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Should a spectator be allowed to call in a rule violation?

Spectators calling in penalties  

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  1. 1. Should a spectator be allowed to call in a violation of the rules of a sporting event?



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So when they amend the rule again, Ryu should have an asterisk next to her title? 

Because it will eventually happen. There is doubt that the 2 shot penalty for signing incorrectly will be amended or changed in the upcoming years. It is only fair seeing as she signed for the correct score at the time. Agreed on by the scorer, her and her playing partners.

I love golf, but the rules can be an issue sometimes. And sadly they can also be interpreted differently depending on the official/ person. See US Open 2016

 

I love golf but I've never found them to be an issue. 

They are pretty clear. Point one, she never signed for a correct score - the "at the time" excuse does not apply, simply because breaches of the rules only happen in real time. The fact that a card was signed does not alter the fact. You and I could be reviewing evidence some two weeks later and it's still a breach, even if the event has long finished.

For the tournament itself, the breach was recognised and penalty applied before it's conclusion - so the outcome cannot be in any question afterwards.

Point two, rules are not open to interpretation - they are clear on how and when they should be applied. That is not to say the wrong decision can't be made, but the correct ruling is always there to be applied in the correct manner - it just needs the right evidence to be present to make that decision.

From what I have seen of the incident - and given the timeframe of when the evidence came to light - everything the tournament organisers and the ruling bodies did was 100% correct.

The 2016 US Open was the same - only that was captured before DJ signed for his card - which proved to be immaterial anyway.

Nobody said you have to like the decision made, or indeed agree with the logic used to reach that decision, but you have to respect and agree with the rules of golf. If you don't, you're not playing golf. If you're playing golf and you're thinking a rule doesn't apply or you might disagree with a decision, then you have every right to appeal, but you have zero right to alter the rules of golf to suit your circumstances.

Having said that, the ruling bodies themselves are not immune to making mistakes. The obvious parallel with Lexi-gate would probably be Bobby Locke's 1957 Open win:

 

Locke had failed to properly replace his ball after marking on the 72nd green, and proceeded to putt out. This had been confirmed through newsreel footage provided to the R&A after the trophy presentation. The rules at the time made no provision for a two shot penalty, thus Locke's win could have been overturned through disqualification. However, the Championship committee did not enforce the disqualification rule, citing "equity and spirit of the game" as overriding factors in sustaining the posted result.

 

I'm pretty sure that equity an spirit are alive and well in todays game, but the difference in todays society is that is so much more at stake in winning and losing and sports men and women are no strangers to legal, contractual and ethical obligations every time they tee it up.

​Sure, the committee could have used the Locke example to make a decision in the same spirit for Lexi, but the political mushroom cloud that would have blown up as a result of this would be seen and heard around the world - not least from the remaining competitors who would pretty promptly say: "dude - where's my money?"

And consequently they applied the most logical and conservative (and correct) decision.

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"...it's a lot better to let the official ruling bodies to decide the outcome."

 

Exactly. Which is why spectators should not be calling in rules violations.

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Absolutely not the thing that truly makes these sort of things unfair is there could be other people doing the same thing but they aren't on video because they are outside the top 10

 

 

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I love golf but I've never found them to be an issue. 

They are pretty clear. Point one, she never signed for a correct score - the "at the time" excuse does not apply, simply because breaches of the rules only happen in real time. The fact that a card was signed does not alter the fact. You and I could be reviewing evidence some two weeks later and it's still a breach, even if the event has long finished.

For the tournament itself, the breach was recognised and penalty applied before it's conclusion - so the outcome cannot be in any question afterwards.

Point two, rules are not open to interpretation - they are clear on how and when they should be applied. That is not to say the wrong decision can't be made, but the correct ruling is always there to be applied in the correct manner - it just needs the right evidence to be present to make that decision.

From what I have seen of the incident - and given the timeframe of when the evidence came to light - everything the tournament organisers and the ruling bodies did was 100% correct.

The 2016 US Open was the same - only that was captured before DJ signed for his card - which proved to be immaterial anyway.

Nobody said you have to like the decision made, or indeed agree with the logic used to reach that decision, but you have to respect and agree with the rules of golf. If you don't, you're not playing golf. If you're playing golf and you're thinking a rule doesn't apply or you might disagree with a decision, then you have every right to appeal, but you have zero right to alter the rules of golf to suit your circumstances.

Having said that, the ruling bodies themselves are not immune to making mistakes. The obvious parallel with Lexi-gate would probably be Bobby Locke's 1957 Open win:

 

Locke had failed to properly replace his ball after marking on the 72nd green, and proceeded to putt out. This had been confirmed through newsreel footage provided to the R&A after the trophy presentation. The rules at the time made no provision for a two shot penalty, thus Locke's win could have been overturned through disqualification. However, the Championship committee did not enforce the disqualification rule, citing "equity and spirit of the game" as overriding factors in sustaining the posted result.

