Popular Post WaffleHouseTour Posted June 15, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted June 15, 2023 I have always struggled with green reading. I worked hard this winter on my stroke indoors, but came out struggling to determine where to aim. When I'm confident with my target I have no problems, and feel very confident over four footers (my Skillest coach had me sinking 100 four footers in a row over the winter). But the lack of confidence in target results in all kinds of other speed problems. I've got a couple holes at home where, even though I've played it for twenty years, depending on the pin location I can't tell if its a left to right, or right to left. And I really am confused by up hill, side hill slopes. I've been thinking about AimPoint for the last two years, watching the finger waggling on tv, and listening to chatter about it. After listening to John Sherman's pod cast with AimPoint founder Mark Sweeney, I decided to make the jump. Found a Level 2 AimPoint instructor on their website three hours away (had to drive that way for work anyway) and went for a lesson last night. No clinics anywhere near me. The lesson lasted two hours. The first half really on the theory, learning on how it works and learning what I'm feeling with my feet. Second hour was putting it into practice. Then a little clean up at the end with writing down some notes on how to practice it and find my feels, and calibrate for speed. I gotta say, I was impressed by what I saw and did. When the instructor and I talked through things, what my challenges were, habits and tendencies, I told him I thought I over read the break. That may have been true for 6 footers; but boy, was I wrong on things in that 15 to 20 foot range. When I started dropping some of those (or leaving tap ins) I could have fallen over laughing at where AimPoint had me correctly targeting and where I otherwise might have. But anyone who has read my posts knows I'm a very CDO, Type A, analytical person - so today I'm off to a hardware store to get myself a digital level - I want to, need to, be sure I can feel the difference between a 0%, 1%, 2% slope - so I intend to practice getting that feeling. The instructor and I talked about how to do that, how to make sure I'm getting the right feels and setting up some practice stations with some tees and randomly moving from a 1% to a 2% to a 0 to a 3%... Listening to the podcast w Sweeney, it's clear it takes some time. You have to stick with it. And you also have to calibrate yourself and how you aim - a 2% is not the same on a green running at a 10 stimp as it is on a 12 stimp. But getting the read - thats quick. I'm anxious to see if my pace and time improve. Listening to TV you'd think I'm adding half an hour to my playing time - but last night it sure felt faster - particularly if you get down in two strokes rather than three. So... I'm going to post my putting Arccos putting stats as of today, pre-AimPoint, last ten rounds comparing my shotsgained versus a scratch. And I'll come back later and do it again, see what we learned. I'm posting this under Lessons rather than a Review - as I'd really like to hear what others have experienced with it, suggestions or hints at how to improve that "feel" and calibration. Unlike some piece of equipment, this is all subject to operator error or success. So what do my fellow Spies who've tried it think? Your experience? tony@CIC, Iamsecond116, cnosil and 9 others 8 4 Quote Walking ahead of my BagBoy QuadXL w Alphard eWheels Driver: Callaway Mavrik SubZero 9* Neutral w stock Evenflow Riptide R flex shaft 3W Titelist TS2 15* Draw w Tensei Blue R flex 3H, 4H Cobra One Length F9 Speedback hybrids (1”short) w Fujikura Atmos R flex shaft 5I-GW Cobra Forged TEC Black One Length (1”short, 2* flat) KBS 90 R flex shafts 56, 60 Cobra King MIM One Length Black (1” short) KBS HiRev2.0 125 S flex shafts ER7 or Scotty Futura X - 35” OnCore Elixr (lemon or lime) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anotherburntsteak Posted June 15, 2023 Share Posted June 15, 2023 I love that you are doing this. I have virtually the same story as you except for the fact I live in the middle of nowhere and cant go get a lesson. Very jealous. I am a huge Jon Sherman slappy, love anything he produces so that pod really got me thinking about this as well. I have been trying to find as many videos as I can about it online. In fact, I came to the site today to search Aimpoint and see what others were saying and doing around it and this post happen to pop. Few questions I have here... even if you are misreading a 1-2 or a 2-3 how much is it really impacting your misses? I feel like even a misread can get you close enough to avoid 3putts how much variance do most courses have. I saw you mentioned a digital scale... have you tried your iphone measurement tool yet? using your fingers, are you putting your first finger on the edge of the hole or the center of the hole? I cannot seem to find clarity on this for sure.... Iamsecond116 and cksurfdude 2 Quote G430 LST - Graphite Design Tour AD DI6 XS AI Smoke Hybrid 3 & 5 - LA Golf A Series 105 XS ZX5 MKII 5i-AW - 1150 GH XS - ChipR - Black SnakeBite 53 & 57 - Super Select Golo 6.5 TP5x Yellow / Left Dash / B X / ZStar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMart519 Posted June 15, 2023 Share Posted June 15, 2023 I enjoy using aimpoint even when friends give me grief about "doing my calculations" if I happen to be first