Vokey grind guidance for dummies?

[matt_puttercup]

Well, I guess I should say "dummy" and not "dummies," don't want to unfairly group anyone else with me.  

I live/play in the Puget Sound area surrounding Seattle, so the fairways tend to be soft and the bunkers tend to be firm/heavy.  I also bought my 60* and 56* wedges with a minimal understanding of bounce, opting for 14* thinking "more bounce = more forgiveness."  It only recently dawned on me that this might not be the case -- especially out of the bunkers in the area that tend to be firm/heavy.  So I started thinking about -- at a minimum -- having different bounces between my 60* and 56* wedges.  I'm thinking more bounce for the 60* (like drop from 14* to 12*) and then less bounce for the 56* like 8* so that I've got more options in varying situations.

I went to Vokey's website and answered their guidance questions, and read the descriptions of the different grinds, but didn't leave feeling like I could understand if any particular grind would actually help improve my odds of getting up and down from inside of 100 yards.  Has anyone seen a write up about the different Vokey grinds that make sense in laymen's terms?

[NM01]

Conditions of bunker and course conditions are going to play a role in grind and bounce. But so does your technique. Some people need/prefer less bounce in firm sand, others can hit it with a mid to high bounce wedge.

Did you do the wedge fitting on their website?

 

[matt_puttercup]

On 6/2/2024 at 9:05 AM, RickyBobby_PR said:

Conditions of bunker and course conditions are going to play a role in grind and bounce. But so does your technique. Some people need/prefer less bounce in firm sand, others can hit it with a mid to high bounce wedge.

Did you do the wedge fitting on their website?

 

I did do the wedge fitting, twice, and each time I got different recommendations.  I'm curious how much of a difference the grinds actually make, or if 90% of the forgiveness / performance off different lies & conditions is really just the bounce.

[cnosil]

2 hours ago, matt_puttercup said:

I did do the wedge fitting, twice, and each time I got different recommendations.  I'm curious how much of a difference the grinds actually make, or if 90% of the forgiveness / performance off different lies & conditions is really just the bounce.

If you are getting different recommendations you must have changed the options you selected.   I don't  typically open or close my wedges so standard grinds are typically what I pick.   As for bounce,   I typically do my SW with the most bounce  (10-12) and LW with the least (6-8).   Course conditions and technique will influence your selections.   If you have a lot of forward lean and/or lead with the hands, you are probably significantly reducing or eliminating all the bounce so it doesn't really matter.   if you play in softer sand you probably want more bounce.     

 

Maybe look at see if there is a titleist fitting day near you and go try the differing options to see what you like and what works. 

[matt_puttercup]

27 minutes ago, cnosil said:

If you are getting different recommendations you must have changed the options you selected.   I don't  typically open or close my wedges so standard grinds are typically what I pick.   As for bounce,   I typically do my SW with the most bounce  (10-12) and LW with the least (6-8).   Course conditions and technique will influence your selections.   If you have a lot of forward lean and/or lead with the hands, you are probably significantly reducing or eliminating all the bounce so it doesn't really matter.   if you play in softer sand you probably want more bounce.     

 

Maybe look at see if there is a titleist fitting day near you and go try the differing options to see what you like and what works. 

I sort of breezed through the recommender questions the first time and took my time the second time, which resulted in both the 56* and 60* recommendations being the D-grind.  And I love your recommendation about a fitting day, because that will be way more useful than anything else!  Where I'm at the sand tends to be wet / firm, so I'm already of a mind that I have no business with 14* with either of my higher lofted wedges.

Curious--why did you opt for more bounce with SW and less with LW?  I ask because I was thinking about going with the opposite -- i.e. LW is for fewer "emergency" situations like a flop, SW is for a broader variety of situations where more bounce might not be helpful.

[cnosil]

9 minutes ago, matt_puttercup said:

Curious--why did you opt for more bounce with SW and less with LW?  I ask because I was thinking about going with the opposite -- i.e. LW is for fewer "emergency" situations like a flop, SW is for a broader variety of situations where more bounce might not be helpful.

Even though the condition of the sand is fairly firm here there are courses with fluffy sand so higher bounce works best for sand shots.  In general I don't have a problem with the high bounce SW even in firmer fairway conditions.   

I have been trying to lean the Dan Grieve methods for my short game.  He has a video out on picking bounce and grinds;  might help you learn a little more:

 

[NM01]

2 hours ago, matt_puttercup said:

I did do the wedge fitting, twice, and each time I got different recommendations.  I'm curious how much of a difference the grinds actually make, or if 90% of the forgiveness / performance off different lies & conditions is really just the bounce.

