GolfSpy MPR Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 Who among us is using a torque-balanced putter? My new candidate came today: the Odyssey Seven Toe Up, pictured here with the putter it's trying to knock from my bag. I know we've got @edingc with a LAB in his bag right now. I should add here: LAB has a series of videos on their YouTube channel in which they compare and contrast their putters with the other major torque balanced models: Edel, Axis1, and the Odyssey Toe Up I just got. They deserve major credit for this series: their spokesman obviously believes he's representing a superior product, but he's not bashful about praising aspects of his competitor's products. I was impressed. Here's the video on the Odyssey Toe Up: All told, I'm pretty excited. I still have the older Odyssey Toe Up blade, and it was a model I putted well with. I love the Seven line from Odyssey, and so a Toe Up Seven really should be a great fit for me. I'll update this thread with my thoughts, and I figured this could be a place for the Torque-Balanced advocates to hang out. 00sportsman, JohnSmalls and PMookie 3 Quote TS3 9.5°, Tensei Blue CBX T3 15°, Project X HZRDUS Black Epic Super Hybrid 18°, Aerotech Steel Fiber FC HYB S C722 21°, Ventus Blue 8S CBX Iron-Wood 25°, Project X HZRDUS Black 6.0 639 CB, Aldila NV 95 Graphite, 6–PW CBX 48° T22 54° and 60° EAS 4.0, Garsen G-Pro grip TP5x and Tour Response Full WITB with pictures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PMookie Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 I’m back to Edel again after a two year hiatus. Just switched from the EAS 2.0 to the EAS 1.0 after a change in set-up. GolfSpy MPR and 00sportsman 2 Quote Driver: Ping G430 Max 9*, Ping Tour 70X Fairway: Ping G425 15*, Ping Tour 70X Hybrid: Ping G425 22*, Ping Tour 80X Irons: Ping i230 4-GW, TT DG X100 Wedges: SMS 50D/54V/58DModus 130 stiff, +1” Putter: EAS 1.0 Ball: Titleist 2023 AVX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PMookie Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 @GolfSpy MPRThis is an EXCELLENT video by David Edel sharing his view on “toe flow” putters and why torque balance IS the answer. GolfSpy MPR, 00sportsman, JohnSmalls and 1 other 4 Quote Driver: Ping G430 Max 9*, Ping Tour 70X Fairway: Ping G425 15*, Ping Tour 70X Hybrid: Ping G425 22*, Ping Tour 80X Irons: Ping i230 4-GW, TT DG X100 Wedges: SMS 50D/54V/58DModus 130 stiff, +1” Putter: EAS 1.0 Ball: Titleist 2023 AVX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfSpy MPR Posted March 12, 2021 Author Share Posted March 12, 2021 Let me throw this out for discussion: if torque balancing is an advantage, why is there virtually no representation of it on Tour? And a better question: if it works, why did Bryson (who of anyone on Tour would be willing—almost eager—to use an unorthodox looking putter) abandon his Edel for a conventional head? rlb4, cnosil, BMart519 and 2 others 5 Quote TS3 9.5°, Tensei Blue CBX T3 15°, Project X HZRDUS Black Epic Super Hybrid 18°, Aerotech Steel Fiber FC HYB S C722 21°, Ventus Blue 8S CBX Iron-Wood 25°, Project X HZRDUS Black 6.0 639 CB, Aldila NV 95 Graphite, 6–PW CBX 48° T22 54° and 60° EAS 4.0, Garsen G-Pro grip TP5x and Tour Response Full WITB with pictures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downlowkey Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 1 hour ago, GolfSpy MPR said: Let me throw this out for discussion: if torque balancing is an advantage, why is there virtually no representation of it on Tour? And a better question: if it works, why did Bryson (who of anyone on Tour would be willing—almost eager—to use an unorthodox looking putter) abandon his Edel for a conventional head? I think Dave somewhat answers your question about BAD’s approach at 0:55 in the video @PMookie posted above. Bryson virtually removes the incline plane (and wrist coil) with his super upright armlock setup. The result is an almost zero face rotation SBST stroke. Subsequently no need for torque balance but he must see some advantage to the consistent loft from the SIK roll face design. I feel like he has also referenced the super low torque shaft his particular SIK hosel will accept. But I’m not certain about any of it - just my 2 cents. JohnSmalls, PMookie, GolfSpy MPR and 1 other 3 1 Quote PXG___0811 X 9* - Mitsubishi Diamana s60 Limited X Cobra___S9-1 Pro 15* - Matrix Ozik XCON 7 S Adams___XTD Forged 3i - Matrix Ozik Program F15 120 S Adams___CMB 4-PW - Matrix Ozik Program F15 120 S KZG___Tri-Tour 50.08__54.10__58.12 - Accra iCWT 2.0-95i S Nike___Method Converge B1-01 (copper insert) Maxfli___'23 Tour X "The most important shot in golf is the next one“ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixyurdivot Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 Torque and putters is.... Spoiler "The toe up design makes it less resistant to twisting". OK, but how much twisting do putters experience under normal use? To what negative exponential ozf-in are we talking about here? I'm a wee bit skeptical - seems far off into the minutiae . But hey, I'm only recently getting spooled up on putter designs and how they fit with ones putting style... so I'll enjoy following