 

I'm pretty sure that equity an spirit are alive and well in todays game, but the difference in todays society is that is so much more at stake in winning and losing and sports men and women are no strangers to legal, contractual and ethical obligations every time they tee it up.

​Sure, the committee could have used the Locke example to make a decision in the same spirit for Lexi, but the political mushroom cloud that would have blown up as a result of this would be seen and heard around the world - not least from the remaining competitors who would pretty promptly say: "dude - where's my money?"

And consequently they applied the most logical and conservative (and correct) decision.

The rules official fallowing DJ's group ruled there was no penalty yet it was overturned. Wasn't this man the head of the rules committee? So there is interpretation to different rules. In that situation the USGA thought they would flex their muscles and "make the right call" when there is nothing more than speculation on either side. Its a straight up guess one way or another whether he caused it to move or not. 

It has been pretty widely agreed upon that had this been another PGA event and not a USGA run one, there would have been no penalty issued because DJ's word would have been taken instead of the educated guess of a guy who wasn't even around. 

 

You mention the political mushroom cloud that would've blown up. You don't think there is already one? People weren't happy about this. Still aren't. 

 

For another instance of rules being interpreted differently by different people. Google Jack Nicklaus rules controversy.  

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It should be just like any other sport, the officials and/or players need to call it when it happens and if they don't then it doesn't get called. 

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NO, once the score card has been signed that should be it. To assess 4 shot penalty a day later is ridiculous.

The fans should be out of it. No other sport that I know of allows this. Redo the 4 th quarter of a superbowl due to a fan calling in on a blown call.

I'll probably be in the minority on this.

 

 

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NO, once the score card has been signed that should be it. To assess 4 shot penalty a day later is ridiculous.

The fans should be out of it. No other sport that I know of allows this. Redo the 4 th quarter of a superbowl due to a fan calling in on a blown call.

I'll probably be in the minority on this.

 

 

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No other sport? I'm sure Lance Armstrong, Ben Johnson and most of the Russian Olympic team are on your side too. 

I won't go as far as saying her actions were those of a cheat, but sh*t sticks for a long time - and regardless of how "fair" we or anybody else thought it was at the time, nobody can escape their destiny if their actions are called out. 

A lot of you seem to think that the scorers hut is some kind of safe house where anyone inside is exempt from scrutiny simply because their card has been signed. Think again. 

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No other sport? I'm sure Lance Armstrong, Ben Johnson and most of the Russian Olympic team are on your side too.

I won't go as far as saying her actions were those of a cheat, but sh*t sticks for a long time - and regardless of how "fair" we or anybody else thought it was at the time, nobody can escape their destiny if their actions are called out.

A lot of you seem to think that the scorers hut is some kind of safe house where anyone inside is exempt from scrutiny simply because their card has been signed. Think again.

I don't remember a fan calling in to request Lance Armstrong and the others requesting a blood test. Blood tests at the end of those sports is common.

Not the same.

 

 

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I don't remember a fan calling in to request Lance Armstrong and the others requesting a blood test. Blood tests at the end of those sports is common.

Not the same.

 

 

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Of course it is the same -  in that the penalty was applied retrospectively. Regardless of what the breach of each sport(s) respective rules were, the penalty was applied after the event. If you ask me, the ruling bodies and anyone who calls in a breach probably did Lexi a favour - because nobody would want to be called a cheat after winning would they? Just ask Lance.

Just as blood tests or anything similar are quite common at the end of some sports, so is the review of evidence after golf rounds - and it's been that way at least since records began. 

The whole point is that no sport is beyond reproach retrospectively for their conduct, actions or adherence to their rules - and the R&A/USGA ensures that it remains this way for golf. I have no problem whatsoever in which manner they collate, review and apply their rules in professional tournaments. 

Anyone who does have a problem with it clearly has something to hide.

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Of course it is the same -  in that the penalty was applied retrospectively. Regardless of what the breach of each sport(s) respective rules were, the penalty was applied after the event. If you ask me, the ruling bodies and anyone who calls in a breach probably did Lexi a favour - because nobody would want to be called a cheat after winning would they? Just ask Lance.

Just as blood tests or anything similar are quite common at the end of some sports, so is the review of evidence after golf rounds - and it's been that way at least since records began. 

The whole point is that no sport is beyond reproach retrospectively for their conduct, actions or adherence to their rules - and the R&A/USGA ensures that it remains this way for golf. I have no problem whatsoever in which manner they collate, review and apply their rules in professional tournaments. 

