Cast v. Forged (irons)

[Justin66]

 

Here's an interesting email from a guy named Martin, with a response from Frank Thomas (former USGA technical director). It's from his e-newsletter that I subscribe to. Enjoy...

 

Hi Frank,

I follow your comments every week.

my question:

are there any advantages of forged irons against cast irons,

and is Lee Westwood the first world # 1 to use cast irons?

 

Mit freundlichen Grüßen

With best regards

 

--Martin

 

Martin,

Thank you (Danke schön) for being a Frankly Friend and I am pleased you are enjoying the weekly articles and putting tips.

 

Having just returned from the UK, where we launched our on-line Certified Putting Instructor course in partnership with the British PGA for PGA for its members, and a short trip to Germany to discuss the program, we feel that we need to become trilingual --i.e. German, American and English.

 

Regarding ‘Cast' vs. ‘Forged' clubs; let me explain that many golfers have become confused between the two by assuming that a cast club is a cavity back iron – designed to help the average golfer – and a forged club is a blade. Some of the best “blades” – non cavity back irons-- are forged but his does not mean that a “blade” can not be made by the casting process. Also, the forging process has become fairly advanced so some cavity back clubs can be forged.

 

The manufacturing process does not dictate what the design should be even though most of the forgiving – cavity back clubs – are castings, which is less expensive than the forgings in most cases. If two clubs were made with the identical design but one was forged and the other was made by the investment casting process their performance would be identical. The material or the process used in irons will make little difference to the performance.

 

It is true that most of the best golfers in the world use blades. However, the difference in performance between a blade and a cavity back is only realized when we miss the sweet spot on impact. Today some of the best players in the world are using cast clubs but the design and performance of these are more like blades than the very forgiving irons that most of us may prefer – until we get out tour card.

 

Martin, I hope this has helped. Lee Westwood is # 1, a very good player and does use Ping cast clubs. I suspect he may be the first World #1 to use cast clubs.

 

 

Frank

 

 

I emphasized that part myself, not Mr. Thomas.

[Richie3Jack]

The manufacturing process does not dictate what the design should be even though most of the forgiving – cavity back clubs – are castings, which is less expensive than the forgings in most cases. If two clubs were made with the identical design but one was forged and the other was made by the investment casting process their performance would be identical. The material or the process used in irons will make little difference to the performance.

 

I think it's worded in a way that is correct, but a bit misleading.

 

While the tests have had *some* flaws to them, there have been tests that show that a blade struck equally as solid as a cavity back will have a tighter dispersion as will it when it's mis-hit. The CB's will have a better chance of getting a better result when it's mis-hit than a blade, but the *dispersion* is usually much tighter with blades whether it is struck well or struck poorly.

 

The problem is that most cast irons are indeed cavity backs and most forged irons are blades. I think Mr. Thomas makes a good point that they don't always go hand-in-hand, but most of the time....blades = forged....cb's = cast.

 

Plus, this doesn't consider the effects that feedback has on a golfer's awareness to their swing. But even the problem with that is that the forging process alone doesn't equate to softer and better feel, the type of steel does.

 

So there's a lot of 'ifs' and 'buts' here.

 

Generally I like forged clubs becasue the steel is softer and I think blades perform better for me and because of the feel I can use the feedback to subconsiously keep my swing in tact.

 

 

 

 

 

 

3JACK

[RookieBlue7]

Performance wise, that's right two identical clubs forged and cast would perform the same. The difference is in the feel of the clubs at impact.

[Justin66]

Performance wise, that's right two identical clubs forged and cast would perform the same. The difference is in the feel of the clubs at impact.

 

 

Maltby's done a blind test (the same model iron, just one forged and the other cast), and no one tested could tell the difference. However, there are people that have a highly developed sense of feel- even some highly skilled amateurs have it- that allows them to feel a difference. There's only a 10 point difference between the different carbon steels on the Rockwell Hardness Scale (they range from B60-B70). For reference, 304 stainless rates at B75, 431 stainless rates at C18-C25 (taken from "Total Clubfitting in the 21st Century", p. 29). In reality, not a huge difference. Personally, I'd consider the golfers with feel that in tune A) pretty astounding and the exception to the rule.

 

As for the dispertion, shots struck "on the screws" will perform the same, assuming that all specs are the same (which isn't always the case- forged irons usually have weaker lofts than cast), with the exception of one iron being forged and the other being cast. There's no magic in a forged blade or the material it's made of- everything's controlled by physics. Shots struck AWAY from the sweet spot will have noticeable differences, though...

