Increasing Loft, Not just a TaylorMade Buzz Item

[GolfSpy WD]

Haha, well said T!

[dru_]

 

You guys will just have to deal with someone not being onboard the TM love-fest with this thing. My gosh. People used to be able to have an opinion on a golf board. Times sure have changed. (Free trips and goodies? Yep.)

 

Actually, I don't think there is a single person here that isn't on board with 'I don't like the SLDR or the marketing message that goes with it.  It just feels wrong in my hand, and the message seems wrong to me'. 

 

The problem is that you keep making technical arguments that really don't make your case and stronger than what I just said.

 

I think if you look at my original post in this thread, you might notice a certain tone that Low and Forward needs more loft isn't specific to TaylorMade, with a very specific quote from Lefty.  Keep in mind that Big Bertha's Gravity core allows a lower CG, but it is not as far forward as the SLDR, and yet even it is pushing the loft up. 

 

Curiously, when I started this thread, I was a serious SLDR (and Bertha) doubter.  To me the whole message just reeked of buy new clubs because we have something revolutionary, trust us. I didn't trust them.  Honestly, I still don't trust the marketing people, it is their job to spin their product in the most favorable light.  I know for a fact that I am not alone in that last bit.

 

But here is the thing.  I got on a plane to have sunshine blown up my arse, or so I assumed.

 

I was wrong.  Before I got on the plane, the plan was to move to Callaway Apex irons in the spring, and a Ping G25 driver, with the wedges still to be determined. I came back quite sold on the SLDR and convinced that the marketing road ahead of TMaG may be a long slog, for all the reasons you have stated.

 

Since I got back, I've done some more experimenting, and found 3 very interesting things.

 

1. Lofting up has improved my carry on all four drivers I have on hand

2. Lofitng up with my older drivers does not improve my  overall distance due to flightpath and lack of roll

3. Lofting up on the other drivers, particularly my Adams Speedline jacked spin so badly that I was only landing about 10% of the balls within 20 yards of my intended landing zone.  That is a lot of missed fairways.

 

I have also talked to a lot of local golfers and they are reacting to the Loft Up message and the SLDR in much the way you are.  Some with rational complaints, others, not so much.   The net result, is that right now, there is probably no more divisive driver on the market, and I suspect MGS' upcoming ultimate driver review is only going to make things murkier based upon what I have seen with people hitting the SLDR off the shelf, adjusted to what they are hitting in their current tool.

 

As soon as the follow up from the Loft Up event gets posted, I will post my own thoughts, but I will preface that publish with this. I walked in the door of the Kingdom predisposed to NOT like then SLDR and yet another claim of 17 more yards.

[Mr_Theoo]

It's sad, actually pathetic really that when the guys here try and explain what is clearly a gaping hole in your understanding of ball flight dynamics that you resort to calling these guys fanboys. 

 

Seriously...you've been on this forum a week. You don't know the first thing about the guys here.

Here's what I've ascertained about you in the very limited time you've been on our forum:

 

Your understanding of the physics behind ball flight dynamics is rudimentary at best. That's fine. One of the greatest bits of wisdom I ever got from one of our members is this; It's okay not to know something.

 

But given how you respond to those whose knowledge exceeds your own (your unrelenting assertion that everyone who has a better understanding of low/forward as it relates to the actual physics of ball flight is a fanboy), further supports what I believe to be true:

 

You tried to get somewhere in this industry and came up short (no doubt why you harbor such resentment for Ryan - who by all accounts other than your own - is one of the most decent guys you're likely to meet. I know him...good dude. That's my read.  So that brings us to your situation. You're clearly resentful of those who have accomplished more and experienced more than you have within the golf industry. You don't handle that resentment well. You hide behind a keyboard (and I'm reasonably certain that keyboard is located in your mother's basement), and when somebody disagrees with you, you're the one who resorts to name calling.

 

Seriously, how old are you? Act like it, man.

 

In 3 years you are the single biggest infestation of negativity we've ever had on this forum. It's absolutely as mind-numbing as your unwavering dedication to the nonsense rolling off your fingertips.

