Fitting not helping

[Bradka13]

Has anyone had a fitting that did not yield expected results?  I had my first fitting several years ago and ended up buying new (very expensive for me) irons.  My handicap went up since the fitting.  To be fair, the timing of this was also when I started playing a bit less as well but I guess I was expecting to see a bigger difference in my game after the fitting.  I was fit for a new driver a little over a year ago and I would say that part of my game has been better since.

[matt_puttercup]

A buddy of mine who works in the golf equipment industry had this to say about fittings: they’ll fit you for whatever swing you had that day. So it stands to reason that the less consistent your swing is, the more likely it is your fitting doesn’t hold up, which would affect beginners more.

[cnosil]

8 hours ago, Bradka13 said:

Has anyone had a fitting that did not yield expected results?  

  My handicap went up since the fitting.  

What were the expected results?   Based on the second line I quoted you wanted a lower handicap.   IMO, we get clubs that are fit to our swing to maximize our ability to hit a consistent stock stock; basically get good launch conditions.  While that is important, it doesn’t mean you will play good or better golf.  For example if you have poor course management strategies or can’t hit partial distances fit clubs probably won’t make much difference.  Getting you clubs fit is only addresses one aspect of the game.   

[RickyBobby_PR]

Sounds like an expectation that fitted clubs equals better golf. That’s not reality.

Fittings out a club in the golfers hand that works for their swing and doesn’t require the golfer to fight the club to execute a particular shot they are trying to acheive.

The fitting will help reduce the dispersion especially on the big miss. The golfer still has to execute each golf shot and get the ball in the hole. As an example if someone struggles with short game and putting a new fitted driver isn’t going to fix that lack of skill around the greens, an iron fitting won’t either. The right wedges may make it easier but the golfer still has to hit the shot.

 

[Bradka13]

A couple replies suggest that my expectations of playing better golf (measured by lower scores) may have not been realistic.  This seems odd to me.  Why would anyone spend money on a fitting and new clubs if the result is not an improvement in their game?  I understand that a fitting will not magically fix all areas of your game and getting new irons won't make me putt better.  However, the fitting won't make me putt worse either.  So, if the goal of a fitting is to "reduce the dispersion" of shots and "maximize our ability to hit a consistent stock shot" it seems logical to me that the results of those outcomes would ultimately be lower scores.

[cnosil]

10 minutes ago, Bradka13 said:

A couple replies suggest that my expectations of playing better golf (measured by lower scores) may have not been realistic.  This seems odd to me.  Why would anyone spend money on a fitting and new clubs if the result is not an improvement in their game?  I understand that a fitting will not magically fix all areas of your game and getting new irons won't make me putt better.  However, the fitting won't make me putt worse either.  So, if the goal of a fitting is to "reduce the dispersion" of shots and "maximize our ability to hit a consistent stock shot" it seems logical to me that the results of those outcomes would ultimately be lower scores.

so let’s answer your original question: yes, people complain all the time of being fit and not getting better.   This goes with the argument that higher handicaps see no benefit from fittings due to swing inconsistencies.  

yes, we want to score better.  Irons that have been fit, in theory give us better gapping (if you did gapping testing and made appropriate adjustments), more consistent distance control., and tighter dispersion   I asked what were your expectations because I know nothing about your game.  You could be hitting the irons better but because you aim at flags or don’t know distances or dispersion you aren’t scoring better.   You have also said you are playing less golf and I’ll assume practicing less too.   Your expectation is lower scores so dig deep into the numbers and present information that leads to your evaluation of poorer performance:  

were you fit for your previous clubs?  I will assume that side by side comparison to prior and new irons showed some kind of improvement   What was the improvement?  

Are you hitting the new clubs worse than the old clubs on the course? What is worse? 

What is the range of scores prior to the fitting and after the fitting?

what is strokes gained with your irons before and after fitting?

what is strokes gains for tee shots, short game and putting? This is important because other areas could be impacted by better iron play. Hitting more greens could expose more weakness in putting.  Or getting closer to the hole could expose short game deficiencies.   

what is your on course dispersion pattern with the irons before and after fitting?

what other metrics are you keeping to evaluate iron performance?  