along. JohnSmalls, 00sportsman and HardcoreLooper 3 Quote G410 Plus, 9 Degree Driver G400 SFT, 16 Degree 3w G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w ZX5 Irons 4-AW Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW (removed from double secret probation ) ER5v Putter (Official Review) AI-One Milled Seven T CH (Official Review) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PMookie Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said: Torque and putters is.... Hide contents "The toe up design makes it less resistant to twisting". OK, but how much twisting do putters experience under normal use? To what negative exponential ozf-in are we talking about here? I'm a wee bit skeptical - seems far off into the minutiae . But hey, I'm only recently getting spooled up on putter designs and how they fit with ones putting style... so I'll enjoy following along. Watch Edel’s video. The rotation of the putter isn’t from contact with the ball, it’s from manipulation by the person by how they hold the putter, stance, etc. Two different concepts altogether. aerospace_ray 1 Quote Driver: Ping G430 Max 9*, Ping Tour 70X Fairway: Ping G425 15*, Ping Tour 70X Hybrid: Ping G425 22*, Ping Tour 80X Irons: Ping i230 4-GW, TT DG X100 Wedges: SMS 50D/54V/58DModus 130 stiff, +1” Putter: EAS 1.0 Ball: Titleist 2023 AVX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PMookie Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 1 hour ago, GolfSpy MPR said: Let me throw this out for discussion: if torque balancing is an advantage, why is there virtually no representation of it on Tour? And a better question: if it works, why did Bryson (who of anyone on Tour would be willing—almost eager—to use an unorthodox looking putter) abandon his Edel for a conventional head? Two answers: money and..... Money. Edel can’t afford to sponsor, that’s why Bryson is with Cobra. He gave them the opportunity, he wanted to stay with Edel, and did until Cobra approached him and promised to build him the irons. Edel doesn’t sponsor anyone on any tour. The answer to sponsorship and why folks on Tour play almost anything is because of money... We also assume that tour guys know about physics and theories behind putter construction. If Ping and all other OEMs sell based-on “path”/toe hang, etc, why would the OEMs talk about torque balance to their players and the advantages if they don’t offer it? 00sportsman, downlowkey and JohnSmalls 3 Quote Driver: Ping G430 Max 9*, Ping Tour 70X Fairway: Ping G425 15*, Ping Tour 70X Hybrid: Ping G425 22*, Ping Tour 80X Irons: Ping i230 4-GW, TT DG X100 Wedges: SMS 50D/54V/58DModus 130 stiff, +1” Putter: EAS 1.0 Ball: Titleist 2023 AVX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegan_Golfer_PNW Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 Same with LAB golfs reveler PMookie and 00sportsman 2 Quote Follow my journey to enjoying golf and going low Driver: Epic Max LS Ventus Black 6x 44.5" 3wHL: Rogue ST LS 75x Tensei AV Blue w/ xlink 7w: Apex UW 21* MMT 80S DI: Caley 01X 18* with KBS PGH Stiff plus 95g 4-AW: 0211 with KBS Tour Stiff 2.5* up 3/4" long, Soft stepped, MOI matched Wedges Zipcore Putter: L.A.B. Directed Force 2.1 69*/35" in blue Ball: TBD Shot Tracking: Bag: Vessel VLX 2.0 Grip: Lamkin Sonar + Midsize My Reviews: Caley 01X Driving Iron Review 2023 Max Swing Speed Training and Speed Progress: Current Speed 120 in the MGS Speed Challenge (updated 3/15/23) TAIII #2 Review here: TAIII Impact #2 Putter ) Zipcore Tour Rack 54/full and 58/mid (review here) 0211 2019 Unofficial Review Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnosil Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 Here are my thoughts. Everyone's putting stroke is built around choices they make. We pick a setup position/posture, we pick how we hold the putter, and we we pick how we power the stroke. Based on these choices the putter moves through the stroke and the putter has some amount of rotation. Putters are designed to help us move the putter in the way our stroke needs. Per Edel, the torque balanced putter is designed for someone that uses their hands to move the putter or a linear stroke. If a torque balanced putter helps you start the ball on your intended line and roll the ball a specific distance it is the right putter for you. JohnSmalls, downlowkey, PMookie and 5 others 8 Quote Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: TS3 15* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: Sacks Parente MC 3 Stripe Backup Putters: Milled Collection RSX 2, mFGP2, Futura 5W, TM-180 Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
null Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 28 minutes ago, cnosil said: Here are my thoughts. Everyone's putting stroke is built around choices they make. We pick a setup position/posture, we pick how we hold the putter, and we we pick how we power the stroke. Based on these choices the putter moves through the stroke and the putter has some amount of rotation. Putters are designed to help us move the putter in the way our stroke needs. Per Edel, the torque balanced putter is designed for someone that uses their hands to move the putter or a linear stroke. If a torque balanced putter helps you start the ball on your intended line and roll the ball a specific distance it is the right putter for you. Exactly. It’s AN answer. Not THE answer. I’m sure there are golfers that could benefit from Toe Up putters. Ive tried them and disliked them. Odyssey tried to launch a Toe Up putter and it failed miserably. I love Edel and think he’s one of the smartest guys in the industry, but he’s also a salesman so of course he’s going to push his theories/products 00sportsman, cnosil and JohnSmalls 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnosil Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 9 minutes ago, jlukes said: Exactly. It’s AN answer. Not THE answer. I’m sure there are golfers that could benefit from Toe Up putters. Ive tried them and disliked them. Odyssey tried to launch a Toe Up putter and it failed miserably. I love Edel and think he’s one of the smartest guys in the industry, but he’s also a salesman so of course he’s going to push his theories/products Ive tried them as well. I can make them work, but nothing radically better than the putter in my bag now. The toe up design is just very radical and since so few people make it the average golfer just thinks gimmick. Edel can be successful because of the who fitting process and because he is more of a boutique brand and people seek him out. JohnSmalls, 00sportsman, edingc and 3 others 6 Quote Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: TS3 15* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: Sacks Parente MC 3 Stripe Backup Putters: Milled Collection RSX 2, mFGP2, Futura 5W, TM-180 Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PMookie Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 2 hours ago, cnosil said: Here are my thoughts. Everyone's putting stroke is built around choices they make. We pick a setup position/posture, we pick how we hold the putter, and we we pick how we power the stroke. Based on these choices the putter moves through the stroke and the putter has some amount of rotation. Putters are designed to help us move the putter in the way our stroke needs. Per Edel, the torque balanced putter is designed for someone that uses their hands to move the putter or a linear stroke. If a torque balanced putter helps you start the ball on your intended line and roll the ball a specific distance it is the right putter for you. Can you clarify “uses their hands or a linear stroke”? Quote Driver: Ping G430 Max 9*, Ping Tour 70X Fairway: Ping G425 15*, Ping Tour 70X Hybrid: Ping G425 22*, Ping Tour 80X Irons: Ping i230 4-GW, TT DG X100 Wedges: SMS 50D/54V/58DModus 130 stiff, +1” Putter: EAS 1.0 Ball: Titleist 2023 AVX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PMookie Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 Some may not have listened to David explain toe flow vs torque balanced. SeeMore, LAB, Edel, they all talk about what the putter head does when on an incline plane, this is the major point so many miss. Physics of a golf club are completely different when measured vertically vs on the incline plane. This goes for every club in the bag. As David points-out, toe flow is inconsistent because one has to rotate the putter head at exactly the same timing every time to make it work consistently. The rate of rotation has to always be the same and by having to manipulate that rotation, it becomes inherently inconsistent. Add the fact that the “swing” is on an incline and its even more difficult. Again, even the folks at SeeMore point this out. Think of a handsy golfer who flips, or rotates the hands just before impact. Hard to do consistently. Same idea with putting when a club face is opening and closing through the swing. Hard to time.... Yep, folks can like how a putter looks and feels, but it doesn’t change the fact that the putter’s design can actually make putting more difficult. Torque balance isn’t the answer for everyone, but David does give THE answer to the OP question in his video. That was the point I was trying to make.... downlowkey, Vegan_Golfer_PNW, 00sportsman and 1 other 4 Quote Driver: Ping G430 Max 9*, Ping Tour 70X Fairway: Ping G425 15*, Ping Tour 70X Hybrid: Ping G425 22*, Ping Tour 80X Irons: Ping i230 4-GW, TT DG X100 Wedges: SMS 50D/54V/58DModus 130 stiff, +1” Putter: EAS 1.0 Ball: Titleist 2023 AVX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yungkory Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 8 hours ago, GolfSpy MPR said: Who among us is using a torque-balanced putter? My new candidate came today: the Odyssey Seven Toe Up, pictured here with the putter it's trying to knock from my bag. I know we've got @edingc with a LAB in his bag right now. I should add here: LAB has a series of videos on their YouTube channel in which they compare and contrast their putters with the other major torque balanced models: Edel, Axis1, and the Odyssey Toe Up I just got. They deserve major credit for this series: their spokesman obviously believes he's representing a superior product, but he's not bashful about praising aspects of his competitor's products. I was impressed. Here's the video on the Odyssey Toe Up: All told, I'm pretty excited. I still have the older