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The Torque Balanced Thread


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Who among us is using a torque-balanced putter? My new candidate came today: the Odyssey Seven Toe Up, pictured here with the putter it's trying to knock from my bag.

sevens.jpg

I know we've got @edingc with a LAB in his bag right now. I should add here: LAB has a series of videos on their YouTube channel in which they compare and contrast their putters with the other major torque balanced models: Edel, Axis1, and the Odyssey Toe Up I just got. They deserve major credit for this series: their spokesman obviously believes he's representing a superior product, but he's not bashful about praising aspects of his competitor's products. I was impressed. Here's the video on the Odyssey Toe Up:

All told, I'm pretty excited. I still have the older Odyssey Toe Up blade, and it was a model I putted well with. I love the Seven line from Odyssey, and so a Toe Up Seven really should be a great fit for me. I'll update this thread with my thoughts, and I figured this could be a place for the Torque-Balanced advocates to hang out.

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I’m back to Edel again after a two year hiatus. Just switched from the EAS 2.0 to the EAS 1.0 after a change in set-up. 

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@GolfSpy MPRThis is an EXCELLENT video by David Edel sharing his view on “toe flow” putters and why torque balance IS the answer.

 

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Let me throw this out for discussion: if torque balancing is an advantage, why is there virtually no representation of it on Tour?

And a better question: if it works, why did Bryson (who of anyone on Tour would be willing—almost eager—to use an unorthodox looking putter) abandon his Edel for a conventional head?

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1 hour ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

Let me throw this out for discussion: if torque balancing is an advantage, why is there virtually no representation of it on Tour?

And a better question: if it works, why did Bryson (who of anyone on Tour would be willing—almost eager—to use an unorthodox looking putter) abandon his Edel for a conventional head?

I think Dave somewhat answers your question about BAD’s approach at 0:55 in the video @PMookie posted above. Bryson virtually removes the incline plane (and wrist coil) with his super upright armlock setup. The result is an almost zero face rotation SBST stroke. Subsequently no need for torque balance but he must see some advantage to the consistent loft from the SIK roll face design. I feel like he has also referenced the super low torque shaft his particular SIK hosel will accept. But I’m not certain about any of it - just my 2 cents.

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Torque and putters is....

Spoiler

Illogical Spock GIFs | Tenor

"The toe up design makes it less resistant to twisting".  OK, but how much twisting do putters experience under normal use?  To what negative exponential ozf-in are we talking about here?  I'm a wee bit skeptical - seems far off into the minutiae 🤔.  But hey, I'm only recently getting spooled up on putter designs and how they fit with ones putting style... so I'll enjoy following along.

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3 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Torque and putters is....

  Hide contents

Illogical Spock GIFs | Tenor

"The toe up design makes it less resistant to twisting".  OK, but how much twisting do putters experience under normal use?  To what negative exponential ozf-in are we talking about here?  I'm a wee bit skeptical - seems far off into the minutiae 🤔.  But hey, I'm only recently getting spooled up on putter designs and how they fit with ones putting style... so I'll enjoy following along.

Watch Edel’s video. The rotation of the putter isn’t from contact with the ball, it’s from manipulation by the person by how they hold the putter, stance, etc. Two different concepts altogether.

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1 hour ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

Let me throw this out for discussion: if torque balancing is an advantage, why is there virtually no representation of it on Tour?

And a better question: if it works, why did Bryson (who of anyone on Tour would be willing—almost eager—to use an unorthodox looking putter) abandon his Edel for a conventional head?

Two answers: money and..... Money.

Edel can’t afford to sponsor, that’s why Bryson is with Cobra. He gave them the opportunity, he wanted to stay with Edel, and did until Cobra approached him and promised to build him the irons. Edel doesn’t sponsor anyone on any tour. The answer to sponsorship and why folks on Tour play almost anything is because of money...

We also assume that tour guys know about physics and theories behind putter construction. If Ping and all other OEMs sell based-on “path”/toe hang, etc, why would the OEMs talk about torque balance to their players  and the advantages if they don’t offer it? 

 

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Same with LAB golfs reveler

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Here are my thoughts.   

Everyone's putting stroke is built around choices they make.  We pick a setup position/posture,  we pick how we hold the putter, and we we pick how we power the stroke.   Based on these choices the putter moves through the stroke and the putter has some amount of rotation.  Putters are designed to help us move the putter in the way our stroke needs.  Per Edel, the torque balanced putter is designed for someone that uses their hands to move the putter or a linear stroke.   

If a torque balanced putter helps you start the ball on your intended line and roll the ball a specific distance it is the right putter for you. 

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28 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Here are my thoughts.   

Everyone's putting stroke is built around choices they make.  We pick a setup position/posture,  we pick how we hold the putter, and we we pick how we power the stroke.   Based on these choices the putter moves through the stroke and the putter has some amount of rotation.  Putters are designed to help us move the putter in the way our stroke needs.  Per Edel, the torque balanced putter is designed for someone that uses their hands to move the putter or a linear stroke.   