to putt and am last to the green. Otherwise nobody notices what I am doing while other putt. I use a spirit level app for my phone instead of buying a level but I'm sure the accuracy is a fair bit worse. To practice, I will take a read with my feet on the practice green when working on putting, then quickly drop my phone where I am standing to compare my feel. RE the podcast: we never talked about half percent reads in my aimpoint clinic and I never tried to develop enough feel to get to that level of detail. Another benefit I found is better distance control. As I walk to the first 1/3 and second third of the putt I am counting my paces and then get the total distance of the putt as well as a better sense of how uphill or downhill it is. I know that taking the putter head back to inside my trail foot is a 20' putt on most greens, outside of foot is 30' and have other check points for 45 and 60'. These benchmarks have really helped my lag putting. I don't have the "feel" to look at a long lag putt and be able to knock a 50 footer within 4'. At least not without a 15-20 minute putting warmup before the round. I predominantly walk when I play and am strategic about walking on to the green towards the hole then out to my ball while taking my reads with my feet. Many times I don't even bother marking my ball if it's clean, gauge the break with my fingers and am ready to go. It is a faster process than anyone who uses a line on the ball they need to setup. Any 2nd putt about 3' or longer I will take a second read as I like the "certainty" of the aimpoint process giving me a specific target to align with. Needing only 1 read inside 6' makes this quicker than the first read, again I'm not marking or setting up a line on my ball. cksurfdude 1 Quote G425 MAX Driver & 5W Baffler Rail-H 3H-4H 699 Pro Utility V2 - 4i APEX CF19 6-AW INDI Wedges 52, 56, 60 EAS 2.0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMart519 Posted June 15, 2023 Share Posted June 15, 2023 5 minutes ago, anotherburntsteak said: even if you are misreading a 1-2 or a 2-3 how much is it really impacting your misses? I feel like even a misread can get you close enough to avoid 3putts As you heard on the podcast, if you have a long lag each finger can be 1' or more of break, if you under read you can be a few feet below the hole. Add a couple feet due to wrong speed and it's far from a guarantee you won't 3 putt. how much variance do most courses have. I saw you mentioned a digital scale... have you tried your iphone measurement tool yet? Does the iphone tool allow you to lay the phone flat on its back? I don't believe it used to. Most courses will have everything from 1-4 percent slopes. Unfortunately, the variance will be a frustration. There are often harder and softer greens on the same course due to wind and sun exposure. 9 hole courses converted to 18 holes where each 9 was built at different times with variation in greens that needs mid round adjustments, etc. using your fingers, are you putting your first finger on the edge of the hole or the center of the hole? I cannot seem to find clarity on this for sure.... edge of finger at center of hole on all putts over 6' long. cksurfdude and anotherburntsteak 2 Quote G425 MAX Driver & 5W Baffler Rail-H 3H-4H 699 Pro Utility V2 - 4i APEX CF19 6-AW INDI Wedges 52, 56, 60 EAS 2.0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny B Posted June 15, 2023 Share Posted June 15, 2023 I am interested in following your progress. I have never seen anyone in my area use Aimpoint, nor have I seen anyone during our golf trips. The closest instructor is 150 miles away. I also don't know that I could feel the slopes or differences in slopes with my feet. I can see slopes that I know I can't feel. It probably doesn't help that my right leg is 1/2" shorter than my left leg. The architect of our muni J.J. Engh built greens with very subtle ridges, but no undulations. Once I found the ridges, my putting improved. He also doesn't follow the norm, where greens naturally slope toward lower elevation or ponds for water runoff. It looks like it should, but it doesn't in all cases. Devious. tony@CIC and cksurfdude 2 Quote “We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegan_Golfer_PNW Posted June 15, 2023 Share Posted June 15, 2023 I actually saw this thread and then listened to the sweet spot podcast on aimpoint. I practiced it today and mind was blown. I couldn’t believe the tap ins it was leaving me on lag putts. I am a believer now. I downloaded a digital slope app on my phone to try and be precise and it seemed to work. cksurfdude 1 Quote Follow my journey to enjoying golf and going low Driver: Epic Max LS TD Cat 4 60g 3wHL: Rogue ST LS 75x Tensei AV Blue w/ xlink 7w: Apex UW 21* MMT 80S DI: Caley 01X 18* with PGH Stiff plus 95g 4-AW: 0211 with Tour Stiff 2.5* up 3/4" long, Soft stepped, MOI matched Wedges Zipcore Putter:Directed Force 2.1 69*/35" in blue Ball: Prime 4.0 Shot Tracking: Bag: Vessel VLX 2.0 Grip: Lamkin Sonar + Midsize Glove: My Reviews: Caley 01X Driving Iron Review 2023 Max Swing Speed Training and Speed Progress: Current Speed 120 in the MGS Speed Challenge (updated 3/15/23) TAIII #2 Review here: TAIII Impact #2 Putter ) Zipcore Tour Rack 54/full and 58/mid (review here) 0211 2019 Unofficial Review Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anotherburntsteak Posted June 15, 2023 Share Posted June 15, 2023 2 hours ago, Vegan_Golfer_PNW said: I actually saw this thread