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, Bradka13 said:

A couple replies suggest that my expectations of playing better golf (measured by lower scores) may have not been realistic.  This seems odd to me.  Why would anyone spend money on a fitting and new clubs if the result is not an improvement in their game? 

Because fitted clubs doesn’t equal better scores. No club can do that. As golfers we have to execute the shots we are attempting. Even then best don’t do that all time. So there’s no guarantee that a fitted club is going to result in lower scores immediately or over time. Course management, shot execution are still vital and someone with bad course management isn’t going to get better with fitted clubs. If one has swing flaws and inconsistency in their ability to make the same compensations each time then scores aren’t going to really get better. 
 

Fitted equipment is there to help the golfer make their current swing easier and not have to fight the club because the fitted club works with their swing. We all want to get better, fitted clubs help us try but we still need to manage our game and swing and work to be better.

1 hour ago, Bradka13 said:

So, if the goal of a fitting is to "reduce the dispersion" of shots and "maximize our ability to hit a consistent stock shot" it seems logical to me that the results of those outcomes would ultimately be lower scores.

It has the potential but as I’ve said several times it doesn’t guarantee you’ll hit the shot you are trying on that your bad swing still won’t produce a really bad shot. We see pros all the time hit shots way offline and they not only have fitted clubs but they are really good at the game. Fittings are to try and help make the game a little easier but they won’t score for you 

[Prodigal Duffer]

I got fit last November and have generally been playing worse than before I got fit. I am confident it's not the clubs, but me swinging like an idiot with my irons. I think the benefit of the fit is that I am more comfortable with these irons, as they are a different shaft length and flex. At the end of the day, I still have to make a good swing with them to get results, and I haven't been living up to my end of the bargain there. When I have made good swings, though, the results have been very good.

You said you're playing less. I would bet $1.00 that more reps would lead to better results. Or maybe you (like me) need some coaching intervention. Regardless, I'm sorry to hear that you feel like you did not get the value you desire.

[Bradka13]

4 hours ago, cnosil said:

were you fit for your previous clubs?  I will assume that side by side comparison to prior and new irons showed some kind of improvement   What was the improvement?  

Are you hitting the new clubs worse than the old clubs on the course? What is worse? 

What is the range of scores prior to the fitting and after the fitting?

what is strokes gained with your irons before and after fitting?

what is strokes gains for tee shots, short game and putting? This is important because other areas could be impacted by better iron play. Hitting more greens could expose more weakness in putting.  Or getting closer to the hole could expose short game deficiencies.   

what is your on course dispersion pattern with the irons before and after fitting?

what other metrics are you keeping to evaluate iron performance?  

Those are interesting questions.  The fact that I don't know the answer to most of them might be one of the issues of the lack of improvement.  My previous irons were not fit for me.  During the fitting they showed me that the dispersion of where I was making contact with the ball on the clubface was significantly improved with the new irons compared to the old and the gapping was also improved.  Other than that, I don't know that I was able to see any actual improvements on the course.  I don't have data to back this up, but it seems like I have hit a lot fewer greens since I got the new irons.  I am not saying this is a direct result of the fitting, but I think maybe has more to do with what matt_puttercup said about a fitting only fitting to the swing you had that day and my swing inconsistencies coming into play due to my decrease in time with the game.  That was the reason for my original question.  Trying to determine if anyone else had had an adverse effect on their scores after a fitting or if it was more likely that my results were solely due to lack of reps.

But now I am also interested in some of the comments saying that lower scores should not necessarily be an expectation of a club fitting.  The examples given were deficiencies in other areas of your game also affecting scoring such as poor putting or course management.  I am struggling to see the logic in that.  I agree that there are other factors to scoring and new irons are not going to help putting or course management, but it also shouldn't hurt putting or course management.  So, if everything else stays the same, is it not logical to expect better scoring after a fitting?

