2023 Ryder Cup - Official Thread

[Preeway]

12 minutes ago, LICC said:

JT played just ok. 

Zach’s captains picks went 6-12-4 by my count. That tells all right there. The old buddy network instead of picking by merit led to another failure. 

Couldn’t disagree more. You are completely disregarding how well Europe played when you say that. Koepka played very well as did JT. Only real let down was Burns and I think it’s fair to say he was only there because of Scheffler. I don’t think for a second it mattered who was chosen this year. Europe was on a mission. 

[Preeway]

15 minutes ago, LICC said:

JT played just ok. 

Zach’s captains picks went 6-12-4 by my count. That tells all right there. The old buddy network instead of picking by merit led to another failure. 

Couldn’t disagree more. To say that completely disregards how well Europe played. Koepka and JT both played well enough to justify being a captains pick. The only one I’m really let down by is Burns and it’s fair to say he was only there because of Scheffler. Who also was disappointing to say the least. 

[LICC]

31 minutes ago, Preeway said:

Couldn’t disagree more. To say that completely disregards how well Europe played. Koepka and JT both played well enough to justify being a captains pick. The only one I’m really let down by is Burns and it’s fair to say he was only there because of Scheffler. Who also was disappointing to say the least. 

JT was 20th is strokes gained during the tournament. 
Koepka was 1-1-1 and part of the team that got smashed 9-7. 
There were 3-4 players better by far this year than the ones picked. That is 1/3rd of the team. Of course it would have made a difference. 

[Preeway]

All you did was again point out how dominant team Europe was. It’s fair to say that Bradley should have gone in stead of Burns. But to argue against JT and Koepka is just silly. 

[LICC]

1 minute ago, Preeway said:

All you did was again point out how dominant team Europe was. It’s fair to say that Bradley should have gone in stead of Burns. But to argue against JT and Koepka is just silly. 

JT was terrible all year and wasn’t good in the tournament. Other players were much better than him this year. 
 

[Preeway]

Totally agree. He didn’t earn a spot, he was given one. And he didn’t play poorly. Take his play over Scheffler for sure. And Scotty earned his spot. 

[revkev]

1 hour ago, Preeway said:

Couldn’t disagree more. You are completely disregarding how well Europe played when you say that. Koepka played very well as did JT. Only real let down was Burns and I think it’s fair to say he was only there because of Scheffler. I don’t think for a second it mattered who was chosen this year. Europe was on a mission. 

I think it mattered but not enough.  I agree that JT played fairly well.  Let's face it Ricky and Jordan were absolute flame outs.  In regards to the US (they can't control how well the Euro's played) I will continue to maintain that not playing for 5 weeks was a huge mistake.  We will never know if that would have made enough difference.  I've heard about people being sick.  Okay, it's not fun to be sick and play golf in 85 degree heat.  But let's remember that Phil Simms won a Super Bowl MVP with the flu and a 103 degree fever. 

 

So I will try it again, would players take 5 weeks off before a major?  This year and many years the Euro's approach the Ryder Cup like a major, the US team never seems to.  The best players on the European Team seem to have the ability to get the most out of their partners, the US top players, never seem to - even when they win.

 

On a side note, I got so sick of those commercials that I'm wondering if they weren't the cause of my COViD.  I honestly can't remember what was being advertised and they were the same ones - ad nauseum.  There was one that was incredibly offensive to me - it featured Tony Finau and Annika.  It started by saying they were giants of the game - I love Tony Finau but he does not belong in the same breath as Annika, consider that he could not even make the US Ryder Cup team.  Calling him a "giant" along side of her - that was insulting!

[Preeway]

I think there were numerous factors they led to our demise and taking over a month off was one of them. Two to three weeks, maybe. But not 5 weeks. And people will spend the next couple of weeks second guessing many aspects of this event. Especially the captains picks. But Hovland, Rory and Rahm were not going to be denied. And so much good play from the rest of the European team. Zach was overmatched as captain for sure but in the end you have to acknowledge good play. Now to start saving up to go to Bethpage in two years. 

[LICC]

10 hours ago, Preeway said:

I think there were numerous factors they led to our demise and taking over a month off was one of them. Two to three weeks, maybe. But not 5 weeks. And people will spend the next couple of weeks second guessing many aspects of this event. Especially the captains picks. But Hovland, Rory and Rahm were not going to be denied. And so much good play from the rest of the European team. Zach was overmatched as captain for sure but in the end you have to acknowledge good play. Now to start saving up to go to Bethpage in two years. 

