BoogerJL Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 (edited) What do you think a 16 hcp could shoot if he played his own 2 ball scramble? So essentially he would get a mulligan every shot. 2 drives, 2 approach shots , 2 putts etc. He would play the best of the two shoots each time, just like in a 2 man scramble. No triple max and has to putt everything out (obviously). For argument sake let’s say course plays 6400, stimp of 10 and slope rating 122 Edited February 25 by BoogerJL Jim Shaw, Rob Person, buckpillar and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment
GolfSpy_APH Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 Let's say their normal scoring average is 88..maybe 80? Unfortunately a lot of answers will be, depends. If they are someone that really struggles off the tee I don't see the score moving down that much. Sure they can learn from the first shot, but also knowing you always have a second can lead to looser and potentially worse first shots.. Interesting little thought experiment, but I'm going with 78-80. buckpillar, DaveP043, William P and 6 others 9 Quote as of Nov 6, 2023 (Past WITB) Driver: Paradym TD w/ GD ADDI 6X Driver Shootout! Wood: F7 3 wood 14.5* w/ Motore F1 Shaft Irons: T Series - T200 5 Iron T150 6-9 Iron T100 PW/GW Wedge: Toura Golf - A Spec 53,37,61 degree Putter: Mezz Max! Balls: Vice Pro Plus Drip (Blue/Orange) Link to comment
Rob Person Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 Playing best ball I would assume you could shave 4 strokes. Things I would consider are, would you hero play and use the same club for each shot or swap out to truly change the player? Are you tracking which ball is P1 and P2, and how many shot you used of each ball? I would definitely mark 2 players down on the scorecard. You can track natural finishes if you end up using the same ball on a hole that way. (P1 / P2) Of course in the end, the true score is negated, but then again, it makes for fun golf! Erin B, buckpillar, sirchunksalot and 3 others 6 Quote WITB-Foremost 551's - 3w, 5w, 5-SW (circa 1998), Top Flite 460cc Driver, Adam's 7w, Warrior GW and 60⁰, Odyssey AI-One DB putter. Just an old newbie golfer, trying to learn and improve 1 club at a time. Link to comment
Wheelieb Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 I think shaving off maybe 5-6 strokes could happen. However, that 16hdcp player is going to have to seriously have a good mental approach. He will have to forget about that first shot if it was bad real quick. Do I think he could shoot par? Probably not. sirchunksalot, TJ Hall, buckpillar and 3 others 6 Quote Callaway Paradym AI Smoke Max 9* with Tensei AV Blue 55 PXG 5 and 7 woods with Mitsubishi Diamana Shafts Mizuno Pro 225 5-GW with Dynamic Gold S300 shafts Taylormade Hi-Toe 54 and 58 degree wedges Ping Prime Tyne 4 Link to comment
Popular Post DaveP043 Posted February 25 Popular Post Share Posted February 25 9 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said: Let's say their normal scoring average is 88..maybe 80? I'd guess the average is even higher, maybe 3 over par net, so averaging 90 or 91. But I do agree, that player would be doing really well to be 8 or 10 strokes better than average, given two chances for every shot. Even par is our if the question, in my opinion. Beyond that, most players would be exhausted before the end of the round taking double the normal number of full swings! cnosil, TJ Hall, Wheelieb and 8 others 11 Quote Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X T22 54 and 58 wedges 7-wood 5-wood B60 G5i putter Right handed Reston, Virginia Link to comment
