Optimum ball launch conditions

[Blade]

I'm sure everyone has seen different charts for optimum launch angles and spin numbers for given ball speeds to maximize carry and roll. A thought just occurred to me though. I would guess those numbers are calculated at sea level. I live at 6600 ft. Most courses I play are a bit lower at 5000-5500 ft. I'm just curious now that the thought popped into my head. Do LMs like Trackman and Flightscope have altitude parameters that can account for local elevation if calculating flight inside?

 

I'm sure it's not like you would want to get fit for a different driver if you went on a trip to play at a different altitude or anything. But it does seem like the best spin rates and launch angles would change. (Just my OCD about numbers, specs, and such kicking in I guess! ) More curious than anything.

[JBones]

I can't answer the questions about altitude, but I have really been looking into optimal launch conditions. I know with my SS, I should be producing 300+yd drives on a regular basis. I've come to the conclusion that I'm going to have to pony up the cash for a proper fitting and I'm probably going to have to spend quite a bit of time dialing something in. I have three driver swings, that vary by 10mph; a must hit FW swing at 115mph, a normal swing of 120mph, and a grip it and rip it swing at 125mph. I want a set up that is going to give me these distances for those swings (assuming it's a good swing) 270-280/290-300/310+. A low spin shaft is getting me in the 2700-2800rpm range, but my launch is still way too high (only averaging 4-6yds of roll). I'm going to wait for the Adams Super LS to hit the store before I go for a fitting, because I want to try that. I'm definitely going to go adjustable and probably 8.5*, so I can adjust for more roll in the summer and more carry when it's wetter. My wife has promised to work a full driver fitting into our budget before next spring.

[Blade]

From what I've seen based only on Optishot for whatever that's worth, my swing varies from 105 to 110, occasionally 115, but not much more than that and I don't always time it good enough to get that even if I want to. Last summer on one round I hit one 300 and one 310. That was measured with the gps in the cart. The 310 had no roll. It landed into a hill in thick grass. But it was an elevated tee. I think that course is right about a mile high. At sea level I'm thinking it may have been a 280 yd drive? Not sure. If your swing is that fast, you should be at least as long as what you're estimating. Come play here! It'll make you longer instantly!

[revkev]

As is being indentified by this thread there is more to it than swing speed - there's launch angle and spin that are often dictated by swing being up (+) or down (-) at impact. Tiger Woods and Bubba Watson have the same swing speeds - around 122 - Bubba is approximately 20 yards longer because of his positive swing path through the ball while Tiger has a negative one.

[Tony Covey MGS]

I'm sure everyone has seen different charts for optimum launch angles and spin numbers for given ball speeds to maximize carry and roll. A thought just occurred to me though. I would guess those numbers are calculated at sea level. I live at 6600 ft. Most courses I play are a bit lower at 5000-5500 ft. I'm just curious now that the thought popped into my head. Do LMs like Trackman and Flightscope have altitude parameters that can account for local elevation if calculating flight inside?

 

I'm sure it's not like you would want to get fit for a different driver if you went on a trip to play at a different altitude or anything. But it does seem like the best spin rates and launch angles would change. (Just my OCD about numbers, specs, and such kicking in I guess! ) More curious than anything.

 

I can't speak to Trackman, but as of moment that these keystrokes are hitting the virtual page, FlightScope does have a setting to account for altitude during indoor use. That said, they don't have any sort of setting to account for humidity and temperature, which are also extremely important when trying to normalize between indoor and out.

 

Regarding ideal numbers... add to the list of misconceptions the notion that individual optimum launch conditions are determined by ball speed. It's the conventional wisdom, and is often the case where ball flight laws are concerned, it's in all likelihood wrong.

 

Research gleaned from Trackman data suggests that 'optimum' is dictated by a number of factors, the most overlooked of which is angle of attack. As was mentioned all ready, two golfers can generate the same amount of ball speed, however; ideal launch conditions (spin, launch angle) can vary tremendously based on the angle of attack.