and then listened to the sweet spot podcast on aimpoint. I practiced it today and mind was blown. I couldn’t believe the tap ins it was leaving me on lag putts. I am a believer now. I downloaded a digital slope app on my phone to try and be precise and it seemed to work. ...are you using the previously mentioned app or did you find another one? cksurfdude 1 Quote G430 LST - Graphite Design Tour AD DI6 XS AI Smoke Hybrid 3 & 5 - LA Golf A Series 105 XS ZX5 MKII 5i-AW - 1150 GH XS - ChipR - Black SnakeBite 53 & 57 - Super Select Golo 6.5 TP5x Yellow / Left Dash / B X / ZStar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegan_Golfer_PNW Posted June 15, 2023 Share Posted June 15, 2023 5 minutes ago, anotherburntsteak said: ...are you using the previously mentioned app or did you find another one? Percent Slope app on Iphone cksurfdude, anotherburntsteak and sirchunksalot 3 Quote Follow my journey to enjoying golf and going low Driver: Epic Max LS TD Cat 4 60g 3wHL: Rogue ST LS 75x Tensei AV Blue w/ xlink 7w: Apex UW 21* MMT 80S DI: Caley 01X 18* with PGH Stiff plus 95g 4-AW: 0211 with Tour Stiff 2.5* up 3/4" long, Soft stepped, MOI matched Wedges Zipcore Putter:Directed Force 2.1 69*/35" in blue Ball: Prime 4.0 Shot Tracking: Bag: Vessel VLX 2.0 Grip: Lamkin Sonar + Midsize Glove: My Reviews: Caley 01X Driving Iron Review 2023 Max Swing Speed Training and Speed Progress: Current Speed 120 in the MGS Speed Challenge (updated 3/15/23) TAIII #2 Review here: TAIII Impact #2 Putter ) Zipcore Tour Rack 54/full and 58/mid (review here) 0211 2019 Unofficial Review Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveP043 Posted June 15, 2023 Share Posted June 15, 2023 I took an Aimpoint Express clinic about 5 or 6 years ago, and I'm a believer. I bought a 10" digital level to help my initial training, I believe its less susceptible to small-scale surface variations than a phone app is. Done properly, reads are at least as fast as traditional visual green-reading, and substantially faster than the anal "look from behind the ball, then look from behind the hole, then look again from behind the ball, then plumb-bob" methods. Of course you still have to get the speed right, and you still have to hit your intended line, but Aimpoint is a really good way to read greens. sirchunksalot, cksurfdude, Vegan_Golfer_PNW and 3 others 6 Quote Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X T22 54 and 58 wedges 7-wood 5-wood B60 G5i putter Right handed Reston, Virginia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cksurfdude Posted June 15, 2023 Share Posted June 15, 2023 Love AimPoint!! It was, very literally, a game changer for me .. really had trouble putting and figuring out breaks... Highly recommended to anyone even a little bit curious about it. A few years ago took a clinic and it just clicked with me, and I immediately started putting better (literally immediately - like within the time of the clinic). Since then I've worked a lot on my stroke mechanics and distance control, but learning AimPoint simplified - and quickened! - my putt setup process. I look about halfway to the hole, then at the area around the hole, decide if it's 1, 2, whatever .. only walk along the line maybe half the time .. and I do use the line on my ball to set it along my intended start line .. then I'm only focused on speed / distance. Takes a lot of stress out of putting, IMHO! After the clinic, on the advice of the instructor, I'd also purchased a 10" digital level (1. that can display % slope and 2. as mentioned above it will ignore any small bumps between your feet) and practiced with it a lot the first two seasons. Of course, I should bring it to the practice green with me every once in a while.... Vegan_Golfer_PNW, sirchunksalot, cnosil and 3 others 6 Quote WITB of an "aspiring" play-ah ... Driver...Callaway Paradym AI Smoke Max (Grafalloy ProLaunch Blue 45/A) 3H...Cobra King Tec (MMT 70/R) 7W...Tour Edge Exotics EXS (Tensei CK Blue 50/R) 4H...Callaway Epic Super Hybrid (Recoil ZT9 F3) 5H...Callaway Big Bertha '19 (Recoil 460 ESX F3) 6i-GW...Sub 70 699 V2 (Recoil 660 F3) SW, LW...Mizuno ES21 54-08, 60-06 (KBS Hi Rev 2.0) Putter...MLA Tour XDream or EvnRoll ER5 ...all in a Bag Boy hybrid bag on an MGI Zip Navigator. ..ball often, not always, MaxFli Tour. Or "found" Pro V1. Forum Member tester for the Paradym X driver (2023) Forum Member tester for the ExPutt Putting Simulator (2020) Other tests: MLA putter; Cleveland Hi Bore driver; Ben Hogan hybrids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caddie1966 Posted June 15, 2023 Share Posted June 15, 2023 I’m a plumb bobber. I’ve used it successfully for years. There are a lot of aim pointers at my club. I don’t feel they get the line any better than a good plumb bob does. I also read from the low side to get slope and from behind the hole to find breaks near the hole. I think the key with plumbing like aim point is start line. cksurfdude 1 Quote 917D2 driver 3 wood TS2 19 degree and 21 degree hybrids 0211 5-GW irons Glide 56 and 60 degree wedges EXO7 putter MAX grip Pro V1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaffleHouseTour Posted June 16, 2023 Author Share Posted June 16, 2023 Spent most of my day working and driving to visit my daughter for fathers day weekend - she’s taking me golfing sarurday and Sunday (“awwwww” they collectively sighed…) - so sorry for the slow response. Got my level from Menards and went to the closest course w a practice