Putter shafts - Do they matter?

[Subdiver1]

5 hours ago, Manavs said:

The weight of the clubhead and the cg of the club head moving in an arc will twist the shaft against the grip bends the shaft in all 3 planes of motion (6DoF).  There is some flexing as I posted in my previous post in toe droop and face deflection, but those are not zero, and it's also not significant.  The shaft twist is the significant variable from the research.

 

The torsional strength is what regulates the shaft twist.  since steel is a homogeneous material, it's properties are only influence by wall thickness, taper, and steps.  A graphite composite can have more layers placed, at different angles to reduce this twist.  Engineers use composite materials in order to control motion in these three planes,

 

Everything I'm discussing is prior to contact.  Once you have first touch, the ball has been given it's orders.  I'm concerned on shafts being stable to ensure better impact alignments

It is funny that people do not realize that even a slow swing speed imparts forces that have to be countered or followed causing the anything that is not directly in line to create that twist.  Don't get me wrong, I understand how someone might say, it is hardly moving, how can it twist "that much" but once you see it once, it is hard not to see it everywhere.  

So, the most important question your post brings to my mind, and I am surprised I haven't seen it asked (or did I miss it) is: Where and How do I get the evaluation?  

[DStar]

I've tried 2 shafts in my putters, both KBS.

Started with the CT Tour (as it was the cheaper option) in my original putter which felt nice - smooth, worked well. I then changed that for a matt black OneStep which felt even better and now it's installed in my current, slightly heavier, putter I've noticed less mishits on long putts and feel is improved. 

The OneStep also looks great and have had many people ask me about it. 

Edited April 18, 2023 by DStar

[B_R_A_D_Y]

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Edited April 18, 2023 by B_R_A_D_Y
The editor is screwed up.

[B_R_A_D_Y]

9 hours ago, Mackey said:

There is a lot to be said for playing the same putter for a long time.  You really get a feel for how it rolls.

A 90yr old at the club practically 1-putts everything using a Bullseye he’s played since the 1960s. I think he said he paid $25 for it. Just laughs at our new putters & their prices. 

[cnosil]

8 hours ago, Subdiver1 said:

So, the most important question your post brings to my mind, and I am surprised I haven't seen it asked (or did I miss it) is: Where and How do I get the evaluation?  

Tools like Puttlab, Quintic, Capto, Trackman, GCQuad, Blast motion, Ping putting App, and other similar systems are designed to measure the putters performance during the stroke.   these systems show you is how the putter moves through the stroke and how consistent your results are.   Change putters and/or change shafts and measure again to find the combination that optimizes distance control and startline.  Conceptually, It isn’t any different than fitting any other club.  The key lies in the fitters ability to interpret the results and have enough knowledge about putter dynamics to make the correct changes…shape, head weight, counterbalance, offset, hosel type, hosel placement, grip, and as discussed in this thread shaft.  
 

2 hours ago, B_R_A_D_Y said:

A 90yr old at the club practically 1-putts everything using a Bullseye he’s played since the 1960s. I think he said he paid $25 for it. Just laughs at our new putters & their prices. 

Yep, we tend to overthink things and just like putters, we can play effective and good golf from tee to green golf with woods and irons from the 60s.  The gentleman you are referring to has developed skill with that club.  He has spent over 60 years of building and perfecting a stroke to make the putter work for him.   That is one approach to golf pick any piece of equipment and figure out how to make it work for you.   The newer approach is let’s find the equipment that works for what you do.  Both are effective but one can take a lot longer to figure out.  

[McGolf]

I can speak to thre stroke lab and bgt shafts when compared to a standard putter shaft for different reasons.

one is an odyssey comparison and the stroke lab shaft is light years smoother making it easier for making putts.  This for 2 reasons, the back weight in the shaft and the small amount of steel for the tip.

second is bgt in a makefield putter. Putt Better with a STABILITY putter shaft

 

[MacTourney]

14 hours ago, B_R_A_D_Y said:

A 90yr old at the club practically 1-putts everything using a Bullseye he’s played since the 1960s. I think he said he paid $25 for it. Just laughs at our new putters & their prices. 

Funny, but gotta love it too!

[Quigleyd]

There are lots of putter shafts upgrades out there these days both steel and graphite. These all promise different things. Do you think the make a difference?

