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Converting Hinge and Hold to a Full Swing and Review of Dante's 4MM

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I completely agree with this. So far, when I execute the moves, the ball is FLYING off of my clubs. I really enjoy this swing. Little by little, I am starting to gain confidence while I am over the ball. I will post how things go tomorrow because, weather-permitting, I plan on playing at least 9. I am not expecting my lowest round of my life, but I do want to see at least one good shot show up on the course.

 

I actually tried the MM a while ago as well as the stack and tilt. When I first started it was wonderful, but bad habits come in quickly. I don't use either anymore and am of the opinion that nothing replaces a good instructor who can actually see your swing.

 

As Matt always says, "feel is not real"

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Golf is not one fit all you have to know your swing sequence to match it with advice. The number one thing that hurts a lot of golfers is that they don't know what advice to take and what advice to leave on the table based on their swing.

 

One-plane swingers, it is all rotation to get back to impact no lateral hip slide.

Hybrid swingers, it is a slight lateral hip slide and then rotation to get into impact properly.

Two-planners, it is pretty much all lateral hip slide to get back into impact.

 

If you are a two-plane swinger at the top and use all rotation on the down swing it will turn very ugly, you can not mix and match a backswing sequence wit ha different down swing sequence and be successful. All swing types have some sort of lag built into them for the proper downswing sequence.

 

What you think you are doing is more then likely not what you are really doing, video and instructors can help you through which type of swing and sequence you fall into.

 

David Toms = Two-plane

Tiger Woods = Hybrid

Jonathan Byrd = One-plane

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This is a quick update. The rain in my area has prevented me from golfing at all so I have not had time to practice that much. The only swings I have gotten in so far are hitting my BirdieBall in my backyard or hitting beat-up balls into the woods when their is a break in the weather. The swing is still choppy because I am thinking A LOT during the swing, trying to get the 4 magic moves right. I have the backswing pretty much down, but it is the downswing that I keep messing up on. I mentioned earlier how I have always been guilty of turning my hips. When I make it just a lateral movement, I forget to keep the broken wrists. When I keep the broken wrists, I end up turning my hips. I plan on going to the range tomorrow so that will be good. Hopefully I can get this swing down, because I love the results when I get lucky and make the correct 4 moves.

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There is a lot of good points in this book, I have abandoned the backwards wrist brake for the most part, which makes me an advocate of the Three Magic Moves?, I guess:). I do not focus on the backswing at all. It makes no real difference how you get there, just so long as you get to the proper position at the top. My wrists are in the proper position at the top, ie "backwards wrist break" but I find starting with this move is not best for me. Also, I try to limit the wrist movement at all.

 

However, when you take out the first move, it is not significantly different than many of the other methods out there. I still maintain that this is very different than the Hinge and Hold and by your embracing it you are venturing far from the Hinge and Hold which was not the question that you first proposed.

 

You did not ask for a complete swing rebuild, you asked for something that would expand on the Hinge and Hold.

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Thanks Richard, that is a great complement I try to base what I am writing especially when it comes to swing advise on what someone currently has to offer so to speak. If I were in the golf industry which I am not, I just have too much time on my hands i would not be a "method" type of teacher.

 

As for "methods" like "hinge and hold" or S&T, I try to steer people away from them as it has bad distance and control issues in longer clubs. If they want to do that then I'll roll with it but I will make a comment here and there saying it might not be correct for them.

 

Out of all the "methods" that I have looked at and tried messing around a little rotaryswing.com and there RST model (one I did a big review on) seemed to be hte most logical in terms of bio-mechanics. Am I trying to just implement one or two things in the swing as I am pretty happy with the rest of my swing.

 

Small tweaks are always better and easier to make then tearing down the entire swing and rebuilding it from the ground up. This is why I can't believe Tiger Woods has now done that twice in his professional career. No one else in History as successful as him or famous in golf has done that, they all just tried to keep their swings and make minor adjustments here and there.

