2023 Rules Changes

[ballhawk]

 

[DaveP043]

13 hours ago, ballhawk said:

The new Rules are available on the USGA website,

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=1&subrulenum=2

along with some other publications explaining most of the major changes. I'm just home from a USGA/PGA Workshop, and would be happy to help try to answer any questions anyone has about the new Rules.

[GolfSpy_APH]

Is there a coles notes for someone who may just want the most influential highlights that would affect the amateur golfer?

[Jim Shaw]

I have a question to the thousands of golfers on this site. 

what percent of the golf conversation, say, after your round in the clubhouse, involve rules?

Clarification of a rule or rules or "I saw "X"'s ball move and they put it back and didn"t count a stroke" or something like that?

Just curious because as I started playing provincial or national championships, rules conversations are very few and far between.

[GolfSpy_APH]

2 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

I have a question to the thousands of golfers on this site. 

what percent of the golf conversation, say, after your round in the clubhouse, involve rules?

Clarification of a rule or rules or "I saw "X"'s ball move and they put it back and didn"t count a stroke" or something like that?

Just curious because as I started playing provincial or national championships, rules conversations are very few and far between.

For me not that much, however I do have a few new golfing friends who are relatively new to the game and with how it works here they need a hdcp or someone with one to basically look after them to make sure they are following the rules so we have had several discussions in that situation, however not much else. 

[TylorJudd]

1 hour ago, Jim Shaw said:

I have a question to the thousands of golfers on this site. 

what percent of the golf conversation, say, after your round in the clubhouse, involve rules?

Clarification of a rule or rules or "I saw "X"'s ball move and they put it back and didn"t count a stroke" or something like that?

Just curious because as I started playing provincial or national championships, rules conversations are very few and far between.

Like @GolfSpy_APH said, new players have cropped up this year and that's where it comes up. I always remember playing on local tours here, people wouldn't discuss rules because they thought it gave them some advantage they could utilize later on. Oh how pretenscious this sport can be. If the golf course isn't saying something, I don't really care. I had a guy in front of me in October playing in his work socks.. took off his steel toe boots and walked into the pro shop, then to tee #1. Then just to have a single sneak between tee times. I don't know if people in general have time for rules anymore hahah

[DaveP043]

2 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Is there a coles notes for someone who may just want the most influential highlights that would affect the amateur golfer?

Go here:

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/2023-rules-of-golf/2023-rules-resources.html

There are a couple of links explaining the changes.

1 hour ago, Jim Shaw said:

I have a question to the thousands of golfers on this site. 

what percent of the golf conversation, say, after your round in the clubhouse, involve rules?

Clarification of a rule or rules or "I saw "X"'s ball move and they put it back and didn"t count a stroke" or something like that?

Just curious because as I started playing provincial or national championships, rules conversations are very few and far between.

I play with a group of players, probably 40 of us, who all try to play within the rules.  When we have an question on the course, we commonly will look up the correct rule when we're done.  Now that I've taken Rules Workshops and educated myself more deeply, I'd say its really rare if I play a round of golf without being asked about something rules-related, whether during play or afterwards.  When you get to more significant events, most players believe (sometimes incorrectly) that they know the rules well enough.  The thing is, even the best experienced rules officials recognize that there's always something to learn, to understand better.

[cnosil]

4 hours ago, Jim Shaw said:

I have a question to the thousands of golfers on this site. 

what percent of the golf conversation, say, after your round in the clubhouse, involve rules?

Clarification of a rule or rules or "I saw "X"'s ball move and they put it back and didn"t count a stroke" or something like that?

Just curious because as I started playing provincial or national championships, rules conversations are very few and far between.

Maybe 2%.  I play with a couple of guys that bet between themselves and we occasionally get into rules discussions and in my golf league we occasionally do to make sure everyone is playing in accordance with the leagues local rules.  

[tony@CIC]

7 hours ago, Jim Shaw said:

I have a question to the thousands of golfers on this site. 

what percent of the golf conversation, say, after your round in the clubhouse, involve rules?

Clarification of a rule or rules or "I saw "X"'s ball move and they put it back and didn"t count a stroke" or something like that?

Just curious because as I started playing provincial or national championships, rules conversations are very few and far between.

I don't ever recall a conversation after a round on the rules. Generally any discussion happens on the course. I may bring it up if there is a question - more to get agreement then ask for clarification. 