 

Look...I know you're in a tough spot with your WRX ban an all, but man, I know a couple of the guys over there pretty well. I'd be happy to make a call. Maybe we can get your sentence reduced. 

 

[SPY ZINGER]

For the guys that have tried low & forward, lofted up, and gained yardage, we have a dance.

 

LoftUp Dance: https://vine.co/v/MaTLWqYiMIK

[Paul S]

Mr divots, I don't doubt that you could contribute well to MGS if a few rules are understood:

 

Nobody here cares about handicaps and abilities of others in the community. A single-digit HC is not a prerequisite for a valid contribution.

 

This site is not about selling the equipment with artificially sunny reviews. This might be the toughest goal, but I trust most of the folks here to remain objective. On that note, please do not be so negative under the guise of telling the truth. In reality, I think we all understand that most equipment is not drastically different from any other equipment. For that reason, most of our opinions are just that, opinions.

 

While I'm mentioning opinions... Please do not assume that opinions (yours or anyone else's) are facts. It's dangerous and arrogant to assume that you are right in all of your assertions. You can learn a lot by being willing to accept when you are wrong. That's not to say that I think everything you have said inthe past few days is wrong, though I hope that you will think more carefully before you speak. Think critically and try to hear what you are saying from someone else's perspective.

 

Now, most importantly, please show respect here if you hope to earn respect. I will not deny that there have been some aggressive responses toward you, but by introducing yourself to our community by slandering some highly respected friends of ours is completely unacceptable. Your actions in that thread showed an astonishing lack of professionalism that make it very evident how your venture into the industry failed. Respect, sir. You don't even have to earn it here, though you sure can lose it. Now, since I live in Minneapolis, I have met and golfed with Ryan and Stephen numerous times and I want you to understand that we are not buying their contribution here as a product. They have proven to be excellent members and friends here and I know that I don't speak for myself in saying that I do not appreciate your attack on them. If you have personal issues with any individuals here, please keep them personal.

 

So let's recap:

 

Be respectful to earn respect.

 

Be positive and honest.

 

Accept opinions as opinions, and understand that you may not be right all of the time. Think before you speak.

 

 

Mr Divots, you started off on the wrong foot here. As far as I'm concerned, you may try again, but you've got an uphill battle. Good luck, and I look forward to your future contribution.

[Mr_Theoo]

Mr divots, I don't doubt that you could contribute well to MGS if a few rules are understood:

 

Nobody here cares about handicaps and abilities of others in the community. A single-digit HC is not a prerequisite for a valid contribution.

 

This site is not about selling the equipment with artificially sunny reviews. This might be the toughest goal, but I trust most of the folks here to remain objective. On that note, please do not be so negative under the guise of telling the truth. In reality, I think we all understand that most equipment is not drastically different from any other equipment. For that reason, most of our opinions are just that, opinions.

 

While I'm mentioning opinions... Please do not assume that opinions (yours or anyone else's) are facts. It's dangerous and arrogant to assume that you are right in all of your assertions. You can learn a lot by being willing to accept when you are wrong. That's not to say that I think everything you have said inthe past few days is wrong, though I hope that you will think more carefully before you speak. Think critically and try to hear what you are saying from someone else's perspective.

 

Now, most importantly, please show respect here if you hope to earn respect. I will not deny that there have been some aggressive responses toward you, but by introducing yourself to our community by slandering some highly respected friends of ours is completely unacceptable. Your actions in that thread showed an astonishing lack of professionalism that make it very evident how your venture into the industry failed. Respect, sir. You don't even have to earn it here, though you sure can lose it. Now, since I live in Minneapolis, I have met and golfed with Ryan and Stephen numerous times and I want you to understand that we are not buying their contribution here as a product. They have proven to be excellent members and friends here and I know that I don't speak for myself in saying that I do not appreciate your attack on them. If you have personal issues with any individuals here, please keep them personal.

 

So let's recap:

 

Be respectful to earn respect.

 

Be positive and honest.