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Thanks for the advice guys. Here's my thing. I feel like I should be scoring a lot lower than I should be (most of you probably think so too). I want to change my swing because I am tired of shooting in the high 90s, and here's why. Usually when I am playing golf, I will show flashes of brilliance. These flashes of brilliance include good birdies and having an eagle opportunity. This is when my scores look like it will end in the mid to low 80s (note: I have never shot in the 80s EVER). But after that hole, without even thinking about it, my swing fails me. This swing fails me when I am full of confidence, and only thinking about the picture of my ball landing on the green. When my swing fails me, I do one of four things. I either severely push my shot out of bounds, I slice it out of bounds, I hit it straight when I have been compensating for a push, which lands me out of bounds or in the deep rough (my home course is very narrow on holes and the 2nd cut of rough is not very wide. I would say 10 yards before it turns into grass that comes up to my thigh), or I'll hit it fat.. Its that consistency in my golf swing that I am searching for, and I am stumped. Because once of those four things happen, it appears at least once a hole for the rest of the round. Yes, most of my trouble is off the tee, but I am working on that. I have that new driver coming in with a shaft that should help me out, but you never know how much that will help. But even when I club down to a hybrid off the tee, I will still get into trouble either on the tee shot or the second shot. MY short game has been great. Honestly, anything under sixty yards I have been great with (as long as I am not in that deep rough that usually takes a full swing to move 10 yards). My putting has been solid too. I have been one-putting so much now that I almost expect it . This is why I have been trying to rebuild the swing now. I need consistency. I have seen myself play as a golfer that is 10 strokes better than my score shows at the end of a round. And thats what really frustrates me and thats why this thread has turned into a rebuild of my swing. I am scoring 3s and 4s and then 3 holes later I am shooting 6s,7s, and the occasional 8. I NEED CHANGE! Sorry about my venting guys :excl:

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Thanks for the advice guys. Here's my thing. I feel like I should be scoring a lot lower than I should be (most of you probably think so too). I want to change my swing because I am tired of shooting in the high 90s, and here's why. Usually when I am playing golf, I will show flashes of brilliance. These flashes of brilliance include good birdies and having an eagle opportunity. This is when my scores look like it will end in the mid to low 80s (note: I have never shot in the 80s EVER). But after that hole, without even thinking about it, my swing fails me. This swing fails me when I am full of confidence, and only thinking about the picture of my ball landing on the green. When my swing fails me, I do one of four things. I either severely push my shot out of bounds, I slice it out of bounds, I hit it straight when I have been compensating for a push, which lands me out of bounds or in the deep rough (my home course is very narrow on holes and the 2nd cut of rough is not very wide. I would say 10 yards before it turns into grass that comes up to my thigh), or I'll hit it fat.. Its that consistency in my golf swing that I am searching for, and I am stumped. Because once of those four things happen, it appears at least once a hole for the rest of the round. Yes, most of my trouble is off the tee, but I am working on that. I have that new driver coming in with a shaft that should help me out, but you never know how much that will help. But even when I club down to a hybrid off the tee, I will still get into trouble either on the tee shot or the second shot. MY short game has been great. Honestly, anything under sixty yards I have been great with (as long as I am not in that deep rough that usually takes a full swing to move 10 yards). My putting has been solid too. I have been one-putting so much now that I almost expect it . This is why I have been trying to rebuild the swing now. I need consistency. I have seen myself play as a golfer that is 10 strokes better than my score shows at the end of a round. And thats what really frustrates me and thats why this thread has turned into a rebuild of my swing. I am scoring 3s and 4s and then 3 holes later I am shooting 6s,7s, and the occasional 8. I NEED CHANGE! Sorry about my venting guys :excl:

 

I went through the exact same thing. My scores on a bad day are now in the low 90s and mid 80s on a good day. By far the best way to fix it is to get a good instructor. I've tried so many of these quick fixes and in the end they just screw up your mechanics. What I look for now in training aids/books are things that I already do naturally in my swing rather than try to rebuild. But by far I've gotten the most out of a professional seeing my flaws and telling me how to fix them.

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I just deleted 8 paragraphs of a long winded suggestion full of anecdotal stories about a friend in a similar situation, but here are the cliffsnotes on it. If you need more consistancy in your game, you will not get it by changing swings. Obviously, if you have legitimate birdie and eagle opportunities you have a decent enough swing to break 90. The only way to get consistancy is to have a consistant preshot routine and tempo. Preshot should engrain good tempo.

 

I would bet that you have a much faster tempo with the driver and irons than you do with the wedge. Of course you are going to have a faster club head with the driver, but the swing tempo that you use for you 60 yard wedge shot that you say is good, would be better to use with the driver than what ever you are using now. By rushing your tempo you are not in the proper position to hit the ball the direction it needs to go.