[ballhawk]

Is it just me, or is there a modicum of common sense starting to evolve with these new rule changes.........

[DaveP043]

17 minutes ago, ballhawk said:

Is it just me, or is there a modicum of common sense starting to evolve with these new rule changes.........

The 2019 Rule "rebuild" did a great job of making the rules more consistent and less complicated.  The 2023 rules have relatively few changes, but they plug some of the weak points in the previous edition.  There has always been consistent logic within the rules, but the language and the structure made it a lot more difficult to discern.

[DaveP043]

As some probably know, I've gotten pretty deeply into the Rules over recent years, so the 2023 changes brought very few surprises.  For those who are what I'd call "every day players", what were you surprsed at?  Which changes do you think will impact you the most?  

[Blueberry_Squishie]

@DaveP043 Question I have about interpretation of 22.6 and 23.8:

 

In summary, are the new rules:

• You can't stand behind your partner to get an indication of putting line.
• You can stand beyond the hole to watch your partner putt.
• If it's your opponent, there are no restrictions to where you stand. There would be etiquette issues with standing too close behind them.

 

Would this summary be accurate or am I missing something? 

[DaveP043]

3 hours ago, Blueberry_Squishie said:

@DaveP043 Question I have about interpretation of 22.6 and 23.8:

 

In summary, are the new rules:

• You can't stand behind your partner to get an indication of putting line.
• You can stand beyond the hole to watch your partner putt.
• If it's your opponent, there are no restrictions to where you stand. There would be etiquette issues with standing too close behind them.

 

Would this summary be accurate or am I missing something? 

Thats generally accurate, and has not changed for quite a long time.  The details changed a little in 2019, and again a little in 2023, but neither your caddie nor your partner nor his caddie could stand behind you when you made a stroke for a long time.

Edit to add, I just reviewed these Rules, and the NEW part is the "intent" of the player, and the automatic penalty for the player who's standing in the wrong place to learn.  Under the previous Rules, the penalty applied to the "putter" (the Player is the one making the Stroke) for allowing someone to stand there who's not allowed to be there.  An additional penalty was applied to the Partner (the observer) if the breach helped the Partner's play, i.e. if the Partner learned about the line.  Now its directly stated that if the Partner stands there to learn something, the Partner is penalized in addition to the Player.  I don't see this as a real change, just making the Rule more explicit.  It also coincides with the last part of 10.2b(4) that says "This Rule does not prohibit the player from getting help by having a person other than the player’s caddie stand in the restricted area to help track the flight of a ball."

Edited December 11, 2022 by DaveP043

[fixyurdivot]

These make sense .  Particularly the no penalty for the ball moving after being dropped and back in play.

2023ROG5KeyChangesInfographic.pdf (usga.org)

[fixyurdivot]

I just looked through the rest of the rule changes.  I'm unfamiliar with this one anyway, but I'm not quite getting what really changed?  Also, how is it determined the "out of turn" play presents an advantage?  

Our men's league here doesn't seem to fret this rule as many play out of turn (ready golf) since pace of play is a major focus to assure all groups make it through during daylight.

[cnosil]

12 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

I just looked through the rest of the rule changes.  I'm unfamiliar with this one anyway, but I'm not quite getting what really changed?  Also, how is it determined the "out of turn" play presents an advantage?  

Our men's league here doesn't seem to fret this rule as many play out of turn (ready golf) since pace of play is a major focus to assure all groups make it through during daylight.

It probably has to do with conspiring to show the play a line or how a putt breaks.   Example,  two buddies are playing and their putts are on basically the same line.  The player closer to the hole is out of contention so  they both agree to let the player closer to the hole play first which gives the player farther away an advantage.   I am guessing that that the "agreement in place" is something that has to be interpreted by the rules committee to understand what was said and how the play proceeeded.

[fixyurdivot]

15 minutes ago, cnosil said:

It probably has to do with conspiring to show the play a line or how a putt breaks.   Example,  two buddies are playing and their putts are on basically the same line.  The player closer to the hole is out of contention so  they both agree to let the player closer to the hole play first which gives the player farther away an advantage.   I am guessing that that the "agreement in place" is something that has to be interpreted by the rules committee to understand what was said and how the play proceeeded.

Yes, I was guessing it applied more to putting sequence/situations but I presume it also applicable to all shots taken out of turn (distance to pin)?