GolfSpy_APH Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 7 minutes ago, DaveP043 said: I'd guess the average is even higher, maybe 3 over par net, so averaging 90 or 91. But I do agree, that player would be doing really well to be 8 or 10 strokes better than average, given two chances for every shot. Even par is our if the question, in my opinion. Beyond that, most players would be exhausted before the end of the round taking double the normal number of full swings! That was what i was thinking about after is how tired I would be! Erin B, buckpillar, William P and 6 others 9 Quote as of Nov 6, 2023 (Past WITB) Driver: Paradym TD w/ GD ADDI 6X Driver Shootout! Wood: F7 3 wood 14.5* w/ Motore F1 Shaft Irons: T Series - T200 5 Iron T150 6-9 Iron T100 PW/GW Wedge: Toura Golf - A Spec 53,37,61 degree Putter: Mezz Max! Balls: Vice Pro Plus Drip (Blue/Orange) Link to comment
Jim Shaw Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 10 hours ago, BoogerJL said: What do you think a 16 hcp could shoot if he played his own 2 ball scramble? So essentially he would get a mulligan every shot. 2 drives, 2 approach shots , 2 putts etc. He would play the best of the two shoots each time, just like in a 2 man scramble. No triple max and has to putt everything out (obviously). For argument sake let’s say course plays 6400, stimp of 10 and slope rating 122 now that post is cause for thought on a sunday morning. I am going to say no. Too many "things" going on with a 16. It would be fun to get one to try, slope of 122 and green speeds are in their favour. Rob Person, buckpillar, TJ Hall and 2 others 5 Quote committed to performance excellence Link to comment
cnosil Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 IMO, score would depend on why the player is a 16. Like others, I'd say they would save 4-6 strokes. Jim Shaw, Rob Person, Dweed and 4 others 7 Quote Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: XCG7 Beta 15* w/Fujikura Fuel Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: Sacks Parente MC 3 Stripe Backup Putters: Milled Collection RSX 2, mFGP2, Futura 5W, TM-180 Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment
Erin B Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 14 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said: That was what i was thinking about after is how tired I would be! Me too buckpillar, TJ Hall, William P and 2 others 5 Quote I could play golf every day and learn something new each time. Driver: Callaway Paradym TD 9* Driver- Steadfast S Jupiter 45” shaft Ping 425-6 Dot Newton tipped 45" shaft TaylorMade 11.5* Mini Driver-Steadfast S 45” shaft Hybrids: PXG 0317 17*, 19* Steadfast S Jupiter shafts, PXG 211 22*-Project X Even Flow Riptide X shafts Irons: New Level 6-PW 902PD 6.5 ProjectX IO shafts Wedges: TaylorMade MG4 50*, 52*, 56* (TW Grind) Putter: TaylorMade Truss Heal PXG Bat Attack Ping Anser Ball: OnCore VeroX Titleist Pro V1X Callaway Chrome TourX https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63746-motocaddy-m-series-carts-2024-forum-member-review/?do=findComment&comment=1042686 https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63748-bridgestone-mindset-golf-ball-testing-sampling-and-shot-scope-ops/?do=findComment&comment=1046248 https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/62621-forum-member-reviews-callaway-whitebox-testing/?do=findComment&comment=1020558 Link to comment
Erin B Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 11 hours ago, BoogerJL said: What do you think a 16 hcp could shoot if he played his own 2 ball scramble? So essentially he would get a mulligan every shot. 2 drives, 2 approach shots , 2 putts etc. He would play the best of the two shoots each time, just like in a 2 man scramble. No triple max and has to putt everything out (obviously). For argument sake let’s say course plays 6400, stimp of 10 and slope rating 122 That would be a hard feat. I think it would be fun to try, but even a 10 handicap would have their work cut out for them. William P, TJ Hall, sirchunksalot and 1 other 4 Quote I could play golf every day and learn something new each time. Driver: Callaway Paradym TD 9* Driver- Steadfast S Jupiter 45” shaft Ping 425-6 Dot Newton tipped 45" shaft TaylorMade 11.5* Mini Driver-Steadfast S 45” shaft Hybrids: PXG 0317 17*, 19* Steadfast S Jupiter shafts, PXG 211 22*-Project X Even Flow Riptide X shafts Irons: New Level 6-PW 902PD 6.5 ProjectX IO shafts