 

Accept opinions as opinions, and understand that you may not be right all of the time. Think before you speak.

 

 

Mr Divots, you started off on the wrong foot here. As far as I'm concerned, you may try again, but you've got an uphill battle. Good luck, and I look forward to your future contribution.

Great post Paul!

[HighFade]

Had you been fit previously? What gains did you see going to this club? And if you did realize any, how much was being in an ill-fitting driver previously? There are differences to be seen for sure for anyone who's driver is "off" in its specs for people.

 

I don't want to insinuate in any way anything is "crap" if I'm not fit into it. I just don't expect a loft/shaft change to drastically alter the way this club feels to me. I've tried two of the three lofts (just 12º to go) and two different shafts (Fuji stock and Oban White aftermarket.) When I can play 10.5 drivers in just about every other OEM's head, you can imagine how shocked I was feeling like a beginner with this thing in my hands. I honesly felt handicapped by this driver. NOTHING about it made me think, "ooh, if only I were optimized." And the one guy outright admitted he didn't like the thing either after hitting my G25 and said it was getting traded in the next day.

 

You guys will just have to deal with someone not being onboard the TM love-fest with this thing. My gosh. People used to be able to have an opinion on a golf board. Times sure have changed. (Free trips and goodies? Yep.)

===========================

 

This is a good point though: Of all of us who we're fit at TMAG, (and I believe we all gained yards) how many of us were hitting a club that was previously fit for us?

 

My meaning is: We all gained yards, but how much did we gain from the SLDR vs a proper fitting?...

I cam say with certainty that I was not properly fitted with my previous driver.

[Mr_Theoo]

===========================

 

This is a good point though: Of all of us who we're fit at TMAG, (and I believe we all gained yards) how many of us were hitting a club that was previously fit for us?

 

My meaning is: We all gained yards, but how much did we gain from the SLDR vs a proper fitting?...

I cam say with certainty that I was not properly fitted with my previous driver.

I was fit for my covert last year and I can say I've gained at least 10 yards of carry. As well as having much more control over my driver.

 

I can't wait to see how it performs here on Ohio where the air isn't as thick as it was in California.

[Walkerjames]

I was not previously fit for my Driver before TMAG.

[GolfSpy WD]

I wasn't fit before. Fittings are really expensive. I had tried a multitude of drivers, usually with stock shafts, and couldn't find anything better than what I had before.

 

That said, I gained yards with the stock shaft too. I would definitely be interested in knowing if one driver fitted was better in general than another.

[GolfSpy Barbajo]

Mr divots, I don't doubt that you could contribute well to MGS if a few rules are understood:

 

Nobody here cares about handicaps and abilities of others in the community. A single-digit HC is not a prerequisite for a valid contribution.

 

This site is not about selling the equipment with artificially sunny reviews. This might be the toughest goal, but I trust most of the folks here to remain objective. On that note, please do not be so negative under the guise of telling the truth. In reality, I think we all understand that most equipment is not drastically different from any other equipment. For that reason, most of our opinions are just that, opinions.

 

While I'm mentioning opinions... Please do not assume that opinions (yours or anyone else's) are facts. It's dangerous and arrogant to assume that you are right in all of your assertions. You can learn a lot by being willing to accept when you are wrong. That's not to say that I think everything you have said inthe past few days is wrong, though I hope that you will think more carefully before you speak. Think critically and try to hear what you are saying from someone else's perspective.

 

Now, most importantly, please show respect here if you hope to earn respect. I will not deny that there have been some aggressive responses toward you, but by introducing yourself to our community by slandering some highly respected friends of ours is completely unacceptable. Your actions in that thread showed an astonishing lack of professionalism that make it very evident how your venture into the industry failed. Respect, sir. You don't even have to earn it here, though you sure can lose it. Now, since I live in Minneapolis, I have met and golfed with Ryan and Stephen numerous times and I want you to understand that we are not buying their contribution here as a product. They have proven to be excellent members and friends here and I know that I don't speak for myself in saying that I do not appreciate your attack on them. If you have personal issues with any individuals here, please keep them personal.