The top US players played just as good as Rahm, Rory and Hovland. But when a third of your team doesn’t deserve to be there based on playing performance, you lose big. 
 

And taking five weeks off is ridiculous if you are serious about wanting to win. 

Edited October 2, 2023 by LICC

[StrokerAce]

not sure how many of you have a sub to The Athletic but this is a pretty good recap/breakdown - https://theathletic.com/4918458/2023/10/01/ryder-cup-analysis-europe-win-marco-simone/

A few parts that stood out to me...

At Whistling Straits, Scottie Scheffler surprised many with his 4&3 singles win over Rahm, then the world No. 1. Two years later, with Scheffler in the top spot, Rahm got his rematch, this time scratching out half a point. The match marked the first time in history that the last two Masters champions faced off in Ryder Cup singles. Scheffler finished the week 0-2-2, becoming the first sitting world number one player to not win a Ryder Cup match. Last year at Quail Hollow, he became just the second world number one to not win a match in a Presidents Cup. Scheffler had negative strokes gained total for the week, losing more than 3 1/2 shots on and around the greens.

Hatless once more, Patrick Cantlay again won in singles, improving to 4-0-0 in that format in the two U.S. professional team Cup events. Cantlay was one of three Americans to earn multiple points this week – the Europeans had seven different players do it.

This week saw the Europeans eviscerate the U.S. in foursomes, 7 to 1, tying the record for the most lopsided performance in that format in a single Cup. In the last three Ryder Cups contested on European soil, the home side has outscored the Americans by a ridiculous 20 to 4 sum in that format. Ten consecutive Ryder Cups have been won by the side that earned more points in foursomes.

While the U.S. away drought justifiably gets the most headlines, Europe hasn’t won much on foreign soil recently, either. The “Miracle at Medinah” 4-point singles comeback in 2012 by Europe is the lone example of a road team winning the Cup since 2006.

[GolfSpy_APH]

1 hour ago, LICC said:

The top US players played just as good as Rahm, Rory and Hovland. But when a third of your team doesn’t deserve to be there based on playing performance, you lose big. 
 

And taking five weeks off is ridiculous if you are serious about wanting to win. 

I know you are normally pretty set in your thinking. All the power to you. I find it hard to believe the saying the top US players played just as well as Rahm, Rory and Hovland. Max was the top US player for points and easily their start player going all 5 sessions. 

Taking all the time off I agree with you that should have been reconsidered. Maybe they will adjust the dates to line up better? 

Bottom line the Euro team outplayed them out of the gate and held onto the lead through the single getting the points they needed. 

[RwsGolf1]

1 hour ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

I know you are normally pretty set in your thinking. All the power to you. I find it hard to believe the saying the top US players played just as well as Rahm, Rory and Hovland. Max was the top US player for points and easily their start player going all 5 sessions. 

Taking all the time off I agree with you that should have been reconsidered. Maybe they will adjust the dates to line up better? 

Bottom line the Euro team outplayed them out of the gate and held onto the lead through the single getting the points they needed. 

I believe the biggest issue was not the picks but the 5 weeks off.  They should have set up matches against each other rather than sitting at home watching the European players compete on TV.

[GolfSpy_APH]

3 minutes ago, RwsGolf1 said:

I believe the biggest issue was not the picks but the 5 weeks off.  They should have set up matches against each other rather than sitting at home watching the European players compete on TV.

Fair, it was a long season for all the PGA players taking some time off is understandable. 5 weeks may be much, but I doubt they went cold turkey.

I should say I do think competing once would have been good. No doubt. Ok the flip side as someone who works often 50 plus days on a row or more with no real day off and had two small kids taking a long break when I do in May helps me come back rejuvenated and energized.

[Rygolf32]

On 9/29/2023 at 9:01 PM, mardukes said:

I was kind of keeping count.  Commercials outnumbered televised shots by 3 to 2 during the morning session.  In the second session we were treated to "playing through" commercials.  I.e. even recording doesn't help.

And, is it me or is the quality of NBC's broadcast such that you can't see the balls land on the green?

I saw a great post from someone on Twitter after the 1st day -

 

"If we didn't learn anything else from day 1 of the Ryder Cup, it's that Derek Jeter will do anything to get back to his supermodel wife and kids." 

 

[Rygolf32]

So here is what I don't understand about how the US in the alternate shot matches...I'd love it if someone better than me or that gets it can explain.