Wedges: TaylorMade MG4 50*, 52*, 56* (TW Grind) Putter: TaylorMade Truss Heal PXG Bat Attack Ping Anser Ball: OnCore VeroX Titleist Pro V1X Callaway Chrome TourX https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63746-motocaddy-m-series-carts-2024-forum-member-review/?do=findComment&comment=1042686 https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63748-bridgestone-mindset-golf-ball-testing-sampling-and-shot-scope-ops/?do=findComment&comment=1046248 https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/62621-forum-member-reviews-callaway-whitebox-testing/?do=findComment&comment=1020558 Link to comment
EMacK1961 Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 Before I answer that question, I would ask, "What's your best score across the board?" If you looked at your scores for each hole, over time, what's your best for that hole? Look at that for each hole and come up with a score. I'm a 24 hdcp and I did that once and came up with a best of 76. My lowest so far is a 79. I believe that a 16 hdcp could shoot par or maybe better if playing two balls for a round and if he/she played to the best number for a hole. If you try it, good luck and have fun with it. Michael.Sandoval33, William P, Dweed and 1 other 4 Quote "It's only rock and roll...but I like it." - Mick Jagger "It is not the will to win that matters-Everyone has that. It's the will to prepare to win that matters." - Paul "Bear" Bryant "If anything is worth doing, it is worth doing with all your heart." - the Buddha What's in the bag: Driver Taylormade Qi10 Standard, 3W Callaway RazrFit Extreme, 5W - Cobra Fly Z XL, Wilson D9 4 hybrid, Heat II Single Length Irons 5-SW, Snake Eyes 60' LW What's on my feet: Squarz/Under Armour Charged Draw 2 Bag Boy Quad XL Push Cart w/Bag Boy CB15 bag Where I play: Baja Country Club - Ensenada, Baja Califorinia, Mexico/Bajamar Oceanfront Golf Resort, Ensenada, Baja California, Mexico Link to comment
cnosil Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 1 hour ago, DaveP043 said: Beyond that, most players would be exhausted before the end of the round taking double the normal number of full swings! I'm not sure I would hit 2 shots every time. I know what I would consider a good shot and if I hit a good non par 3 tee shot, pitch/chip, and make the first putt I probably wouldn't hit a second. I'd probably hit 2 approach shots so it is maybe 20-25 extra full swings. buckpillar, Rob Person, Michael.Sandoval33 and 2 others 5 Quote Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: XCG7 Beta 15* w/Fujikura Fuel Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: Sacks Parente MC 3 Stripe Backup Putters: Milled Collection RSX 2, mFGP2, Futura 5W, TM-180 Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment
Javs Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 12 hours ago, BoogerJL said: What do you think a 16 hcp could shoot if he played his own 2 ball scramble? So essentially he would get a mulligan every shot. 2 drives, 2 approach shots , 2 putts etc. He would play the best of the two shoots each time, just like in a 2 man scramble. No triple max and has to putt everything out (obviously). For argument sake let’s say course plays 6400, stimp of 10 and slope rating 122 I think it depends. One what are the strengths and weaknesses of the players’s game. Are they a straight driver with decent distance? Do they hit fairly good irons and how is the short game? Since 16 over is their potential starting and even with 2 shots every time; I can only see them shooting high 70’s at best. funkyjudge, buckpillar and Rob Person 3 Quote Play like a champion today! Link to comment
thulesgold Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 I think it's a lot tougher to gain strokes back by yourself. I think getting 6 or 7 would be huge. Rob Person 1 Quote Ping Driver, Irons, Wedges, Putter. Callway Wood. Vice Pro Zero golf balls. Vessel Pro IV golf bag. Sketches Go Golf Shoes. Body by Wisconsin Cheese Link to comment