 

So let's recap:

 

Be respectful to earn respect.

 

Be positive and honest.

 

Accept opinions as opinions, and understand that you may not be right all of the time. Think before you speak.

 

 

Mr Divots, you started off on the wrong foot here. As far as I'm concerned, you may try again, but you've got an uphill battle. Good luck, and I look forward to your future contribution.

 

You, sir, are a gentleman!

[dru_]

===========================

 

This is a good point though: Of all of us who we're fit at TMAG, (and I believe we all gained yards) how many of us were hitting a club that was previously fit for us?

 

My meaning is: We all gained yards, but how much did we gain from the SLDR vs a proper fitting?...

I cam say with certainty that I was not properly fitted with my previous driver.

 

I was, though it was oddly enough into a stock shaft cut 1 inch short.

[MarcKilgore]

For the guys that have tried low & forward, lofted up, and gained yardage, we have a dance.

 

LoftUp Dance: https://vine.co/v/MaTLWqYiMIK

 

I'm not going to lie - I enjoyed that immensely.

[GolfSpy Barbajo]

I'm not going to lie - I enjoyed that immensely.

 

Me too.  Flexible...

[Mr_Theoo]

For the guys that have tried low & forward, lofted up, and gained yardage, we have a dance.

 

LoftUp Dance: https://vine.co/v/MaTLWqYiMIK

She's from Ohio!

[JBones]

I was fit for my R1, even have the same shaft in the SLDR and in still hitting it farther. Took it to the Trackman today, 16.5° launch, 2300rpm spin (didn't have a low spin ball), 110' max height, 293 carry.......those were the averages. In the summer that probably equates to 320, which is 10-15yds longer than my properly fit R1.

[revkev]

Well this thread has gone viral. Prior to that T made a comment about a person knowing their AoA in order to be properly fit. Could we rewind to there and elaborate please? How so and what does it mean? Is there a chart out there somewhere that might help?

[Blade]

I've never seen a chart. Everyone will have different results even when two people have the same AoA. I think what he means is AoA is the biggest influencer on spin. If someone has a negative AoA, the spin will be high. So first step is find a shaft /head combo that can get that closer to ideal with that swing and then address launch angle. If you need more loft to get the LA up, hopefully the spin stays reasonable with the chosen shaft and head. If not, time to try something else.

 

That's how I took it anyway. Don't think he meant there's a formula to follow for a specific attack angle. Maybe he'll chime in on that again if I'm wrong.

[revkev]

I've never seen a chart. Everyone will have different results even when two people have the same AoA. I think what he means is AoA is the biggest influencer on spin. If someone has a negative AoA, the spin will be high. So first step is find a shaft /head combo that can get that closer to ideal with that swing and then address launch angle. If you need more loft to get the LA up, hopefully the spin stays reasonable with the chosen shaft and head. If not, time to try something else.

That's how I took it anyway. Don't think he meant there's a formula to follow for a specific attack angle. Maybe he'll chime in on that again if I'm wrong.

Oh he'll chime in if you're wrong don't worry about that.

 

Thanks though it doesn't happen often but it was one of the rare things that T has written that didn't make sense to me. He writes plenty of things that I haven't thought of or heard of but when I logic them out they make sense. This one not so much. I would think the numbers are the numbers, launch angle, spin rate. But I could be wrong. I have a wife who reminds of that on a daily basis.

[Mr_Theoo]

I was fit for my R1, even have the same shaft in the SLDR and in still hitting it farther. Took it to the Trackman today, 16.5° launch, 2300rpm spin (didn't have a low spin ball), 110' max height, 293 carry.......those were the averages. In the summer that probably equates to 320, which is 10-15yds longer than my properly fit R1.

There won't be a course that can contain you with numbers like that

[GolfSpy Barbajo]

But I could be wrong. I have a wife who reminds of that on a daily basis.

 

I think it's part of the job description...

 

Going to an SLDR fitting tomorrow - will compare AoA and spin rates.  I have a feeling I have an AoA better suited for a hammer and chisel than a driver swing...

