JBones Swing Analysis

[JBones]

After the feedback that MBP got, I decided to post up my swing. It's not a great video (didn't have anyone to help, had to use a bench). This is a 9I and fwiw, I flushed it. A couple things I do notice is that on takeaway, I push my hands away from my body before swinging; I think I do this to try to keep from getting to far inside, which actually causes me to get farther inside. I also come out of my posture nearing impact and my pelvis gets closer to the ball.

 

Analysis welcome.

 

[GolfSpy WD]

Dude, your swing is insanely on plane.

[JBones]

Dude, your swing is insanely on plane.

Why thank you, sir. I think the problems lie within the manipulation I have to do to get on plane, as well as the pelvis moving towards the ball. This was a pretty good swing here. My miss is off the toe, when I really move my pelvis in and come way up out of my stance.

[Jgolf]

You have a very solid swing, and a high swing speed which should set you up very well for the new season. I don't want to mess anything up, but, because you asked, here are my thoughts.. (and as always please feel free to take or ignore as you wish)

 

Your address position into takeaway looks top notch and on plane. You mention that problems arise when you manipulate your swing to get it on plane, and in that vein I would advise you to look at the second part of your backswing where you appear to emphasize a single plane before correcting at the top. This could be ingrained and in that case ignore what i'm about to say, but I think you might be well served to follow more of a sean folley doctrine and lift the club up at this stage (wrist cock) come off the primary plane and ease the transition into the top of your backswing. (if you make this part of the swing more vertical it should help with the down swing issues below and allow you to compress the ball better if you work on it. A visual:

 

 

 

On the down swing you have a pronounced out to in path which starts in the transition. In the stop photo below the club shaft bisects your shoulder as compared to mid bicep. (See adam scott for comparison) This continues the under and over swing path which may be the cause the occasional weak/toe shot.

 

 

 

 

Coming into impact (just to clarify my out to in point) it looks like the club is above your primary swing plane line and the shaft and hands have seperated both from this line and from your body. This is a similar issue to MBP. If your arms fail to sinc up properly you may have a large number of off days where the swing doesn't cooperate.

 

 

 

I would also mention that again like MBP as your hands move out your body straightens. There have been further thoughts on this in that thread so I won't go on and on, but I will say that this can again lead to incorrect contact and is placing undue stress on your body.

 

 

 

Possibly as a side effect of this standing up motion you also stop your hips. You have a great sequence from the top, but that stops here leaving you to recover after contact to finish as you do (but that's after contact...)

 

Notice how below I can only see 1 pant pocket, and how there is very little air under your back foot...:

 

 

 

As a contrast of swing path and turn I again give you Adam Scott:

 

 

 

Finally I'll just mention that it looks like you begin to chicken wing... It's hard to tell from the video but it might deserve a look.

 

 

 

 

Again let me just say that these are picky and that you have a great swing as is. Please don't screw it up, but I do think you can find ways to improve. If anything is unclear please let me know.

 

~Jay

[Paul S]

Jay, I really like your analyses of both of the recent submissions. I'm going to try to post one soon as well. I have the video from Golftec, though it's already been analyzed and I'm making the adjustments. I have a few of the same issues as MBP and JBones, and it appears that we're all around the same handicap. Thankfully it's pretty easy for me to implement the changes quickly; though getting them to stick will take more practice. As soon as I get a chance though, I'll post a video and we can see if it's an improvement upon the Golftec video I'm about to post (if I can figure out how).

 

Again, excellent insight, I look forward to reading more!

 

Paul

[JMiller]

I always like to read what other people have to say about something before I open my mouth in these situations. You almost always get a mixed bag of posts, some of them being accurate and others being pretty damn far off from the truth.

 

This video is really really dark, so seeing the positions and what is going on is going to be very difficult. Again counting clicks of the right arrow starting when the club first starts moving.

 

The Takeaway / Backswing Note there might be one click i missed in the start but I'm close enough in count

~ clicks 1 - 5, are outside the line just a hair like you said.

