Off the Tee or 100 Yards In....

[chisag]

2 hours ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

Fair point on the wording.  My intent more simply was.  What is more important the short--game---considering putting as its own category---or tee game.  Ultimately we know they are all important.   And has been mentioned several times, It will likely be different for each person. 

 

... Yup, so many variables in the equation. If you can't get off the tee at all, as some are indicating landing in hazards, OB, etc then you are in dire difficulties immediately. But most higher index players I play with keep the ball reasonably in play off the tee. Maybe short, slices that can find some water or woods sometimes but not OB as much. Or even erratic, losing the ball either way but again not disastrous. Otoh I see high index players take 3 or 4 shots around the green with regularity, especially in a bunker and they are justifiably afraid to hit chips and even use their putter from deep rough. It just seems to me that hitting the ball in the water off the tee, dropping and hitting something near near the green is not as score/confidence killing as being near the green in 2 and then blading a chip over the green into a hazard, woods or just deep rough, or hitting one fat traveling a couple inches and being faced with the same shot you just screwed up. We have all seen someone go from bunker to bunker around the green, so the very shot you just hit so poorly must be hit again. Unless hitting OB off the tee, you don't have to hit that tee shot again.

... But in the end, as you and many have stated it will always be player dependent. I have played with high index or even mid index payers with a good tee game and terrible short as well as the opposite. Golf is always an individual adventure. 

 

[revkev]

Fair point on the wording.  My intent more simply was.  What is more important the short--game---considering putting as its own category---or tee game.  Ultimately we know they are all important.   And has been mentioned several times, It will likely be different for each person. 

Actually I thought your wording was key - the opportunity to improve part is what makes the discussion.

The long game is far more important - all the data proves that and debunks prevailing thoughts.

But once the notion of where does the opportunity for improvement lie for most golfers the discussion gets interesting.


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[Golfspy_CG2]

3 hours ago, revkev said:

 

Actually I thought your wording was key - the opportunity to improve part is what makes the discussion.

The long game is far more important - all the data proves that and debunks prevailing thoughts.

But once the notion of where does the opportunity for improvement lie for most golfers the discussion gets interesting.


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Marc Leishman sure threw that out the window yesterday    3/14 fairways hit!!   But came from 4 strokes behind to win.

Now of course he is not your average player.  His misses off the tee were so far offline--beyond the gallery ropes he was not in the deepest of rough, and when he was , he has the ability to hit a 7 iron 170 yards out of 2 inch thick rough and hit the green.   yeah, we don't have that shot...ha    Oh and 4.86 strokes gained or something like that putting will help as well

[revkev]

Marc Leishman sure threw that out the window yesterday    3/14 fairways hit!!   But came from 4 strokes behind to win.
Now of course he is not your average player.  His misses off the tee were so far offline--beyond the gallery ropes he was not in the deepest of rough, and when he was , he has the ability to hit a 7 iron 170 yards out of 2 inch thick rough and hit the green.   yeah, we don't have that shot...ha    Oh and 4.86 strokes gained or something like that putting will help as well

I think he has a pretty good long game and as you know exceptions don’t prove the rule - anything can happen in a given week or round.

The lion share of the money goes to the best ball strikers on tour and runs from the top putters.

And driving distance remains the biggest divider between handicap levels - ironically I’m an exception to my own rule - I was just off scratch averaging 240 off the tee when the average scratch guy is 255. That means I had to do lots of other things well to offset that yardage differential - of course my handicap has risen as I’ve gotten older and shorter - again that probably means I was maximizing my potential in other areas leaving no place to go but down (up.)


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[Golfspy_CG2]

2 hours ago, revkev said:

 

I think he has a pretty good long game and as you know exceptions don’t prove the rule - anything can happen in a given week or round.

The lion share of the money goes to the best ball strikers on tour and runs from the top putters.

And driving distance remains the biggest divider between handicap levels - ironically I’m an exception to my own rule - I was just off scratch averaging 240 off the tee when the average scratch guy is 255. That means I had to do lots of other things well to offset that yardage differential - of course my handicap has risen as I’ve gotten older and shorter - again that probably means I was maximizing my potential in other areas leaving no place to go but down (up.)


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Interesting nugget about driving distance being the biggest divider between handicap levels.  I guess I can get behind that as far as stats go.  And not to keep touting my thoughts on it, but it's my thread so I will     But if there was a way to track stats for the short game that was as equally easy to say a scratch player drives it 265 while a 15 handicapper drives it 220, the answers might support me.