[cnosil]

17 minutes ago, Quigleyd said:

There are lots of putter shafts upgrades out there these days both steel and graphite. These all promise different things. Do you think the make a difference?

Yes they make a difference and generally promise the same thing: better distance and face control.   

Will you notice the difference is probably a bigger question.  You won't drop 4 strokes off the  number of putts per round.   You might save a stroke every 5 rounds or 10 rounds.    You'd have to measure the improvement over a season to see if there is an actual benefit.    Using something like a Puttlab, Quintic, or Capto you could see the improved control; actual number might be 0.25* face angle. 

[Quigleyd]

I am still skeptical that benafits are real outside of a change in feel. That can present real benefits but I am not certain they can be measured on any system.

[GolfSpy_APH]

Someone else quite recertify asked a very similar question. I'll try and find the thread and with merge or link it here for you.

However without a doubt yes I think they make a deference! 

[cnosil]

11 hours ago, Quigleyd said:

I am still skeptical that benafits are real outside of a change in feel. That can present real benefits but I am not certain they can be measured on any system.

Feel is probably the most notable change.  Why don’t you think improvement can be measured and what do you consider real benefit?
 

 Two of the skills in putting are distance control and face control.   Without tech, I can measure dispersion and make rates and see if it improves; this would require a significant number of putts to assess.   I could use a system that measures launch, ball speed, and face angle at impact.   It could show that you typically have one degree of error with you face angle at impact but with the new shaft you have .75 degree of error.   Small improvement but an improvement that might result in making more 10 foot putts.   Not going to take someone that typically has 35 putts a round and make them a sub 30 putt per round player.   
 

Couldn’t we say the same thing; no real difference, about any shaft or clubhead for full swing clubs?  

[Quigleyd]

26 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Feel is probably the most notable change.  Why don’t you think improvement can be measured and what do you consider real benefit?
 

 Two of the skills in putting are distance control and face control.   Without tech, I can measure dispersion and make rates and see if it improves; this would require a significant number of putts to assess.   I could use a system that measures launch, ball speed, and face angle at impact.   It could show that you typically have one degree of error with you face angle at impact but with the new shaft you have .75 degree of error.   Small improvement but an improvement that might result in making more 10 foot putts.   Not going to take someone that typically has 35 putts a round and make them a sub 30 putt per round player.   
 

Couldn’t we say the same thing; no real difference, about any shaft or clubhead for full swing clubs?  

 

I think the difference here is the very very low amount of force and torque being applied. I have tried basically every putter shaft out there baring a few and I can notice a feel at impact difference but I don't notice a difference from a standard steel shaft and something that is zero torque. I am not like "wow! That was way easier to keep on line".. 

 

I am completely happy to be proven wrong. I just have not seen anything yet to say that out side of making your bag and putter have a bit more bling that there is a real benefit in made putts. 

[cnosil]

28 minutes ago, Quigleyd said:

 

I think the difference here is the very very low amount of force and torque being applied. I have tried basically every putter shaft out there baring a few and I can notice a feel at impact difference but I don't notice a difference from a standard steel shaft and something that is zero torque. I am not like "wow! That was way easier to keep on line".. 

 

I am completely happy to be proven wrong. I just have not seen anything yet to say that out side of making your bag and putter have a bit more bling that there is a real benefit in made putts. 

I don’t think you will ever get that “wow” effect nor will you easily notice more made putts unless you track detailed stats on make percentages from every distance.  Probably also depends on head weight of the putter.   
 

that is the problem, there really isn’t a good study that shows the influence.  kind of like shaft puring, people are on one side or the other.  

[Quigleyd]

42 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I don’t think you will ever get that “wow” effect nor will you easily notice more made putts unless you track detailed stats on make percentages from every distance.  Probably also depends on head weight of the putter.   
 

that is the problem, there really isn’t a good study that shows the influence.  kind of like shaft puring, people are on one side or the other.  

Mygolfspy needs to do a test. lol. 

[cnosil]

29 minutes ago, Quigleyd said:

Mygolfspy needs to do a test. lol. 

I agree and I keep suggesting it.   Back when the BGT shaft first came out they built a putter where the shaft was the only difference.  They tried to do some measurement with the GCQuad but logistically it didn’t work out.   Hoping with the new facility they can get a little better tech associated with measuring putting performance.    