Odyssey Toe Up blade, and it was a model I putted well with. I love the Seven line from Odyssey, and so a Toe Up Seven really should be a great fit for me. I'll update this thread with my thoughts, and I figured this could be a place for the Torque-Balanced advocates to hang out. I've been gaming a LAB since late December 2020 and have seen a decent improvement (1-2 putts less, per 9 holes). Not sure if it's a direct credit to the tech of the putter, or a nod to a better virtual fitting experience than I could find with Evnroll for example. It's not magically turning me into Jordan Speith levels of putting but it has me holing more "makeable" putts from 10' and in. I wanted to convert more birdies, and save more pars, and so far so good. Like others have said there's no one size fits all solution, but I'd be interested to see if the greater majority of folks didn't make more putts with a torque balanced putter. Vegan_Golfer_PNW, downlowkey, 00sportsman and 5 others 6 2 Quote Driver: Rogue ST Max LS Tensei AV Blue S 3w/5w: TSi2 Tensei AV Raw Blue S 4h: CLK 22* Hybrid Tensei CK Pro Blue 80HY S Irons 5-PW: 223 Steelfiber PR 95 S Wedges: RTX Zipcore Tour Rack 50, 54, 58 Steelfiber PR 105 Putter: LAB Link.1 Ball: Z-Star Diamond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrokerAce Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 6 hours ago, yungkory said: I've been gaming a LAB since late December 2020 and have seen a decent improvement (1-2 putts less, per 9 holes). Not sure if it's a direct credit to the tech of the putter, or a nod to a better virtual fitting experience than I could find with Evnroll for example. It's not magically turning me into Jordan Speith levels of putting but it has me holing more "makeable" putts from 10' and in. I wanted to convert more birdies, and save more pars, and so far so good. Like others have said there's no one size fits all solution, but I'd be interested to see if the greater majority of folks didn't make more putts with a torque balanced putter. were you fit for your L.A.B. or did you buy it OTR? GolfSpy MPR 1 Quote Driver- Cobra Aerojet LS Woods- Cobra LTD 3w 15*, 5W 19*, F9 24* Irons- XXIO X (6-A) Wedges- Callaway Jaws Raw (54/58) Putter- Bettinardi BB56 Ball- Maxfli Tour X Buggy- Motocaddy M7 GPS Remote Electric Caddy Bag- Motocaddy Dry-Series Proudly testing for 2024: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfSpy MPR Posted March 12, 2021 Author Share Posted March 12, 2021 On a lighter note: does it even deserve the Seven name of you can't pick up the ball with the fangs? More seriously, while we can debate whether the torque ideas are beneficial or not, they're definitely real. One of my other putters is a Stroke Lab R Ball with a slant hosel, same length and grip as my new Toe Up. I had my wife hand me each one while I had my eyes closed, and I could tell them apart by rocking them back and forth while feeling for any tendency to want to open and close. yungkory, PMookie, 00sportsman and 2 others 3 2 Quote TS3 9.5°, Tensei Blue CBX T3 15°, Project X HZRDUS Black Epic Super Hybrid 18°, Aerotech Steel Fiber FC HYB S C722 21°, Ventus Blue 8S CBX Iron-Wood 25°, Project X HZRDUS Black 6.0 639 CB, Aldila NV 95 Graphite, 6–PW CBX 48° T22 54° and 60° EAS 4.0, Garsen G-Pro grip TP5x and Tour Response Full WITB with pictures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edingc Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 8 hours ago, yungkory said: I've been gaming a LAB since late December 2020 and have seen a decent improvement (1-2 putts less, per 9 holes). Not sure if it's a direct credit to the tech of the putter, or a nod to a better virtual fitting experience than I could find with Evnroll for example. It's not magically turning me into Jordan Speith levels of putting but it has me holing more "makeable" putts from 10' and in. I wanted to convert more birdies, and save more pars, and so far so good. Like others have said there's no one size fits all solution, but I'd be interested to see if the greater majority of folks didn't make more putts with a torque balanced putter. I was waiting for you to chime in since I can't add any recent comments on my L.A.B. until I get out on the course more this spring. I saw an immediate improvement in my putting switching from the Spider X to the L.A.B., but like you said, I'm not convinced it's all in the tech. In my case, I think the Press II grip ensuring a consistent shaft lean helps me more than the lie-angle balance. And, at the end of the day, after spending $700+ on a putter, I practiced a lot more. Maybe I would have seen the same improvement with just more practice with the Spider X? Tough to tell. I actually wanted an Edel first, but there were no fitters around me and with COVID-restrictions I was not able to travel out of state (Chicagoland area would have been the easiest place to find an Edel fitter...). yungkory, StrokerAce, downlowkey and 6 others 9 Quote Unofficial WHS Handicap: 7.5 / Anti-Cap: 13.0 (Last Updated Feb. 19, 2024) Driver: Callaway Paradym TD (10.5°, -1/N), 45.75", Fujikura Motore X F1 6X | Fitting Post 3 Wood: Cobra RadSpeed Big Tour (14.5°), 43", Fujikura Motore X F1 7X 20° Hybrid: PXG 0211 (2020 Model), 40.25", Mitsubishi Tensei AV RAW White 90X 4 Utility: Cobra KING Utility (2020 Model), 38.5", Aerotech SteelFiber i110cw Stiff 5-PW: Ben Hogan PTx Pro, 37" 7 Iron, Aerotech SteelFiber i125cw Stiff | Club Champion Fitting 50°, 54°, 58°: Edel SMS, V Grind, Nippon Modus 125 Wedge| Official Review Thread Putter: L.A.B. Golf DF 2.1, 36", 68°, Black with Custom Sightlines, BGT Stability Tour, L.A.B. Press II 3° | Unofficial Review Grips: Star Sidewinder, Undersized with Custom Tape Build-Up Ball: Snell MTB-X Optic Yellow Tracked By: Shot Scope H4 Bag: Personalized 2020 Sun Mountain Sync Riding On: Bag Boy Nitron | Official Review Thread WITB? | 2022 Reviewer Edel SMS Wedges | 2021 Reviewer Maxfli Tour and Tour X Balls | 2020 Participant #CobraConnect Challenge | 2019 Reviewer Callaway Epic Flash Driver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixyurdivot Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 54 minutes ago, GolfSpy MPR said: On a lighter note: does it even deserve the Seven name of you can't pick up the ball with the fangs? More seriously, while we can debate whether the torque ideas are beneficial or not, they're definitely real. One of my other putters is a Stroke Lab R Ball with a slant hosel, same length and grip as my new Toe Up. I had my wife hand me each one while I had my eyes closed, and I could tell them apart by rocking them back and forth while feeling for any tendency to want to open and close. Ha, I new that putter was suspect . Any new putter I get must have pick-up capability. GolfSpy MPR and 00sportsman 2 Quote G410 Plus, 9 Degree Driver G400 SFT, 16 Degree 3w G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w ZX5 Irons 4-AW Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW (removed from double secret probation ) ER5v Putter (Official Review) AI-One Milled Seven T CH (Official Review) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yungkory Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 4 hours ago, StrokerAce said: were you fit for your L.A.B. or did you buy it OTR? I did their video "fitting" after @edingc posted his results were within a degree of each other (I think) when he did both online and in person. There's no in person option for me on island sadly. 2 hours ago, edingc said: I was waiting for you to chime in since I can't add any recent comments on my L.A.B. until I get out on the course more this spring. I saw an immediate improvement in my putting switching from the Spider X to the L.A.B., but like you said, I'm not convinced it's all in the tech. In my case, I think the Press II grip ensuring a consistent shaft lean helps me more than the lie-angle balance. And, at the end of the day, after spending $700+ on a putter, I practiced a lot more. Maybe I would have seen the same improvement with just more practice with the Spider X? Tough to tell. I actually wanted an Edel first, but there were no fitters around me and with COVID-restrictions I was not able to travel out of state (Chicagoland area would have been the easiest place to find an Edel fi Length might be a large contributing factor to my improvement. Matt @ LAB noted that my eyes were nearly beyond the target line at address, and the extra inch brought me inside the line at address now. Feels like I can see the line a bit better, but could be purely placebo. At the end of the day, I notice that I'm typically 1-2 putts better than I was (on average) after putting the LAB in play, so I'm happy. Think I've only had 2 3-putts in my last 10 rounds which I'm thrilled with considering my proximity to hole isn't very great. Small sample size still but here's a snap of where I play most. I got the LAB at the end of December so I'm not sure exactly which day it made its maiden voyage, but definitely haven't gamed anything else in 2021: Yesterday was an anomaly, I put two recovery chip shots less than a foot from the cup and had 1-putts on the first 5 holes. Also 1/28 was when I made my ace so that's also kinda a statistical outlier. 00sportsman, edingc, PMookie and 2 others 5 Quote Driver: Rogue ST Max LS Tensei AV Blue S 3w/5w: TSi2 Tensei AV Raw Blue S 4h: CLK 22* Hybrid Tensei CK Pro Blue 80HY S Irons 5-PW: 223 Steelfiber PR 95 S Wedges: RTX Zipcore Tour Rack 50, 54, 58 Steelfiber PR 105 Putter: LAB Link.1 Ball: Z-Star Diamond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnosil Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 Can you clarify “uses their hands or a linear stroke”?This is my understanding based on info from my putting instructor and watching some if the Edel videos. If you Do a search for linear stroke you can find an audio clip from David edel. David; could be others, seems to classify stroke as linear or radial. When you make your stroke and use your shoulders the butt of the grip generally points at a single point like your belly button. Player focus is probably on swinging the head of the putter. In a linear stroke the hands are inControl and the butt of the grip moves more left to right and the shaft stays more perpendicular to the ground. This is why Edel putts a lot of the fitting focus on the weights under the hands. Player focuses on hand movement over putter movement. Again