green to “practice” feeling slope w my feet and assign it a number. I’m sure the boys cleaning the carts nearby thought I was nuts. Stand with legs spread and my eyes closed gently rocking back and forth, then look down at the level, then move and do it again. Making a few mistakes along the way, but learning what a 1 feels like from a two. Biggest challenge is matching the speed - their stated way to do it is roll it one foot past - so what will generate that. 13 hours ago, anotherburntsteak said: Few questions I have here... even if you are misreading a 1-2 or a 2-3 how much is it really impacting your misses? I feel like even a misread can get you close enough to avoid 3putts how much variance do most courses have. I saw you mentioned a digital scale... have you tried your iphone measurement tool yet? using your fingers, are you putting your first finger on the edge of the hole or the center of the hole? I cannot seem to find clarity on this for sure.... 1 depends on the distance and speed. And to your point, they aren’t all going in, but if I can leave them in tap in range and I didn’t end up trying to save par from ten feet, that an improvement. 2 I don’t know yet. The course I learned on had slopes w 0-4 % the instructor had marked out in advance to show me. At this mount today they were largely 0-2; but I did find a couple 3% slopes on the practice green I’m anxious to see what my home course looks like. I didn’t use my iPhone, but a level that shows percentage of slope - not degree of angle. Be glad to test the iph9ne app against my hardware store purchase and report my finding 3 first finger in the center if the hole. As I usually leave the stick in that’s my target. Today I had good results on the practice green. Will see what actusall round results in. Back tomorrow cksurfdude and anotherburntsteak 2 Quote Walking ahead of my BagBoy QuadXL w Alphard eWheels Driver: Callaway Mavrik SubZero 9* Neutral w stock Evenflow Riptide R flex shaft 3W Titelist TS2 15* Draw w Tensei Blue R flex 3H, 4H Cobra One Length F9 Speedback hybrids (1”short) w Fujikura Atmos R flex shaft 5I-GW Cobra Forged TEC Black One Length (1”short, 2* flat) KBS 90 R flex shafts 56, 60 Cobra King MIM One Length Black (1” short) KBS HiRev2.0 125 S flex shafts ER7 or Scotty Futura X - 35” OnCore Elixr (lemon or lime) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnosil Posted June 16, 2023 Share Posted June 16, 2023 22 hours ago, anotherburntsteak said: even if you are misreading a 1-2 or a 2-3 how much is it really impacting your misses? I feel like even a misread can get you close enough to avoid 3putts how much variance do most courses have. I saw you mentioned a digital scale... have you tried your iphone measurement tool yet Here are some measurements from a chart to give you an example; green speed would be considered average. . At 10 feet a 1% slope would be 4” outside the hole, 2% is 10.5”, 3% is 1’ 5”, and 4% is 1’ 11” so about 6 inches per degree of slope change on the referenced speed green. if you read Geoff Mangum’s work, he would say that around the hole using a 2% grade would get you pretty close. As you get outside of 10 feet you would start to run into multiple breaks and have to make adjustments. cksurfdude and anotherburntsteak 2 Quote Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: Paradym AI Smoke Max HL 16.5* w/MCA TENSEI AV Series Blue Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: Render w/VA Composites Baddazz Backup Putters: Sacks Parente MC 3 Stripe, Milled Collection RSX 2 Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaffleHouseTour Posted June 16, 2023 Author Share Posted June 16, 2023 Had first green jitters today. You know, like first tee jitters, teeing off in front of a crowd at a pro-am or something. But in this case trying to put AimPoint into practice for the first time, on an unfamiliar course, with three guys I met ten minutes and 370 yards ago... Three putted the first green... Wasn't great on the second. Slower than I was expecting and I was nervous. But progressively got more comfortable, better or speed and much better on the putts. AimPoint identified some breaks and picked out some targets I NEVER would have looked at. So while the score was nothing to write home about Arccos said my putting was a +0.5; 7 1 puts, 10 two putts, and that first three putt for a total of 30. I'm anxious for my next round. One thing that made me nervous, uncomfortable, is just moving around the green and not standing on someone else's line. I don't want to hold up play - and didn't. We boogied around in right at four hours. But to keep up the pace I don't want to wait until it's my turn to go get my read with my feet. And if I'm away I don't want to stand in someone else's line. So that is going to take some practice. But all in all, I feel like Day One was a success. Just need to be sure it's not an aberration. I'm glad I practiced last night with a level, but am going to down load that "percent slope" app on the apple store and do a comparison - that'd be handy to take to the practice green. But the level fits in the bag just fine too. cksurfdude and cnosil 2 Quote Walking ahead of my BagBoy QuadXL w Alphard eWheels Driver: Callaway Mavrik SubZero 9* Neutral w stock Evenflow Riptide R flex shaft 3W Titelist TS2 15* Draw w Tensei Blue R flex 3H, 4H Cobra One Length F9 Speedback hybrids (1”short) w Fujikura Atmos R flex shaft 5I-GW Cobra Forged TEC Black One Length (1”short, 