 

I've played in plenty of match play tournaments and the one general rule I go by is risk/reward...I don't simply want to hand a hole away so it's always 'is going for the green in two worth it' or 'should I just play my 3 iron to the fairway even though I'll be 40-50 yards behind him'. I've only played a few alternate shot tourneys and this is the general rule we used, it seemed to work OK as we were in every hole without having to just give them away.

 

Why in the hell do these guys not just do that during alternate shot? Putting your partner in a position to be 190 away from 12" tall rough when they could be 230 away from the fairway seems like an unnecessary risk to me. Especially if you are hitting the ball like most of the US did during the alternat shot matches. I just don't get it...If I'm hitting the ball terribly off the tee with driver, I'll smack my 3 iron to the middle of the fairway all day just to keep scoring well, why can't these guys do the same? Especially given that everyone knows why the course was set up the way it was, to punish the US for NOT FINDING THE FAIRWAY!

 

Is it ego or am I missing something else?

[chisag]

55 minutes ago, Rygolf32 said:

I've played in plenty of match play tournaments and the one general rule I go by is risk/reward...I don't simply want to hand a hole away so it's always 'is going for the green in two worth it' or 'should I just play my 3 iron to the fairway even though I'll be 40-50 yards behind him'. I've only played a few alternate shot tourneys and this is the general rule we used, it seemed to work OK as we were in every hole without having to just give them away.

 

Why in the hell do these guys not just do that during alternate shot? Putting your partner in a position to be 190 away from 12" tall rough when they could be 230 away from the fairway seems like an unnecessary risk to me. Especially if you are hitting the ball like most of the US did during the alternat shot matches. I just don't get it...If I'm hitting the ball terribly off the tee with driver, I'll smack my 3 iron to the middle of the fairway all day just to keep scoring well, why can't these guys do the same? Especially given that everyone knows why the course was set up the way it was, to punish the US for NOT FINDING THE FAIRWAY!

 

Is it ego or am I missing something else?

... I think mostly just golf. Thank goodness the silly Ryder Cup is over. Soooooo embarrassing to be down 10-3 and have some Yahoo yelling "USA!!! USA!!!" as soon as contact is made. But the killer for me is anyone that has watched Match Play tournaments know any player can be beaten on any given day. Top seeds are often beaten by bottom seeds and one of the main reasons the PGA TOUR doesn't like them as too often the top draws are gone by the weekend. So any "poor coaching" is completely offset by the very foundation of playing golf because every round is different. "Favored" to win singles is just laughable because each teams "worst" player can defeat each teams "best" player for one round. Tiger loved to say "that's why we play tournaments for 4 days" when someone relatively unknown is at the top of a Major leaderboard on the first or even the 2nd day. I have to think that if any of the teams played each other in both Foursomes and Fourballs 10 times they would probably come out close to 5 - 5. 

... I enjoy the RC for good golf but not the Europe vs USA "competition". The fake fist pumps after making a putt on Thursday on the 5th hole?   I did really enjoy Tommy Fleetwood's insanely difficult chip in and he looked like "Isn't that what I am supposed t do?" very cool and subtle reaction and then the open arms without any histrionics was pretty awesome. 

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, Rygolf32 said:

 

Is it ego or am I missing something else?

Data Analytics 

[LICC]

4 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

I know you are normally pretty set in your thinking. All the power to you. I find it hard to believe the saying the top US players played just as well as Rahm, Rory and Hovland. Max was the top US player for points and easily their start player going all 5 sessions. 

Taking all the time off I agree with you that should have been reconsidered. Maybe they will adjust the dates to line up better? 

Bottom line the Euro team outplayed them out of the gate and held onto the lead through the single getting the points they needed. 

Homa, Cantlay, Clark, Koepka, and Harmon went a combined 9-7-5 I believe. The top players (except Sheffler) held their own and did well. 

[Stuka44]

2 hours ago, Rygolf32 said:

Why in the hell do these guys not just do that during alternate shot? Putting your partner in a position to be 190 away from 12" tall rough when they could be 230 away from the fairway seems like an unnecessary risk to me. Especially if you are hitting the ball like most of the US did during the alternat shot matches.

The answer is, the reliance on stats, and numbers.   The Mark Brodie "strokes gained" fallacy, especially for "MATCH PLAY".   100% correct especially when as you stated the course was specifically set up and the rough allowed to grow, to almost guarantee, not being able to get on the green from the rough at 180 (an 8 iron).  Why would you want to hit a hybrid to 200, and hit 6 iron from fairway, and have a putting contest.   If I had been Zach Johnson, I would have been snapping drivers, on the first tee for all the U.S. Players! 