[Hula Rock]

Thank God!........ back to the normal program.  

 

If it helps it helps, if it doesn't it doesn't, case closed.

[MarcKilgore]

I think it's part of the job description...

 

Going to an SLDR fitting tomorrow - will compare AoA and spin rates.  I have a feeling I have an AoA better suited for a hammer and chisel than a driver swing...

Totally Driven? Second Swing? Wondering where you are going and very interested in how you end up feeling about their knowledge of fitting the SLDR, since it sounds like it's a bit different. I got fitted last season for a driver/woods replacement at Totally Driven and they did an awesome job, but my swing mechanics have changed alot since last year and my flight is much lower. I'm thinking that I should probably get a new fitting to get my flight back up on my driver.

[Tony Covey MGS]

Well this thread has gone viral. Prior to that T made a comment about a person knowing their AoA in order to be properly fit. Could we rewind to there and elaborate please? How so and what does it mean? Is there a chart out there somewhere that might help?

 

Rev - Trackman has a ball flight optimization chart. I think it has actually been posted elsewhere in the forum, but I'll see if I can track it down for you in a bit.

 

Regarding Angle of Attack...

 

Basically, the more positive your angle of attack the greater your potential to maximize distance. If you take two golfers of identical capabilities (same swing speed, same impact point on the club, etc.) the one with the more positive angle of attack is going to create more distance.

 

Last I heard, Bubba Watson's AoA was in the ballpark of positive 8°. Most PGA Tour players are within 1.5° either way of zero, while the majority of amateur players are more negative.

 

There's been a lot of talk in this thread about driver loft (what's stamped...or probably more accurately, the actual loft of the driver face). What I'm going to say next may initially sound crazy:

 

While it's an important fitting variable, when it comes to ball flight itself, that actual loft is largely inconsequential. Let me explain...quickly...don't want to lose anybody.

 

We all deliver the club differently. Regardless of the actual loft of the driver, what we present to the ball is called Dynamic Loft. Dynamic Loft is the loft of the club at impact, and it's almost never the same as static loft.

 

What influences Dynamic Loft? Lots of stuff. Path (vertical and horizontal), face angle at impact, as well as the dynamics of the shaft (loading, unloading, release, etc.). The short answer is the D-Plane (if this is new to you, it's worth a google). It may also surprise some to learn that while swing speed plays a role in maximizing distance (obviously, guys who swing faster have the potential to hit it farther), there is no direct correlation between Swing Speed and Angle of Attack, which also means there is no direct correlation between swing speed and spin.

 

Let's use two of our club testers as a specific example. One is in his 50s, the other in his 60s. Like many amateurs (myself included) their individual swing paths are, to varying degrees, outside to in. Both play shots that move left to right (fade or slice). Despite those similarities, I fit them very differently, and it has nothing to do with swing speed.

 

The 60-something has a  STRONGLY negative angle of attack (-5° or lower) and has a tendency to close the face at impact. While our current launch monitor doesn't report Dynamic Loft, his low launch angle (often sub 9° with a 12.5°) tells us that his dynamic loft is significantly less than static loft.

 

Our 50-something, likely has a slightly negative AoA and has a tendency to leave the face open. Because of his swiping action (outside in/open face) we generally fit him for as little loft as possible.

 

Why would we fit a guy whose swing speed realistically tops out at 95MPH for a 8.5° driver?

 

His swing characteristics actually add a significant amount of DYNAMIC loft to the club at impact. As a result his launch angle is usually above 15°.

 

So to summarize quickly...one guy can launch a 12.5° driver at 9° or less while another can launch an 8.5° driver at 15° or more. Similar swings produce totally different launch characteristic, however; the functional result (high Spin Loft) is bad for both.

 

As I've touched on previously, Spin Loft is the difference between Angle of Attack and Dynamic Loft. The higher that number the more spin increases and ball speed suffers. Both examples I gave produce higher than desirable spin rates coupled with less than optimum ball speed.