2* flat) KBS 90 R flex shafts 56, 60 Cobra King MIM One Length Black (1” short) KBS HiRev2.0 125 S flex shafts ER7 or Scotty Futura X - 35” OnCore Elixr (lemon or lime) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cksurfdude Posted June 16, 2023 Share Posted June 16, 2023 23 hours ago, Caddie1966 said: I’m a plumb bobber. I’ve used it successfully for years. The one and only thing I know about plumb bobbing is watching some of the older guys do it on TV! But from your explanation I'd take a guess that it's kind of a pre-computer, precursor to AimPoint. Quote WITB of an "aspiring" play-ah ... Driver...Callaway Paradym AI Smoke Max (Grafalloy ProLaunch Blue 45/A) 3H...Cobra King Tec (MMT 70/R) 7W...Tour Edge Exotics EXS (Tensei CK Blue 50/R) 4H...Callaway Epic Super Hybrid (Recoil ZT9 F3) 5H...Callaway Big Bertha '19 (Recoil 460 ESX F3) 6i-GW...Sub 70 699 V2 (Recoil 660 F3) SW, LW...Mizuno ES21 54-08, 60-06 (KBS Hi Rev 2.0) Putter...MLA Tour XDream or EvnRoll ER5 ...all in a Bag Boy hybrid bag on an MGI Zip Navigator. ..ball often, not always, MaxFli Tour. Or "found" Pro V1. Forum Member tester for the Paradym X driver (2023) Forum Member tester for the ExPutt Putting Simulator (2020) Other tests: MLA putter; Cleveland Hi Bore driver; Ben Hogan hybrids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cksurfdude Posted June 16, 2023 Share Posted June 16, 2023 6 hours ago, WaffleHouseTour said: One thing that made me nervous, uncomfortable, is just moving around the green and not standing on someone else's line. I don't want to hold up play - Suggestion to try out while waiting... stand behind your ball, take a sighting to the hole, make a preliminary guess as to the slope reading .. then when you can walk in step up and make your AP read... See if your feet confirm or refute your initial read (but go with your feet, assuming you're committed to AimPoint). (..and remember Star Wars very first episode: "Use your senses, Luke - your eyes can deceive you.") cnosil and Mr. Mushball 2 Quote WITB of an "aspiring" play-ah ... Driver...Callaway Paradym AI Smoke Max (Grafalloy ProLaunch Blue 45/A) 3H...Cobra King Tec (MMT 70/R) 7W...Tour Edge Exotics EXS (Tensei CK Blue 50/R) 4H...Callaway Epic Super Hybrid (Recoil ZT9 F3) 5H...Callaway Big Bertha '19 (Recoil 460 ESX F3) 6i-GW...Sub 70 699 V2 (Recoil 660 F3) SW, LW...Mizuno ES21 54-08, 60-06 (KBS Hi Rev 2.0) Putter...MLA Tour XDream or EvnRoll ER5 ...all in a Bag Boy hybrid bag on an MGI Zip Navigator. ..ball often, not always, MaxFli Tour. Or "found" Pro V1. Forum Member tester for the Paradym X driver (2023) Forum Member tester for the ExPutt Putting Simulator (2020) Other tests: MLA putter; Cleveland Hi Bore driver; Ben Hogan hybrids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caddie1966 Posted June 17, 2023 Share Posted June 17, 2023 3 hours ago, cksurfdude said: The one and only thing I know about plumb bobbing is watching some of the older guys do it on TV! But from your explanation I'd take a guess that it's kind of a pre-computer, precursor to AimPoint. It’s a golden oldie, kinda like me. However, there are YT vids that compare aimpoint and plumbing and the results are virtually the same when both are done right. The trick with both is always, always, always get the putt started on line. BTW, plumb bobbing doesn’t require buying a digital level so it’s inherently cheaper so it’s got that going for it. The only 2 things you need to know to plumb are your dominant eye and how to hold your putter so it hangs in a straight line. No 1 degree, 2, degree 3 degree slopes to figure or guess at and it doesn’t take one, two or three fingers. cksurfdude 1 Quote 917D2 driver 3 wood TS2 19 degree and 21 degree hybrids 0211 5-GW irons Glide 56 and 60 degree wedges EXO7 putter MAX grip Pro V1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
higherplane Posted June 22, 2023 Share Posted June 22, 2023 Got into it a few weeks ago, watched a few videos on youtube, then worked on reading on practice green with feet. Amazing difference. Not sure if it is just more focus, but really works cksurfdude 1 Quote Driver - 2023 Callaway Paradym 9.0, 3 Wood -2022 Rogue ST Max, 3 Hybrid Mavrik, 2017 X-forged 4-PW, Wedges Callaway 50-56-60, Putter Odyssey Toulon Chicago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaffleHouseTour Posted June 23, 2023 Author Share Posted June 23, 2023 Thought today would be a good time for an update - SG putting +0.1 today, -2.7 yesterday, -2.7 Wed, -3.6 Tue, -3.6 Sun, +0.5 Sat. Across says "you're improving!" by +0.8 strokes compared to my previous 10 round average. Really was careful today, used my level on the practice green to try and calibrate my self. Today was a good day all around, but putting really really helped. Once you figure out the slope, speed is everything. Yeah, I know, speed is always everything. But when you weren't sure of the slope there were too many variables. What was really telling - Across breaks downs SG by length of putts - I've never had more then two in the green before... cnosil and cksurfdude 1 1 Quote Walking ahead of my BagBoy QuadXL w Alphard eWheels Driver: Callaway Mavrik SubZero 9* Neutral w stock Evenflow Riptide R flex shaft 3W Titelist TS2 15* Draw w Tensei Blue R flex 3H, 4H Cobra One Length F9 Speedback hybrids (1”short) w Fujikura Atmos R flex shaft 5I-GW Cobra Forged TEC Black One Length (1”short, 2* flat) KBS 90 R flex shafts 56, 60 Cobra King MIM One Length Black (1” short) KBS