 

17 minutes ago, matt_puttercup said:

I sort of breezed through the recommender questions the first time and took my time the second time, which resulted in both the 56* and 60* recommendations being the D-grind.  And I love your recommendation about a fitting day, because that will be way more useful than anything else!  Where I'm at the sand tends to be wet / firm, so I'm already of a mind that I have no business with 14* with either of my higher lofted wedges.

Curious--why did you opt for more bounce with SW and less with LW?  I ask because I was thinking about going with the opposite -- i.e. LW is for fewer "emergency" situations like a flop, SW is for a broader variety of situations where more bounce might not be helpful.

Well this explains the reason for different output.

For some the grind and bounce difference will make a huge difference with one being worse than the other. 
 

If you were honest in your replies to the questions then the recommendations are usually pretty accurate. Will a 14° be bad for wet/firm sand? Maybe but maybe not. Some of it will depend on your technique and how you setup the club in that situation. Playing the club more square it might not be a problem.

[matt_puttercup]

16 hours ago, cnosil said:

Even though the condition of the sand is fairly firm here there are courses with fluffy sand so higher bounce works best for sand shots.  In general I don't have a problem with the high bounce SW even in firmer fairway conditions.   

I have been trying to lean the Dan Grieve methods for my short game.  He has a video out on picking bounce and grinds;  might help you learn a little more:

 

I recently picked up Dan's book as well, and follow him on Instagram.  He makes it look too easy.

[Donn lost in San Diego]

Get on the phone with a wedge maker, I especially like Indi Golf in Carlsbad.  Or talk to Jim Kronus at his company The Iron Factory in Arizona.  Or Koehler of Edison.  It takes a person to person talk, IMOH, to explain bounce and relate it to 1.  the type of dirt/grass/sand where you play.

2.  your swing style, angle of attack, skill with short game.

In my signature you see I have 2 Mizuno GFF (grain flow forged) wedges.  I like Indi stuff when I went there, but the more I play the more I love my GFF Mizunos.  My hdcp/index doesn;t reflect much.  I have not had time til now, just retired, to actually work at the lovely disease. (Can't drive worth poop.)

[Shrek74]

As we know, fitting is always the answer. But we also know not everyone can do fittings, especially more specialty stuff like wedges. So I'll try and lay out my understanding of the bounce options. These are very basic without taking anything about your game or how you play shots into account.

Firmer conditions (fairways or sand) = less bounce.
Softer conditions (fairways or sand) = more bounce.
Steeper AoA and/or deeper/larger divots = more bounce.
Shallower AoA and/or small/no divots = less bounce.

Grinds are a completely different animal all-together and are far more dependent on your game and how you play. More heal/toe relief means you can manipulate the club more (open/close the face). Less means more square face shots. But again, all depends on how you use your wedges.

[steve2526]

I was actually curious about which grind the community thinks would be best for the bump and run with a 54* and consulted my fitter.  His opinion was that the 54* in the F grind would be best for this shot.  Curious what others think...  Supposedly and visually, the F grind has more lead edge relief  for ease of getting through grass on those square faced chips.

Usually use 58* for partial shot, open face shots, bunker and anything else inside 100 yds.  I seem to limit 54* to full shots and bump and run around the greens.  

 

 

UPDATE:  Grabbed a 54* vokey SM9 F grind and played first round with it Sunday. My fitter was right.  As a guy who mostly uses the 54* for full shots 110-115yds or square faced bump and runs around the green, it worked exactly as ordered.   2 for 2 getting up and down with tap ins and GIRs all day with full swings.  Just my 2 cents.... 

Edited June 11 by steve2526

[Shrek74]

19 minutes ago, steve2526 said:

I was actually curious about which grind the community thinks would be best for the bump and run with a 54* and consulted my fitter.  His opinion was that the 54* in the F grind would be best for this shot.  Curious what others think...  Supposedly and visually, the F grind has more lead edge relief  for ease of getting through grass on those square faced chips.

Usually use 58* for partial shot, open face shots, bunker and anything else inside 100 yds.  I seem to limit 54* to full shots and bump and run around the greens.  

In the Vokey's, you probably have 2 options - F & S. The F is exactly what the letter stands for - Full. Meaning the F-grind is more of a full swing shot. That's why it's usually seen in that 46-52 degree range. The S is for Steve Stricker, but I also call it the Square face shot. It can be a full swing or it can be anything "special" where you still keep the face square at impact. Bump and runs are a great example of that.