~ clicks 6 and 7 start coming up the plane really well and you get into a good position with the shaft pretty much parallel to the ground.

~ clicks 8 to 11 are perfect one-plane moves, I figured "oh nothing to see here one-plane looking good".

 

Then it gets interesting

~ Clicks 12 to 14 the arms start to really lift and keep swinging.

>> You end up in a two-plane arm position not sure if that was the intentions.

 

The Downswing

~ Clicks 15 to 18 your hips rotate to start the downswing.

>> I can't see the shaft in-between your two arms at this point so my guess is that it's still straight up your right arm and a bit stuck behind you at this point.

 

~ Click 19 (impact) your hips push in-towards the ball and hands flip the head to release it.

>> Do you struggle with hitting blocks and hooks?

 

The Follow through

~ I was able to get one frame where I saw the head rolled way over after impact, some evidence of a flip to save the shot.

 

 

~ When the hands / arms vanish behind the body I would normally see the club head start popping out near the left shoulder with a full good release. I see nothing at that point, then the next frame i see the massive chicken wing that jgolf pointed out.

 

~ Even thought it is well past impact you look like you got the big reverse C at the finish (would need to see a clean Face on View to confirm) which would put a lot of strain on your back long term.

 

~ That chicken wing has to be putting wear and tear on your body in some way that's the only reason I am even addressing it.

 

 

If you can get up a lighter video that I can see details just a hair better I might be able to give better feedback.

[JMiller]

You got two major options to sort of match the sequences of backswing to downswing:

1) change the backswing to a one-plane swing (stop the rotation / arm swing at frame 11) just get your wrist set and fully loaded at that point

 

2) have a lateral slide like Nicklaus in the downswing with little hip rotation.

 

Given that Adam Scott works with Butch Harman and has a Hybrid swing plane his down swing sequence would be different then both the one-plane swing and two-plane swing.

 

Jonathan Byrd is a good example of the modern one-plane swing or Ben Hogan. Jack Nicklaus is the obvious choice for a two-plane but you can also look at Dustin Johnson for example.

[Jgolf]

Good points jmiller and great articulation. The switch in planes is what I was trying to get at in the first photo. Jbones if you could take a front view and better quality dtl video it would help. For example, on the frame that jmiller has above I wasn't sure if the flip/bend was a camera effect... and accordingly said nothing.

 

Golf is a funny game, and the swing is a very unnatural motion. In attempting to ingrain a feel it is impossible to not make mistakes. This is why I love video, as it shows you what you are unable to feel.

 

(And Jmiller as stupid as this may sound I had no idea that you could go frame by frame through videos. This was something that I've strugled with for a while now! Thank You! (and using the frames as a reference is great))

 

~Jay

 

 

[JMiller]

jgolf, yea it's pretty simple. Just pause the video and as long as the page or player like quicklime / youtube is "in-focus". The right arrow will step it forward one frame, the left arrow will step it backwards one frame (roughly anyways). So I just count the number of clicks I make to get to a given point in the swing.

 

For example 11 clicks is 11 clicks of the right arrow to step the video to that point.

[JMiller]

By no means am I saying with my comment of some things are far from the truth that it has happened in this thread. It happens more with golf announcers and other media in explaining a swing. Even the player themselves a lot of times are wrong about what they are really doing.

 

A players FEEL is a lot different from the REAL of what truly is happening. One perfect example is Steve Stricker describing his putting stroke as Straight Back Straight Through (SBST). He might feel that's what his shoulders do, however the putter head if you look at video goes from inside to inside in the stroke on a slight arc.

[JBones]

Great stuff guys, thanks. JM, my misses are blocks and hooks. I very rarely hit slices. I have never felt that chicken wing, but I did notice it in this video. I'll try to get a couple more videos up tomorrow.

[JMiller]

Great stuff guys, thanks. JM, my misses are blocks and hooks. I very rarely hit slices. I have never felt that chicken wing, but I did notice it in this video. I'll try to get a couple more videos up tomorrow.