[cnosil]

On 12/10/2022 at 11:10 AM, DaveP043 said:

  For those who are what I'd call "every day players", what were you surprsed at?  Which changes do you think will impact you the most?  

Interesting that they have banned the use of self standing putters to help the player determine line or setup.  I had heard that this was going to happen,  but didn't realize it was incorporated.   Wonder how that will affect the few companies that market this type of putter.

I guess I can use green reading material to help determine how a green slopes on approach shots?  I just can't use them prior to a putt.

On the ball moved by natural forces.   What is the scenario of I place the ball and it doesn't initially move.   I go to get a club and the ball then moves because of natural forces.  I am supposed to replace the ball, but what if it will not stay in that spot on subsequent placements?

How particular is this:  "Regardless of area of the course, a player is not allowed to set an object down to show the line of play or to help with taking stance."   Does this mean a player is no longer allowed to place their club down behind the ball and stand inline with the club between themselves and the ball to adjust the club to be pointing correctly and then without moving the club maneuver around and take their stance?    Is a player even allowed to ground their club to help with taking their setup?   Basically how restrictive is this rule?

 

 

[fixyurdivot]

1 hour ago, cnosil said:

Wonder how that will affect the few companies that market this type of putter.

Considering that the vast majority of players and playing groups (even leagues) don't follow all of the rules anyway, I'm guessing the change won't sink them.

After todays round the rules change topic came up and one of the guys said he had heard they changed the ball in a fairway divot - allowing a drop no closer to the pin.  Everyone got excited... then I dropped the proverbial "turd in the punchbowl" .

[DaveP043]

12 hours ago, cnosil said:

Interesting that they have banned the use of self standing putters to help the player determine line or setup.  I had heard that this was going to happen,  but didn't realize it was incorporated.   Wonder how that will affect the few companies that market this type of putter.

Yeah, you'll still be allowed to use these putters, you just cannot set them in place and walk away.  This is consistent with the prohibition on setting anything down to assist in lining up your shot.  I can still see players walking away from the putter on the practice green, training themselves to align it properly, and then using the same putter "correctly" during play.

12 hours ago, cnosil said:

I guess I can use green reading material to help determine how a green slopes on approach shots?  I just can't use them prior to a putt.

You can still use green-reading material on the green, as long as it fits the size and scale and other requirements listed in Clarification 4.3a/1.  You could conceivably use larger or larger-scale green maps from elsewhere on the course, but who would really do that?  I certainly wouldn't bring two different sets of greens maps with me, for fear I'd bring out the "fairway map" when I'm on the green, and have to penalize myself.

12 hours ago, cnosil said:

On the ball moved by natural forces.   What is the scenario of I place the ball and it doesn't initially move.   I go to get a club and the ball then moves because of natural forces.  I am supposed to replace the ball, but what if it will not stay in that spot on subsequent placements?

Assuming you put a ball into play, not on the Putting Green, under Rule 14, whether you place it or drop it, and it comes to rest.  Later, it moves, due to natural forces.  You play it as it lies, UNLESS it moves to a different "Area of the Course" or OB.  I'm sure you know this, there are only 5 Areas:  The Teeing Area (for the hole you're on), the Putting Green (for the hole you're on), Bunkers, Penalty Areas, and the General Area (everything else).  So if your (placed or dropped) ball is moved by Natural Forces from the rough (General Area) to a Penalty Area, you replace it.  If it rolls from the rough into a bush, you play it from the bush.  And if a ball won't remain in place, you find the nearest location where the ball WILL remain at rest in the same Area of the Course, Rule 14.2e.

12 hours ago, cnosil said:

How particular is this:  "Regardless of area of the course, a player is not allowed to set an object down to show the line of play or to help with taking stance."   Does this mean a player is no longer allowed to place their club down behind the ball and stand inline with the club between themselves and the ball to adjust the club to be pointing correctly and then without moving the club maneuver around and take their stance?    Is a player even allowed to ground their club to help with taking their setup?   Basically how restrictive is this rule?

For this refer to Clarification 10.2b(3)/1.  You are still allowed to set your club behind the ball, even align it from behind the ball and then walk around to take your stance.  8.1b is (I believe) completely unchanged, it allows you to "Ground the club lightly right in front of or right behind the ball."