I used to play 50/F, 54/S, and 60/M in Vokeys. I use my set GW now, but still use the 54/S and 60/M because I don't manipulate the 54 much at all as it's a partial swing or bump and run club for me. Where the 60/M is more greenside bunker or shot-sided rough where I want to open the face a bit.

For the 54, I'd recommend looking at the S-grind as it'll give you more versatility than the F-grind will, but will give definitely give you that bump and run you want.

[RetiredBoomer]

On 6/2/2024 at 10:44 AM, matt_puttercup said:

Well, I guess I should say "dummy" and not "dummies," don't want to unfairly group anyone else with me.  

I live/play in the Puget Sound area surrounding Seattle, so the fairways tend to be soft and the bunkers tend to be firm/heavy.  I also bought my 60* and 56* wedges with a minimal understanding of bounce, opting for 14* thinking "more bounce = more forgiveness."  It only recently dawned on me that this might not be the case -- especially out of the bunkers in the area that tend to be firm/heavy.  So I started thinking about -- at a minimum -- having different bounces between my 60* and 56* wedges.  I'm thinking more bounce for the 60* (like drop from 14* to 12*) and then less bounce for the 56* like 8* so that I've got more options in varying situations.

I went to Vokey's website and answered their guidance questions, and read the descriptions of the different grinds, but didn't leave feeling like I could understand if any particular grind would actually help improve my odds of getting up and down from inside of 100 yards.  Has anyone seen a write up about the different Vokey grinds that make sense in laymen's terms?

I haven't, unfortunately.  I've read lots of copy on grinds, especially in the "Scratch" days when they were in business,, but it wasn't super clear to me.

I just order the lowest bounce option at every loft because that's what works for me--Vokey, Mizuno, Cleveland, or who-ever. 

[NM01]

39 minutes ago, steve2526 said:

I was actually curious about which grind the community thinks would be best for the bump and run with a 54* and consulted my fitter.  His opinion was that the 54* in the F grind would be best for this shot.  Curious what others think...  Supposedly and visually, the F grind has more lead edge relief  for ease of getting through grass on those square faced chips.

Usually use 58* for partial shot, open face shots, bunker and anything else inside 100 yds.  I seem to limit 54* to full shots and bump and run around the greens.  

The F grind is very popular and is versatile. S as well. I have played both in most my wedges and have been experimenting with the M and D grinds the last couple releases to see how they perform.

Both F and S are popular on tour in the “sw” range of lofts

[TJ Hall]

I used the online fitting for SM8 wedges and have been very happy with the options it provided.  I have been able to hit the shots I needed to hit.

But as mentioned, it is all based on what you input into it.  Have seen similar things with other fittings (did a TSr online fitting and would gotn2 different options changing one aspect of input).

[B-rad]

On 6/2/2024 at 10:44 AM, matt_puttercup said:

Well, I guess I should say "dummy" and not "dummies," don't want to unfairly group anyone else with me.  

I live/play in the Puget Sound area surrounding Seattle, so the fairways tend to be soft and the bunkers tend to be firm/heavy.  I also bought my 60* and 56* wedges with a minimal understanding of bounce, opting for 14* thinking "more bounce = more forgiveness."  It only recently dawned on me that this might not be the case -- especially out of the bunkers in the area that tend to be firm/heavy.  So I started thinking about -- at a minimum -- having different bounces between my 60* and 56* wedges.  I'm thinking more bounce for the 60* (like drop from 14* to 12*) and then less bounce for the 56* like 8* so that I've got more options in varying situations.

I went to Vokey's website and answered their guidance questions, and read the descriptions of the different grinds, but didn't leave feeling like I could understand if any particular grind would actually help improve my odds of getting up and down from inside of 100 yards.  Has anyone seen a write up about the different Vokey grinds that make sense in laymen's terms?

Go get a wedge fitting from someone who uses the new Vokey system.   It clearly gives recommendations and give options.  I love the way mine were fitted.   I got the F in the 52, D in the 56 and M in the 60.   Loving them.  

[Bob Jerabek]

52 minutes ago, Shrek74 said:

In the Vokey's, you probably have 2 options - F & S. The F is exactly what the letter stands for - Full. Meaning the F-grind is more of a full swing shot. That's why it's usually seen in that 46-52 degree range. The S is for Steve Stricker, but I also call it the Square face shot. It can be a full swing or it can be anything "special" where you still keep the face square at impact. Bump and runs are a great example of that.

