[Building My 2021 Sticks - Sub70 699/699 Pro Combo Set]

I just got back from the range, crunched some numbers and I'm very excited.

I unfortunately don't have easy access to a high end launch monitor, but I do have a good chunk of winter work with my Mevo. In anticipation of testing today, I tabulated the 5 iron averages of the past five or six range sessions with the Cobra SpeedZones. All numbers are off the same mats, using the same quality mixed range balls, at roughly the same temperatures.

I am comparing the Sub70 699 4 iron directly to the SpeedZone 5 iron. They are essentially the same loft (21 degrees for the SpeedZone, 21.5 degrees for the Sub70), the same lie angle, however the SpeedZone 5 iron is 1/2" shorter (38" vs. 38.5"). Regardless, the SpeedZone 5 iron was going to play the role of a traditional 4 iron in my split combo bag with the Maltby PTMs.

I started by hitting 10 or so warm up shots with my PTM 9 iron and then switched to the Sub70 4 iron with the MMT shaft. I needed to hit a bucket's worth of balls to have a fair comparison to the SpeedZones. In fairness to both clubs, I removed the worst shots from each data set, but ended up removing a lot more from the SpeedZone's data. I hit 15-20 balls with the Sub70 and then switched to a different club for a few and then switched back as to not get into too much of a groove.

Mevo averages from 93 shots with the SpeedZone 5 iron (KBS C-Taper 115 X-Stiff):

Ball Speed (mph)	Club Speed (mph)	Smash	Carry Distance (yds)	Launch Angle	Spin (rpm)	Height (ft)	Time (s)	Club
131.7	96.8	1.36	198.5	15.6	4742	101	6.5	5I

Mevo averages from 74 shots with the Sub70 699 4 Iron (Mitsubishi MMT 105 TX):

Ball Speed (mph)	Club Speed (mph)	Smash	Carry Distance (yds)	Launch Angle V	Spin (rpm)	Height (ft)	Time (s)	Club
135	101.4	1.33	207.3	15.2	4299	101	6.5	4I

I'm very happy with the numbers. Despite only being 1/2" longer, the Sub70/MMT combo added roughly 3 MPH ball speed, 4 MPH club speed and 9 yards of carry while maintaining all of the launch characteristics of the SpeedZone 5 iron.

Given that I have $75 already invested in this test shaft, I am now planning to go forward with the remainder of the set and will not be doing any further experimenting.

16 hours ago, B.Boston said:

Nice work Cody! Those are coming along quite nice. I like the added paint on the bottom groove.

You’ll have to do a nice post about the MMT vs C-Taper lites for me. I’m interested to hear your thoughts on the feel and performance.

I think I just saw that Rickie is rocking MMTs (I think a proto 125g) on his new butter knives.
 

If I'm not mistaken, Rickie is playing the 125 TX version while Abraham Ancer has played the 105 TX for quite some time. Since you asked about feel, here are my thoughts from today.

I am very, very impressed with the Mitsubishi MMT. At no point did I feel like the 105 TX was too much shaft for me, even toward the end of the session when I was getting very tired the shaft reacted the same way. I will be playing the set straight in through the rest of the set. There were no "weird" shots that I'd attribute to the shaft whatsoever; it's obvious the old idea that graphite isn't as "accurate" or "consistent" as steel is totally false.

The 113 gram weight is perfect for me. Very little difference in weight coming from the C-Taper Lites. I don't think I'd want to go up to the 125 weight class, but if you are someone coming from a heavier weight shaft and wanted to stay heavier in graphite, it's good to have those options. I picked up a small bit of speed, but some of that is probably attributed to the slightly longer shaft.

Imagine taking an extremely stout and stiff shaft and waggling it around. There would be no movement whatsoever that you'd feel, right? That's what the MMT feels like when you waggle it. There's no movement of the club head or butt whatsoever (at least that I can feel). It feels like it's balanced a bit toward the tip and you can really feel the club head throughout the swing. If you just picked it up off the rack you'd think there would be no way you'd load the shaft. But when you swing, it's completely different. I'm not one to really feel a shaft load well (or at least I think I'm not), but there is a really smooth load and release of the shaft moving through impact. It's almost like they married a piece of slightly tip heavy rebar with the feel of a C-Taper Lite at impact. I had very few shots that didn't find the center of the club face, something I can't say about the SpeedZone 5 iron.