Anyone who does have a problem with it clearly has something to hide.

I guess literally every tour player I've heard interviewed on the subject has something to hide then? Because NONE of them think that a fan should be able to call in a penalty from their couch and affect the event in which they are not playing or governing. 

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I guess literally every tour player I've heard interviewed on the subject has something to hide then? Because NONE of them think that a fan should be able to call in a penalty from their couch and affect the event in which they are not playing or governing. 

 

Clearly, by some of the comments on here and by those quoted by some tour players, breaches of rules are quite commonplace. No shame in that, because everybody makes mistakes. The problem is when they are not mistakes - when they are deliberate actions. Some have called out as saying that improper marking of the ball is "rife" on tour. I tend to agree - especially when you consider the amount of money at stake and how that encourages greed. 

I've lost count of the number of times I've seen deliberate breaches and when they get called out, they either completely deny any knowledge of it or ignore it. If there is any way to discourage or lessen this trend among pros, let alone weekend amateurs, then I'm all for it. 

If that just so happens to be someone watching the event remotely, then I see absolutely no difference whatsoever than being called out by their own playing partner. The fact that the playing partner didn't witness or notice the act has no bearing on the fact that a breach occurred. 

Maybe we should rename this thread: "Should a player be allowed to make a deliberate breach and get away with it?" because that is what most are saying.

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Maybe we should rename this thread: "Should a player be allowed to make a deliberate breach and get away with it?" because that is what most are saying.

 

I don't think people are suggesting that players should get away with rules violations, but I for one don't believe spectators should be involved in the process for a number of reasons already given here under this topic. It's not about whether someone should be able to cheat, it's about how to enforce the rules. Golf has always been a sport of honor and players by and large do their best to follow the rules but everyone is human so inadvertent mistakes happen and if there isn't someone there to point it out at the time it happens, it should be left as is. If there are players that "cheat" on a regular basis, they will be called out and that will fix itself over time.

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Clearly, by some of the comments on here and by those quoted by some tour players, breaches of rules are quite commonplace. No shame in that, because everybody makes mistakes. The problem is when they are not mistakes - when they are deliberate actions. Some have called out as saying that improper marking of the ball is "rife" on tour. I tend to agree - especially when you consider the amount of money at stake and how that encourages greed. 

I've lost count of the number of times I've seen deliberate breaches and when they get called out, they either completely deny any knowledge of it or ignore it. If there is any way to discourage or lessen this trend among pros, let alone weekend amateurs, then I'm all for it. 

If that just so happens to be someone watching the event remotely, then I see absolutely no difference whatsoever than being called out by their own playing partner. The fact that the playing partner didn't witness or notice the act has no bearing on the fact that a breach occurred. 

Maybe we should rename this thread: "Should a player be allowed to make a deliberate breach and get away with it?" because that is what most are saying.

 

Agree with alot of what you said there. I just don't think someone at home should be able to call it in. I believe that all players rounds should be recorded equally as best as possible and that a rules official review their round that day. If there are any infractions they can be informed at that time so they do not incur a 2 stroke penalty for signing incorrectly. This would be fair to everyone and insure no violations occurred.  

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I don't think people are suggesting that players should get away with rules violations, but I for one don't believe spectators should be involved in the process for a number of reasons already given here under this topic. It's not about whether someone should be able to cheat, it's about how to enforce the rules. Golf has always been a sport of honor and players by and large do their best to follow the rules but everyone is human so inadvertent mistakes happen and if there isn't someone there to point it out at the time it happens, it should be left as is. If there are players that "cheat" on a regular basis, they will be called out and that will fix itself over time.

 

Boom!!!  Home run so touch all the bases.....   Well spoken

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It would be a "fairytale" to think all spectators intentions, were not swayed by an outside factor; such as country - state - country club etc. therefore and outside agent should be discounted, unless the agent is acting in good faith........but unfortunately this a far fetched assumption. The game is too complicated to allow such interferences as in the past - time to change this foolish rule.

 

 

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One thing sort of touched on in this thread but that bothers me .. .. is that the camera recording the video can oftentimes be pretty far and/or high away from where the shot is being played.

 

For example, atop a crane 100 feet in the air.

 

To me, this introduces a lot of potential viewing angle biases and distortions....

 

Unless the camera is a hand-held steady on the ground and directly on the straight line between the player's ball and the cup .. what can you really, truthfully see?

 

 

All that said, the rules are the rules and I believe everyone should play by them and within them; additionally, IMHO, Tour Pros .. being televised and being "models" for the viewers / golfing public .. have an extra obligation to play properly.

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