If a torque balanced putter helps you start the ball on your intended line and roll the ball a specific distance it is the right putter for you. 

Exactly. It’s AN answer. Not THE answer. I’m sure there are golfers that could benefit from Toe Up putters. 

Ive tried them and disliked them. 
 

Odyssey tried to launch a Toe Up putter and it failed miserably. 
 

I love Edel and think he’s one of the smartest guys in the industry, but he’s also a salesman so of course he’s going to push his theories/products 
 

 

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9 minutes ago, jlukes said:

Exactly. It’s AN answer. Not THE answer. I’m sure there are golfers that could benefit from Toe Up putters. 

Ive tried them and disliked them. 
 

Odyssey tried to launch a Toe Up putter and it failed miserably. 
 

I love Edel and think he’s one of the smartest guys in the industry, but he’s also a salesman so of course he’s going to push his theories/products 
 

 

Ive tried them as well.  I can make them work,  but nothing radically better than the putter in my bag now.    The toe up design is just very radical and since so few people make it the average golfer just thinks gimmick.  Edel can be successful because of the who fitting process and because he is more of a boutique brand and people seek him out.   

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2 hours ago, cnosil said:

Here are my thoughts.   

Everyone's putting stroke is built around choices they make.  We pick a setup position/posture,  we pick how we hold the putter, and we we pick how we power the stroke.   Based on these choices the putter moves through the stroke and the putter has some amount of rotation.  Putters are designed to help us move the putter in the way our stroke needs.  Per Edel, the torque balanced putter is designed for someone that uses their hands to move the putter or a linear stroke.   

If a torque balanced putter helps you start the ball on your intended line and roll the ball a specific distance it is the right putter for you. 

Can you clarify “uses their hands or a linear stroke”?

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Some may not have listened to David explain toe flow vs torque balanced. SeeMore, LAB, Edel, they all talk about what the putter head does when on an incline plane, this is the major point so many miss. Physics of a golf club are completely different when measured vertically vs on the incline plane. This goes for every club in the bag. As David points-out, toe flow is inconsistent because one has to rotate the putter head at exactly the same timing every time to make it work consistently. The rate of rotation has to always be the same and by having to manipulate that rotation, it becomes inherently inconsistent. Add the fact that the “swing” is on an incline and its even more difficult. Again, even the folks at SeeMore point this out. Think of a handsy golfer who flips, or rotates the hands just before impact. Hard to do consistently. Same idea with putting when a club face is opening and closing through the swing. Hard to time....

Yep, folks can like how a putter looks and feels, but it doesn’t change the fact that the putter’s design can actually make putting more difficult.

Torque balance isn’t the answer for everyone, but David does give THE answer to the OP question in his video. That was the point I was trying to make....

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8 hours ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

Who among us is using a torque-balanced putter? My new candidate came today: the Odyssey Seven Toe Up, pictured here with the putter it's trying to knock from my bag.

sevens.jpg

I know we've got @edingc with a LAB in his bag right now. I should add here: LAB has a series of videos on their YouTube channel in which they compare and contrast their putters with the other major torque balanced models: Edel, Axis1, and the Odyssey Toe Up I just got. They deserve major credit for this series: their spokesman obviously believes he's representing a superior product, but he's not bashful about praising aspects of his competitor's products. I was impressed. Here's the video on the Odyssey Toe Up:

All told, I'm pretty excited. I still have the older Odyssey Toe Up blade, and it was a model I putted well with. I love the Seven line from Odyssey, and so a Toe Up Seven really should be a great fit for me. I'll update this thread with my thoughts, and I figured this could be a place for the Torque-Balanced advocates to hang out.

I've been gaming a LAB since late December 2020 and have seen a decent improvement (1-2 putts less, per 9 holes). Not sure if it's a direct credit to the tech of the putter, or a nod to a better virtual fitting experience than I could find with Evnroll for example. It's not magically turning me into Jordan Speith levels of putting but it has me holing more "makeable" putts from 10' and in. I wanted to convert more birdies, and save more pars, and so far so good. Like others have said there's no one size fits all solution, but I'd be interested to see if the greater majority of folks didn't make more putts with a torque balanced putter.

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6 hours ago, yungkory said:

I've been gaming a LAB since late December 2020 and have seen a decent improvement (1-2 putts less, per 9 holes). Not sure if it's a direct credit to the tech of the putter, or a nod to a better virtual fitting experience than I could find with Evnroll for example. It's not magically turning me into Jordan Speith levels of putting but it has me holing more "makeable" putts from 10' and in. I wanted to convert more birdies, and save more pars, and so far so good. Like others have said there's no one size fits all solution, but I'd be interested to see if the greater majority of folks didn't make more putts with a torque balanced putter.

were you fit for your L.A.B. or did you buy it OTR?