[Quigleyd]

4 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I agree and I keep suggesting it.   Back when the BGT shaft first came out they built a putter where the shaft was the only difference.  They tried to do some measurement with the GCQuad but logistically it didn’t work out.   Hoping with the new facility they can get a little better tech associated with measuring putting performance.    

Do it the same as the driver test. Set up a control putter. Something standard like an Newport model at 34 inches. then take that same head and build up 30 other putters with your BGT, KBS cutter and one step, UST all-in, stroke lab, LAGOLF, etc etc etc.. roll puts at 5, 10, and 20 feet. 3 putts at each distance and with 100 different golfers. Record the data on the putter system of your chosing and measure the differences. 

 

 

[cnosil]

22 minutes ago, Quigleyd said:

Do it the same as the driver test. Set up a control putter. Something standard like an Newport model at 34 inches. then take that same head and build up 30 other putters with your BGT, KBS cutter and one step, UST all-in, stroke lab, LAGOLF, etc etc etc.. roll puts at 5, 10, and 20 feet. 3 putts at each distance and with 100 different golfers. Record the data on the putter system of your chosing and measure the differences. 

The protocol isn’t the problem,  they don’t have a system (Puttlab, Quintic, Capto, etc.)that will be able to provide the necessary detail 

[Quigleyd]

33 minutes ago, cnosil said:

The protocol isn’t the problem,  they don’t have a system (Puttlab, Quintic, Capto, etc.)that will be able to provide the necessary detail 

They know a lot of people that do. they dont have the equipment for the ball test. That is why they do it at Ping or PXG. 

[cnosil]

12 minutes ago, Quigleyd said:

They know a lot of people that do. they dont have the equipment for the ball test. That is why they do it at Ping or PXG. 

I think the new facility might have some tech.  

[cnosil]

20 hours ago, Quigleyd said:

They know a lot of people that do. they dont have the equipment for the ball test. That is why they do it at Ping or PXG. 

Completely forgot about this video and comparison    I am sure @McGolfwould be happy to give some insights into his findings.  

 

 

[biggerwoody6]

19 hours ago, cnosil said:

Completely forgot about this video and comparison    I am sure @McGolfwould be happy to give some insights into his funding.  

 

 

Thanks for that video, it's made me even more excited for the courses to finally open up here.  I purchased a BGT Tour 2 to put in my Scotty Special Seclect Newport 2 and really want to see for myself if it makes a difference.  Can't wait to be able to share my findings.  Hopefully get the same results as @McGolf

[ChitownM2]

I have two ER7 putters and the only difference is one has a BGT shaft and the other has the stock shaft.  For an amateur like me, the only difference I've really noticed is feel.  I don't think I putt noticeably better with one or the other, they just feel different but after some practice I end up in the same place with both.   

 

On 4/26/2023 at 11:29 AM, cnosil said:

I agree and I keep suggesting it.   Back when the BGT shaft first came out they built a putter where the shaft was the only difference.  They tried to do some measurement with the GCQuad but logistically it didn’t work out.   Hoping with the new facility they can get a little better tech associated with measuring putting performance.    

This seems like something they could easily arrange to have tested if that is what they wanted to do.  You could rent out a day on someone's Quintec or similar for a pretty small price and run 20-30 people through it in ~10 hours.  I'd definitely like to see them do it just to see the data, especially now that there are so many different shaft options out there.  I'd like to see the BGT, LA Golf, Accra, KBS, etc options all pitted against each other.  

[cnosil]

10 hours ago, ChitownM2 said:

This seems like something they could easily arrange to have tested if that is what they wanted to do.  You could rent out a day on someone's Quintec or similar for a pretty small price and run 20-30 people through it in ~10 hours.  I'd definitely like to see them do it just to see the data, especially now that there are so many different shaft options out there.  I'd like to see the BGT, LA Golf, Accra, KBS, etc options all pitted against each other.  

I also want to see it done.   Having watched the logistics of doing most wanted testing, I believe it would take significantly longer than 10 hours.  coordinating people is a tough thing to do.  I also comes down to prioritization of work and this doesn’t fall that high on this list. It could be moving up with the shafts becoming minimal cost upgrade options on PXG and Cleveland putters so they are more stock than they were before.   I’ll try to remember to mention it to Adam next time I see him; he’s a putter guy so maybe he would consider.  