HiRev2.0 125 S flex shafts ER7 or Scotty Futura X - 35” OnCore Elixr (lemon or lime) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveP043 Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 On 6/16/2023 at 10:28 PM, Caddie1966 said: The only 2 things you need to know to plumb are your dominant eye and how to hold your putter so it hangs in a straight line. No 1 degree, 2, degree 3 degree slopes to figure or guess at and it doesn’t take one, two or three fingers. This might belong in a different thread, but can you outline the process? cksurfdude and cnosil 2 Quote Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X T22 54 and 58 wedges 7-wood 5-wood B60 G5i putter Right handed Reston, Virginia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveP043 Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 40 minutes ago, WaffleHouseTour said: Once you figure out the slope, speed is everything. Yeah, I know, speed is always everything. But when you weren't sure of the slope there were too many variables. Speed, and the ability to hit your intended line. Many players struggle aligning to their intended start line, or push or pull putts off of their intended start line. Green reading is just one of the 3 factors in putting. But getting a good read, by any method, sure helps. Caddie1966, cnosil and cksurfdude 3 Quote Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X T22 54 and 58 wedges 7-wood 5-wood B60 G5i putter Right handed Reston, Virginia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnosil Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 1 hour ago, DaveP043 said: This might belong in a different thread, but can you outline the process? The thing I find interesting about plumb bobbing is that there are multiple descriptions on how to do it. The one that seems best to me is very similar to aimpoint approaches. Straddle the line of the putt and center the butt end of the putter between your feet. Then observe if the head is closer to your right or left foot. I'd imagine you could then correlate how far to a slope percentage. Some of the limitations that are discussed is that it only works on single slopes so don't read a double breaker using plumb bobbing and that you need to ensure your putter hangs straight down since putters with toe hang don't always do that. The other methods where you use your dominant eye to see which side of the hole the putter appears on doesn't make sense to me. It will be interesting to hear the method the OP uses. DaveP043 and cksurfdude 2 Quote Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: Paradym AI Smoke Max HL 16.5* w/MCA TENSEI AV Series Blue Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: Render w/VA Composites Baddazz Backup Putters: Sacks Parente MC 3 Stripe, Milled Collection RSX 2 Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caddie1966 Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 45 minutes ago, DaveP043 said: This might belong in a different thread, but can you outline the process? @DaveP043 Dave, this is how I do it. I’ve broken this down as simply as I can. anywhere you want…. 1. Determine your dominant eye. If you haven’t done this, hold your hand out at arms length and form a circle like an okay sign with thumb and forefinger and look through the circle with both eyes open. Pick out a detail through that circle. Close your right eye. If the object is still in the circle, you are left eye dominant. If the detail is not there, close your left eye and the detail will be in the circle. If this happens, you are right eye dominant. I’m left eye dominant so I close my right eye and hold the putter with my right hand while plumbing. 2. Determine how to plumb your putter. Hold your putter shaft horizontally about half way down the shaft. Let it rest on your index finger to balance the putter. This may take a time or two, but as you do this, the putter head will fall into its balanced position, could be toe down, face left if you are a righty or face right if you are a lefty, or somewhere in between. When the putter is balanced on your finger, the direction your putter face is hanging is the direction the face should be hang as you are plumb as you now know when the putter hangs in that direction, it is plumb. When you determine which position you putter is in when plumb, hold it straight out in front of you just below the grip with the opposite hand and arm than your dominant eye. Line your eye up with the shaft. You now have a plumb line. Check it by looking at a door frame or something else you know to be straight. The shaft should be as straight as your doorframe or whatever you are measuring against. If not, you need to turn your putter until it is aligned with your straight edge. Note where the face points when it is plumb. My gamer faces about 830 on a clock face as it is a face balanced putter. If it were toe hang, it would hang to 6 on a clock face. You only need to do 1 and 2 once. But if you use more than one putter, you will have to find the balance point for each as every putter has its own and will plumb accordingly. on the green… 3. Stand directly behind your ball 3-10 feet with the hole on a straight line from the ball with both eyes open. The distance shortens with the putt length. You want to be where your ball and hole can align when holding your putter at arms length just below the grip while you look down the line created by the shaft. 