When I play with legit scratch or plus players, I'm amazed at not only them getting up and down from off the green, but from where they do it.  Sure if I'm 10 yards short of the green and there's an accessible pin, I might get up and down I don't know 50-% of the time, maybe more I don't know.   But put me on the fringe of trees or in deep rough and having to go over a bunker to a short side pin, and I'm hoping to just get on and two putt.   But the scratch/plus guys are going to get up and down more than they don't.   It's just amazing to see that there is no shot from around the green that they don't have. 

 

[Kor.A.Door]

My experience the amateur golfer is that most of them have only a few problems from the tee box. Yet almost all of them have issues from 100 yards. I’ve seen 15 Hcp folks be just by the green in 2 and end up with a 6 or 7 because they chunk or blade chip shots, or just overall stink around and on the greens. That being said. 
I do believe that there are charts and numbers out there that show that most amateur golfers lose more strokes from the tee box than anywhere else. 

[Kor.A.Door]

On 1/24/2020 at 6:40 PM, Reesedw said:

Lets look at this Mathematically. 72 strokes is par. Yes, I know par can be just about anything between 66-72.. But most are 72..  2 putt every green there are Half your strokes.. Again, I know some people are better putters or hit it closer. So now we have 18 tee shots and 18 Approach" shots..  How many of us could Live with, not like but live with 20 off the tee, 1 penalty each side, or punch out but an extra stroke... that doesn't seem terrible, not great but mostly livable.. .. But lets be realistic MOST of us would be farting Rainbows and glitter if we could get the rest of our round done with 18 strokes, Hell 20... I do realize of those 20 strokes not off the tee or putting, some are from further then 100 yds.. I think most of us would agree we give up more strokes in the approach shot category then anywhere else..  Just my thoughts, I would love to be confidant that I could get around in 18 approach shot per round..

This is good and realistic for some of us. I regularly hit 10-11 out of 14 fairways, and he 3 or 4 that I do miss most of the time are not bad. On he flip side to this of those 10 fairways, I only hit 2 greens. This isn’t with 5 or 6 iron. I usually have 8 iron or less into the green, and rarely hit a green. My stats are 11-14 fairways  3 greens. I know what part of the game I struggle at. The assessment of the drive vs approach are pretty spot on for me for sure. A little FYI, my miss is almost always short. Even when I add a club or 2 I come up short. It’s mental at this point, but my focus is taking extra and trying to hit it over the green, I haven’t done very well with it, but it is a work in progress. 

[revkev]

On ‎1‎/‎27‎/‎2020 at 2:48 PM, Golfspy_CG2 said:

Interesting nugget about driving distance being the biggest divider between handicap levels.  I guess I can get behind that as far as stats go.  And not to keep touting my thoughts on it, but it's my thread so I will     But if there was a way to track stats for the short game that was as equally easy to say a scratch player drives it 265 while a 15 handicapper drives it 220, the answers might support me.

When I play with legit scratch or plus players, I'm amazed at not only them getting up and down from off the green, but from where they do it.  Sure if I'm 10 yards short of the green and there's an accessible pin, I might get up and down I don't know 50-% of the time, maybe more I don't know.   But put me on the fringe of trees or in deep rough and having to go over a bunker to a short side pin, and I'm hoping to just get on and two putt.   But the scratch/plus guys are going to get up and down more than they don't.   It's just amazing to see that there is no shot from around the green that they don't have. 

 

Sorry that I dropped out of the discussion - Penny's hospitalization threw me a curve.  Of course a scratch player is better than a high handicapper at all facets of the game - interestingly a touring pro is better than a scratch golfer at all facets of the game except penalties - the pro takes more penalties no doubt because he plays tougher courses (that's documented) and also because he will take more risks.  

My point is that the biggest difference is strokes gained driving - that's true of every category.  If we are going to use the pros as an example its significant that Webb Simpson and his team determined 5 years ago that he needed to hit it farther.  He went from low mid pack in driving to where he was 40th this past week - upper 1/3 of the field - that along with 3rd in fairways hit and 4th in GIRs was the typical prescription for a PGA tour win - it's the normal.

 

Gaining distance is huge - it leads to lower scores - the problem is it takes work to gain distance - far more work than it takes to improve from 100 in.  So if the standard is simply where is the average player most likely to gain the most strokes I'm comfortable in saying its there.  But distance remains king