 

I only asked that because i figured with hip rotation to start the down swing you would get "stuck" / "trapped" with the club behind your body in the downswing. The only thing that you can do from a "stuck" / "trapped" position is flip the head into impact. When you are a little late you end up with a block right. When you are a bit early you end up with a hook.

 

This happens because at the top of your swing you are in a two-plane position with the arms. Hip rotation doesn't allow the arms to drop into the slot in front of the body properly. hip rotation to start the down swing is a one-plane move. This move can create a lot of power but it is also highly dependent on timing. WE want to eliminate timing as much as possible in a swing to make for consistency into impact. Which would result in more control.

 

So you have two options to hit the ball more consistently and be able to work the ball right to left & left to right.

 

1) Work on the backswing being a one-plane position at the top. (See Paul's swing thread for one-plane advice)

>> This would match your current hip rotation in the down swing. Use J Byrd as a swing model watch what he does in creating leverage and simple movements.

 

2) Work on the downswing having all lateral slide with the hips and little rotation to start the downswing.

>> This would match your current backswing arm position at the top, look at some Nicklaus videos for hip slide examples face on

 

Which ever you pick DO NOT work on both option 1 and option 2. It is either one or the other. I think changing the backswing positions is a bit easier then changing the downswing sequence personally but it's entirely up to you what feels better.

 

Mixing sources of motion is a disaster for consistency of the swing, It is likely to make you a worse golfer then what you already are when you start mixing source of motion between the backswing position and the downswing.

[JBones]

Alright, JM, just to make sure I'm understanding you about the backswing with the picture below. On the left I am at the top of the swing and on the right it's the last frame before I start "lifting". You would like to see me stop where I am on the right with a little more hinge? When I'm playing my best, my swing stops in about the same place as in the right picture. I call that a 3/4 swing, but I think I'm starting to realize that it's MY full swing and going farther than that just gets me in trouble. Thanks.

 

[JMiller]

JBones

 

You want roughly the wrist set of the left image, with the arm plane / position of the right image. If you were to stop your swing at the right image the shaft is just a bit laid off for where your arms are at.

 

Here is an image of J Byrd's top of the backswing:

 

 

Just feel like the backswing is all rotation and the shoulders carry the arms to the top without lift. Make sure to get a full wrist set by time you can't turn anymore. You look pretty well loaded on the right leg so you shouldn't get into the over swing.

 

If you feel like you like to lift a little we might have to talk about the Hybrid-swing plane on down the road.

If you find the arms feel more conferable in the two-plane position then we start talking about changing the downswing.

 

 

Really the important part is that you match the backswing sequence to the proper downswing sequence. You like to rotate the hips hard starting the downswing so you might be better served converting to a one-plane backswing. That's sort of why I was suggesting it since most the moves you already have in the backswing are good one-plane moves.

[JBones]

Now I have homework for the day.

 

I'll work on it for a few days and revisit with new videos.

 

Thanks for the advice.

[JMiller]

No problem, I do it as a hobby mostly. I'm not a Class A PGA Professional or Certified Instructor in any way. I just love golf and spend entirely too mcuh time expanding my knowledge of golf in general. Studying swings is a lot more fun as each swing is a little different.

 

I am not a person that will ever tell someone a method is wrong and they need to break down their entire swing and rebuild it. I just look for the MAJORITY of the motions that match to a swing model then start tweaking based on that.

 

For you, the takeaway and most the backswing was one-plane all the way, you just got some weird arm lift going to the finish of the backswing. I looked at your downswing and it is a rotational downswing sequence (which matches a one-plane swing). You made my job pretty damn easy all I have to do is point out getting the left arm flatter at the top of the backswing in line with the shoulder plane roughly and you should show a good amount of improvement. With any new backswing position timing might be an issue in the downswing to start, but It won't take you long to FEEL how to hit shots again without flipping.