[Bang60]

Yeah I didn't see much percentage play from the USA, but I think the real killer was 5WEEKs with NO Tournament golf..

[Rygolf32]

2 hours ago, cnosil said:

Data Analytics 

 

6 minutes ago, Stuka44 said:

The answer is, the reliance on stats, and numbers.   The Mark Brodie "strokes gained" fallacy, especially for "MATCH PLAY".   100% correct especially when as you stated the course was specifically set up and the rough allowed to grow, to almost guarantee, not being able to get on the green from the rough at 180 (an 8 iron).  Why would you want to hit a hybrid to 200, and hit 6 iron from fairway, and have a putting contest.   If I had been Zach Johnson, I would have been snapping drivers, on the first tee for all the U.S. Players! 

 

I guess these are my point...I get the data and analytics part for normal golf. Those make perfect sense for bomb and gouge courses or if you are hitting it normally/well but we weren't hitting it straight, why not adjust mid round?

 

Far be it from me to tell pros how to play but it just seemed like we kept burying ourselves in rough to the knees with no shot at birdies while the Euros were piping every fairway. I just didn't understand it but again, I'm far from a pro so I have no idea. I guess from a mental side, it would do good to start hitting fairways/greens and winning holes, then go back to the driver and bombing.

 

Just very frustrating to watch as a fan (and I'm sure even worse as a player)...

[cnosil]

51 minutes ago, Rygolf32 said:

 

I guess these are my point...I get the data and analytics part for normal golf. Those make perfect sense for bomb and gouge courses or if you are hitting it normally/well but we weren't hitting it straight, why not adjust mid round?

 

Far be it from me to tell pros how to play but it just seemed like we kept burying ourselves in rough to the knees with no shot at birdies while the Euros were piping every fairway. I just didn't understand it but again, I'm far from a pro so I have no idea. I guess from a mental side, it would do good to start hitting fairways/greens and winning holes, then go back to the driver and bombing.

 

Just very frustrating to watch as a fan (and I'm sure even worse as a player)...

The Euros didn't seem to be taking different clubs off the tee; the Americans are just not that great from tee to green.   Hitting less club off the tee does not guarantee hitting more fairways and results in longer shots that would also miss the green and end up in the rough.    Like it or not,  this is how golf is played now and how it was played by the best golfers of the past.

[revkev]

8 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

I know you are normally pretty set in your thinking. All the power to you. I find it hard to believe the saying the top US players played just as well as Rahm, Rory and Hovland. Max was the top US player for points and easily their start player going all 5 sessions. 

Taking all the time off I agree with you that should have been reconsidered. Maybe they will adjust the dates to line up better? 

Bottom line the Euro team outplayed them out of the gate and held onto the lead through the single getting the points they needed. 

Completely agree - I don’t see anyway that the top 3 US players played as well as the top 3 Euros. And I’m not saying that US would have won had they not taken 5 weeks off. Euro earned that victory, they were the better team. From the get go I thought these teams would be even on a neutral course everyone playing well. 

[GolfSpy AFG]

2 hours ago, Stuka44 said:

The answer is, the reliance on stats, and numbers.   The Mark Brodie "strokes gained" fallacy, especially for "MATCH PLAY".   100% correct especially when as you stated the course was specifically set up and the rough allowed to grow, to almost guarantee, not being able to get on the green from the rough at 180 (an 8 iron).  Why would you want to hit a hybrid to 200, and hit 6 iron from fairway, and have a putting contest.   If I had been Zach Johnson, I would have been snapping drivers, on the first tee for all the U.S. Players! 

Strokes Gained is hardly a fallacy, and what you’re describing wasn’t how the Americans or Europeans played because it isn’t good strategy.  
The PGA Tour average drive is 299.8 yards; we’ll call it 300.  The average 3-iron distance ranges from 212 - 265, so for arguments sake the midpoint of that range is 239 yards. That’s a 60 yard difference.  From 175-200+, the PGA average GIR is 53% with an average proximity to hole of 34 feet.  From 125-150, within that 60 yard difference range, the average GIR IS 69% with an average proximity of 23 feet.

Winning strategy is not giving up a 16% GIR advantage and signing up to 33% longer putts. 

