know a lot of guys that in a casual round can shoot a 64"...What in the hell do they put in the water down your way?...lol...No, seriously, I qualified for the Sunnehanna Amateur Tournament for Champions by winning the now defunct Tri-State Amateur..At the time the winner of the Sunnehanna tourney got a Masters invite...It's champions list is a who's who of the PGA Tour roster...

 

it was more a figure of speech but somewhat literal... Greensboro, Charlotte, Raleigh, Pinehurst are home to a chunk of PGA Tour Pros, Web.com (old Nationwide) Tour Pros, Hooters Mini Tour Pros

 

Here is a list of Carolinas Golf Association people and NC/SC college guys that played in the US Open I dunno what they put in the Water in NC / SC but it seems to have a lot of great players come from the area

Jonathan Byrd (exempt) - Anderson, SC

1999 CGA Player of the Year; 1999 Carolinas Amateur; 1995 Carolinas Junior

Bill Haas (exempt) - Charlotte, NC - Wake Forest University

2003 CGA Player of the Year; 1999 Carolinas Junior

Webb Simpson (exempt) - Raleigh, NC - Wake Forest University

2006 CGA Player of the Year; 1999 NC Boys 13 & Under; 2001 NC Four-Ball

Tommy Biershenk (qualified) - Inman, SC

1991 Carolinas Junior; 1990 & 1991 South Carolina Junior

Dustin Johnson (exempt) - Columbia, SC - Coastal Carolina University

2007 CGA Player of the Year

Davis Love III (qualified) - Charlotte, NC - University of North Carolina

David Mathis (qualified) - Winston-Salem, NC - Campbell University

Matthew Bettencourt (qualified) - Duncan, SC

Lucas Glover (exempt) - Greenville, SC

Carl Pettersson (exempt) - lives in Raleigh, NC

Darron Stiles (qualified) - lives in Pinehurst, NC

Kyle Thompson (1st alternate from the Tenn Sectional) - Greenville, SC

1996 Carolinas Junior

[revkev]

Ah we have a few over here as well - they live where the sunshines and the weather is warm - I know where I can find John Huston on the range, same thing with Brittany, Furyk, Tom Pernice and the list goes on and on and on -

 

Who wouldn't want to live if SC or Florida or AZ if golf were your profession? Cali looses out because of the taxes. Very happy to be suffering for Jesus here.

[JMiller]

Well getting back to the topic "these guys are good" I have a conversation that I have in mind here. Why do you think a mini tour player (call that AA ball if you want) never breaks through to play web.com tour (AAA) and some off weeks on the pga tour (major league)?

 

You can't really say because of their skills as all of these guys are +2 to +4 handicaps and are very good. I would look more in towards the mental mind set and approach to the game more then ability personally. It comes down to the old saying Bobby Jones had "competitive golf is played on a 5inch course... the space between your ears".

 

I think "making it" comes down to having the ability to perfectly evaluate risk versus reward on versus shots. This includes what some might think as "straight forward" shots. Look at tour pros they are in the center of the fairway with a pin in the center of the green they still evaluate different shots that they feel will work the best to get it close (some prefer a slight cut over a slight draw for example). I think this goes for everything, espesually tee shots, people don't even process a target and a club from the tee box unless it is a par 3. The catch is a person has to be confident in themselves to make a tough shot happen, the backfire is when that person is over confident and try something that is truly a low percentage for their abilities.

 

I would like to see a bunch of Mini Tour players come out to Duke and see what the average score is. If you put a bunch of pga tour pros on the same course blind with the same yardage book i would guess the scores come out a little differently a stroke or two on average lower. Just feel that tour players have more realization of their games and what is a good high percentage shot over the mini tour players a lot of times.

[revkev]

Effortless and then Kamboom - I've seen Freddie swing - can't remember the first time but I think it was at Westchester in the mid 80's. Last time was a few months back over at TPC and again about a month or so before that at the Transitions - dead on - looks like the same guy. Amazing - Lots of the top Champions players are like that - they hit the ball as well as or better now than in their primes on tour.

 

I do agree it's primarily mental but there's also this little flat stick. (Of course half of that is mental anyway) I think putting often times seperates the wheat from the chaff. Putting isn't going to take a guy who hits it crooked and 225 and make him into a touring pro but it is often the element that takes a guy who is Nationwide and moves him up or middle of the pack and puts him in the winners circle or conversly takes a guy who's arguably the greatest player ever and demotes him to a top 10 player currently. Someone with a preditory animal name is coming to mind here.

 

Isn't it 100 plus at Congregessional? You're going to have some mental meltdowns in that type of weather.

 

I think it's a combo of mental accuity and putting that makes the difference at the top levels of the game.