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On a lighter note: does it even deserve the Seven name of you can't pick up the ball with the fangs?

 

More seriously, while we can debate whether the torque ideas are beneficial or not, they're definitely real. One of my other putters is a Stroke Lab R Ball with a slant hosel, same length and grip as my new Toe Up. I had my wife hand me each one while I had my eyes closed, and I could tell them apart by rocking them back and forth while feeling for any tendency to want to open and close.

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8 hours ago, yungkory said:

I've been gaming a LAB since late December 2020 and have seen a decent improvement (1-2 putts less, per 9 holes). Not sure if it's a direct credit to the tech of the putter, or a nod to a better virtual fitting experience than I could find with Evnroll for example. It's not magically turning me into Jordan Speith levels of putting but it has me holing more "makeable" putts from 10' and in. I wanted to convert more birdies, and save more pars, and so far so good. Like others have said there's no one size fits all solution, but I'd be interested to see if the greater majority of folks didn't make more putts with a torque balanced putter.

I was waiting for you to chime in since I can't add any recent comments on my L.A.B. until I get out on the course more this spring. I saw an immediate improvement in my putting switching from the Spider X to the L.A.B., but like you said, I'm not convinced it's all in the tech. In my case, I think the Press II grip ensuring a consistent shaft lean helps me more than the lie-angle balance. And, at the end of the day, after spending $700+ on a putter, I practiced a lot more. Maybe I would have seen the same improvement with just more practice with the Spider X? Tough to tell.

I actually wanted an Edel first, but there were no fitters around me and with COVID-restrictions I was not able to travel out of state (Chicagoland area would have been the easiest place to find an Edel fitter...).

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54 minutes ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

On a lighter note: does it even deserve the Seven name of you can't pick up the ball with the fangs?

 

More seriously, while we can debate whether the torque ideas are beneficial or not, they're definitely real. One of my other putters is a Stroke Lab R Ball with a slant hosel, same length and grip as my new Toe Up. I had my wife hand me each one while I had my eyes closed, and I could tell them apart by rocking them back and forth while feeling for any tendency to want to open and close.

Ha, I new that putter was suspect 😆. Any new putter I get must have pick-up capability.

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4 hours ago, StrokerAce said:

were you fit for your L.A.B. or did you buy it OTR?

I did their video "fitting" after @edingc posted his results were within a degree of each other (I think) when he did both online and in person. There's no in person option for me on island sadly.

2 hours ago, edingc said:

I was waiting for you to chime in since I can't add any recent comments on my L.A.B. until I get out on the course more this spring. I saw an immediate improvement in my putting switching from the Spider X to the L.A.B., but like you said, I'm not convinced it's all in the tech. In my case, I think the Press II grip ensuring a consistent shaft lean helps me more than the lie-angle balance. And, at the end of the day, after spending $700+ on a putter, I practiced a lot more. Maybe I would have seen the same improvement with just more practice with the Spider X? Tough to tell.

I actually wanted an Edel first, but there were no fitters around me and with COVID-restrictions I was not able to travel out of state (Chicagoland area would have been the easiest place to find an Edel fi

Length might be a large contributing factor to my improvement. Matt @ LAB noted that my eyes were nearly beyond the target line at address, and the extra inch brought me inside the line at address now. Feels like I can see the line a bit better, but could be purely placebo.

At the end of the day, I notice that I'm typically 1-2 putts better than I was (on average) after putting the LAB in play, so I'm happy. Think I've only had 2 3-putts in my last 10 rounds which I'm thrilled with considering my proximity to hole isn't very great.

Small sample size still but here's a snap of where I play most. I got the LAB at the end of December so I'm not sure exactly which day it made its maiden voyage, but definitely haven't gamed anything else in 2021:

334DD040-07F5-423F-B634-D8E644FF42F1.png.de1976feadadb6cb4e39800a92fdc375.png

3F164C85-C58C-4610-8331-15EAC36DD5C1.png.f37f11e7c2137593c7caf67443628163.png

Yesterday was an anomaly, I put two recovery chip shots less than a foot from the cup and had 1-putts on the first 5 holes. Also 1/28 was when I made my ace so that's also kinda a statistical outlier.

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Driver: :taylormade-small: SIM Max 10.5 Fujikura Motore X F3 5S

3w/5w: :titelist-small: TSi2 Tensei AV Raw Blue 75S

4h: :mizuno-small: CLK 22* Hybrid Tensei CK Pro Blue 80HY S

Irons 5-PW: :mizuno-small: JPX 919 Forged Nippon Modus 3 Tour 105 S

Wedges: :cleveland-small: RTX Zipcore Tour Rack 50, 54, 58 Modus 3 115 Wedge

Putter: L.A.B. DF 2.1, 34.5", BGT Stability Tour, 71* lie angle, Press II 3* Grip

Ball: :bridgestone-small: Tour B X

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