[Building My 2021 Sticks - Sub70 699/699 Pro Combo Set]

1 hour ago, sirchunksalot said:

No reason to apologize for a gratuitous photo thread, we like seeing photos of new clubs. I love the Lamkin grips you paired with the shafts. They look good and I can't wait to see how you hit them. 

I really liked the regular Sonar on the SpeedZones, but didn't love the reduced taper for full shots. I have small hands and found the grip wanting to work too much into my palms. These have a more traditional taper and feel better in my hands but have a similar pattern and tack to the regular Sonars.

That the grey/black combo looks slick is just a nice bonus.

[Building My 2021 Sticks - Sub70 699/699 Pro Combo Set]

This is quickly becoming a gratuitous photo thread, but I wanted to share some shots of the 4 iron now that it is married up with the MMT and a Lamkin Sonar Tour. (Don't mind the crappy generic ferrule. I have something considerably better coming Monday. )

The MMTs swing weight out like standard steel. This is playing at Sub70's listed steel spec length of 38.5" and around D3.5/D4, the same swing weight as my Maltby PTM set I built last winter.

The MMTs jump from "S" to "TX", there is no "X" flex. I've been slowly moving to "X" flex across my irons and hybrids and seem to have decreased dispersion with the slightly stronger flexes. My 6 iron swing speed is averaging about 96 MPH on my Flightscope Mevo, so I personally feel I'm right between flexes as my transition and swing tempo are not terribly aggressive. The driving factor in moving to the TX flex is the weight at 113 grams vs. 105 grams for the stiff. I've bounced between 110-115 gram shafts for the past two seasons and wanted to stay there. 

The MMTs are available in 3-PW discrete lengths so I have the option to soft-step them one time if necessary.

 

[2020 Forum Member Review - SuperSpeed Training System]

6 minutes ago, tony@CIC said:

Interesting results. On your current workouts are you not doing the non-dominant side?

Correct. I've given up the non-dominant swings for the time being. I still do some non-dominant work with medicine balls, but not much. I've had to really taper my swinging in order to stay fresh for the gym work and the 150+ swings I take at the range on the weekend. I've also been trying to lose a few pounds throughout this (so far successfully), so I'm being careful with energy levels while working in a slight calorie deficit.

Additionally, I'm the owner of a set of sore wrists and elbows (working from home on a laptop and hitting off mats are a terrible ergonomic combo), so I've had to pace myself for that reason as well.

[2020 Forum Member Review - SuperSpeed Training System]

On 1/25/2021 at 11:37 PM, twyatt700 said:

With the sticks I could get the green up to 140, the blue I could get up to 135 and the red my top speed was 130ish.  But I could never get that to translate to the course.  I'm thinking lessons and getting a pro to work with my swing to make sure I'm efficient in my movements may be the next step, but I'm not really sure.

I had this same experience for the first two years of doing the sticks. Those numbers are eerily similar to mine across the board.

Two years ago, the first year I had the sticks, I hit 141 once with green, but never really got the blue above 125 or the red above 116. The green most of the time would be upper 120s/low 130s. I would guess most of my on course swings that year were in the upper 90s/100. And on the range my SwingCaddie confirmed that. Still, before SuperSpeed I was about 94 MPH on the SwingCaddie, so it was a bit of progress.

Last year I more consistently got the green stick to the mid 130s, blue didn't move much, and the red went up to 118-119. In addition to SuperSpeed, I went through 12 weeks of Fit For Golf's offseason program and also bought a power rack and started to lift weights consistently for the first time in my life. I switched to the FlightScope Mevo, which probably over reads club speeds a bit, but I was around 104-106 on the range with ball speeds (range balls) in the low-mid 150s. On course my average drive went up to the 250-260 mark from about 230. 

I started taking lessons in the middle of all of this, but with COVID hitting and lack of practice I had basically reverted to my pre-lesson self by April 2020.

This winter I've gone away from doing the specific protocols and recently have just been focused on two things. One, getting the red and blue clubs faster and two, swinging my driver as fast as I can both with and without balls. I have continued to lift (following Wendler's 5/3/1 now), and after my lessons in August and September feel like some things really started to click in my swing. 

The last few times out at the range I've recorded average club head speeds at 110 MPH, and have topped 160 MPH ball speed a few times. There have been a few technique changes here and there, but mostly I just feel like I'm going to swing with intent to go fast and worry about the direction later. It doesn't seem like I've actually lost any accuracy, but I know once I get out on the course I'll tighten up a bit. It's inevitable. My hope is that I get my "cruising" speed higher so that I don't need to go all out to hit a 110+ MPH number.