[Bradka13]

1 hour ago, Prodigal Duffer said:

I got fit last November and have generally been playing worse than before I got fit. I am confident it's not the clubs, but me swinging like an idiot with my irons. I think the benefit of the fit is that I am more comfortable with these irons, as they are a different shaft length and flex. At the end of the day, I still have to make a good swing with them to get results, and I haven't been living up to my end of the bargain there. When I have made good swings, though, the results have been very good.

You said you're playing less. I would bet $1.00 that more reps would lead to better results. Or maybe you (like me) need some coaching intervention. Regardless, I'm sorry to hear that you feel like you did not get the value you desire.

I'm not even saying that I don't feel I got the value from the fitting as I also think the results are more likely tied to my reduced reps.  I was more just curious if I should completely remove the thought that the clubs might share in the blame or if others had experienced unexpected results that couldn't be explained by other factors.

[RickyBobby_PR]

32 minutes ago, Bradka13 said:

am not saying this is a direct result of the fitting, but I think maybe has more to do with what matt_puttercup said about a fitting only fitting to the swing you had that day and my swing inconsistencies coming into play due to my decrease in time with the game. 

While that is true a good fitter will be asking questions throughout the fitting about the ball flight, what you see, what you feel, is that your normal shot, is that your normal miss, what’s your big miss, how’s your game, what do you do well and not so well. The users information to for you for you good days and bad days.

When it comes to inconsistencies that’s not in our swing but in our compensations for our swings. When we struggle to make the same compensations we have a not so great striking day. 
 

If I play 3 days in a row fatigue sets in and I can get out of whack and end up with lots of blocks and pushes. The clubs can’t help that.

36 minutes ago, Bradka13 said:

But now I am also interested in some of the comments saying that lower scores should not necessarily be an expectation of a club fitting.  The examples given were deficiencies in other areas of your game also affecting scoring such as poor putting or course management.  I am struggling to see the logic in that.  I agree that there are other factors to scoring and new irons are not going to help putting or course management, but it also shouldn't hurt putting or course management.  So, if everything else stays the same, is it not logical to expect better scoring after a fitting?

If one doesn’t fix making bad decides on the course aka bad course management a fitted club isn’t going to make that any better. Example if one is prone to hitting hero shots and they don’t work out all the time and they keep doing that a fitted club isn’t gojng to help them.

If one 3 putts a lot a fitted club isn’t going to make them better and as cnosil pointed out if you start hitting more greens you may be an even worse putter because of proximity to the hole compared to missing a green and chipping it on.

It’s why the stats that cnosil mentioned are important to track. Score is only part of it. Knowing how that score is achieved and has anything improved after the fitting  or not. Without data you have no idea if you are actually improving or not.

I’ve had rounds where I hit the ball well and didn’t score well and days where I didn’t hit it as good and had a better score. What caused that? Without tracking data I wouldn’t know 

[Bradka13]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I’ve had rounds where I hit the ball well and didn’t score well and days where I didn’t hit it as good and had a better score. What caused that? Without tracking data I wouldn’t know 

I'm sure anyone who has golfed much at all has experienced similar things.  I've never taken the next step and asked why.  Do you, or anyone, know an easy way to start tracking some of these stats?

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, Bradka13 said:

 I don't have data to back this up, but it seems like I have hit a lot fewer greens since I got the new irons. 

 Trying to determine if anyone else had had an adverse effect on their scores after a fitting or if it was more likely that my results were solely due to lack of reps.

But now I am also interested in some of the comments saying that lower scores should not necessarily be an expectation of a club fitting.  The examples given were deficiencies in other areas of your game also affecting scoring such as poor putting or course management.  I am struggling to see the logic in that.  I agree that there are other factors to scoring and new irons are not going to help putting or course management, but it also shouldn't hurt putting or course management.  So, if everything else stays the same, is it not logical to expect better scoring after a fitting?

