AMG how to shallow the club

[RickyBobby_PR]

I’ve talked about this in other threads either as part of discussion on the No turn cast videos from Monte, others from AMG that others posted or in general.

This video is pretty simple and one that breaks it down very easily. 3d data to support what the pros do.
 

 

[cnosil]

Topic of shallowing has been getting a lot of attention lately.   Shauheen Nakhjavani posted a video on shallowing which was reposted by Monte.  

https://www.instagram.com/p/CnVj8qeu_-8

 

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

It gets lots of attention because of how much teaching pros are using social media to put out content. Most of them are posting about issues they see in their lessons. The biggest issues are shallowing, ground reaction force and sequencing. All of which play into one another

[caryncgolfer]

I love the AMG guys.  I feel like they know what they are doing.  

[cksurfdude]

On 1/15/2023 at 5:48 PM, cnosil said:

Topic of shallowing has been getting a lot of attention lately.   Shauheen Nakhjavani posted a video on shallowing which was reposted by Monte.  

https://www.instagram.com/p/CnVj8qeu_-8

This is great! I can see why Monte reposted this - it directly parallels everything Monte is demonstrating in NTC (which has been extremely helpful to me).

Also where Shauheen demonstrated one of the "Don'ts" of a golfer bent forward yeah that's one of my many bad tendencies that an working to improve so this vid def speaks to me

The only small difference that I can see, from my pov, between this vs Monte is the way each articulates the "feel" they want the student to experience at the top of the backswing - where Shauheen likens it to a bicep curl and seems to point to the elbow, Monte talks about ulnar deviation (yeah not a good term for most people) in the wrist but then demonstrates .. what looks like to me ... effectively the same thing to get the hands moving on a better plane & path into/through impact.

[cksurfdude]

On 1/15/2023 at 3:10 PM, RickyBobby_PR said:

This video is pretty simple and one that breaks it down very easily. 3d data to support what the pros do.

Another great vid, thx.

"Amateur golfers work too hard!" (..laughing as he sheepishly raises hand.. )

I also liked their explanation of the potential shortcomings looking at still or video photography of a golf swing - something else Monte talked about in NTC.

[RickyBobby_PR]

6 minutes ago, cksurfdude said:

Another great vid, thx.

"Amateur golfers work too hard!" (..laughing as he sheepishly raises hand.. )

I also liked their explanation of the potential shortcomings looking at still or video photography of a golf swing - something else Monte talked about in NTC.

That was funny. 

One thing I like and Monte has touched on it in his different video series and posts on wrx is that these type of drills are exaggeration of the move and not really where one will be in the swing. 
 

I don’t recall if it’s in this video or if it’s part of the thread on wrx but there were some comments that it’s hard to see this move when watching videos because of how little the arm unfolds in a real swing whereas when you watch the video or in Monte’s ntc the drill has the arm unfold alot

[caryncgolfer]

How do these threads always go from “insert subject” to Monte’? 
 

it’s like I’m looking at my inbox and seeing southwest advertisements.  No southwest! No!

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, caryncgolfer said:

How do these threads always go from “insert subject” to Monte’? 
 

it’s like I’m looking at my inbox and seeing southwest advertisements.  No southwest! No!

Because Monte is a very well known and respected teacher and has worked with Shaun and Mike from AMG over the years but also Monte has been teaching this same concept for about a decade when he first posted a YouTube video on NTC.

Hes not the only one, could have easily referred to Dan Carraher who posted about to 8 or so years ago on wrx or Shauheen Nakhjavani who posted a recent video that btw monte commented on calling it good.

maybe instead of questioning why threads turn into references to Monte go check out what he teaches and talks about and why he is a successful teacher 

[Wildthing]

A more detailed explanation is here if any forum members have the time and effort to study (actually written several years ago ).

Downswing (perfectgolfswingreview.net)

Note what Dr Mann says:

I believe that the major biomechanical factor that causes clubshaft shallowing relative to the hand arc path during the early-mid downswing's active right arm adduction maneuver is a greater degree of right forearm supination, which allows the right palm to become more horizontal relative to the ground. To keep the left palm parallel to the right palm during this clubshaft shallowing time period, the left forearm has to passively pronate to a small degree.

[RickyBobby_PR]

I’m not a fan of linking to other forums but there is a nice ongoing discussion on wrx with several respected instructors explaining this concept

https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1915874-new-amg-shallowing-video-wow/

[Wildthing]

I've looked at the AMG Phase 1-3 drills but cannot see any shaft shallowing effect (have I missed something?).

 

 

 

[caryncgolfer]

21 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

I've looked at the AMG Phase 1-3 drills but cannot see any shaft shallowing effect (have I missed something?).

 

 

 

I wouldn’t look at their pros Vs ams.  That’s more about the contrast of pros Vs ams.  I’d look for videos of the 2 hosts talking specifically about shallowing.  Like standing around and chatting.