4. Hold your putter up at arms length in it’s plumb position and align the ball and hole along the putter shaft with both eyes open. Now use only your dominant eye. The hole should appear on one side or the other of the shaft. If the hole is to the right of the shaft, the putt is left to right. If the hole is on the left, it is right to left. Use two hands if it is windy. 5. While reading the break, align your shaft with the outside half of the ball. Bisect the ball with the shaft. Identify the line that extends from your ball to 18”-24” past the hole while plumbing and pick out a spot on that line past the hole. While still holding your putter up, look down at your ball and pick out a spot a foot or so in front of the ball that is on the same line as your spot past the hole. This is your aim line. 6. Align you putter with the two spots you chose and you are aligned. Now it’s a matter of your stroke hitting that line and your speed to be able to make that putt. I add two other elements which I do before I plumb. 1. While walking off the putt length, I look from the low side to determine the slope, up hill, downhill, flat. If I can’t immediately determine low side by approaching the green to mark my ball, I will read both sides. 2. I go behind the hole about two to three feet and inspect the grain at the cup as grain will impact break and speed especially as the putt slows down. I also look for any odd things like a cup that hasn’t been installed correctly and any nuances around the hole. Then I do what I described in 3-6 above and stroke my putt. I’m sure there are others who add more to it but this works for me. Good luck. cksurfdude 1 Quote 917D2 driver 3 wood TS2 19 degree and 21 degree hybrids 0211 5-GW irons Glide 56 and 60 degree wedges EXO7 putter MAX grip Pro V1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveP043 Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 2 hours ago, Caddie1966 said: @DaveP043 Dave, this is how I do it. I’ve broken this down as simply as I can. anywhere you want…. 1. Determine your dominant eye. If you haven’t done this, hold your hand out at arms length and form a circle like an okay sign with thumb and forefinger and look through the circle with both eyes open. Pick out a detail through that circle. Close your right eye. If the object is still in the circle, you are left eye dominant. If the detail is not there, close your left eye and the detail will be in the circle. If this happens, you are right eye dominant. I’m left eye dominant so I close my right eye and hold the putter with my right hand while plumbing. 2. Determine how to plumb your putter. Hold your putter shaft horizontally about half way down the shaft. Let it rest on your index finger to balance the putter. This may take a time or two, but as you do this, the putter head will fall into its balanced position, could be toe down, face left if you are a righty or face right if you are a lefty, or somewhere in between. When the putter is balanced on your finger, the direction your putter face is hanging is the direction the face should be hang as you are plumb as you now know when the putter hangs in that direction, it is plumb. When you determine which position you putter is in when plumb, hold it straight out in front of you just below the grip with the opposite hand and arm than your dominant eye. Line your eye up with the shaft. You now have a plumb line. Check it by looking at a door frame or something else you know to be straight. The shaft should be as straight as your doorframe or whatever you are measuring against. If not, you need to turn your putter until it is aligned with your straight edge. Note where the face points when it is plumb. My gamer faces about 830 on a clock face as it is a face balanced putter. If it were toe hang, it would hang to 6 on a clock face. You only need to do 1 and 2 once. But if you use more than one putter, you will have to find the balance point for each as every putter has its own and will plumb accordingly. on the green… 3. Stand directly behind your ball 3-10 feet with the hole on a straight line from the ball with both eyes open. The distance shortens with the putt length. You want to be where your ball and hole can align when holding your putter at arms length just below the grip while you look down the line created by the shaft. 4. Hold your putter up at arms length in it’s plumb position and align the ball and hole along the putter shaft with both eyes open. Now use only your dominant eye. The hole should appear on one side or the other of the shaft. If the hole is to the right of the shaft, the putt is left to right. If the hole is on the left, it is right to left. Use two hands if it is windy. 5. While reading the break, align your shaft with the outside half of the ball. Bisect the ball with the shaft. Identify the line that extends from your ball to 18”-24” past the hole while plumbing and pick out a spot on that line past the hole. While still holding your putter up, look down at your ball and pick out a spot a foot or so in front of the ball that is on the same line as your spot past the hole. This is your aim line. 6. Align you putter with the two spots you chose and you are aligned. Now it’s a matter of your stroke hitting that line and your speed to be able to make that putt. I add two other elements which I do before I plumb. 1. While walking off the putt length, I look from the low side to determine the slope, up hill, downhill, flat. If I can’t immediately determine low side by approaching the green to mark my ball, I will read both sides. 