ddelino Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 I think it would surely be a fun experiment! My guess would be that it would shave 8-10 strokes off of your typical score, but once again, that’s just a guess. Rob Person 1 Quote ddelino Link to comment
Siamese Moose Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 This is something I have done. My instructor wants me to do it once or twice a year. In his words, it indicates what my current potential is as if my concentration is peak and I really grind. It's meant to be both inspiring and instructive. "See, if you bear down, this is what you're capable of right now." When I first did it as about a 24 HC, I shot 78. This year as an 8, I shot 69. It's way more shots than you guys think! Most of the gains are on and around the green for me. Especially chipping and pitching, I hit a good shot but it did something on the green that I didn't expect. I can change the way I play the next shot. My up-and-downs are doubled. BreakfastBall15, cnosil, Rob Person and 1 other 4 Quote Moose, my cat, is Siamese Link to comment
buckpillar Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 I'm thinking with the extra shots I going to say the 79 to 81 would be a good score. funkyjudge and Javs 1 1 Quote Jeff "PUTSO" Pillar [email protected] Link to comment
Javs Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 7 minutes ago, buckpillar said: I'm thinking with the extra shots I going to say the 79 to 81 would be a good score. Exactly and agree. Because no matter how many shots the same swing flaws are in play. Maybe the greatest pickup is a ball hit OB and the reload is free so that saves a stroke or two. Also around the green and putts. A chunked chip with a free replay could erase the lost shot. Lastly getting two putts each time could generate a gain. However, a 16 still has their limits. The second ball won’t be an all star. So, fully agree the best result would be high 70’s to low 80’s. funkyjudge and Rob Person 2 Quote Play like a champion today! Link to comment
buckpillar Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 2 minutes ago, Javs said: Exactly and agree. Because no matter how many shots the same swing flaws are in play. Maybe the greatest pickup is a ball hit OB and the reload is free so that saves a stroke or two. Also around the green and putts. A chunked chip with a free replay could erase the lost shot. Lastly getting two putts each time could generate a gain. However, a 16 still has their limits. The second ball won’t be an all star. So, fully agree the best result would be high 70’s to low 80’s. I've played 2 balls several times over the past couple years, it almost always turned out to be right on my handicap for 1 ball and the other would be 1 or 2 shots lower or even higher. Same swing same tendencies. Rob Person and Javs 2 Quote Jeff "PUTSO" Pillar [email protected] Link to comment
Javs Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 2 minutes ago, buckpillar said: I've played 2 balls several times over the past couple years, it almost always turned out to be right on my handicap for 1 ball and the other would be 1 or 2 shots lower or even higher. Same swing same tendencies. I agree fully. I have played the two ball scenario myself. I am scratch and still only gained a couple shots. buckpillar and Rob Person 2 Quote Play like a champion today! Link to comment
GolfSpy_BEN Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 According to the VCT, an 8 handicap can shoot even par, multiple times, with only one ball. So why not? buckpillar, TJ Hall, Rob Person and 3 others 1 5 Quote WITB: D: QI-10 core 9* Ventus Blue TR Velocore 6x 3w: Brnr mini driver 13.5 Kai Li White 70x 3h: G430 19° Tour 2/Stiff 7W: 21° Rogue ST Max LinQ 7X 5i-6i: ZX5 MKII Project X 6.0 7i-PW: ZX7 MKII Project X 6.0 50°, 54° & 58°: Glide Forged Pro P: Special Select Del Mar Ball: Tour BX mindset Bag: Ghost MGS Anyday 14 way "And so, we beat on, boats against the current, borne ceaselessly into the past." - Fitzgerald ” The woods are lovely, dark and deep, But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep.” - Frost "That you are here—that life exists and identity, That the powerful play goes on, and you may contribute a verse." - Whitman Link to comment