this is my interpretation of the information i have gathered on the putting stroke. yungkory and PMookie 2 Quote Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: TS3 15* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: Sacks Parente MC 3 Stripe Backup Putters: Milled Collection RSX 2, mFGP2, Futura 5W, TM-180 Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PMookie Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 45 minutes ago, cnosil said: This is my understanding based on info from my putting instructor and watching some if the Edel videos. If you Do a search for linear stroke you can find an audio clip from David edel. David; could be others, seems to classify stroke as linear or radial. When you make your stroke and use your shoulders the butt of the grip generally points at a single point like your belly button. Player focus is probably on swinging the head of the putter. In a linear stroke the hands are in Control and the butt of the grip moves more left to right and the shaft stays more perpendicular to the ground. This is why Edel putts a lot of the fitting focus on the weights under the hands. Player focuses on hand movement over putter movement. Again this is my interpretation of the information i have gathered on the putting stroke. Ok, gotcha. Interesting info! I may be more linear, but no hands. I’ve adopted the style of holding the club that TXG showed in a video this year, shaft up the forearms, wrists in extension, then I just rock the shoulders keeping the hands out of the stroke. I remember in my first Edel fitting the Pro telling me that they try to use the weights to have the hands and head in a vertical line at impact, and the weights are also used for speed calibration. When I was putting to the string 15 feet away, he watched where the ball finished, and the pendulum of the stroke, and then worked with the weights inside the grip, along with the head weight. cnosil and 00sportsman 2 Quote Driver: Ping G430 Max 9*, Ping Tour 70X Fairway: Ping G425 15*, Ping Tour 70X Hybrid: Ping G425 22*, Ping Tour 80X Irons: Ping i230 4-GW, TT DG X100 Wedges: SMS 50D/54V/58DModus 130 stiff, +1” Putter: EAS 1.0 Ball: Titleist 2023 AVX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegan_Golfer_PNW Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 Well axis is offering a 30 day guarantee that it will help you putt better. Anyone bold enough? Has me thinking. Quote Follow my journey to enjoying golf and going low Driver: Epic Max LS Ventus Black 6x 44.5" 3wHL: Rogue ST LS 75x Tensei AV Blue w/ xlink 7w: Apex UW 21* MMT 80S DI: Caley 01X 18* with KBS PGH Stiff plus 95g 4-AW: 0211 with KBS Tour Stiff 2.5* up 3/4" long, Soft stepped, MOI matched Wedges Zipcore Putter: L.A.B. Directed Force 2.1 69*/35" in blue Ball: TBD Shot Tracking: Bag: Vessel VLX 2.0 Grip: Lamkin Sonar + Midsize My Reviews: Caley 01X Driving Iron Review 2023 Max Swing Speed Training and Speed Progress: Current Speed 120 in the MGS Speed Challenge (updated 3/15/23) TAIII #2 Review here: TAIII Impact #2 Putter ) Zipcore Tour Rack 54/full and 58/mid (review here) 0211 2019 Unofficial Review Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixyurdivot Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 1 hour ago, rbsiedsc said: Well axis is offering a 30 day guarantee that it will help you putt better. Anyone bold enough? Has me thinking. First I've heard of them. Their Umbra model is a very different looking design. I kind of like the look of the Tour HM - it most closely resembles my B61. So besides the shaft axis being aligned/centered through the head COG, what other magic is going on with these? Their video helps makes sense of what the "torque balance" moniker is getting at. Further, they suggest face-balanced designs are meaningless from the standpoint that the way they are determined as FB vs. how used in the putter stroke/address position are disconnected. As an aspiring MGS Club-Ho, this had me tracking to give them a try... until I saw the $449 price . downlowkey 1 Quote G410 Plus, 9 Degree Driver G400 SFT, 16 Degree 3w G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w ZX5 Irons 4-AW Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW (removed from double secret probation ) ER5v Putter (Official Review) AI-One Milled Seven T CH (Official Review) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegan_Golfer_PNW Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 2 hours ago, fixyurdivot said: First I've heard of them. Their Umbra model is a very different looking design. I kind of like the look of the Tour HM - it most closely resembles my B61. So besides the shaft axis being aligned/centered through the head COG, what other magic is going on with these? Their video helps makes sense of what the "torque balance" moniker is getting at. Further, they suggest face-balanced designs are meaningless from the standpoint that the way they are determined as FB vs. how used in the putter stroke/address position are disconnected. As an aspiring MGS Club-Ho, this had me tracking to give them a try... until I saw the $449 price . Haha yup. Might as well get a LAB then. fixyurdivot 1 Quote Follow my journey to enjoying golf and