Lately, I've been doing (all dominant side):

• 3x Green
• 3x Blue
• 3x Red
• 3x Blue
• 3x Red
• 3x Green

Both blue and red are slowly creeping up. Today's best speeds were 139/132/123. It has been slow progress, but it's still progress.

This was a long post to say stick with it, and I recommend grabbing a lesson to see what kind of power leaks might be present in your swing. For me personally, I need to focus on a better turn and also feeling like my head stays in place on the downswing. Otherwise I get steep and flippy, which robs me both of clubhead speed and distance.

[Building My 2021 Sticks - Sub70 699/699 Pro Combo Set]

One other small cosmetic change today. I painted the bottom groove white on each of the heads as an alignment aid.

(That small hole in the paint will be unnoticeable once I get some dirt in the grooves. Still bugs me, though.)

This also showed up over my lunch hour and will be installed and curing this evening in the 4 iron, to be gripped tomorrow and demo'ed on Saturday. I'm hoping to have a more in depth post this weekend about my demo process for the shaft and what numbers I get out of it:

Cool to see the metal mesh wrapped in the tip.

[Building My 2021 Sticks - Sub70 699/699 Pro Combo Set]

4 hours ago, ncwoz said:

I'd say keep it! Might not make a huge difference, but brushed might hide future nicks a little better too.

Took your advice and went with it on my lunch break. Finished with 0000 equivalent and some metal polish. I think they look fantastic now, almost no dings whatsoever. The toe of the 7 iron has like four small pits (maybe lightly dropped on a hard surface?) and the back of the 4 iron has three small chatter marks. They are nearly invisible now and the rest look brand new.

After cleaning out the hosels with my .370 reamer and solvent, I also weighed them and they are very nicely on spec across the set. The exception is the AW, which I'm wondering is just a mistake on their site. Doesn't matter to me, I'd rather them be the same as I play the PW and AW at the same length typically, and then drop down 1/4" to my 54/58 which also play at equal lengths.

[Building My 2021 Sticks - Sub70 699/699 Pro Combo Set]

I mentioned the heads were described as in "excellent" condition. They've obviously been hit before, but there were in great shape overall with only a few minor dings. There were a few scratches on the satin finish that were noticeable, so I grabbed a set of 3M hand sanding pads today at Home Depot. I purchased pads with the equivalent grit of #3, #2, #00 and #0000 steel wool with the idea that I would start with the course pad and work down to a final polish with #0000.

I started with the most course pad and am loving the brushed finish, so I might stop there. Thoughts from the gallery? (Before is on top, after on bottom.)

[Building My 2021 Sticks - Sub70 699/699 Pro Combo Set]

5 minutes ago, ejgaudette said:

Been thinking of those MMTs a lot as well and now that Ricky is trying them out they seem to be getting some traction. I am going to practice more next season and figure graphite is on the future at these same weights so interesting to see how it goes.

I believe Ricky was playing the 125s last weekend, while Ancer has the 105s in play. 

Not that it should affect my decision making at all, but if they are good enough for them, they are certainly good enough for me. Assuming right weight and flex, that is. I'm not going to go with 125TXs anytime soon. 

[Building My 2021 Sticks - Sub70 699/699 Pro Combo Set]

7 hours ago, HardcoreLooper said:

Big fan of the Recoil 110s here.  It's all in what works for you, and they're working well for me.  I haven't loved a shaft so much since the Apex 4.

Glad to hear a vote for the Recoils.

Looking at reviews, cost and considering my past experience, I think I've narrowed my searching down to:

• Mitsubishi MMT
• UST Recoil
• KBS TGI

While I was fit for the Steelfibers, I've read (in the 110 weight especially) that they can be a pain to swingweight. The only other intriguing and widely available option I've found is the Project X Catalyst 100s, but some of the reviews of those say they play and feel like PX steel, of which I'm not a fan.

Recoil would be the cheapest option. TGI would probably be a good fit because I get along with the Tour well.

I'm currently enamored with the MMT because in the Callaway demo 7 iron, I saw increases in launch angle, height, spin and carry and it felt really nice. More muted than steel, but I could still easily know where on the face I hit the ball. Very stable, too.

[Building My 2021 Sticks - Sub70 699/699 Pro Combo Set]

23 minutes ago, bellairemi said:

Maybe you could send some of that snow up north?  You now have more on the ground than we do in TC.