2. I go behind the hole about two to three feet and inspect the grain at the cup as grain will impact break and speed especially as the putt slows down. I also look for any odd things like a cup that hasn’t been installed correctly and any nuances around the hole. Then I do what I described in 3-6 above and stroke my putt. I’m sure there are others who add more to it but this works for me. Good luck. I won't respond past this once. This is how its been described to me. To me, it seems that changing from both eyes to the dominant eye would always shift the view exactly the same way. That's what has happened when I've tried it. If it works for you, great, I'll continue with Aimpoint. Play well! Blueberry_Squishie, cksurfdude and cnosil 3 Quote Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X T22 54 and 58 wedges 7-wood 5-wood B60 G5i putter Right handed Reston, Virginia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnosil Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 3 hours ago, Caddie1966 said: 4. Hold your putter up at arms length in it’s plumb position and align the ball and hole along the putter shaft with both eyes open. Now use only your dominant eye. The hole should appear on one side or the other of the shaft. If the hole is to the right of the shaft, the putt is left to right. If the hole is on the left, it is right to left. I tried this and depending on if I focus on the shaft or the hole I see two of the other. Really can't line them up cksurfdude, DaveP043 and Blueberry_Squishie 3 Quote Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: Paradym AI Smoke Max HL 16.5* w/MCA TENSEI AV Series Blue Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: Render w/VA Composites Baddazz Backup Putters: Sacks Parente MC 3 Stripe, Milled Collection RSX 2 Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caddie1966 Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 1 hour ago, cnosil said: I tried this and depending on if I focus on the shaft or the hole I see two of the other. Really can't line them up I only see double if I’ve had a few. But just like other things, this may not be for everyone. cnosil, cksurfdude and DaveP043 2 1 Quote 917D2 driver 3 wood TS2 19 degree and 21 degree hybrids 0211 5-GW irons Glide 56 and 60 degree wedges EXO7 putter MAX grip Pro V1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaffleHouseTour Posted June 29, 2023 Author Share Posted June 29, 2023 Time for another check in - particularly because the putter was on fire. I'm convinced on this AimPoint. I felt things I never would have seen - and either made it or lagged it close enough to be stress free. I had one stinking three putt on the final hole - and its because I got sloppy on the 2nd putt. I was thinking more about score and doing math in my head than on the speed and break. Amana Colonies Golf Club was great place to really put this to the test - slopey greens and a few double breakers. Had a few threes and fours today. What I'm most happy about it getting it close from long distance. Dropping it into the 3 foot basket. Played yesterday at DesMoines Golf and Country Club. A Pete Dye course known for having diabolical greens. Didn't play very well - from tee to approach to the green. Lost -3.4 SG as I struggled with the speed. I mean struggled w speed. The guys I was playing with razzed me about "Keeganing" my putting as they watched me "take aim". But the three times I three putted, blasting the ball way too far past the hole, I went back and tried the initial putt again and either dropped it in the hole or put it in tap in range. So taking encouragement from that. cksurfdude, cnosil and DaveP043 3 Quote Walking ahead of my BagBoy QuadXL w Alphard eWheels Driver: Callaway Mavrik SubZero 9* Neutral w stock Evenflow Riptide R flex shaft 3W Titelist TS2 15* Draw w Tensei Blue R flex 3H, 4H Cobra One Length F9 Speedback hybrids (1”short) w Fujikura Atmos R flex shaft 5I-GW Cobra Forged TEC Black One Length (1”short, 2* flat) KBS 90 R flex shafts 56, 60 Cobra King MIM One Length Black (1” short) KBS HiRev2.0 125 S flex shafts ER7 or Scotty Futura X - 35” OnCore Elixr (lemon or lime) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaffleHouseTour Posted August 24, 2023 Author Share Posted August 24, 2023 Picked up a SlopeBoard to be able to practice getting the feel of the slope. Pretty simple device really. Find a flat spot - level attached - and set the board on the little staircase with each step creating a different slope. Practice getting the feel w left foot low then right. it even has a .5 strip you can use on its own or add to a step for those that can really fine tune their feel Nothing magical - just a way to get practice and improve your green ready. And this week I am all for something I can practice indoors. cnosil and cksurfdude 2 Quote Walking ahead of my BagBoy QuadXL w Alphard eWheels Driver: Callaway Mavrik SubZero 9* Neutral w stock Evenflow Riptide R flex shaft 3W Titelist TS2 15* Draw w Tensei Blue R flex 3H, 4H Cobra One Length F9 Speedback hybrids (1”short) w Fujikura Atmos R flex shaft 5I-GW Cobra Forged TEC Black One Length (1”short, 2* flat) KBS 90 R flex shafts 56, 60 Cobra King MIM One Length Black (1” short) KBS HiRev2.0 125 S flex shafts ER7 or Scotty Futura X - 35” OnCore Elixr (lemon or lime) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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