 

If you do it right, you should be able to hit the 9 shots of golf that I like to talk about pretty easily. You will also have a pressure "go-to" shot. I think for a lot of one-plane swingers that would be a low draw. Here are the 9 shots of golf you would ever need to hit, most of the time you have a natural trajectory and shape the rest are specialty shots. Out of the 9 the High draw and low fade are the hardest ones.

High Fade   | High Straight   | High Draw
Medium Fade | Medium Straight | Medium Draw
Low Fade    | Low straight    | Low draw

 

 

 

As for the swing model. Obviously it can be done but you are not Tiger Woods and don't do this for a living. Most AMs have limited practice time so it's best to try and get them to a point where the swing is a bit more consistent and they are having more fun playing golf.

 

Speaking of Tiger and his swing methods:

Tiger (Before butch) ~ Two-plane swing

Tiger (With Butch) ~ Hybrid-plane swing

Tiger (with Hank) ~ Hybrid-plane swing (different takeaway and downswing positions)

Tiger (with Foley) ~ One-plane

 

You can put yourself into whatever model you want to with enough hard work, but most the time people will lean one way or another naturally.

[JBones]

So I'm going back over a lot of videos I've taken and I get to that "perfect" one plane position, then start "lifting" while I start turning at the same time, which is what I think causes me to come out of my stance to clear from getting "stuck". I have ALWAYS fought letting my arms keep going, after my shoulders stop turning.

 

JM, you're much smarter than I, is that close to an accurate assessment?

 

As far as the wrist hinge, I have fractured both my wrist and I struggle with hinge, I have to take a really strong grip, just to get what little hinge I have. That being said, I have never had a lack of power, although I did have a lot more power before the injuries.

[JMiller]

JM, you're much smarter than I, is that close to an accurate assessment?

I don't know about that, I just find education / knowledge powerful and try to learn new things every day for my career and hobbies. What good is knowledge if you don't share it?

 

So I'm going back over a lot of videos I've taken and I get to that "perfect" one plane position, then start "lifting" while I start turning at the same time, which is what I think causes me to come out of my stance to clear from getting "stuck". I have ALWAYS fought letting my arms keep going, after my shoulders stop turning.

Stuck is a term used to describe the club head position in the down swing. Maybe you have heard it called "trapped" or "deep" they mean the same thing. The hands and/or club is back behind the body instead of in front of it when the hands get to the thigh high position. If the club is deep your athletic side kicks in and tosses the head at the ball (flipping it) into impact to save the shot. For you this is created because you have a conflict of motion here between the backswing top position and the downswing sequence.

 

WE need BOTH the backswing AND downswing source of motion to match the SAME model, yours currently is:

 

Backswing = Two-plane (arm lift)

Downswing = One-plane (hip rotation)

 

I picked the one-plane model to give you a advice for because your swing looks very rotational. The issue probably isn't hinge of the wrists so to speak rather then forearm rotation. Twist the right palm so that it is facing you in the right image, like it would be in the left image but lower.

 

Color Key:

~ Blue is shoulder plane

~ Green arm positions

~ Yellow hand position.

NOTE: it could be a little different it's sort of hard to illustrate it in one-dimension when the golf swing is in three dimensions.

 

I just want you to rotate the wrists and forearms a little sooner in the swing to get the hands under the shaft at this point. It probably eliminate the arm swing to the two-plane if you just rotate the wrists / forearms a little. I get the felling you sub-consciously know you don't have leverage in the position bellow because the hands are not under the shaft.

 

Rotate forearms / wrists instead of lift into the top position. You are really close to a very good swing, just a minor tweak really. If you get the hands under the shaft in the position bellow I think you stop the arm swing. Something like roughly this, sorry my illustrations blow, doing the best that I can.

[JMiller]

If this hurts your wrists or you continue to swing with the arms I am human I do make mistakes on what might fix the issue, I might just give you advice on how to make the proper downswing from your current backswing position.