Javs Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 (edited) 6 minutes ago, GolfSpy_BEN said: According to the VCT, an 8 handicap can shoot even par, multiple times, with only one ball. So why not? I see what you did there and yes, I call Bullsh-t also. Especially since that handicap never moves. Edited February 26 by Javs Rob Person, buckpillar and cnosil 3 Quote Play like a champion today! Link to comment
Preeway Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 (edited) 43 minutes ago, GolfSpy_BEN said: According to the VCT, an 8 handicap can shoot even par, multiple times, with only one ball. So why not? Can you imagine how low they could go in the VCT if they did their own 2 ball scramble? 59 would be child’s play. Edited February 26 by Preeway Javs, GolfSpy_BEN, Rob Person and 2 others 2 3 Quote Driver: Aerojet LS, Ventus Blue Shaft - 6S 4 Wood: Rogue ST Max 16.5, Tensei White Shaft - 7S Utility Iron: Fli Hi 3-iron, HAZARDOUS Smoke Black Shaft - S Irons: JPX 921 Tour 4-P, Project X Shafts - Stiff 125g Wedges: 52º, 56º, 60º Putter: Ai-One 7 T CH, 34" Preferred Ball: Z-Star Diamond Pushcart: Nitron Rangefinder: Tour V5 Shift Link to comment
Dweed Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 On 2/25/2024 at 1:26 PM, thulesgold said: I think it's a lot tougher to gain strokes back by yourself. I think getting 6 or 7 would be huge. @thulesgold just a quick Welcome to the forums. Glad you joined and hope you find it as a positive experience as much as I have over the years. Quote D- Ping G 400 SFT 16*- Adams Tight Lie 19*- Adams Tight Lie 4H- Ping G 400 5-U- Ping G 400 SW- Nike 56*- Ping Glide 2 P- Sub70 004 Mallet Link to comment
Tom the Golf Nut Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 22 hours ago, GolfSpy_BEN said: According to the VCT, an 8 handicap can shoot even par, multiple times, with only one ball. So why not? Thanks for the belly laugh. Exactly why I stopped entering scores in the VCT But back to the question at hand. My feelings are a 16 handicap could shave 5 or 6 strokes. So let’s stop guessing and set up a challenge. One person 2 ball scramble challenge. Any handicap can participate. Just to see what can be done based on handicap. CFreddie, Preeway and cnosil 1 1 1 Quote Driver, TSi 1 S Flex 3 wood, Aerojet Max UST Helium Nanocore R Flex 5 wood, Aerojet Max UST Helium Nanocore R Flex 7 Wood, Aerojet Max UST Helium Nanocore R Flex 5 Hybrid King Tec MMT R Flex Irons, Tour UST Recoil 95 R Flex (6 - Gap) Wedges, Snakebite KBS Hi- Rev2.0 54* & 60* Agera 35" Ultralight 14-way Cart Bag Link to comment
Javs Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Tom the Golf Nut said: Thanks for the belly laugh. Exactly why I stopped entering scores in the VCT But back to the question at hand. My feelings are a 16 handicap could shave 5 or 6 strokes. So let’s stop guessing and set up a challenge. One person 2 ball scramble challenge. Any handicap can participate. Just to see what can be done based on handicap. I think many of us agree there is some real sandbagging which kills the spirit of a really nice event! Edited February 27 by Javs Tom the Golf Nut, Preeway and cnosil 3 Quote Play like a champion today! Link to comment
GolfSpy_BEN Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 9 minutes ago, Tom the Golf Nut said: Thanks for the belly laugh. Exactly why I stopped entering scores in the VCT But back to the question at hand. My feelings are a 16 handicap could shave 5 or 6 strokes. So let’s stop guessing and set up a challenge. One person 2 ball scramble challenge. Any handicap can participate. Just to see what can be done based on handicap. I like this idea quite a bit and we were looking for something to do during the week in between the end of the regular season of the VCT and the beginning of the tournament, so with your blessing, I'm