[caddyjoe77]

it wouldnt be a golf forum without this age old debate.

 

Sound is feel...yes? at least thats the way i understand it. I know when i shank one off the hosel or rattle one off the toe, it does not have that buttery soft feeling of a pure hit. More vibration being louder. Also, you can make a cast club feel better by inserting wood dowels in the shaft or else something similar to a pro soft insert. All they do is dampen vibration thereby making everything "feel" more solid.

 

ive seen great arguments for both sides over the years, and this is my conclusion. JMHO

[RookieBlue7]

I dowel every iron set I build, for myself or others. My Mizzy MP 37's are doweled and the Adams A-Tour Red Hosels are doweled. It improves the feel so much that to not do it seems asinine to me. Plus, the sensicore/prosoft are so much more to accomplish the same thing. And I can feel the difference between cast and forged. Put a blindfold on me and I'll likely shank either, but I'd know which one felt different from the two shanks. I can also feel it without a blindfold.

[Justin66]

I dowel every iron set I build, for myself or others. My Mizzy MP 37's are doweled and the Adams A-Tour Red Hosels are doweled. It improves the feel so much that to not do it seems asinine to me. Plus, the sensicore/prosoft are so much more to accomplish the same thing. And I can feel the difference between cast and forged. Put a blindfold on me and I'll likely shank either, but I'd know which one felt different from the two shanks. I can also feel it without a blindfold.

 

 

My current irons have "Sensicore" inserts- all it is is a straw with weather-stripping spiraled around it (the "true versions are black straws... mine are multi-colored! ). Cost me $4 total compared to $27 for a package of 8. One thing a guy told me not too long ago was, with either the "homemade" or "true" Sensicores, the stripping can hold moisture, which can lead to premature rusting of the insides of the shaft. Obviously, the area you live/golf in can have a major influence, but I definitely found it interesting.

 

I'm working on building a new set... this time, I think I'm doing the dowelling.

[RookieBlue7]

I would. Two tips with doweling irons. 1. Make sure you drill a hole through the length of it so air can escape both directions. Nothing like putting a head on and having air pressure back it off. 2. Don't go all the way to the tip of the shaft. You want the dowel half in and half out the top of the hosel of the club.

 

Follow those two tips, and you're golden. You'll never build another set without dowels after you try it.

[caddyjoe77]

My current irons have "Sensicore" inserts- all it is is a straw with weather-stripping spiraled around it (the "true versions are black straws... mine are multi-colored! ). Cost me $4 total compared to $27 for a package of 8. One thing a guy told me not too long ago was, with either the "homemade" or "true" Sensicores, the stripping can hold moisture, which can lead to premature rusting of the insides of the shaft. Obviously, the area you live/golf in can have a major influence, but I definitely found it interesting.

 

I'm working on building a new set... this time, I think I'm doing the dowelling.

 

You will enjoy the dowels for sure, i have done several sets and RB is spot on about the holes. The other thing is have fun drilling your first few dowels out.

 

I believe it does make a difference. It sounds a tad more solid, kind of like that "sound" when you flush one? That nice solid THUMP.

 

Another option is ProSoft Inserts, they are quite cheap and supposedly will not rust the inside of your shaft out. With those you get more of a muted sound.

 

These opinions are based on my ears.

[Justin66]

I would. Two tips with doweling irons. 1. Make sure you drill a hole through the length of it so air can escape both directions. Nothing like putting a head on and having air pressure back it off. 2. Don't go all the way to the tip of the shaft. You want the dowel half in and half out the top of the hosel of the club.

 

Follow those two tips, and you're golden. You'll never build another set without dowels after you try it.

 

 

You will enjoy the dowels for sure, i have done several sets and RB is spot on about the holes. The other thing is have fun drilling your first few dowels out.

 

I believe it does make a difference. It sounds a tad more solid, kind of like that "sound" when you flush one? That nice solid THUMP.

 

Another option is ProSoft Inserts, they are quite cheap and supposedly will not rust the inside of your shaft out. With those you get more of a muted sound.

 

These opinions are based on my ears.

 

 

Very solid- thanks, guys! I've seen those ProSofts, but had a "meh" attitude about it. Kind of similar to how I felt about colored ferrules before RB7 and Satern pointed me towards Cell-Parts (which, by the way, I'm still grateful for).