going low Driver: Epic Max LS Ventus Black 6x 44.5" 3wHL: Rogue ST LS 75x Tensei AV Blue w/ xlink 7w: Apex UW 21* MMT 80S DI: Caley 01X 18* with KBS PGH Stiff plus 95g 4-AW: 0211 with KBS Tour Stiff 2.5* up 3/4" long, Soft stepped, MOI matched Wedges Zipcore Putter: L.A.B. Directed Force 2.1 69*/35" in blue Ball: TBD Shot Tracking: Bag: Vessel VLX 2.0 Grip: Lamkin Sonar + Midsize My Reviews: Caley 01X Driving Iron Review 2023 Max Swing Speed Training and Speed Progress: Current Speed 120 in the MGS Speed Challenge (updated 3/15/23) TAIII #2 Review here: TAIII Impact #2 Putter ) Zipcore Tour Rack 54/full and 58/mid (review here) 0211 2019 Unofficial Review Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfSpy MPR Posted March 25, 2021 Author Share Posted March 25, 2021 After a couple of weeks now of indoor putting, I'm nearly certain that my new Toe Up Seven is going to be replacing the Seven Mini S in my signature. The biggest con of this putter (and virtually all torque balanced putters) is obviously its looks. But at least for me, I've found it easier to get over it with the Seven Toe Up than I did with the older One Toe Up model that I used to play. Your mileage will certainly vary; I can certainly understand that there are some who could never get used to this: But the odd shaft position, for whatever reason, doesn't really bother me. So for the pros: As our UK friends say: it does what's written on the tin. It simply doesn't want to open and close during the stroke. For me, that's perfect. It completely fits what I want to do in my putting stroke. As always, I love the alignment cues of the Seven fangs. And they work even better for me with this model: I truly feel as though the long white lines are the tracks on which I take the putter back and through. I'm loving the face. (Grateful for @GolfSpy Dave's work reviewing this putter, as I keep stealing his pictures here.) It's difficult to capture in the photos, but the black bits on the face seem more metal-ly than I've seen on a lot of the White Hot+hinges Odyssey faces. The O-Works microhinge face was soft, almost to the point of mushy. The face on my EXO Indianapolis felt like a cheap piece of plastic. This one, for me, is perfect. And I know it's perfect simply because it took me a while before I even noticed it. For me, it's a totally neutral feel: not harsh, not clicky, not soft. It feels predictable, though the test for that won't happen until I can putt longer than 11 feet in my basement. I've got a second PuttOut arriving today. I keep my PuttOut at my office (where I use my Evnroll Tour Stroke Trainer to practice). The second PuttOut will stay at home, and I'm looking forward to putting my torque-balanced Seven through some of the testing I normally do for my putters. One possible coming modification: I have a search going on eBay for a used or discounted Gravity Grip. I had one of those on my Indianapolis, and when I pull that off my putter rack, it remains the putter in my collection that feels like exactly the right balance. Might see if I can replicate that with the Toe Up Seven. fixyurdivot, edingc, StrokerAce and 2 others 5 Quote TS3 9.5°, Tensei Blue CBX T3 15°, Project X HZRDUS Black Epic Super Hybrid 18°, Aerotech Steel Fiber FC HYB S C722 21°, Ventus Blue 8S CBX Iron-Wood 25°, Project X HZRDUS Black 6.0 639 CB, Aldila NV 95 Graphite, 6–PW CBX 48° T22 54° and 60° EAS 4.0, Garsen G-Pro grip TP5x and Tour Response Full WITB with pictures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downlowkey Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 On 3/16/2021 at 5:29 PM, fixyurdivot said: As an aspiring MGS Club-Ho, this had me tracking to give them a try... until I saw the $449 price . Managed to snag a mint Axis1 Rose off eBay last year for $250. We spent a few weeks together on the practice green but it never made it into the bag for a proper loop. I flipped it for a substantial profit. The (torque + COG) physics Luis talks about in that video are sensible, but for me personally, the 2-piece construction of the Rose head made for awful feel. Impact sounded almost hollow and I really struggled with pace. I’m accustomed to feeling the weight of the putter head but with the Axis1 it’s a much more unified feeling grip/shaft/head - almost like the head wasn’t even there. Or at the very least in a slightly different location than my eyes are actually seeing it. It’s bizarre and I couldn’t get comfortable with the feeling. I know TXG has a real bugaboo for center shafted heads but IMO certain aspects of the physics Luis talks about are aligned with high MOI face balanced center shafted setups - like my Bobby Grace NYC Tour. My next experiment will likely be a Bobby Grace *asskicker mallet (similar to @GolfSpy MPR’s Toe Up Seven) but they are hard to come by used and I’m not willing to roll the dice for $500+ unless it’s very promising in a proper fitting. edingc, fixyurdivot and GolfSpy MPR 3 Quote PXG___0811 X 9* - Mitsubishi Diamana s60 Limited X Cobra___S9-1 Pro 15* - Matrix Ozik XCON 7 S Adams___XTD Forged 3i - Matrix Ozik Program F15 120 S Adams___CMB 4-PW - Matrix Ozik Program F15 120 S KZG___Tri-Tour 50.08__54.10__58.12 - Accra iCWT 2.0-95i S Nike___Method