[Blade]

I can't speak to Trackman, but as of moment that these keystrokes are hitting the virtual page, FlightScope does have a setting to account for altitude during indoor use. That said, they don't have any sort of setting to account for humidity and temperature, which are also extremely important when trying to normalize between indoor and out.

 

Regarding ideal numbers... add to the list of misconceptions the notion that individual optimum launch conditions are determined by ball speed. It's the conventional wisdom, and is often the case where ball flight laws are concerned, it's in all likelihood wrong.

 

Research gleaned from Trackman data suggests that 'optimum' is dictated by a number of factors, the most overlooked of which is angle of attack. As was mentioned all ready, two golfers can generate the same amount of ball speed, however; ideal launch conditions (spin, launch angle) can vary tremendously based on the angle of attack.

I was thinking about the temperature and humidity variables the other day. I found a link to Trackman's Driver Fitting Chart on Wishon's site.

 

http://wishongolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/TrackMan-Driver-Optimization_2010.pdf

 

While it shows optimums based on angle of attack for given ball speeds,there's nothing about altitude, temp., and humidity. That chart is handy to refer to though.

[BK in TEXAS]

As was mentioned all ready, two golfers can generate the same amount of ball speed, however; ideal launch conditions (spin, launch angle) can vary tremendously based on the angle of attack.

I was thinking about the temperature and humidity variables the other day. I found a link to Trackman's Driver Fitting Chart on Wishon's site.

 

http://wishongolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/TrackMan-Driver-Optimization_2010.pdf

 

OK...I have a question after looking at that chart. It appears that for every swing speed, a more positive angle of attack produces significantly bigger drives.

 

So.......

1) Is that true?

If so...

2) Should a guy like you or me work to adjust their swing to take advantage of it?

[Blade]

OK...I have a question after looking at that chart. It appears that for every swing speed, a more positive angle of attack produces significantly bigger drives.

 

So.......

1) Is that true?

If so...

2) Should a guy like you or me work to adjust their swing to take advantage of it?

Yea, it gets your launch up with a lot lower spin. I already do it which is why I launch it so high with a lower lofted driver. I went to 9° with a low launch tour shaft and still hit it too high if I'm not careful.

[Matt Saternus]

OK...I have a question after looking at that chart. It appears that for every swing speed, a more positive angle of attack produces significantly bigger drives.

 

So.......

1) Is that true?

If so...

2) Should a guy like you or me work to adjust their swing to take advantage of it?

 

Generally speaking, a more positive AoA will produce longer drives because the ball will launch higher and spin less. As to whether or not you should work on it...hard to say. If you current AoA is severely negative, then there's probably substantial distance to be gained from making the change. Same if your current launch numbers are way off of optimal. Is it worth trying to change from an AoA of zero to +4? Depends on what you want to accomplish.

[BK in TEXAS]

Is it worth trying to change from an AoA of zero to +4? Depends on what you want to accomplish.

Same thing we all are.....more yards with the same accuracy

 

I should go hit a launch monitor. Just wish there was one closer.

[Matt Saternus]

Changing AoA changes path which changes face angle needed to produce same shot. That's why I don't really go in with these guys who say you need a +5 AoA: maintaining accuracy and speed can be difficult.

[revkev]

That there are guys on tour who play with a negative AoA tells you its not so simple to change. Mine is plus 3 with my normal swing which is why I'm able to get some distance despite my very average (low 90's) clubhead speed. Every time I try and make it more positive I end up hitting lots of blocks and push fades - 2 or 3 to 1 of those to straight long or slight draw drives - the few extra yards aren't worth the inconsistency.

[Matt Saternus]

Yup. Last tour average I saw had driver AoA at 1 or 2 down. Then again when you can swing the club head at 110+, you don't necessarily need to get every ounce of distance out of your swing. it's all a matter of priorities.