 

[revkev]

Did anyone catch the story about Xander’s dad? I would reiterate that I don’t think it’s fair that people are making 100’s of millions of dollars for this event and the players get nothing. I’m all in on covering the expenses (which means reasonable salaries for organizers) and give the rest to mutually agreed upon charities. Then we’d have an event that was truly for the love of the game.

Any bets on that happening? 

[fixyurdivot]

10 hours ago, StrokerAce said:

not sure how many of you have a sub to The Athletic but this is a pretty good recap/breakdown - https://theathletic.com/4918458/2023/10/01/ryder-cup-analysis-europe-win-marco-simone/

A few parts that stood out to me...

At Whistling Straits, Scottie Scheffler surprised many with his 4&3 singles win over Rahm, then the world No. 1. Two years later, with Scheffler in the top spot, Rahm got his rematch, this time scratching out half a point. The match marked the first time in history that the last two Masters champions faced off in Ryder Cup singles. Scheffler finished the week 0-2-2, becoming the first sitting world number one player to not win a Ryder Cup match. Last year at Quail Hollow, he became just the second world number one to not win a match in a Presidents Cup. Scheffler had negative strokes gained total for the week, losing more than 3 1/2 shots on and around the greens.

Hatless once more, Patrick Cantlay again won in singles, improving to 4-0-0 in that format in the two U.S. professional team Cup events. Cantlay was one of three Americans to earn multiple points this week – the Europeans had seven different players do it.

This week saw the Europeans eviscerate the U.S. in foursomes, 7 to 1, tying the record for the most lopsided performance in that format in a single Cup. In the last three Ryder Cups contested on European soil, the home side has outscored the Americans by a ridiculous 20 to 4 sum in that format. Ten consecutive Ryder Cups have been won by the side that earned more points in foursomes.

While the U.S. away drought justifiably gets the most headlines, Europe hasn’t won much on foreign soil recently, either. The “Miracle at Medinah” 4-point singles comeback in 2012 by Europe is the lone example of a road team winning the Cup since 2006.

Interesting summary.  I still like the home and away format and hope that does not change.  IMO the parity between the EU and US has simply been getting closer and closer as the years roll along.  I also feel that the EU teams have WAY more team unity and spirit than the US.  It's the David vs. Goliath story and the motivation that goes along with that.

[Shapotomous]

Are there any stats from the ryder cup on fairways hit (better yet would be dispersion) and GIR for comparison between the two teams?  

Did anyone ever get an explanation from zach johnson on the strategy discussion with spieth on i think it was the 16th tee in the saturday afternoon round?  Why did he switch him from driver to 3w and was he really trying ro reach the green with that club?

[GolfSpy AFG]

1 minute ago, Shapotomous said:

Are there any stats from the ryder cup on fairways hit (better yet would be dispersion) and GIR for comparison between the two teams?  

Did anyone ever get an explanation from zach johnson on the strategy discussion with spieth on i think it was the 16th tee in the saturday afternoon round?  Why did he switch him from driver to 3w and was he really trying ro reach the green with that club?

When he was asked ZJ said he didn’t direct him to switch to 3W, just told him that everyone pulling driver was ending up in the rough and struggling to get up and down.  

[Shapotomous]

55 minutes ago, Getoffmylawn said:

Strokes Gained is hardly a fallacy, and what you’re describing wasn’t how the Americans or Europeans played because it isn’t good strategy.  
The PGA Tour average drive is 299.8 yards; we’ll call it 300.  The average 3-iron distance ranges from 212 - 265, so for arguments sake the midpoint of that range is 239 yards. That’s a 60 yard difference.  From 175-200+, the PGA average GIR is 53% with an average proximity to hole of 34 feet.  From 125-150, within that 60 yard difference range, the average GIR IS 69% with an average proximity of 23 feet.

Winning strategy is not giving up a 16% GIR advantage and signing up to 33% longer putts. 

 

I think strokes gained stats should be recalculated to account for courses with shin deep rough versus the normal pga tour setup.  Maybe look at us open stats as a comparison to how this course was set up?

I dont know what the difference might be but i think it is a more valid comparison.

[Shapotomous]

3 minutes ago, Getoffmylawn said:

When he was asked ZJ said he didn’t direct him to switch to 3W, just told him that everyone pulling driver was ending up in the rough and struggling to get up and down.  

Well that is an indirect directive to not hit driver isnt it?!?!  That is the message i would get it if my team captain told me that.  He didnt seem to take his time to commit to the shot after their discussion.  

ZJ was probably wishing he had Bryson on the tee to hit a towering 4iron onto the green!