Converge B1-01 (copper insert) Maxfli___'23 Tour X "The most important shot in golf is the next one“ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrokerAce Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 23 hours ago, GolfSpy MPR said: After a couple of weeks now of indoor putting, I'm nearly certain that my new Toe Up Seven is going to be replacing the Seven Mini S in my signature. The biggest con of this putter (and virtually all torque balanced putters) is obviously its looks. But at least for me, I've found it easier to get over it with the Seven Toe Up than I did with the older One Toe Up model that I used to play. Your mileage will certainly vary; I can certainly understand that there are some who could never get used to this: But the odd shaft position, for whatever reason, doesn't really bother me. So for the pros: As our UK friends say: it does what's written on the tin. It simply doesn't want to open and close during the stroke. For me, that's perfect. It completely fits what I want to do in my putting stroke. As always, I love the alignment cues of the Seven fangs. And they work even better for me with this model: I truly feel as though the long white lines are the tracks on which I take the putter back and through. I'm loving the face. (Grateful for @GolfSpy Dave's work reviewing this putter, as I keep stealing his pictures here.) It's difficult to capture in the photos, but the black bits on the face seem more metal-ly than I've seen on a lot of the White Hot+hinges Odyssey faces. The O-Works microhinge face was soft, almost to the point of mushy. The face on my EXO Indianapolis felt like a cheap piece of plastic. This one, for me, is perfect. And I know it's perfect simply because it took me a while before I even noticed it. For me, it's a totally neutral feel: not harsh, not clicky, not soft. It feels predictable, though the test for that won't happen until I can putt longer than 11 feet in my basement. I've got a second PuttOut arriving today. I keep my PuttOut at my office (where I use my Evnroll Tour Stroke Trainer to practice). The second PuttOut will stay at home, and I'm looking forward to putting my torque-balanced Seven through some of the testing I normally do for my putters. One possible coming modification: I have a search going on eBay for a used or discounted Gravity Grip. I had one of those on my Indianapolis, and when I pull that off my putter rack, it remains the putter in my collection that feels like exactly the right balance. Might see if I can replicate that with the Toe Up Seven. Happy you updated this as one of these is definitely on my radar. I can easily get over the shaft location, have always liked the looks of the #7 and my Scotty can get a little twisty sometimes. Will be looking forward to your on-course results. GolfSpy MPR 1 Quote Driver- Cobra Aerojet LS Woods- Cobra LTD 3w 15*, 5W 19*, F9 24* Irons- XXIO X (6-A) Wedges- Callaway Jaws Raw (54/58) Putter- Bettinardi BB56 Ball- Maxfli Tour X Buggy- Motocaddy M7 GPS Remote Electric Caddy Bag- Motocaddy Dry-Series Proudly testing for 2024: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBT Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 I really need to look into more, never really heard of torque balanced putters before Sent from my iPad using MyGolfSpy Quote XR Driver Matrix Ozik 8m3 Black Tie Shaft King F7 3W UST Mamiya Chrome Elements 7F4 Shaft King F7 5W UST Mamiya Chrome Elements 7F4 Shaft King F7 4 Hybrid Graphite Designs Tour AD-HY 95 Shaft PXG 0211 DC 5-PW Mitsubishi MMT 80 Shafts RTX ZIPCORE 50*,54*,58* UST Mamiya Recoil 95 Shafts Metal X Milled #7 with SuperStroke 2.0 grip MTB Twitter: @timldotson Instagram: timldotson Facebook: TimDotson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Middler Posted April 11, 2021 Share Posted April 11, 2021 On 3/11/2021 at 8:46 PM, cnosil said: Here are my thoughts. Everyone's putting stroke is built around choices they make. We pick a setup position/posture, we pick how we hold the putter, and we we pick how we power the stroke. Based on these choices the putter moves through the stroke and the putter has some amount of rotation. Putters are designed to help us move the putter in the way our stroke needs. Per Edel, the torque balanced putter is designed for someone that uses their hands to move the putter or a linear stroke. If a torque balanced putter helps you start the ball on your intended line and roll the ball a specific distance it is the right putter for you. What a great post! There's a crucial insight I hadn't grasped. I know 2 guys with LAB putters and they seem to think it's superior for everyone. Now I know why it probably isn't. Quote Titleist TSR2 11° HZRDUS Red CB 50 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize Titleist TSR2 16.5º HZRDUS Red 60 CB 6.0 & TSR2 21º HZRDUS Black 4G 70 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize Mizuno JPX923 HMP 4-GW, T22 54.12WS, T22 58.04DC w Lamkin ST+2 Hybrid Midsize Evnroll EV5.3 Maxfli Tour & ProV1 Ping Pioneer - MGI Zip Navigator AT Payntr X 002 LE, Ecco Biom C4, Payntr X 001 F (Mesh) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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