[Wildthing]

1 hour ago, caryncgolfer said:

I wouldn’t look at their pros Vs ams.  That’s more about the contrast of pros Vs ams.  I’d look for videos of the 2 hosts talking specifically about shallowing.  Like standing around and chatting.

These are specific drills to shallow correctly but I think they've missed out on some right forearm supination coupled with left forearm pronation to get the club back on plane as they drop the arms.  Maybe their definition of shallowing is not the same as my interpretation because I regard it as the instantaneous plane that the club shaft is moving on during the downswing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcOdBCrHKH0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eN-VKn77xHs&t=143s

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Wildthing

[RickyBobby_PR]

Monte and Jim Waldron have made some really good posts in the thread on wrx.

this recent one from Monte breaks things down pretty easy.

https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1915874-new-amg-shallowing-video-wow/?do=findComment&comment=24600851

[Wildthing]

On reflection, looking at Phase-2 images again , there does seem to be a slight shallowing , but that could be because of a small amount of right forearm supination .

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Wildthing

[Wildthing]

Seems like there is some dispute between golf teaching professionals regarding the AMG video (ie. Dr Kwon, Tyler Ferrell, Jon Sinclair , Michael Neff (Gears founder) ).

https://thesandtrap.com/forums/topic/117823-external-rotation-in-the-downswing-amg-shallowing-video/

It might be  a problem on how  each define 'transition' and 'downswing'.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Wildthing

[Wildthing]

Is there anyone who is an expert on how GEARS 3D GOLF measures ribcage side-bend?

I was looking at this AMG video and couldn't understand how the scratch-golfer from 16:27-16:29  could register ribcage side-bend when he was explicitly instructed not to do it.  All he attempted to do was pure rotation of his ribcage on a plane perpendicular to his forward spine axis tilt.

 

Here is the screen image where I've drawn a white line describing  the side-side axis through the T4 vertebrae (ie. bisecting the ribcage in the thoracic spine section). It makes an angle with the horizontal plane (blue line) and that is supposed to be a measure of ribcage side bend.  

 

Then compare this with the GEARS website showing how ribcage side bend is measured.

 

SIDE BEND (PELVIS, RIBCAGE, SPINE)

Side Bend is rotation around the front-back axis, i.e. the Z-Axis or the pink line in the diagram to the right. A positive value means that you are tilting your body to the right and a negative value means that you are tilting to the left. A cartwheel would be a good way to change this value.

These are rotations around the local axes in the body segment. The axes move with the body. The segments we report on are the pelvis, spine, and ribcage.

------------------

 

My question is how does GEARS differentiate between actual ribcage side bend and no ribcage side bend (ie . pure rotation on a tilted plane) ?  It will measure both as if there was ribcage-side bend?

Here is another example where I've drawn images of the spine with and without ribcage side bend to make my question clearer.

 

 

Shouldn't ribcage/thorax side-bend be measured relative to the lumbar spine as per this video below?  Otherwise , the 3D systems are defining measurements that do not mirror what is anatomically happening in a real golfers spine.

 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Wildthing

[Wildthing]

Here are the screen images of that AMG video comparing the scratch golfer to Sergio (Top left) , Rory (Bottom Left) , DJ (Top Right) , Lydia Ko (Bottom Right).   

The body positions of all are at impact and one can compare ribcage side bend between the scratch golfer and the tour pros.  They are saying from 18:13-18:26  that the pro's have more ribcage side-bend because of greater spine tilt and pelvis side-bend.

 

If you look at the spinal tilt differences between the scratch golfer and tour pros , it almost matches the differences in the ribcage side bend , therefore the difference in ribcage values could just be all about spine tilt , not necessarily extra ribcage side-bend like the bottom image below.

I can imagine that there is real anatomical ribcage-side bend happening in the tour pros  (like the bottom image below) compared to the scratch golfer but I don't think GEARS is measuring it in a way that mirrors what is actually anatomically happening in the golfers spine. 

 

Further , look at this Michael Neff (owner of GEARS)  video responding to literally hundreds of emails asking about how ribcage side bend is measured and how it affects shallowing ,etc.

 

He also says from P3-P4-P5  (ie. see  5:48 - 5:58 ) , that Rory's ribcage side bend doesn't change much and that seems to be true (look at images below)

 

But in the AMG video , Rory's ribcage side bend changes significantly from P4- P5  (see middle images below- P4 is top of backswing, P5 is lead arm horizontal in the downswing).

 

Maybe AMG and Mr Neff have recorded swings of Rory at different points in his career where he might have changed his swing mechanics,  but I wouldn't know which is the more recent.

 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Wildthing

[higherplane]

The AMG video is a pretty good description of 3-4 types of faults many of us have.  Currently there is snow on the ground so good time to work on this type of change.   Past Fall noticed at least one push drive in every 18 holes.  This leads to either getting a lucky lie or double.   Have to get rid of this come Spring.