[BK in TEXAS]

Changing AoA changes path which changes face angle needed to produce same shot. That's why I don't really go in with these guys who say you need a +5 AoA: maintaining accuracy and speed can be difficult.

I wish you lived a couple hours closer.

 

Anyway...just for sits and giggles.,...what do you do....tee it higher and move it up in the stance a bit?

[Matt Saternus]

That's certainly what the magazines will tell you. Not necessarily bad advice, but there are some guys (like T) who could put the ball on top of a telephone pole and they'd still hit down on it. Getting a positive AoA has more to do with the way you use your body in the downswing.

[Blade]

I wish you lived a couple hours closer.

 

Anyway...just for sits and giggles.,...what do you do....tee it higher and move it up in the stance a bit?

Like Matt said, it's more how you use your body. The low point of my swing with a driver is about in front of my right foot. With irons, it's below my left shoulder. It would be hard to put into words to describe how though.

[BK in TEXAS]

That's certainly what the magazines will tell you. Not necessarily bad advice, but there are some guys (like T) who could put the ball on top of a telephone pole and they'd still hit down on it. Getting a positive AoA has more to do with the way you use your body in the downswing.

 

Like Matt said, it's more how you use your body. The low point of my swing with a driver is about in front of my right foot. With irons, it's below my left shoulder. It would be hard to put into words to describe how though.

 

All very interesting.

 

After push-slicing the first 3 balls way out to Detroit I started smacking them well. No idea on distance or spin though since it's 7Ëš here and I'm driving them into pine trees. I know I'm pissing into the wind without a launch monitor though. Next time I'm out towards Minneapolis I'll stop by Golf Galaxy.

[revkev]

You have to really work to keep your body 'behind' the ball - move it forward, tee it up - but experiement with it before you try it on the course because the first few times you're very likely to hit pushes or blocks or block fades.

 

There are other remedies though - negative AOA means more spin but you can offset that with equipment - if you're getting what you want out of your swing - reasonable clubhead speed and accuracy I wouldn't change the swing for a few yards - I'd look at your equipment - its really not worth it to hit it farther if you don't hit it straight as well.

[BK in TEXAS]

its really not worth it to hit it farther if you don't hit it straight as well.

Could not agree more.

[Blade]

its really not worth it to hit it farther if you don't hit it straight as well.

Absolutely! Reducing backspin can make for longer drives with the right ball speed and launch angle. But it lets any mistake in face angle and path have a bigger effect and tilt the spin axis more than it would with more backspin. Heck 220 yards in the middle of the fairway is better than 300 in the woods or water. Not to say that's how much difference A of A would make, just sayin'.

[JMiller]

If you know your ball speed you can use this to play around with launch angle and spin to optimize your carry / total distance, it's pretty close to what I have seen on all launch monitors that I have been on. http://www.flightscope.com/index.php/Technology-Explained/trajectory-optimizer.html

 

plugging in the following for example

Launch speed: 165

Launch angle: 12

Spin Axis: 0

Spin: 2500

Carry = 279 yards

 

Launch speed: 165

Launch angle: 14

Spin Axis: 0

Spin: 2500

Carry = 284 yards

 

you gain an extra 5 yards carry just by increasing the launch angle by 2* cool if you ask me to toy around with.

[Tony Covey MGS]

That's certainly what the magazines will tell you. Not necessarily bad advice, but there are some guys (like T) who could put the ball on top of a telephone pole and they'd still hit down on it. Getting a positive AoA has more to do with the way you use your body in the downswing.

 

I'd like to think that if the ball was actually teed up on a telephone pole, I might be able to get back to 0.

[revkev]

Okay when is the test taking place? What will the head/shaft specs be and who's doing the write up for T driving the ball off of a telephone poll?

 

Can't Wait!

[Matt Saternus]

I'd like to think that if the ball was actually teed up on a telephone pole, I might be able to get back to 0.