As I said before,  if you search golf forums you will find lots of people that complain about having worse results after fittings,  say fittings are a waste of time,  that our swings are inconsistent and the fitting is only good for that days swing, etc.   That's why I ask about expectations and potential impact to other areas of the game.   Let's say your dispersion pattern for the irons was narrowed by 5 yards;  that is significant improvement from the fitting,  but that 5 yards might not translate into improved scoring.  

So I'll tie this to course management and other areas.   I don't know how you approach the game when you are on the course but you have these great new clubs that you feel will make you play better.   As  result maybe you take more hero type shots or you aim at short sided pins.....you know the clubs are fitted so I should be able to hit those shots.    The short sided miss now results in more greens missed so I not am putting more pressure on my short game which may or may not be a strength.    You could be hitting more greens which now means you are putting from farther away and your long putting skills aren't that good so you 3 putt more.   

This is why keeping stats becomes important;  it allows you to better understand where the problems are occurring.  

[cnosil]

9 minutes ago, Bradka13 said:

I'm sure anyone who has golfed much at all has experienced similar things.  I've never taken the next step and asked why.  Do you, or anyone, know an easy way to start tracking some of these stats?

If you want to do the basics and not get into something like shot scope or arccos then you can track things a few ways.

1.  for each hole, are you able to hit a shot that has a chance to hit the green in regulation or did you take a penalty/have to pitch back into the fairway,  GIR,  near green in regulation (easy chip or putt from fringe or shortish grass),  up and down success from off green, putt distances to get make rates from each distance or do SG metrics.  Track these numbers over time.     

2.  you could do the tiger 5 in excel and track over time.    https://golf.com/instruction/tiger-woods-genius-lowering-scores-play-smart/

 

Edited March 27 by cnosil

[RickyBobby_PR]

21 minutes ago, Bradka13 said:

I'm sure anyone who has golfed much at all has experienced similar things.  I've never taken the next step and asked why.  Do you, or anyone, know an easy way to start tracking some of these stats?

Basic stats are fairways hit i don’t like this one and prefer to score on a scale of 1-5 if I had a shot to advance the ball towards the green. 1 being I had a shot at the green and down to 5 where I had no shot and either had to go sideways or backwards.

Greens in regulation

putts per round. Another one I don’t like because depending on greens hit the numbers might change

up amd down

total strokes including putts from 125 and in.

more detailed stuff you can look into tracking strokes gained 

[TJ Hall]

21 minutes ago, Bradka13 said:

I'm sure anyone who has golfed much at all has experienced similar things.  I've never taken the next step and asked why.  Do you, or anyone, know an easy way to start tracking some of these stats?

I have a little notebook with me on the course tracking a few things:  

- Fairway Hit (and what club (driver, 3W, 3h or other))
- Green Hit
- Putts
- Good Tee Shot (ie, was it hit somewhere decent to play from)
- Lost Balls

Right or wrong, this is what I decided to track in order to see where I was struggling…found my greens were down, some of which were poor ball striking, but also wasn’t putting myself in position off the tee.

This works for me now, may change over time if something else is needed.

[Preeway]

4 hours ago, Bradka13 said:

I'm sure anyone who has golfed much at all has experienced similar things.  I've never taken the next step and asked why.  Do you, or anyone, know an easy way to start tracking some of these stats?

As someone who got fit into clubs 18 months ago, I’ll jump in with this perspective. 
I was playing my Ping Eye 2s from 1990 until 2022. I was playing to a 8 handicap at the time with my old gear. I was also keeping basic stats like GIR, Fairways and total putts.   
Jump forward to 2022 and I saw zero movement in score for the first few months. In fact, I was struggling to hit my 4 and 5 iron to save my life. It took a lot of reps to get comfortable with my new irons and slowly I began to see improvement in the stats I was keeping. I then began to keep better stats and slowly watched my handicap creep lower until I reached 2.9 in November 2023. 
My point in this is to not rely on fitted clubs alone to improve your game. Start tracking stats to know where to focus your practice and slowly you’ll see it all come together. Also, I found a good stat tracking notebook here. 
 

https://alwaysgrindgolf.com/?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwh4-wBhB3EiwAeJsppEGHQByriDvEATDsSOkUY98KjBfDZ3_q7B-jSiJjWet00B0DmRG1MhoCJqEQAvD_BwE

[Bradka13]

I truly appreciate the suggestions on how to start tracking some things to try and figure out why I am not golfing as well as I do when I picture the shots in my head!