We got probably three inches more than expected today. Snowy winter days are bad for the budget when I spend too much time browsing...

[Building My 2021 Sticks - Sub70 699/699 Pro Combo Set]

I'm getting pretty good at tearing clubs apart these days. Saved the basically brand new GP Tour Velvet 360s and pulled all the shafts in about 25 minutes.

Step one, complete! The shafts already have found a new home for $60, so I'm at least recouping a little of the cost of the irons.

[Building My 2021 Sticks - Sub70 699/699 Pro Combo Set]

5 minutes ago, B.Boston said:

Looks like a perfect winter project!

I was blown away by the performance of the Forged Tecs... I think you’re really going to enjoy the hollow body irons. Should be a perfect blend between the two sets!

I looked long and hard at the Forged Tecs too, but by going (lightly) used the Sub70s were $200 off the already low price. So much easier to want to experiment at that price.

[Building My 2021 Sticks - Sub70 699/699 Pro Combo Set]

1 hour ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

Are you going to snag the Mitsubishi shafts, or looking to grab a bargain there as well? Because Sub 70's sister company Diamond Tour has some interesting shaft options for irons far under the price of the MMTs.

I know the Aldila NVs get good reviews, as do Recoils. I've hit various Recoils and liked them, and I've been fit into Steelfiber i110s before by the Mizuno Shaft Optimizer.

I'm looking to stay around the 105-115 gram weight mark, which starts to limit the options a bit. MMT, OTi, Steelfiber i110cw, Recoil 110, KBS TGI all have options in that range. Prefer to stay in taper tip for constant weight and also because they are less work to build.

I did inquire with Sub70 about some custom shaft options, but they are only doing parallel tips at this time so that ruled out some of the heavier graphite options.

EDIT - I should add that I've had two separate fittings turn up that I do best in that 110 gram range so that's why I'm targeting those shafts.

[What Have You Bought Lately? (CHA - Club Ho's Anonymous)]

On 1/25/2021 at 4:33 PM, edingc said:

I'm being purposely ambiguous, as there is some work to do on my end over the next month or so, but I spent some money today on several items I'm really excited about. I wasn't planning on it, but I wasn't happy with how my bag was going to look heading into the season.

If the person in customer service was right, UPS should be dropping off the first (and arguably most important) box yet this week!

More to come... I promise. 

Started a thread over in the DIY section with my plans:

 

[Building My 2021 Sticks - Sub70 699/699 Pro Combo Set]

@Headhammer nailed it on Twitter, I'm a club ho.

My winter practice this year has revealed a few things about my bag setup. I started last season with a 5-GW set of Maltby PTMs, and thanks to #CobraConnect I spent about half of my 75-ish rounds last year playing Cobra SpeedZones. I loved the forgiveness of the Cobras, but hated the gapping in the shorter clubs, where I could go 15+ yards between irons.

I had been kicking around the idea of playing a mixed set of Cobras and Maltbys, but the idea of mixing iron brands, shaft weights and looks within a single bag just bothered me too much.

Additionally, my winter practice off of mats has been hard on my wrists and elbows. It's not uncommon for me to have a few days of achy joints after my weekly range sessions, and over the holidays when I was able to go to the heated range more often I actually experienced some significant pain in my wrists. As my longer term plan is to get a Skytrak and net for winter practice at home, I know I will be hitting a lot of shots off mats in the future. For this reason, I've been looking at moving to graphite.

Last weekend I demo'ed the newly released Callaway Apex Forged with the Mitsubishi MMT graphite iron shaft and really loved the feel. I very nearly pre-ordered a triple combo set (DCB in the 4-5 irons, Apex 6-7, Apex Forged 8-PW), but after totaling everything up, the price was too much for me to stomach.

I've long been a fan of @GolfSub70 and had been eyeing a combo set of 699/699 Pros for a while (especially after reading the MGS Forum reviews), but @GolfSpy MPRprovided a gentle reminder on Twitter of the existence of their used section, where I found an "excellent" condition set of 4-6 699s, 7-AW 699 Pros significantly marked down because they were regular flex shafts and 1" short. Being that I'm open to doing my own club work, I jumped on them and plan on doing some experimenting over the next month to settle on a shaft combo I like.

While I don't anticipate saving too much over ordering something new through a major OEM (aftermarket shafts are expensive), I'm excited to put together a set of irons that I will enjoy for hopefully at least the next two or three years.