going to steal it and promote it through the VCT for next week. cnosil, Preeway and TJ Hall 3 Quote WITB: D: QI-10 core 9* Ventus Blue TR Velocore 6x 3w: Brnr mini driver 13.5 Kai Li White 70x 3h: G430 19° Tour 2/Stiff 7W: 21° Rogue ST Max LinQ 7X 5i-6i: ZX5 MKII Project X 6.0 7i-PW: ZX7 MKII Project X 6.0 50°, 54° & 58°: Glide Forged Pro P: Special Select Del Mar Ball: Tour BX mindset Bag: Ghost MGS Anyday 14 way "And so, we beat on, boats against the current, borne ceaselessly into the past." - Fitzgerald ” The woods are lovely, dark and deep, But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep.” - Frost "That you are here—that life exists and identity, That the powerful play goes on, and you may contribute a verse." - Whitman Link to comment
Javs Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 11 minutes ago, GolfSpy_BEN said: I like this idea quite a bit and we were looking for something to do during the week in between the end of the regular season of the VCT and the beginning of the tournament, so with your blessing, I'm going to steal it and promote it through the VCT for next week. It would be good, but we all know instead of 11 birdies and even par with the 8 handicap someone with 2 balls will shoot 23 under. Yes I am saying there is serious sandbagging. I may not play next year. Edited February 27 by Javs funkyjudge 1 Quote Play like a champion today! Link to comment
GolfSpy_BEN Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Just now, Javs said: It would be good, but we all know instead of 11 birdies and even par with the 8 handicap someone with 2 balls will shoot 23 under. Yes I am saying there is serious sandbagging There will be some significant changes coming in season 3, that are being implemented to curtail some of that foolishness. It hasn’t gone unnoticed. Javs, Tom the Golf Nut, cnosil and 2 others 4 1 Quote WITB: D: QI-10 core 9* Ventus Blue TR Velocore 6x 3w: Brnr mini driver 13.5 Kai Li White 70x 3h: G430 19° Tour 2/Stiff 7W: 21° Rogue ST Max LinQ 7X 5i-6i: ZX5 MKII Project X 6.0 7i-PW: ZX7 MKII Project X 6.0 50°, 54° & 58°: Glide Forged Pro P: Special Select Del Mar Ball: Tour BX mindset Bag: Ghost MGS Anyday 14 way "And so, we beat on, boats against the current, borne ceaselessly into the past." - Fitzgerald ” The woods are lovely, dark and deep, But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep.” - Frost "That you are here—that life exists and identity, That the powerful play goes on, and you may contribute a verse." - Whitman Link to comment
Erin B Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 20 minutes ago, Tom the Golf Nut said: Thanks for the belly laugh. Exactly why I stopped entering scores in the VCT But back to the question at hand. My feelings are a 16 handicap could shave 5 or 6 strokes. So let’s stop guessing and set up a challenge. One person 2 ball scramble challenge. Any handicap can participate. Just to see what can be done based on handicap. I’m in! Preeway 1 Quote I could play golf every day and learn something new each time. Driver: Callaway Paradym TD 9* Driver- Steadfast S Jupiter 45” shaft Ping 425-6 Dot Newton tipped 45" shaft TaylorMade 11.5* Mini Driver-Steadfast S 45” shaft Hybrids: PXG 0317 17*, 19* Steadfast S Jupiter shafts, PXG 211 22*-Project X Even Flow Riptide X shafts Irons: New Level 6-PW 902PD 6.5 ProjectX IO shafts Wedges: TaylorMade MG4 50*, 52*, 56* (TW Grind) Putter: TaylorMade Truss Heal PXG Bat Attack Ping Anser Ball: OnCore VeroX Titleist Pro V1X Callaway Chrome TourX https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63746-motocaddy-m-series-carts-2024-forum-member-review/?do=findComment&comment=1042686 https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63748-bridgestone-mindset-golf-ball-testing-sampling-and-shot-scope-ops/?do=findComment&comment=1046248 https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/62621-forum-member-reviews-callaway-whitebox-testing/?do=findComment&comment=1020558 Link to comment
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