[SunsetBeachCustomPutters]

8620 steel CAN be forged and it CAN be cast. (The below is assuming same swingweight, shaft, and grip.

 

If you take two exact clubheads one cast from 8620 and one forged from 8620, NO HUMAN BEING WILL BE ABLE TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE.

 

If you take two exact clubheads one cast from 304 or 431 and one forged from 1020 maybe 10% will be able to tell the difference.

 

If you take two clubs of different clubhead designs one cast and one forged maybe 30% will be able to tell the difference. I have seen this done numerous times by a teaching professional. I have seen results from 10% to 40% getting it right every time. It is also not the better golfers do better at telling the difference. It also different depending upon the heads chosen. Some head designs are inherently going to feel softer.

 

The major club designers that work for the big boys agree on this, metallurgists agree on this, physicists agree on this. Saying they are wrong well I think you know what it makes you look like.

 

-------

 

1. The difference is people believe forging is softer, because it has be told to them for years and years.

2. The other difference is most forgings are 1020 or 1025, and most castings are 17-4 or 431. So the forging is always going to feel softer because it is made of softer metal. The same reason if you compared a set of 845's and Hogan Edge's with the same amount of rounds on them the Hogans would have suffered and be beaten up much more. Also the reason you should check your loft and lies on forged clubs once a year.

[roho]

doweling? I've been tinkering and building clubs for years and never heard of doweling before. I have used ProSofts since they came out after a bad case of tendentious.

 

I'm curious to learn more about doweling. I'm all for anything that will reduce vibrations. Is there a web site that has more detail about them and installation?

 

Where would one buy the correct size dowell? What happens when you try to remove a shaft? All I can envision is a charcoal fire

 

As far as cast vs forged, this argument will never be resolved. I've played Titleist 704 CB's that are forged with a harder metal than most forged. They would not be considered soft by any means. I've also read that no one can feel the ball contact the club since it's only in contact for a millionth part of a second(don't know the exact number off hand). What most judge a hit is by the sound.

[Justin66]

 

As far as cast vs forged, this argument will never be resolved. I've played Titleist 704 CB's that are forged with a harder metal than most forged. They would not be considered soft by any means. I've also read that no one can feel the ball contact the club since it's only in contact for a millionth part of a second(don't know the exact number off hand). What most judge a hit is by the sound.

 

You just reminded me of something: the ball's role in all of this. The hardness of the ball does account for sound... the softer the ball sounds, the softer it feels. I've stacked a TP Black against Titleist NXT (not on purpose) and noticed, when chipping and pitching in my backyard, the NXT feels (sounds) softer. Even though it isn't the case- the TP Black has a urethane cover, the NXT a Surlyn cover- but whatever Titleist does with their chemical composition makes for a softer sound to my ears. It's intriguing to me.

 

I think you're also right about the Cast v. Forged never-ending debate. Forged clubs have been around since the beginning of golf. They have a loyal following. Really it all boils down to what the individual wants.

[RookieBlue7]

doweling? I've been tinkering and building clubs for years and never heard of doweling before. I have used ProSofts since they came out after a bad case of tendentious.

 

I'm curious to learn more about doweling. I'm all for anything that will reduce vibrations. Is there a web site that has more detail about them and installation?

 

Where would one buy the correct size dowell? What happens when you try to remove a shaft? All I can envision is a charcoal fire

 

 

You can buy the dowels at Home Depot, Lowes, hobby stores, etc. I, personally, prefer hardwood dowels. You want 5/16" for .355 tip irons, and 3/8" for .370 tip iron shafts (you'll have to turn them down slightly. Cut it to 1.5 inches. Then drill a 1/16" or smaller hole through the center (easiest with a drill press and a drill press vice, but can be done by hand, as I have before in a pinch). Once you have the hole through it, mix up some epoxy and coat the outside of the dowel (not the ends) with epoxy. Take a ram rod (I use a driveway marker) and press it down into the shaft from the butt. It'll stop about 1/2" from the end. You want this, you don't want the dowel all the way to the tip. This will ensure that half of the dowel inside the shaft is inside the hosel and half of it is above the hosel inside the shaft as well as you still being able to add tip weights if necessary to get SW right. Let the dowel dry in place before assembling the head. You want to stand it up as well, so that the epoxy doesn't clog your hole you drilled that lets air escape through the butt end of the shaft (remember, you want the hole open so it can let air through so your iron head doesn't push off during assembly). Once it's dry, assemble the irons as usual.