 

Now lets talk about JBones. Based on what I can ascertain from what he's posted here and elsewhere, he has a positive angle of attack...not sure what dynamic loft he delivers, but for the sake of comparison, I'll throw out some numbers that will hopefully put this Spin Loft concept in perspective.

 

My 60-something: Angle of Attack -5° (and for the sake of the example) Dynamic Loft of 9°. That yields a Spin Loft of 14°.

JBones: (for the sake of example) Angle of Attack 5°, Dynamic Loft:14°.  That gives us a spin loft of 9°

 

Because of his narrower spin loft, on center strikes, JBones will produce a higher smash factor, create more ball speed, and less spin.

 

What if we lived in fantasy world where my 60-something can produce as much swing speed as JBones (let's call it 120 MPH). If nothing else changes (same AoA, same presentation of loft at impact), because JBones' impact conditions produce a narrower spin loft, he still hits the ball farther and spins it less...significantly so...even at the same swing speed.

 

Now lets' bring this back to the SLDR. 

 

In very simple terms, low/forward has two immediate consequences:

It brings the CG closer to the face which produces comparatively higher ball speeds (and this increase in ball speed helps offset any MOI tradeoffs)

While I will admit to being unsure of the physics of why from an engineering perspective, low/forward results in (loft to loft) less dynamic loft presented at impact. 

 

This decrease in DYNAMIC loft is why it's necessary to LOFT UP. What seems to be getting lost in some of this is that you can't draw direct correlations to other drivers. The rule of thumb is that for each degree of loft you add, spin rates increase by roughly 300 RPM. While I can't give you the number, with SLDR, spin rate does not increase by that same increment. Functionally this allows you to add more loft without adding as much spin as you would with other drivers.

 

So now let's touch on TaylorMade's 17/1700 claim. Is it ideal for everyone...on paper, probably. However, it's functionally impossible to get everyone that to level (at least with technology available today). There is absolutely NO WAY for me to get my 60-something -AoA guy to 17 degrees without his spin numbers exceeding anything close to desirable (I'd ballpark them at 5500+). 17/1700 is awesome...it is, as advertised, a recipe for distance. 17/5500, however, is a recipe for balloons. 

 

Think about this in terms of Angle of Attack and Spin Loft. -5 and 17°, that's a Spin Loft of 23°...frankly, that blows.

 

Loft Up is great, and it's valid for everyone, I believe. However, it's important to be aware of the limitations of physics as they relate to your swing. High loft and low spin is always desirable, however; angle of attack, because of the role it plays in Spin Loft (compression itself), is the limiting factor. Even with SLDR there is a point at which spin will exceed what's desirable, and when you start with a negative AoA, you'll reach that threshold well before 17°.

 

I know this is a lot, so if something is not clear, or you have any specific questions, fire away...I'll try to be comparatively brief in my responses. 

[HighFade]

Well said. You should start a website or something.

[Mr_Theoo]

Well said. You should start a website or something.

LOL!

[GolfSpy WD]

That's good stuff T. I learned a lot there. You should write a blog about this stuff so it doesn't get lost in page 12 of a thread we won't look at again within a few weeks. 

 

Also, LOL John.

[MarcKilgore]

Fascinating stuff - that tells me that I really should be focusing on learning to get a good positive AoA, and I'm going to need to be getting on a Trackman or something. I'm sure that's why I my tee shots were so high last year (just got back into the game after 15 years away) and I had so much spin when they were fitting me into a driver. The poor fitter just kept saying... you have so much spin - we have to do whatever we can to get the spin down.

 

A year later now... after lots of practice and lessons... flight of my ball is now 20 feet off the ground with much better contact instead of those drives that barely went 200 yards with crazy spin.    I'm thinking that I must have significantly reduced that Dynamic loft from my swing by reducing the amount of negative angle of attack, without really understanding that's what I was doing. 

[dru_]

Thanks T.  Well explained.

[dru_]

I think any of us that have ever been told we hit 'down on the ball' should translate that to 'holy crap dude, could you have a more negative AoA!!'