I'm starting this thread to document the progress and hope to have everything built up within the next month or so. While we've had eight-plus inches of snow in the last 12 hours here in Michigan, I played my first round of golf last year on March 1 so the season is drawing near.

[What Have You Bought Lately? (CHA - Club Ho's Anonymous)]

OK, this one was terribly unexpected, but the price was good. Trade/re-sale value is still pretty good, too, so I'm not out a lot if it fails.

Time for a driver shootout!

Saddest thing about this purchase? Largely driven by the fact that I love how the Optifit hosels don't change the shaft/grip orientation. Having a mis-aligned shaft/grip drives me nuts on my Cobra (I know, I could pull and re-orient, but...).

[What Have You Bought Lately? (CHA - Club Ho's Anonymous)]

I'm being purposely ambiguous, as there is some work to do on my end over the next month or so, but I spent some money today on several items I'm really excited about. I wasn't planning on it, but I wasn't happy with how my bag was going to look heading into the season.

If the person in customer service was right, UPS should be dropping off the first (and arguably most important) box yet this week!

More to come... I promise. 

[GolfSpy AFG’s Speed & Swing Odyssey]

8 minutes ago, Getoffmylawn said:

Thanks Cody.  Any downside?  Why have you gotten away from it?

No downsides that I can think of. Only reason I haven't used it as much as the others is that I've been trying to increase my blue and red speeds. Right now my "speed work" has been:

• 3x Green Stick Right-Handed
• 3x Blue Stick Right-Handed
• 3x Red Stick Right-Handed
• 3x Blue Stick Right-Handed
• 3x Red Stick Right-Handed
• 3x Green Stick Right-Handed

Then I do two or three sets of Mike's Speed Series from his GolfStrong workout in the FFG app. It incorporates a lot of what he's discussed with single arm swings, quicker/long backswings, etc. 

I hit 124 with the red club yesterday so I've seen some progress as that is usually 118-119. No ball driver swings have gone up a few MPH too, but I'm still sitting at about 110 average on my FlightScope Mevo with range balls, topping out at 112-113 on 2/15 shots Saturday morning.

[Tour Striker Planemate]

13 hours ago, PAndaemonium89 said:

Just read through the thread and learned a lot. I think I have an answer to why I’m missing right, but want to hear some input... awesome info from @RickyBobby_PR

 

If this is really the long band, I believe it is connected too far up on the shaft which may cause some issues. I usually try to place it near the balance point of the iron.

For example, it would be really tough to keep tension on the band during the takeaway without doing some manipulation with the long band connected so close to the hands.

[GolfSpy AFG’s Speed & Swing Odyssey]

19 minutes ago, Getoffmylawn said:

Any C Club owners have any feedback? 

I haven't used mine for a bit, but work it in occasionally between the regular sticks. It definitely will work on the hand/arm speed, and I feel a pronounced "release" with it as well. 

As far as speed comparisons go, I've found it to be 5-8 MPH faster than my green club, sometimes more, sometimes less.

[How'd you play?]

12 hours ago, yungkory said:

+4 75 (40/35)

6/13 FiR

8/18 GiR

28 putts

First ace today! #17, 121y PW that dunked into the cup. Best part was the group in front was part of our group, and waved us on since we were playing greenies. Heard it hit the stick from the tee box, and every one on the green yelled back that it went in. Super exciting, honestly never thought it would happen. Somehow managed to par the 18th after to finish the round.

Congrats, and one helluva round!

[What/How Did You Practice Today?]

32 minutes ago, Shapotomous said:

In my world temps in the teens and a good turn are mutually exclusive!!  

Yeah, I had much more luck with working on the turn during my lesson indoors at a balmy 70-ish degrees. When it's that cold, even with the heater in the stall, it takes me a good 40-50 balls just to get loose!

[What/How Did You Practice Today?]

50 minutes ago, rbsiedsc said:

Man you make me want to jump on this. You gaming the stiff or xs?

Stiff. Nice and smooth feeling shaft, although I'm finding I get along pretty well with the feel of all of the Mitsubishi shafts I've tried.

[What/How Did You Practice Today?]

10 minutes ago, Lacassem said:

I hope you do! What’s the ball flight looking like? Pretty consistent?

Yeah, likes the left side but it's not really hook biased. I will probably just need to aim down the right side of wherever I want it to go which will insulate against my bad miss which is a pull left.