[JMiller]

The way Tiger explains how he addresses the ball, starting at about the 6:30 mark is me to a tee. That would be my exact definition of a "feel" player; not just feeling how far to swing for a certain distance, but just feeling what your body is telling you to do in general. Now, if I can just get the damn swing down.

You are almost there, you could change the image I have line on from the one plane to a slight bit more of lift and wrist rotation and bang you are in a hybrid plane perfectly.

[JBones]

You are almost there, you could change the image I have line on from the one plane to a slight bit more of lift and wrist rotation and bang you are in a hybrid plane perfectly.

I sent you another video, I think I'm getting closer to that hybrid plane......or at least it looks like it to me.

[JMiller]

Yup you are in a hybrid position which is fine, I gave some feedback in the PM where you sent me the video. If you want we can transfer that conversation here, up to you.

[JBones]

Yup you are in a hybrid position which is fine, I gave some feedback in the PM where you sent me the video. If you want we can transfer that conversation here, up to you.

Here's a pic that shows the top of the backswing; one big thing I notice on this is that my left thumb is under the shaft, which is something we spoke about. Again, thanks for all the feedback.

 

[JMiller]

I had replied in the PM, we are getting closer I really like the wrist position and club head position relative to the arm, we could do without the flying right elbow if possible.

[JMiller]

I had posted these videos to a PM with JBones, and some additional information about his swing specifically. I am going to use Charl Schwartzel as my prime example, he is a Hybrid plane guy and I found a couple good videos of him swinging and illustrating the sequence properly.

 

Swing Analysis:

 

Some Swings on the range:

 

If you are trying to learn to proper sequence of the down swing in a Hybrid plane backswing then pay attention to the part in the first video where they have it face-on

 

~ slide weight to the left center/ back left of the foot

~ allow the hips to rotate right after the slide this will pull the shoulders with it

>> at this point 80% the work is done and all with your lower body.

~ The shoulders, arms, hands, wrists all unwind in that order after into impact and extend through the imapct.

 

This would also help MBP with his swing probably.

[JMiller]

I have been slacking here lately, my apologizes have been working on somethings in my own game. How is is going JB, I know we have bounced a few PMs back and fourth figured I would get an update in your thread.

[JBones]

It's going pretty well, thanks. I've taken a few videos that weren't good enough quality to upload, but I did notice something interesting. I videoed swings with every club. I have a hybrid swing with driver-7I and a one plane swing 8I-LW.

 

I've also almost completely eliminated the hand lift at the top of the swing, which has in turn removed the slight over the top move I had. I over the last couple weeks, I have eliminated the miss left.

[JMiller]

Well here is the main issue with two sequences of motion:

One-Plane

Rotation back no arm lift.

Hips rotate hard all the way through the swing with really no lateral slide.

 

Hybrid Plane

Rotation back with slight arm lift.

Hips laterally slide towards the target a little THEN they rotate.

>> Lateral slide counters the slight arm lift.

 

If you have two true sources of motion for different clubs then you are more prone to having conflicts because the body will get confused. Conflicts would be things like the following that would cause for inconsistent ball striking:

 

One-plane backswing + Hybrid downswing = steep / chop down into the ball. It might end up with fat shots or topped shots.

Hybrid backswing + one-plane downswing = stuck / flip into impact.

>> Getting stuck will end up with either a flip into impact or the shoulders rotating open creating a outside to inside tilt.

 

Which one feels better, pick that model and stick to your guns on all clubs it makes it a lot easier to figure out what the true issue is when you only have a single model to go by. It will also give you more conviction in your swing when things go wrong.

 

 

A Hybrid swing might look like a 1 plane swing at 3/4 of the way back so I'm not 100% sure if it was a true full swing with the 8-LW or just a shorter Hybrid backswing.

[JBones]

I Hybrid swing might look like a 1 plane swing at 3/4 of the way back so I'm not 100% sure if it was a true full swing with the 8-LW or just a shorter Hybrid backswing.

My eye isnt trained enough to pick up the difference, but this could very well be the case. I'll try to get some good video with a 7i and 8i, for you to analyze.