 

Telephone pole + Roger Cleveland = 0* AoA

[BK in TEXAS]

I'd like to think that if the ball was actually teed up on a telephone pole, I might be able to get back to 0.

 

 

 

Okay when is the test taking place? What will the head/shaft specs be and who's doing the write up for T driving the ball off of a telephone poll?

 

Can't Wait!

 

Ya but you'd need a 20 foot shaft. We ALL know a longer shaft means longer drives so it wouldn't be a fair test

[JBones]

This thread makes me really excited to go get properly fit for a driver; just waiting on my fantasy football championship winnings and the launch of the Super LS.

[JBones]

If you know your ball speed you can use this to play around with launch angle and spin to optimize your carry / total distance, it's pretty close to what I have seen on all launch monitors that I have been on. http://www.flightscope.com/index.php/Technology-Explained/trajectory-optimizer.html

Thats a pretty cool link. Plugging in my current numbers (167mph, 17*, 2650rpm) I get a 290 carry and I know from hitting on the Flightscope that that only gives me 3-4 yds of roll. When I bring those numbers down to where I'm hoping to get them with a fitting (167mph, 14-15*, 2400-2500rpm) it gives me a 289-291 carry and what I'm hoping will be an additional 10-15yds of roll.

[Blade]

If you know your ball speed you can use this to play around with launch angle and spin to optimize your carry / total distance, it's pretty close to what I have seen on all launch monitors that I have been on. http://www.flightscope.com/index.php/Technology-Explained/trajectory-optimizer.html

 

plugging in the following for example

Launch speed: 165

Launch angle: 12

Spin Axis: 0

Spin: 2500

Carry = 279 yards

 

Launch speed: 165

Launch angle: 14

Spin Axis: 0

Spin: 2500

Carry = 284 yards

 

you gain an extra 5 yards carry just by increasing the launch angle by 2* cool if you ask me to toy around with.

Thanks for the link! I put in 24* launch angle at 160 mph ball speed and it gave me 300 yds. I change it to 16* and it drops to 280. I thought 14-16* would be optimum. I have no problem hitting that high, especially with a fade. Maybe I should quit trying to lower it so much. That sure seems like it's too high though. Need to spend some quality time with my new driver and see what gives me the best results.

[JMiller]

Thanks for the link! I put in 24* launch angle at 160 mph ball speed and it gave me 300 yds. I change it to 16* and it drops to 280. I thought 14-16* would be optimum. I have to problem hitting that high. Maybe I should quit trying to lower it so much. That sure seems like it's too high though. Need to spend some quality time with my new driver and see what gives me the best results.

 

Blade, you have to consider spin rate with launch angle and ball speed. 165mph ball speed at 24* launch angle MUST have a SUPER LOW spin rate (impractical spin rate most the time) to make it optimal. Hell I would love 24* launch angle at 1000 RPM but it would never happen.

 

For people that have a ball speed of 150 or lower, you just want to launch the ball as high as you can to maximize distance. Anyone in the 165+ range it is a different ball game, then you need to launch the ball as high as possible while keeping the spin bellow 3000 RPM.

 

 

For me personally I have around a 162-168 (call it 165 average) ball speed. at -1 AoA i have about a 12* launch angle and around 2800 RPM, with +1 AoA I have about a 13.5* launch angle and 2400-2500rpm, 0* is somewhere in the middle. I come through impact with a driver pretty close to natural but varies between +1/-1 depending on what I'm attempting to do. I am pretty close to optimal on my driver for my AoA.

 

12* launch @ 165 ball speed w/ 2700 to 2800 RPM is 280 carry

13.5* launch @ 165 ball speed w/ 2400 to 2600 spin is 283 carry

 

The only way to increase my distance keeping the same ball speed and spin rate is to increase launch angle, but the hard part is keeping the spin rate down as you increase launch angle.