Edit to add, I enjoy trying to explain the Rules when questions arise.  Not only that, but this is great practice for me, in two days time I'll be taking the USGA 100-question Rules Exam, trying to better my scores from this past Spring.

Edited December 13, 2022 by DaveP043

[cnosil]

29 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

 

Edit to add, I enjoy trying to explain the Rules when questions arise.  Not only that, but this is great practice for me, in two days time I'll be taking the USGA 100-question Rules Exam, trying to better my scores from this past Spring.

I appreciate your responses and thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.  

[DaveP043]

22 hours ago, cnosil said:

I appreciate your responses and thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.  

Something I should mention, I always recommend that folks look at the Rules for themselves to verify any Rules advice they get.  Every single Rules Official that I've met, even the most experienced, have tales about the times they made mistakes.  I'm not nearly so experienced, I know I'll make mistakes.  Sure, trust me to some extent, but verify it by reading the Rules for yourself.

[Mark In Land O Lakes]

On 12/9/2022 at 9:31 AM, Jim Shaw said:

I have a question to the thousands of golfers on this site. 

what percent of the golf conversation, say, after your round in the clubhouse, involve rules?

Clarification of a rule or rules or "I saw "X"'s ball move and they put it back and didn"t count a stroke" or something like that?

Just curious because as I started playing provincial or national championships, rules conversations are very few and far between.

I'd say about 0%.  I play in a league of senior golfers; most in mid-late 60's, but many in 80's and even 90's.  You are always allowed to "clean & place", if needed.  You are allowed to improve your lie in the fairway, so for example you can move the ball to get it onto a tuff a grass.  You are allowed to move your ball if you are in danger of hitting a root or rock.  Basically, we want to enjoy the game and not get hurt. 

[Jim Shaw]

Well Mark, your reply brought a smile to my face this morning, in a positive way, enjoy your game and not get hurt, kindof sums up what many many golfers and their golfing buddies should do, the pure, uncomplicated, way to play this great game... 

[ballhawk]

On 12/13/2022 at 7:30 AM, DaveP043 said:

.  If it rolls from the rough into a bush, you play it from the bush. 

Now this defies my original statement of some common sense entering into play. 

[Claude Whitlock]

On 12/12/2022 at 7:32 PM, cnosil said:

It probably has to do with conspiring to show the play a line or how a putt breaks.   Example,  two buddies are playing and their putts are on basically the same line.  The player closer to the hole is out of contention so  they both agree to let the player closer to the hole play first which gives the player farther away an advantage.   I am guessing that that the "agreement in place" is something that has to be interpreted by the rules committee to understand what was said and how the play proceeeded.

The key word is STROKE play. You do not have a partner so the field must be protected.

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, ballhawk said:

Now this defies my original statement of some common sense entering into play. 

Well, its consistent with what would happen if you had never lifted your ball at rest, and your ball is later moved by Natural Forces.  To me, that level of consistency actually IS common sense. The problem with "common sense" is that each of us defines it differently.  

While I think that the result in the Fowler and Hoffman situations was excessively punitive, its is so rare that I'm not sure I think the change was justified, it adds complications to the Rules.  For a Ball moved by Natural Forces, we now have 3 different treatments:

 When it moves after being lifted and replaced on the Putting Green, replace if it moves at all  

When it moves after being put into play on the course, replace ONLY if it is moved to another Area of the Course

Any other time, play it from its new position.  

I believe we'll see players misunderstand the Rule, even though its written very clearly.

[DaveP043]

12 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

Well Mark, your reply brought a smile to my face this morning, in a positive way, enjoy your game and not get hurt, kindof sums up what many many golfers and their golfing buddies should do, the pure, uncomplicated, way to play this great game... 

While I am admittedly a "rules geek", I agree completely.  Play any way you like, have fun, don't get hurt.  But if you ARE going to compete, know the basics of the Rules and follow them.

[cnosil]

27 minutes ago, Claude Whitlock said:

The key word is STROKE play. You do not have a partner so the field must be protected.

Not sure what you are trying to clarify.  yes it is stroke play and in stroke play the general convention is farthest from the hole plays first but it isn’t a requirement like in match play.   A player that is closer to the hole can play first.  The rule has to do with an agreement made to give another player in the field an advantage.  A player could state that they need another minute to evaluate the shot or to get a rules official and the player closer to the hole could play first without penalty in stroke play.