I used to play 50/F, 54/S, and 60/M in Vokeys. I use my set GW now, but still use the 54/S and 60/M because I don't manipulate the 54 much at all as it's a partial swing or bump and run club for me. Where the 60/M is more greenside bunker or shot-sided rough where I want to open the face a bit.

For the 54, I'd recommend looking at the S-grind as it'll give you more versatility than the F-grind will, but will give definitely give you that bump and run you want.

This is a great explanation of what you can do with wedge grinds.  I use a 48 F grind, a 54 bent to 53 S grind , and a 58 M. Gives m plenty of versatility. 
One thing to consider is when you weaken a club 1* you lose 1* of bounce and if you strengthen 1* you add 1* of bounce. So be careful how you change your club specifics.

[RetiredBoomer]

Just now, Bob Jerabek said:

One thing to consider is when you weaken a club 1* you lose 1* of bounce and if you strengthen 1* you add 1* of bounce. So be careful how you change your club specifics.

I believe it's the opposite. Adding loft also adds bounce and vice versa.

If you strengthen a club, you're lifting the trailing edge up a little, reducing bounce.

[Bob Jerabek]

7 minutes ago, RetiredBoomer said:

I believe it's the opposite. Adding loft also adds bounce and vice versa.

If you strengthen a club, you're lifting the trailing edge up a little, reducing bounce.

 

7 minutes ago, RetiredBoomer said:

I believe it's the opposite. Adding loft also adds bounce and vice versa.

If you strengthen a club, you're lifting the trailing edge up a little, reducing bounce.

You are right I got it backwards, I corrected it in my post.  Remember this is bounce for DUMMIES. HAHA

[RetiredBoomer]

4 minutes ago, Bob Jerabek said:

 

You are right I got it backwards, I corrected it in my post.  Remember this is bounce for DUMMIES. HAHA

I wouldn't want anybody to research my posts if we were worried about little mistakes.

[tdroma98]

Hey @matt_puttercup, good question about the Vokey Grinds. Here is an explanation from Titleist explaining Grinds & Bounce.  
https://www.vokey.com/explained/wedge-grinds#

I had used the online Wedge Fitting when I purchased the SM8 wedges, last year.  Then got fitted by Titleist last month for the SM10 wedges and the fitting was a tad different from the online fit. 
For instance - SM8 54 degree came back with a "D" grind from online fitting.  
The in-person fitting for SM10 54 degree result - "S" Grind

The 58-degree wedge fitting was the same for Online & In-Person with the "M" Grind.  

The one grind that did surprise me with the Titleist Fitting, the 48-degree SM10 fitting was "F" Grind. I wasn't a fan of the "F Grind for the SW and would not have thought about trying the "F" for the Gap Wedge. 

The Titleist Fitting went very well.  I'm very happy with the selections I was fitted for, not to mention the Jet Black finish of the wedges! I'd recommend going through a Titleist Fitting if you can find one in your area.
Good Luck!

[tdroma98]

5 hours ago, Shrek74 said:

For the 54, I'd recommend looking at the S-grind as it'll give you more versatility than the F-grind will, but will give definitely give you that bump and run you want.

 

6 hours ago, steve2526 said:

I was actually curious about which grind the community thinks would be best for the bump and run with a 54* and consulted my fitter.  His opinion was that the 54* in the F grind would be best for this shot.

@steve2526 you posed a good question about the 54* and the "F" Grind.  @Shrek74 gave a great answer and I found my SM10 Vokey wedge grind setup is similar to his. 

I'm a fan of the "S" Grind, especially in Florida, where the turf can be soft most often, with all the rain we get and the ground retaining moisture.  I find the "S" Grind is pretty versatile around the greens & in the bunker, especially for softer sand.  I found my 58-degree M Grind does not have enough bounce in soft sand. 

I've found, for me, the 54* S grind is great around the greens for chipping anywhere from about 18yds and over.  
The 58* M grind, I like to use 20yds & in.  Downhill 20yd chip, I'll use the 58-degree.  

As for full shots with the 54* S, generally around the 100yd mark & in.  100yds to 117yds, the Gap wedge 49* "F" Grind works well.   58* from 85 yds & in, depending on the lie.  
I'm still getting used to the new SM10 wedges, but liking the performance so far.   Good Luck!