[Preeway]

Tracking stats doesn’t have to be complicated but the more detail you can add the better. I’ve begun tracking (when I don’t forget) the length of my first putts to have a better idea of just how accurate I am with my approach shots. It’s helping me focus more attention on practice with my 7-pw to have more putts inside 30’. 

[Stuka44]

On 3/28/2024 at 2:13 PM, Preeway said:

I’ve begun tracking (when I don’t forget) the length of my first putts to have a better idea of just how accurate I am with my approach shots.

I do this also, and use a free site called  freegolftracker.com .  This site compiles a chart which then shows you the percentage of 1,2, and 3 putts from the distances you input.  This is how I am certain that dedicated practice has improved my make percentages, especially under 10 feet, without purchasing an expensive putter, over the last 3 years.

For make percentages on putts, and proximity as preeway indicated, I would suggest to you OP that keeping of stats is essential to be sure that what you may believe is helping you, or has helped you.... practice, new equipment, swing changes, ARE ACTUALLY HELPING YOU.

I believe(which with practice) can be done quickly without slowing up anyone especially those playing behind you that pacing off your first putt, is highly beneficial.  Think about other sports.  You have definitive, or intrinsic, distances to work with.  Tennis:  The court is defined by

On 3/28/2024 at 12:03 PM, Bradka13 said:

I truly appreciate the suggestions on how to start tracking some things to try and figure out why I am not golfing as well as I do when I picture the shots in my head!

lines. You can hit a soft forehand, with just a little topspin, and keep it in play.  A much harder shot requires that you hit it with much more topspin, or it will never go in.  Basketball.  Is the force behind your jump shots random?  NO...  The lines on the court, and knowing the dimensions of the court, intrinsically let you know how far you are from the hoop, and you apply the right amount of force based on repetition.  Do you have to pause and work out a calculation, NO you just put up the shot.   How often does a shot from near the foul line(15 feet) which you intrinsically know, come up half way, or do you fire it over the backboard...NOT VERY OFTEN.

I submit that after dedicated practice, and repeating my putting stroke over and over, that  the next most important thing I have done is to pace off my first putts.  I believe it has helped me groove pace control, over the last 3 years, knowing when a putt is actually 28 feet, and not just a guess of, well this is a 20 some footer(no lines on the green).   Basketball players intrinsically know the force behind a shot from the top of the key, because instinctively they know it must be harder than a shot from the free throw line, but softer than a 3 pointer, and they know they are by the top of the key because it is marked the same on every basketball court.

[mbrodeur86]

On 3/27/2024 at 12:10 AM, Bradka13 said:

Has anyone had a fitting that did not yield expected results?  I had my first fitting several years ago and ended up buying new (very expensive for me) irons.  My handicap went up since the fitting.  To be fair, the timing of this was also when I started playing a bit less as well but I guess I was expecting to see a bigger difference in my game after the fitting.  I was fit for a new driver a little over a year ago and I would say that part of my game has been better since.

For myself I got fitted for a driver about 4 years ago. I was driving it really well... until I wasn't. Was it the club? Yes and no. There might have been a physical issue with the driver after 4 years of using it but I can tell you my swing changed. I lost the swing I had when I got fitted and started struggling. After 4 years, and with the knowledge I picked up from that fitting, I was able to fit myself for a new driver and I am hitting the driver better than I ever have! So I definitely believe you can "out-fit" your fitted clubs with swing changes and other factors.