[ChitownM2]

15 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I also want to see it done.   Having watched the logistics of doing most wanted testing, I believe it would take significantly longer than 10 hours.  coordinating people is a tough thing to do.  I also comes down to prioritization of work and this doesn’t fall that high on this list. It could be moving up with the shafts becoming minimal cost upgrade options on PXG and Cleveland putters so they are more stock than they were before.   I’ll try to remember to mention it to Adam next time I see him; he’s a putter guy so maybe he would consider.  

I was more talking about the time on the equipment if they were to rent it, not the total time invested by MGS.  I also wasn't thinking of doing a full on most-wanted style testing and I definitely used the wrong words, I meant 20-30 putters not people.  I was envisioning like 3-4 putters with 5 different shafts and maybe 3-5 testers from different handicaps doing the testing.  I think you could get through that in one day, all the prep and data analysis, write-up, etc would take much longer but that is part of their normal operations.

[cnosil]

6 minutes ago, ChitownM2 said:

I was more talking about the time on the equipment if they were to rent it, not the total time invested by MGS.  I also wasn't thinking of doing a full on most-wanted style testing and I definitely used the wrong words, I meant 20-30 putters not people.  I was envisioning like 3-4 putters with 5 different shafts and maybe 3-5 testers from different handicaps doing the testing.  I think you could get through that in one day, all the prep and data analysis, write-up, etc would take much longer but that is part of their normal operations.

20-30 putters would probably take 4-5 sessions per person depending on protocols.  
 

I think protocol would be leverage a heavy (365+ gr) and a light (sub 350)  head.  You want to do similar to most wanted with short, mid, and long putts to see if there is any advantage based on distance/stroke length.  If we look at the shafts you would have 10-15 putters per weight class since you would probably want to include some of the after market steel like the KBS one step.  A single session would comprise about 5 putters since that takes about an hour to complete the session so that is how I came up with  4-6 sessions per person.  If you do more than about 5 putters during a single session there is a level of fatigue that comes into play.   Then you have to schedule those testers over 4-6 days.  I wouldn’t select  the testers based on handicap but based on stroke type.  Ideally you want people with low to high arc, low to high rotation, and different rhythms. 
 

as for the measurement equipment, based on some things I have heard, when the new MGS HQ is completed it may be more feasible to actually do this type of testing.  

[Tsecor]

my personal answer is NO...

 

I have an old school putter with a wooden shaft and I putt just as well with that as I do a modern shaft in a fully custom putter.......its all mindset and putter skill.....

last season we played in a charity outing and my scramble partner carved a putter from a tree branch....no exaggeration.....we didnt three putt one green.

[adiogolf]

To keep it short and sweet...YES there is a difference and it does show up on the scorecard. That being said, it's all personal preference. I recently went for a putter fitting for the first time in 12 years, since playing competitive golf in college. I tried both steel and graphite putter shafts. I have a SB-ST putt stroke. I ended up choosing the KBS GPS Tour shaft for my BB1-LN gamer. #1 because of the noticeable difference it made for me in feel and purposeful mis-hits(toe/heel). #2 because of how it will impact my stroke in long/hail-mary situations. Less inconsistency off the face, less bounce and reverb off over 30 feet...It just narrows the room for error. Now if you want to give competitive golf a shot again like me you may wanna spend the extra $$$ for it..if you don't I would say save your money. It's not gonna make a big difference...especially if your 6 beers deep. Cheers y'all.

[MattWillGolf]

In looking at various aftermarket graphite putter shaft conversion options for a mallet (Evnroll ER7) with a single bend shaft mounted directly to the head, the two possibilities that I found, BGT-Stability and UST Mamiya- ALL-IN install on a portion of the existing steel shaft. Does the fact that these shafts require the use of some length of the existing steel shaft lessen the benefits of the changing to a graphite putter shaft?

[cnosil]

5 minutes ago, MattWillGolf said:

In looking at various aftermarket graphite putter shaft conversion options for a mallet (Evnroll ER7) with a single bend shaft mounted directly to the head, the two possibilities that I found, BGT-Stability and UST Mamiya- ALL-IN install on a portion of the existing steel shaft. Does the fact that these shafts require the use of some length of the existing steel shaft lessen the benefits of the changing to a graphite putter shaft?

In theory no.  I am guessing the steel is short enough that it becomes “stiffer”