 

I have recently been accused of being deceptively long. Because I slowed my tempo down to the point that I try to hit the driver and wedge with the same tempo, I am making center of the club contact. This allows time for the club head to get into the proper position before it strikes the ball. Initially, I gave up a lot of distance, I thought, but in reality it did not give up much and the more I became accustom to it the farther the ball goes.

 

Think of Ernie Els and Fred Couples not Bubba Watson. Fred Couples says swing slow and hit hard.

 

(I have nothing agains Bubba Watson, but I do not think anyone not a scratch golfer should try to copy him.)

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I have refrained from commenting on this because I know when I was younger(and even now), I hated lectures...So FLV, look at this as a story..A true cautionary tale..lol...The "pain" RR speaks of is not the type of pain that someone your age & in good health such as yourself should feel now or in the near future...If you do even feel "discomfort"("uncomfortable" in your words) @ your age, that shouldn't be a red flag, it should be a major frickin explosion...It is something that will gradually, over time wear away the cartilage in both your knee(meniscus) & hip joint....

 

And the unfortunate thing is that the more effective that you become at executing the "slide & snap" the more pressure/potential long-term damage you are doing, no ifs, ands or buts..Ironically, it's an inverse relationship...The better you execute the move & the faster your hip slide & knee "post-up" become, the more damage you're doing...There is a difference between a weight transfer & subsequent hip slide to the left, that is essential for a quality swing & the move that I am speaking of & at the extreme, it is the move that Tiger so effectively used under Butch Harmon...

 

The lateral hip slide & straightening/snapping of the left leg was a move(s) that I used for about 15 years(mid 30s till about 2 yrs ago)...Let me say up front that it works & if you properly execute the "slide & snap," you will get the elusive "holy grail" distance that most amateurs fantasize about & lie about getting..lol...And I'm talking about a major hip move, not a nudge and a noticable snapping of the knee..People actually commented on mine because it was so prominant..I could vary the force/speed of the slide/knee snap to get that extra "oomph" when needed...Since abandoning this move, I have lost the ability to "reach back," as I have stated, however this is life...I'm ok with my current swing...

 

The ave. tour pro slides/turns their hips @ 2.5mph...Tiger and the bombers are just over three...The ave. 90-95mph amateur is @ 1mph...This is where the power/distance comes from...Your biggest hitters have wicked fast hips..

 

Anyway, my hip movement was timed @ 2.7mph(sp:116-118mph) @ the university..pretty good..but the problem was that when I straightened/snapped my left knee, it was like hitting a wall @ 95-100mph, w/only a seat belt on..There's still internal trauma, from sudden stop & sudden, violent internal movement(sliding,shearing, twisting,etc) of soft tisue(cartilage)....Prior to implementing the "slide & snap" as we called it, I had had 8 knee surgeries(3 L/5 R), all football related, and since the age of 45, I have had 3 more, all on my left knee, and two of them were related to lack/loss of cartilage, which while not caused by my swing, was greatly worsened by it....

 

I'm 52yo...My teacher had tried to change me about 10-12yrs ago, however simply, the results were addictive...While we didn't measure our drives like we do now, when I came through & snapped that leg, my ball was out with anyone's...Anyone's...And I was playing to a +2 & life was great....I played in a Champions Pro Am with a pro who was a Champion's major winner, who I spoke of in another thread, & while he was 55 at the time, he was ranked 4th in driving dist. and the 8 holes that we pulled drivers out & let em fly, he was 1 for 8 in puttin it past me...My point is, this move works...But there's a price to pay...

 

It's similar to decisions that I made in football at the age of twenty that I was told would effect me in my forties or beyond...Hell, that seemed like eternity & I was "invincible"....I didnt listen then & I didnt listen to my teacher later regarding the hip slide & leg snap(notice a pattern here?...lol)....

 

I didn't want to hear it..25-40 more yards on top of 275-280...Seriously, save the lecture for someone else...I actually had the "balls"(lack of brains & class was more accurate) to tell my teacher that when he could put a ball where mine were landing, he could tell me what was the best swing for me..Fortunately, he showed more class than I did or deserved and didn't tell me to get lost & I made amends for my ignorance, arrogance & rudeness...

 

But my point is, we have a way of rationalizing & saying "not me," the potential negative outcome will not happen to me..."I'm different"...If your knee is constructed the same as mine, RRs, JM's or Tiger's, it's not a matter of if, it's when...And that cartilage loss is irreversible...It's gone...