[Donn lost in San Diego]

Wedge confusion is made worse by 2 things:

1.  The word relief.  What?  Relief from what?  Relief actually means that the sole has been grinded down, but the word doesn't mean that in the real world.  Because relief means sharper difference between a uniform sole and one that has been shaped, and a change in the degree of bounce at different parts of the sole.  Let's replace the word Relief with the word Shape.  Thus speaketh Donn.

2.  Different letters that don't mean anything.  And of course, no two wedge makers want to use the same letter designation, do they?    Instead of bland letters, how bout names?  Old Tom, Walter, Gene, Bobby, Sam, Byron, and Ben.  Or, for the younger generation, maybe a standard: Tiger, Phil, Dustin, Rory, Rahm, Rose, and Spieth.   Wouldn't it help if we could compare similar grinds this way?

[NM01]

56 minutes ago, Donn lost in San Diego said:

The word relief.  What?  Relief from what?  Relief actually means that the sole has been grinded down, but the word doesn't mean that in the real world.  Because relief means sharper difference between a uniform sole and one that has been shaped, and a change in the degree of bounce at different parts of the sole.  Let's replace the word Relief with the word Shape.  Thus speaketh Donn.

 

Relief has numerous meanings, picking one of them to make some kind of point maybe to mask confusion of grinds is disingenuous. 

A relief pitcher in baseball bas nothing to do with what you claim the meaning is, as an example.

The relief is from contact with the ground. Theres heel relief and toe relief. 

56 minutes ago, Donn lost in San Diego said:

Different letters that don't mean anything.  And of course, no two wedge makers want to use the same letter designation, do they?

They signify whatever the manufacturer decides them to be to distinguish one from another. Theres no standard for anything in golf, so no big surprise companies that use letters don’t have a standard. Not to mention most have nowhere near the amount of grind options as vokey.

Cleveland used to do a dot system for low mid and high bounce. 
 

the best thing about todays world is all the information one needs is right at their fingertips. Anyone can go on a manufacturers website and learn about their grind options and what they do

[Donn lost in San Diego]

You are the very first time I have seen or heard "relief from contact with the ground".  I don't think that phrase is even on Vokey site.

 

Wouldn't it be neat tho if there was some  . . .  ah, ain't gonna happen.   

[GolferXY]

I've seen several on YouTube, but I've found that the only way to see if it works for me is to hit the various grinds.  As I live in the Seattle area too, I know that it's nearly impossible to find a place where you can get fit for wedges outside on grass where it matters.  The Home Course offers this I think.  Otherwise, it is private clubs or guess.

Edited June 6 by GolferXY

[NM01]

2 hours ago, Donn lost in San Diego said:

You are the very first time I have seen or heard "relief from contact with the ground".  I don't think that phrase is even on Vokey site.

 

Wouldn't it be neat tho if there was some  . . .  ah, ain't gonna happen.   

The phrase doesn’t need to be on the website. The relief is the to make certain shots easier or to help in forgiveness or to allow then club to get thru the ball better.

Plenty of resources to learnt about what heel and toe relief do rather than a scoffing at it for lack of understanding and its benefit. 
 

And vokey does use the word relief on the website.

 

WEDGEWORKS L GRIND

The L Grind is a popular choice with players who seek a low bounce option with heel, toe, and trailing edge relief. 

Also uses it for the T Grind

Edited June 6 by RickyBobby_PR

[NM01]

36 minutes ago, GolferXY said:

I've seen several on YouTube, but I've found that the only way to see if it works for me is to hit the various grinds.  As I live in the Seattle area too, I know that it's nearly impossible to find a place where you can get fit for wedges outside on grass where it matters.  The Home Course offers this I think.  Otherwise, it is private clubs or guess.

This is the one downside of fittings. It’s hard to find a good wedge fitting because you really need a grass area and a bunker to test out of. Demo days at courses with grass ranges and a practice bunker are really the one way.

I haven’t had any issues with the recommendations from vokey fitting tool.

 

[Donn lost in San Diego]

I wonder, among good players (shoot in 80s or better), is your sand wedge used almost exclusively for sand, or, do most good golfers use a mid 50s loft for both sand and for short approach shots?

 

[cnosil]

3 minutes ago, Donn lost in San Diego said:

I wonder, among good players (shoot in 80s or better), is your sand wedge used almost exclusively for sand, or, do most good golfers use a mid 50s loft for both sand and for short approach shots?

 

I use it all over the course.  Tee shots, approach shots,  around the green, and from the sand.  It’s just another wedge.