 

The thing is that you don't even have to "perfect" this move, say get to 2.5mph hip speed to do damage...Less than 2% of anyone who swings a club gets to that speed...I was told by an engineer that if your swing speed is 112 or greater, your hips are in that range...So guys like JM are there...You may/may not be...Doesn't matter....You can damage your knee/hip just as quickly & severely as JM or someone at that end of the scale...

 

Bottom line, you're young as is your swing...Chances are nothing's "ingrained" that can't be changed fairly quickly with minimal effect on your game...And chances are you haven't maximized this move, so it can easily be replaced...

 

The books are great as is this forum, however FLV, find a teacher who can help you put together a swing that will last a lifetime, with room for adjustments along the way....

 

Remember, this was a story, not a lecture...The Best....

 

Richard

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever......

 

Thank you for both your story and your concern. I have taken everything you said and will make sure not to screw up my body. I'm talking to the PGA Pro where I work/ my home course on Saturday to start talking about getting lessons. Thank-you for everything!

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BTW, Dante's book's a classic...You get Dante's lateral hip slide down & fire from the top & youl'll get all of the speed that you need...Have a good summer....

 

Fairqays & Greens 4ever....

 

After considerable thought and experimentation I have found that the main problems with Dante's Four Magic Moves is being too aggressive with them. The only goal with the early backwards wrist break is that it is in the proper position at the top of the swing. Getting the wrist completely set before starting up is very hard on the left elbow, but if you start the move as you are turning and lifting your hands, ensuring that you are in the correct position at the top, there is no where near the stress on the elbow. Bubba is on the cover of one of the golf magazines this month and if you look, he is set exactly how Dante discribes.

 

The next issue is the back pain and knee pain based on the lateral hip movement and straightening of the left leg. The thing is if you slow down and shift the hips but not too aggressively, ie, a slower tempo, these are still powerful moves. It is the clubhead speed that matters not hip speed. I find that while it feels like I am slowly making these moves, my hands and clubhead are actually speeding up.

 

It seems that the slower I go the faster the clubhead goes. Recently, one of my playing partners made the statement that I am a deceptively long hitter, because I appear to be moving very slow, yet am always the longest off the box now. Even in the scramble yesterday, I was up there with the long knockers when I used to just be the straight hitter.

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UPDATE: Alright guys. First off, I want to thank everyone for the advice that was given to me throughout this thread so far. I had a GREAT round yesterday. Swing-wise, it me three holes of double-bogeys to figure out what I wanted to do (YUCK!) but once I got to the fourth holes, it was just pars and bogeys from there. I didn't get to play 18 because it was starting to get dark, but I am very confident going into my next round. Throughout the round, I used three kinds of swings. It might sound like something I shouldnt do, but everything I did seemed natural. For my Driver and hybrids, I used my old swing, which worked. For the irons, I used Dante's and for the wedges I used my old swing. For everything inside 60 yards, I used hinge-and-hold. What allowed me to use all three swings while staying consistent was my grip. I used my old grip and it naturally created my old swing (and the hinge-and-hold), and when I used Dante's grip it NATURALLY (that surprised me on the course) made Dante's swing. What helped me the most was the pre-shot routine. It kept me with a nice tempo and I was hitting the ball longer. MY 9-iron was my 150 club, and I hit my 3 Hybrid 240 consistently all day. Thanks for everything guys! Ill let you know how my round goes on monday or tuesday, and will play 18 so I have a score to show for it

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That's great!!!...The name of the game is to have fun & it sounds like you had a good time day...May you enjoy many more!....

 

The best....

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever......

 

I really was having a lot of fun out there. Unfortunately my home course is having tournaments every day this week. Plus, my girlfriend of two years has her birthday on Friday so Im taking her to the city. Looks like I will be going out Wednesday for nine at a different course. I love the change of scenery, and I actually learned a lot of golf on that course, but it is a tough one. Im interested to see how much carry over I get.

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I'm in the 80s now because of this! Thank you for all of the members who contributed to this! I'm loving my game right now. I played 9 today and shot 44 and that was with 2 double bogeys and a triple. If I can start making my mistakes less severe and playing the safer side of the percentages more, then I am looking at even lower scores. Thanks everyone!

 

PS: My handicap dropped to a 16 :D and it keeps dropping! *KNOCK ON WOOD*

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